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Linux performance still a let down on desktop.

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MrCrispy said:
If your position is that Linux is as easy to install/use on the desktop as Windows 10 for your average non technical user, I disagree and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
Click to expand...

Linux is not hard - It's simply different, it's not Windows. The average non techie user can install software via the software centre just fine, I know this based on first hand experience as my Mother is actually running Linux Mint MATE just fine.
 
ChadD said:
Gnome is stripped down for a reason... it is the main DE used in most commercial distros. Its simply easier to not add a ton of settings that need to be disabled. Doing it the other way around.

Extensions are super easy to install via https://extensions.gnome.org/ The first thing you want to do is install Gnome Tweak Tool... and you won't need to use the command line for anything. (many user friendly gnome distros (not RHEL or SUSE) will have the Tweak tool installed by default).

GTK is beloved with good reason. They don't use the same programming language one is C the other is C++ you will never get every developer everywhere to agree on one over the other. They also don't need to. Its not like every windows programmer is required to use visual basic right ? The number of GUI and other frameworks for both windows linux mac ect number way more then just 2. :) Python, Java, VB, .net, silverlight, Tensor, windows forms.... frameworks are numerous for all Operating systems... Linux is believe it or not unique in that the majority of Linux software use one of 2 main GUI frameworks. Finding one windows machine anywhere that has software only using one framework is impossible... and yes all those libraries are sitting in the w32 directory and all over the place frankly because MS has no universally respected file structure.

Do a bit of reading on GUI tool kits... Windows is the most fragmented OS for programmers in history. Linux has mostly narrowed things down to 2 very different tool kits, that use different programming languages... of course the end result is almost identical that is sort of the point. How they get their isn't the same just as a windows programmer creating a .net application and using windows form for the gui isn't going to be identical to another company that uses java and javafx for its gui. Both are going to need a bunch of library files and both are going to install em to run.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_widget_toolkits
Click to expand...

I read that extensions can break or stop working when the base framework is updated. I tried out Fedora (RH derivative) and it didn't have the tweak tool, I installed it. IMO basics like window decorations, notifications for removable drives, a taskbar etc should be built into the framework, that's a far cry for KDE's 10 million config options. Also the process to install extensions - install browser extension, then add a repo to enable them etc - should be built in IMO.

Its also quite ironic that one of the best toolkits/libs for Linux now is Mono which is basically .NET. I think the way things are going we're only a few years away from every single computing device just running HTML+JS for everything :)
 
MrCrispy said:
I read that extensions can break or stop working when the base framework is updated. I tried out Fedora (RH derivative) and it didn't have the tweak tool, I installed it. IMO basics like window decorations, notifications for removable drives, a taskbar etc should be built into the framework, that's a far cry for KDE's 10 million config options. Also the process to install extensions - install browser extension, then add a repo to enable them etc - should be built in IMO.

Its also quite ironic that one of the best toolkits/libs for Linux now is Mono which is basically .NET. I think the way things are going we're only a few years away from every single computing device just running HTML+JS for everything :)
Click to expand...

Well default options are basic sure.. still the options are there if you want to turn them on. MS has removed them from Windows and won't be allowing you to install software that will enable anything even close to extensions. I can make Gnome 3 look exactly like Windows 10 if I want... I can make it look like MacOS.... I can make it look like stock out of the box RHEL... or any of 1000s of possible configs. I don't believe there is anything wrong with no giving regular users thousands of options out of the box. (MS feels the exact same way). Gnome however gives power users unlimited ways to tweak and customise their systems. (if you have programming chops you can even make your own extensions)

As for mono being the best tool kit you can use in Linux.... ya ok if you think so. We can agree to completely disagree on that. Mono isn't even the best tool kit for windows development imo. :)

Well end users for sure will be doing more in their browsers. The back end software of course will still be created and running on things like Python, Scala, Ruby ect. Things like Google search, Youtube... are coded and run Python (as is a lot of Windows/Linux/Mac/Android desktop and mobile software, Python has been exploding the last few years and is the most taught computer language in C. Science classes these days), Scala and Ruby are very popular for other large sites like Facebook/twitter ect. HTML/php is just the front end stuff.
 
