Linux performance still a let down on desktop.

[Snowdog]

I tend to doubt that because of VR and at least in the US 3D releases for the big action titles draw in a large percentage of ticket sales.

But they may stop mastering 3D blu rays, since they essentially no longer make new 3D TVs to view them on. So the 3D Blu Rays are a small and likely dwindling market.

 

[BulletDust]

Why can't you just answer the question?

I can't make it any simpler. Why add kernel updates into the Update Manager when they aren't reliable and cause problems? Why add them side by side with Program and Driver updates?

I can't comment as I've never had a problem Auntjemima.

Right now I'm performing testing under a plethora of differing distro's on an old, broken machine and I've still encountered no kernel updating issues. What else can I do to induce this phenomenon?

If you don't want kernel updates, untick them.

 

[auntjemima]

I can't comment as I've never had a problem Auntjemima.

You have said many times that the Update Manager is what sets Linux apart from Windows.

In this thread you say "oh gosh, careful with those kernel updates, they are iffy and you're on your own".

Then when asked why are they offered in the coveted Updated Manager, along side generic updates, you come up with that answer?

Ready for mainstream? Not a fucking chance.

 

[ChadD]

I tend to doubt that because of VR and at least in the US 3D releases for the big action titles draw in a large percentage of ticket sales.

Home 3D is dead... completely heatle its not even a debatable position. No one makes the hardware for it anymore... they sell software for now sure people still own a few 3D sets. Its sort of like Cassette tapes... they still sold them for a few years after the end of hardware sales. VR isn't going to save 3D movie content... that is just silly.

 

[heatlesssun]

But they may stop mastering 3D blu rays, since they essentially no longer make new 3D TVs to view them on. So the 3D Blu Rays are a small and likely dwindling market.

But if you've already developed the content in 3D it costs nothing to press the disc and throw it into a bundle that can draw more money. And I do think VR is going to drive more demand for 3D content, just look at the emergence of 3D, 360 degree, VR cameras.

 

[ChadD]

Why can't you just answer the question?

I can't make it any simpler. Why add kernel updates into the Update Manager when they aren't reliable and cause problems? Why add them side by side with Program and Driver updates?

Wait... What distro has kernel updates in its software/package manager, turned on by default ? I get a few will allow you to update kernels easy mode like, still are they not unticked by default in kubuntu ?

I have seen plenty of distros that have one click kernel updates with a ton of warnings, explaining what it is to update a kernel and why you may want to stick with the latest LTS. I haven't had an issue updating a kernel on a system in years.

 

[Chuklr]

What are you talking about?

I showed a screenshot highlighting myself downloading the Kbuntu ISO and you assume I'm using some distro that I installed earlier?!

The install was, naturally, a clean install and xorg.conf is not present until changes are made in NV Settings. So I can assure you, force Composition Pipeline was not enabled. If it was enabled do you think I'd see the reported improvement upon enabling it?

Thanks I just wanted to be sure what your methodology was for your testing. I was assuming nothing I just wanted some clarification in case the next distro I try has the screen tearing issue. Thanks for your response.

 

[BulletDust]

Thanks I just wanted to be sure what your methodology was for your testing. I was assuming nothing I just wanted some clarification in case the next distro I try has the screen tearing issue. Thanks for your response.

Right...

OK then?

 

[BulletDust]

Wait... What distro has kernel updates in its software/package manager, turned on by default ? I get a few will allow you to update kernels easy mode like, still are they not unticked by default in kubuntu ?

I have seen plenty of distros that have one click kernel updates with a ton of warnings, explaining what it is to update a kernel and why you may want to stick with the latest LTS. I haven't had an issue updating a kernel on a system in years.

Not meaning to discredit his opinion, but I honestly can't work out just what his talking about?

 

[BulletDust]

Home 3D is dead... completely heatle its not even a debatable position. No one makes the hardware for it anymore... they sell software for now sure people still own a few 3D sets. Its sort of like Cassette tapes... they still sold them for a few years after the end of hardware sales. VR isn't going to save 3D movie content... that is just silly.

I loved making up mixed cassette tapes! Applying Dolby C HX Pro and getting the record levels and bias spot on on quality tape, it was a fine art!

Don't knock good 'ol cassettes!

 

[FrgMstr]

I am about to start banking folks. So get on topic and address the post, not the poster.