ChadD said:
Well default options are basic sure.. still the options are there if you want to turn them on. MS has removed them from Windows and won't be allowing you to install software that will enable anything even close to extensions. I can make Gnome 3 look exactly like Windows 10 if I want... I can make it look like MacOS.... I can make it look like stock out of the box RHEL... or any of 1000s of possible configs. I don't believe there is anything wrong with no giving regular users thousands of options out of the box. (MS feels the exact same way). Gnome however gives power users unlimited ways to tweak and customise their systems. (if you have programming chops you can even make your own extensions)

As for mono being the best tool kit you can use in Linux.... ya ok if you think so. We can agree to completely disagree on that. Mono isn't even the best tool kit for windows development imo. :)

Well end users for sure will be doing more in their browsers. The back end software of course will still be created and running on things like Python, Scala, Ruby ect. Things like Google search, Youtube... are coded and run Python (as is a lot of Windows/Linux/Mac/Android desktop and mobile software, Python has been exploding the last few years and is the most taught computer language in C. Science classes these days), Scala and Ruby are very popular for other large sites like Facebook/twitter ect. HTML/php is just the front end stuff.
Click to expand...

Bah! Get some MATE into ya! ;)
 
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ChadD said:
Any card using the older version of the nvidia unified drivers is ancient. Simple as that. The card you are running was the last of that generations (G80) respins. (edit... ok I missed the post that states the 9000s may have been yet another respin :) )Yes the tech on the silicon was designed at least 11 years ago.

Lets stop pretending its anything close to a current card.... you could buy one used for 40 bucks 6 years back. I wouldn't try an install any modern OS on that card today and blame the OS when I ran into issues.... it just makes zero logical sense. I have setup plenty of systems with Nvidia hardware... and honestly if I was installing a Linux system on a 10 year old card my LAST choice would be KDE, as I know its using a higher OpenGL version then a card of that vintage would be capable of using. Last time I installed KDE it was on a 750 ti (not an expensive card and not brand new) zero issues smooth as butter.

All your issues has proven as far as Linux goes.... is Nvidia doesn't support cards using their Older Unified drivers as well as they support them in windows. So there it is... if you are going to continue using that 9-10-11 year old card (whatever # we want to agree on) stick to windows, or use a different Linux DE, I believe some options where floated. Up to you really if you wish to stick with Windows go for it... when you try Linux again in a couple years and come back to post about how Linux is still terrible I hope I don't have to point out that your now using a 15 year old GPU. :)
Click to expand...

I thought the popular narrative for Linux was that older hardware worked better on it than Windows? I swear I have heard that here a thousand times.
 
auntjemima said:
I thought the popular narrative for Linux was that older hardware worked better on it than Windows? I swear I have heard that here a thousand times.
Click to expand...

The card works fine, I'm testing with one and no matter how hard I try I can't replicate any issue that degrades the desktop experience.

The only concern I can replicate is the lack of composting options under NV Control, in itself hardly an issue by any stretch of the imagination when you can just edit xorg.conf if you encounter tearing - I've yet to encounter any tearing on this card and I'm trying hard to fault it.

I also cannot replicate any desktop corruption, the experience with Nouveau and NVIDIA drivers has been absolutely faultless.

But I just make shit up, don't I auntjemima?
 
BulletDust said:
The card works fine, I'm testing with one and no matter how hard I try I can't replicate any issue that degrades the desktop experience.

The only concern I can replicate is the lack of composting options under NV Control, in itself hardly an issue by any stretch of the imagination when you can just edit xorg.conf if you encounter tearing - I've yet to encounter any tearing on this card and I'm trying hard to fault it.

But I just make shit up don't I auntjemima?
Click to expand...

In this instance I actually believe you. Nvidia has always been great at supporting it's old cards. I have Windows 10 on my kids PC and that thing has some ass backwards Acer thing I grabbed for $100 at a pawn shop years ago with an 8200LE card. Even with that Nvidia still provided a driver and I see no issues.

It's pretty rare to find an Nvidia related issue these days.
 
I guess this is about Linux though so to satisfy those who might reply, I have also had Linux on this PC and while my family didn't like the change, the video card worked fine and installed without issue.
 
auntjemima said:
It's pretty rare to find an Nvidia related issue these days.
Click to expand...

Well according to members on these forums Nvidia under Linux is a mess. I've never had an issue with Nvidia hardware/drivers under Linux, if people don't believe that I don't care.

I will test this card under Kbuntu, I'm expecting a conflict with KWin as apparently is does it's own form of tearing reduction that conflicts with Nvidia's composition settings resulting in abnormally high CPU usage and rendering issues. However, based around what I'm seeing so far it'll probably install and run just fine out the box.

Triple booting three distro's so far and each distro installed in ~50mins on an old HDD without a single issue, straight out of the box.

Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt the easiest OS installs I've performed in a long time right up to usable with PDF readers, office suites, media players, burning software, ISO software, browsers, email clients, etc - Basically everything the average user wants/needs in 50 mins or less.

I have provided screenshots, I have provided photo's, I have provided links and I have even provided video's proving myself every step of the way in this thread - Going as far as to dig up an old PC and an almost identical card as a test unit on the bench in the workshop. But apparently, due to no reason other than the fact I predominantly use Linux, I'm just making it all up - Odd logic if I ever heard it.
 
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lol, well, I won't touch on all those subjects, I will say that installing Linux is easy and also provides a lot of the additional software, the average person has to then go download themselves, right out of the box. I found the majority of my time in Linux was tweaking and hardware issues. Otherwise it's usable.
 
While the screen tearing issue garnered the most attention by way of attacking me for using old HW, it was not the issue that caused me the most concern, that was software stability across several Distros: Elementary, Mint and Kubuntu.

I decided to triple boot with Win7/Win10/Kubuntu, so I reinstalled Kubuntu after Win10 to set up Grub. I also wanted to see if it was any better this time, while paying closer attention. Last time noticed Software Center (discover) was unreliable.

So this time, I went straight to the driver manager and installed the NVidia 340 Closed Source drivers.

Then I went to Software Center to update and... Nope. Software center just crashed endlessly. Would not launch at all.

Ok, back to Google. Lots of complaints about Software Center being crap and suggesting to replace it with something else, statement that command line update + upgrade will often fix it. So I do that...

So after that completes. I decide a reboot would be a good idea. I click the Reboot button. It crashes. Yep. The reboot/shutdown buttons no longer work and crash out.

So I issue "shutdown -r" from command line (thankfully terminals don't crash).

This is the kind of thing that causes me the most concern. Configuration issues that mainly affect cosmetics (like screen tearing) are one thing, but they don't shake confidence in an OS, like applications crashing repeatedly. Worse still, this isn't some random application I installed. They are OS components.

I had variations of this in most of the Distros I tried recently. To me it paints the overwhelming sense of Linux fragility. Something that is a death note for an OS IMO.
 
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BulletDust said:
Good for you! Looks like there's two individuals with the same narative!

Anyway, I'm interested in working out the issue at hand and have no desire to watch 3D Bluray on my desktop PC of all things. In fact I'm not interested in the failure that was 3D Bluray - Period.
Click to expand...

You're always telling people they don't know what they are doing with Linux. When was the last time you had any experience with 3D Vision? Ok you don't care about it and that's fine but you don't know what you're talking about either. I've been using it for 7 years and initially things could be finicky but it's been solid for years now, at least with current versions of PowerDVD. And how has 3D Blu-ray failed? everything that's 3D in theaters which is all of the action movies these days comes out on 3D BD.
 
Snowdog said:
I had variations of this in most of the Distros I tried recently. To me it paints the overwhelming sense of Linux fragility. Something that is a death note for an OS IMO.
Click to expand...

To me it sounds like bad hardware is causing a problem especially considering the age of the system and components. I tested out probably 5-6 different distros not too long back on the rig in my sig and didn't run into any "fragility issues". In my experience, someone with as many issues as you're having tends to point to dying hardware, not a software issue.
 
SmokeRngs said:
To me it sounds like bad hardware is causing a problem especially considering the age of the system and components. I tested out probably 5-6 different distros not too long back on the rig in my sig and didn't run into any "fragility issues". In my experience, someone with as many issues as you're having tends to point to dying hardware, not a software issue.
Click to expand...

This particular issue cleared up after update, upgrade, reboot, as my google search results suggested.