 

[BulletDust]

Running Kbuntu on two monitors now in an attempt to load up this 9600GT, it has to be emphasised that force composition pipeline has to be enabled for each individual monitor or tearing will result under the Nvidia-340 drivers.

You know I have to say that so far I'm really liking Kbuntu, a beautiful DE and one to definitely consider for any transitioning Windows 10 users. So far this little 9600GT running the proprietary drivers is holding up nicely, especially considering the rest of the PC with it's 2GB ram limitation is so crippled.

I need to remap the keys for [ctrl] + [alt] + [T] to bring up the terminal though.

 

[grtitan]

Linux folks love to however generally state without specifics that Linux has better hardware compatibility that Windows

Sometimes, it is true though.

Someone asked me to reinstall windows 7 on a dell latitude 6420 and provided a dell restore cd.

Well, the amazing thing is, the damn dell image didn't include any drivers, no network, no wifi, nothing!

Had to track all the damn drivers at dell and then, a million windows updates. Trust me, not a fun experience.

They do have an utility that helps with these situations, but i still have crap in device manager with no drivers.

Just for shit and giggles, i installed antergos, a couple of clicks and had a working system.

So yes, sometimes, linux is better than windows, compatibility wise.

 

[grtitan]

Starting with Vista, the GPU accelerated UI significantly helped Windows perform better when it comes to UI movement. I imagine a Linux distro with a similar interface would benefit the same way.

Oh, we did and then, ended with stuff like this:

 

[BulletDust]

Still playing with Kbuntu. No major issues to report with the exception that this 9600GT is more than capable of full hardware acceleration rendering the desktop, it's the CPU that seems to be maxing out - Having said that I still find the system more than usable even considering the demanding KDE WM.

A few shots:

Downloaded the 64 bit .deb installer of Google Chrome, QApt package installer picked it up and the software installed via the GUI no problems whatsoever even on a crippled PC with next to no ram:

A screenshot highlighting just how hard this little dual core Athlon 5600+ is working under KDE:

And last of all a GPU utilisation screenshot, moving and opening a lot of Windows naturally you see GPU utilisation spike in relation to what's happening on the display, I've yet to see utilisation go over 25%:

In summary, even on this crippled system I cannot see any issue that I could flag as a major problem with an out of the box install, nvidia drivers, force composition pipeline enabled and the usual updates applied. You can update via the inbuilt Update Manager or by simply opening a terminal and typing 'sudo apt upgrade' without the quotes and entering the sudo password.

If anyone has any requests regarding this install I'm only to happy to oblige to the best of this system's ability.

 

[B00nie]

But they may stop mastering 3D blu rays, since they essentially no longer make new 3D TVs to view them on. So the 3D Blu Rays are a small and likely dwindling market.

There are a plethora of 3D projectors on the market however. 3D is for a more high end home theater.

 

[auntjemima]

Running Kbuntu on two monitors now in an attempt to load up this 9600GT, it has to be emphasised that force composition pipeline has to be enabled for each individual monitor or tearing will result under the Nvidia-340 drivers.

You know I have to say that so far I'm really liking Kbuntu, a beautiful DE and one to definitely consider for any transitioning Windows 10 users. So far this little 9600GT running the proprietary drivers is holding up nicely, especially considering the rest of the PC with it's 2GB ram limitation is so crippled.

I need to remap the keys for [ctrl] + [alt] + [T] to bring up the terminal though.

I had the same issue with the terminal when I installed MATE. There was no default program selected for the terminal. Went to default and selected the one and only option and done.

 

[Snowdog]

In summary, even on this crippled system I cannot see any issue that I could flag as a major problem with an out of the box install, nvidia drivers, force composition pipeline enabled and the usual updates applied. You can update via the inbuilt Update Manager or by simply opening a terminal and typing 'sudo apt upgrade' without the quotes and entering the sudo password.

This doesn't alter or disprove what went wrong with Linux on my system. We all know we need to forceCompositionPipeline on now. Something that occurred to no one initially.

I have also provided screen shots of Software center crashing, and how the NVidia drivers appear on my system, and they do not have the ForceCompositionPipeline option. Making it extra difficult to get working.

The reality is that Linux still presents more driver issues, particularly around GPUs than you would face in Windows. Much like it ever was.

And odd flaky issues like whatever caused software center to crash before an update.