That says software issue, loud and clear.
 
heatlesssun said:
You're always telling people they don't know what they are doing with Linux. When was the last time you had any experience with 3D Vision? Ok you don't care about it and that's fine but you don't know what you're talking about either. I've been using it for 7 years and initially things could be finicky but it's been solid for years now, at least with current versions of PowerDVD. And how has 3D Blu-ray failed? everything that's 3D in theaters which is all of the action movies these days comes out on 3D BD.
Click to expand...

It Failed when 3D TVs failed. Very few people bought into 3D in their living rooms, even fewer into 3D computer screens.
https://www.cnet.com/news/shambling-corpse-of-3d-tv-finally-falls-down-dead/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_television#The_Fall_of_3D_Television

Over the next year or two yes 3D blu ray releases are going to slow if not stop completely.

3D in the home is dead. Unless some company comes up with some way to make it happen that doesn't require glasses.... not to even mention that up to 30% of people can't properly see 3D images.
 
Snowdog said:
This particular issue cleared up after update, upgrade, reboot, as my google search results suggested.

That says software issue, loud and clear.
Click to expand...

I find it interesting how literally everyone but Heatlesssun and MrCrispy is telling you that your issue is very isolated, with many describing situations where they installed many Linux distro's themselves with no issues whatsoever, and yet according to you I'm just lying even though I've provided countless forms of evidence backing up my claims - Do you realise how backwards this logic is?

I'm currently running Mint on a PC in a worse state than your own with no issue of which I've got plenty of screenshots, looks like next on the list may be Elementary and Kbuntu. Installing an OS only to find you have issues until updates are installed is in no way uncommon under all operating systems from time to time depending on your hardware configuration - Although according to your flawed logic putting perspective on the situation is just a big no go, Gawd help us if perspective worked against your argument that desktop Linux is just crap.

Are you running LTS releases?

Posted on a Linux desktop PC that's anything but crap, in fact it's given me less issues than my Windows PC. But I guess I must be making that up.
 
Guess what I'm doing today:

l57I6P5.png
 
Snowdog said:
Coming up with new excuses?

First my HW was too old, now my distros were too new?
Click to expand...

You've been using non LTS releases! Interesting.

If you want me to test a cutting edge release I'm happy to do so, I'm going to test the LTS release first as a baseline, as when you perform diagnosis that's what you do as opposed to simply blaming the OS as a whole - Which would be rather silly.

Furthermore, excuses aren't substantiated with evidence my friend. Just listen to the resentful negativity! ;)

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
 
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And so far, this comparable card I have here hasn't presented me with a cracker of a driver issue using Nvidia-340. No corruption of the desktop, no tearing and whatever else you were complaining about.
 
BulletDust said:
Because they're not LTS, do you know what LTS is?

If you have issues under non LTS releases you can't blame the developer.
Click to expand...

Do you always look for reasons to insult/blame others? Its perfectly ok for users to choose stable release over LTS (9mo vs 2yr update cycle) and in fact preferred for fixes and hw support. This isn't running nightly's. And you can have bugs in LTS releases as well. Stable != cutting edge, stop the FUD.
 
MrCrispy said:
Do you always look for reasons to insult/blame others? Its perfectly ok for users to choose stable release over LTS (9mo vs 2yr update cycle) and in fact preferred for fixes and hw support. This isn't running nightly's. And you can have bugs in LTS releases as well. Stable != cutting edge, stop the FUD.
Click to expand...

Actually I'm running multiple distro's out in the cold workshop trying to get an overview as to these issues you're all complaining about using similar hardware that I dug up out of my junk pile! What part of that insinuates that I'm blaming the user for these issues?

I blamed you for your issues as they were your fault and you know it! Having said that I also did my best to assist you!

How about you jump off your little bandwagon and if the only constructive criticism you can can come up with is to attack me than go post in another thread, as you aren't contributing anything meaningful to this one!

If you want to believe that non LTS releases are flagged as stable, be my guest.
 
BulletDust said:
And so far, this comparable card I have here hasn't presented me with a cracker of a driver issue using Nvidia-340. No corruption of the desktop, no tearing and whatever else you were complaining about.
Click to expand...
That's great. Did you do a clean install with KDE neon or did you just install the Nvidia 340 drivers on the current installation? Did you verify that the Xorg.conf did not already have the "ForceCompositionPipeline" in it?