 

[grtitan]

This doesn't alter or disprove what went wrong with Linux on my system. We all know we need to forceCompositionPipeline on now. Something that occurred to no one initially.

I have also provided screen shots of Software center crashing, and how the NVidia drivers appear on my system, and they do not have the ForceCompositionPipeline option. Making it extra difficult to get working.

The reality is that Linux still presents more driver issues, particularly around GPUs than you would face in Windows. Much like it ever was.

And odd flaky issues like whatever caused software center to crash before an update.

The man really tried to replicate the issue you experienced, tried to help and just provided his conclusion due to his own tests.

You want odd shit happening after an update?

Yesterday, i delivered a freshly imaged windows 10 machine, which crapped out after an update and i had to reset the damn thing and start from zero, 4 hours of work wasted. Yet, all i can say is, this type of crap just happens, fix it and move along.

Yet you insist in repeating the same thing over and over ( linux sux, windows rulez) so then, install windows, forget linux, be happy and go on with your life.

 

[Snowdog]

The man really tried to replicate the issue you experienced, tried to help and just provided his conclusion due to his own tests.

An attempt to replicate would use the same software. I made it clear pages ago that it was Kubuntu 17 that I was running, he is using Kubuntu 16.

You want odd shit happening after an update?

Maybe, if this was a Windows thread, I would want to listen to your Windows woes. As is, it seems like an all to common deflection method at this point.

Also if anyone wants to check for screen tearing, scrolling in a web browser won't cut it.
Here is a good Tearing test video:


It has failed out of the box on every Linux Distro I have tried so far. Add Ubuntu Gnome 17, and CentOS 7 to the growing list.

Far from isolated, I expect just about every Linux install a Nvidia GPU starts out with screen tearing and has it until they do more interventions.

Things may be better in AMD land. I can't check that.

 

[B00nie]

I'll take a bit of screen tearing over Microsoft butt fucking me any time.

 

[grtitan]

Maybe, if this was a Windows thread, I would want to listen to your Windows woes. As is, it seems like an all to common deflection method at this point.

Nope, no deflection, it is relevant, since you keep comparing and complaining that no linux distro can't have this working properly, but windows can.

If the issues is the vid card or the version of linux, then change them.

Im pretty sure you can get a newer gpu very cheap and if the linux version is the problem, wipe and install a newer one.

Anyways, enough of this back and forth nonsense.

 

[Snowdog]

If the issues is the vid card or the version of linux, then change them.

I see no evidence that a newer NVidia GPU would be that much different. Either way, out of the box you have to get the NVidia driver installed and configured to eliminate screen tearing. That is a relative dawdle in Ubuntu distros, look at the pain it is in CentOS:

https://linuxconfig.org/nvidia-geforce-driver-installation-on-centos-7-linux-64-bit

The point is that some people are painting Linux as being easy to install/config.

It still really isn't.

 

[ChadD]

I see no evidence that a newer NVidia GPU would be that much different. Either way, out of the box you have to get the NVidia driver installed and configured to eliminate screen tearing. That is a relative dawdle in Ubuntu distros, look at the pain it is in CentOS:

https://linuxconfig.org/nvidia-geforce-driver-installation-on-centos-7-linux-64-bit

The point is that some people are painting Linux as being easy to install/config.

It still really isn't.

So your proof that it isn't ready is to link the install instructions for a commercial version of linux not in anyway aimed at joe average.

I think others have replicated your install and show most of the issues your talking about are local to you. I have run Nvidia hardware for a long while now and have not seen the issues you describe.

You come in here and say don't talk about Windows its not relevant then start a thread in the windows forum where you clearly make a bunch of parallels between your win 10 and linux installs.

If you feel that Linux isn't ready your entitled to believe so. I don't agree with you nor do a great number of others. Its no more difficult to install a distro aimed at regular users then it is to install windows. You complain about having to tweak ANYTHING after installing Linux... and yet you post about the 1001 things you had to change install tweak or disable when you installed Win10. Based on that I think its pretty obvious to most that your simply looking for things to hate. Things like RHEL(cent) and SLSE are not aimed at joe average who are going to have issues understanding how to properly install a GPU driver if they want to use it.

We get it you tried installing a current version of kunbuntu and had issues... most of which I would put on your 10 year old video card more then anything. However it seems you where offered solutions to solve your issues... and decided instead that you aren't willing to tweak ANYTHING in Linux. It must install 100% ready and perfect on every one of the possible millions of hardware configs.... to be in the same league as Windows which you yourself detailed 2-3 hours of tweaks installs and updates for it to be installed in your eyes.