This March 2017 thread in the KDE Forum addresses the screen tearing issue. The solution recommended was to add "Option "metamodes" "nvidia-auto-select +0+0 { ForceCompositionPipeline = On }" in the Screen section of Xorg.conf. The same solution was offered in this May 2016 thread at gamingonlinux.com. This [url=https://www.cmscritic.com/how-to-fix-nvidia-screen-tearing-in-xfce-mate-kde-lxde-and-others/]article from October 2016 at cmscritic.com provides the same solution for various desktop environments and even describes how to apply the fix if your Ubuntu distro does not have a Xorg.conf. Steam even has a guide for Linux Mint

These are just 3 from a Duckduckgo.com search on "Linux screen tearing" with 4 pages. The same search on Google returns 97,200 hits, but who knows how many are about screen tearing in Linux?

It seems that the problem Snowdog experienced with screen tearing may be more prevalent than "isolated".[/url]
 
Bullet, you're choosing what part to bold, even though the rest of the sentence kills the point you were trying to make.

You can DEPEND on it to be updated regularly. That doesn't mean you can DEPEND on it to be stable.

I am running Ubuntu LTS now, and the last 2 times I updated the kernel I had issues. LTS doesn't mean stable any more than 17 that I can manually update just as often as LTS.
 
auntjemima said:
Bullet, you're choosing what part to bold, even though the rest of the sentence kills the point you were trying to make.

You can DEPEND on it to be updated regularly. That doesn't mean you can DEPEND on it to be stable.

I am running Ubuntu LTS now, and the last 2 times I updated the kernel I had issues. LTS doesn't mean stable any more than 17 that I can manually update just as often as LTS.
Click to expand...

Updating the kernel on packaged distro's is always one of those situations where you're on your own, if it breaks you get to keep the hot oily parts. The recommendation on packaged distro's is to always use the current kernel supplied by the developer, even on LTS builds as kernel regressions are in no way uncommon.

Now tell me I'm exaggerating or lying.
 
BulletDust said:
Updating the kernel on packaged distro's is always one of those situations where you're on your own, if it breaks you get to keep the hot oily parts. The recommendation on packaged distro's is to always use the current kernel supplied by the developer, even on LTS builds as kernel regressions are in no way uncommon.

Now tell me I'm exaggerating or lying.
Click to expand...

I can't. As a standard user I would expect to install all updates under update manager. That's the purpose of the manager, no? If Kernel updates as such a hit or miss ordeal, why package them in the exact menu as drivers and applications?

As an addition to my last post: I expected Windows to be updated regularly and be stable, as I do Linux. Unfortunately neither of these OS's are as reliable as I would like in that department.
 
BulletDust said:
You've been using non LTS releases! Interesting.

If you want me to test a cutting edge release I'm happy to do so, I'm going to test the LTS release first as a baseline, as when you perform diagnosis that's what you do as opposed to simply blaming the OS as a whole - Which would be rather silly.

Furthermore, excuses aren't substantiated with evidence my friend. Just listen to the resentful negativity! ;)

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
Click to expand...


It's hilarious how you always lay on the condescension, like you are the only one who knows anything about Linux.

I am not setting up mission critical servers here. If I was I would use an LTS release, or better yet I would go with CentOS which is kind of the king of LTS. In fact, I already did this at work when setting up a LAMP server. I have great respect for Linux in the server space.

Also it's not like I was choosing a nightly build.
Visit http://www.kubuntu.org

Giant banner for 17.04 and nothing else on the front page. This is their stable snapshot mainstream build. That is what I went with.

I don't want to be using older SW at home, and LTS is no guarantee of a good desktop experience. We were using RHEL at work for desktop machines and it was nearly the worse Linux I have ever used. It made Linux haters of just about everyone at work.
 
Preliminary findings regarding Kbuntu using the 9600GT is that using Nouveau screen corruption at times is evident as well as tearing when moving windows quickly around the desktop, scrolling however was fine and stability was fine.

I fired up Discover and yep, nothing visible. I checked for updates, as expected on a fresh install tonnes were available. I updated the OS and rebooted, Discover worked fine and I downloaded and installed Chromium without issue - No crashing evident on a system that's half dead. Personally I cannot see an issue with this and it's not uncommon for there to be issues on a fresh install regarding any OS, as long as the updating process is simple and the updates rectify the problem I'm happy - Obviously certain individuals are going to disagree with this and I leave it to the bulk of [H] users to judge their opinion on that.

I then installed the Nvidia-340 drivers and rebooted, immediately graphical corruption was gone. I opened Nvidia Settings and clicked 'Advanced', composition settings were immediately visible. After enabling force composition pipeline and rebooting for good measure just in case, I retested for tearing while moving windows quickly on the desktop, no issue found - Windows moved around the desktop in a fluid fashion with no corruption whatsoever. Checked for scrolling issues using Firefox and the usual [H] forums test, no tearing evident at all.

At this point the distro appears more than stable to me, however I'm still testing and doing my best to push things as hard as I can in an attempt to find an issue. I also have a GT710 here to swap into the machine in the event that I do see issues in an attempt to rule out an older 9600GT. However, at this stage the 9600GT is holding up quite well considering how demanding the KDE DE really is - It's probably one of the most demanding DE's out there.
 
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auntjemima said:
I can't. As a standard user I would expect to install all updates under update manager. That's the purpose of the manager, no? If Kernel updates as such a hit or miss ordeal, why package them in the exact menu as drivers and applications?

As an addition to my last post: I expected Windows to be updated regularly and be stable, as I do Linux. Unfortunately neither of these OS's are as reliable as I would like in that department.
Click to expand...

I have never once experienced any issue whatsoever as a result of standard updates via the update manager. Not discrediting your experiences, but you have to remember that an OS has to run on a plethora of differing hardware configurations and to put things into perspective the Windows updating process seems to be suffering from far more issues than the Linux updating process.

At least my narrative is consistent?
 
BulletDust said:
Mate,

I'm gonna say this once, loose the bullshit attitude or I get the mods involved. Out of everyone here I'm trying to work through this issue and i do not appreciate the constant snide remarks and personal attacks. Grow up and leave the attitude at the door.
Click to expand...

You attack just about everyone who disagrees with you, and I point out your condescending attitude and you are going involve the mods.

Go ahead. :D
 
BulletDust said:
I have never once experienced any issue whatsoever as a result of standard updates via the update manager. Not discrediting your experiences, but you have to remember that an OS has to run on a plethora of differing hardware configurations and to put things into perspective the Windows updating process seems to be suffering from far more issues than the Linux updating process.

At least my narrative is consistent?
Click to expand...

I refered specifically to kernel updates via the update manager. Why add in those "you're on your own" updates in the manager? Your standard user will run all the updates offered and won't understand what's going on when it doesn't work.
 
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ChadD said:
Over the next year or two yes 3D blu ray releases are going to slow if not stop completely.
Click to expand...

I tend to doubt that because of VR and at least in the US 3D releases for the big action titles draw in a large percentage of ticket sales.
 
auntjemima said:
I refered specifically to kernel updates via the update manager. Why add in those "you're on your own" updates in the manager? Your standard use will run all the updates offered and won't understand what's going on when it doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Auntjemima, you stated kernel updating, I assumed you were talking about kernels not supported by the developer for your distro as kernel issues resulting from the updater contained within your distro are rare and almost unheard of.

There is more than one way to update a kernel under Linux, you're not limited to the distro's updating process.
 
BulletDust said:
Auntjemima, you stated kernel updating, I assumed you were talking about kernels not supported by the developer for your distro as kernel issues resulting from the updater contained within your distro are rare and almost unheard of.

There is more than one way to update a kernel under Linux, you're not limited to the distro's updating process.
Click to expand...

Why can't you just answer the question?

I can't make it any simpler. Why add kernel updates into the Update Manager when they aren't reliable and cause problems? Why add them side by side with Program and Driver updates?
 
Chuklr said:
That's great. Did you do a clean install with KDE neon or did you just install the Nvidia 340 drivers on the current installation? Did you verify that the Xorg.conf did not already have the "ForceCompositionPipeline" in it?
Click to expand...

What are you talking about?

I showed a screenshot highlighting myself downloading the Kbuntu ISO and you assume I'm using some distro that I installed earlier?!

The install was, naturally, a clean install and xorg.conf is not present until changes are made in NV Settings. So I can assure you, force Composition Pipeline was not enabled. If it was enabled do you think I'd see the reported improvement upon enabling it?
 
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