Sorry you where let down... but it seems you came away exactly as you planned to from the start.

 

[grtitan]

No only that, when i mentioned my issues with windows that funny enough, happened in the last couple of days, they are not relevant, even though, both examples are way, way worse than what he experienced with linux.

Honestly, he is trolling at this point.

 

[Snowdog]

So your proof that it isn't ready is to link the install instructions for a commercial version of linux not in anyway aimed at joe average.

My point was driver installs are a hassle in many Distros.

I wanted to try something different than Ubuntu based Distros, which behave similarly, so I briefly had OpenSuse installed and gave up when I saw this:
http://users.suse.com/~sndirsch/nvidia-installer-HOWTO.html
That is 10 dense screen pages of instructions.

Right now I have CentOS 7 installed and it's install is similarly daunting.

I think others have replicated your install and show most of the issues your talking about are local to you. I have run Nvidia hardware for a long while now and have not seen the issues you describe.

Not really, many of my issues were replicated. They can be solved easier, because this deep into the thread everyone knows NVidia proprietary drivers are needed, and that you need to enable "ForceCompositionPipeline".

You come in here and say don't talk about Windows its not relevant then start a thread in the windows forum where you clearly make a bunch of parallels between your win 10 and linux installs.

Note really, I merely mention that a quote (yours I believe) was the inspiration for me testing Windows 10. After that I only discuss Windows 10 and I only compare it to Windows 7 my long time favorite OS. No comparisons to Linux are made.

We get it you tried installing a current version of kunbuntu and had issues... most of which I would put on your 10 year old video card more then anything. However it seems you where offered solutions to solve your issues... and decided instead that you aren't willing to tweak ANYTHING in Linux.

This is untrue. I discovered the proper solution to to NVidia screen tearing and performance issue, and posted it in message #34 ( "force composition pipeline"). No one offered this as a solution before I discovered and posted about it.

But my driver GUI does not present the option to enable this feature. It wasn't until post #91 that anyone posted how to deal with this on a card with no GUI option, and it was me again that discovered how and posted it.

So far from not wanting to use offered solutions, and an unwillingness to tweak. I spent hours over a couple of days plugging away until I solved that particular issue.

 

[BulletDust]

I'm still compiling evidence on how easy Linux is to install, so far the only issue encountered was a small amount of graphical corruption under Kbuntu using the Nouveau driver, once the drivers were updated this 9600GT handled Kbuntu just fine. Kbuntu is honestly so damn good that I'm struggling not to distro hop on my main PC, IMO it's what Windows 10 should have been in relation to a UI - Navigating Kbuntu is smooth and fluid and never gave me a hint of trouble using a broken PC with only 2GB of functioning ram across two monitors.

I consider a major installation issue to be a black screen or shell on boot indicating a complete failure of the graphics drivers - So far I haven't encountered anything that could in any way be related to such a showstopper at all, OS installation honestly couldn't be any more straight forward, far easier than digging up drivers for a fresh install of Windows 7.

I don't see an issue with enabling force desktop composition, I tweak graphics settings under Windows all the time and what I'm finding as a result of my testing is that force desktop composition most certainly does not need to be enabled under every distro in order to eliminate tearing, meaning that tearing is not evident under every distro out of the box, obviously due to the WM used and hardware configuration.

Linux Mint Cinnamon never presented me with an issue on the nugget test PC using a 9600, however I have seen the graphical issues under Mint before - They are easily fixed by disabling windows composition with no ill effects whatsoever, obviously an issue that doesn't affect every system as evidenced in the fact that it's on the top of Distro Watch. Logic dictates that the issue cannot be widespread by any stretch of the imagination if millions of people are downloading and using it just fine.

Now on to testing Kbuntu 17.04, I have to say that I'm not really expecting any issues...

 

[BulletDust]

OpenSUSE is hardly a beginners distro, if you're going to dig dirt you need to maintain some form of reality. Next thing you know you'll be battling Gentoo in order to try and dig dirt.

 

[BulletDust]

Must...Resist....Installing....Kbuntu on my main PC....

 

[Snowdog]

OpenSUSE is hardly a beginners distro, if you're going to dig dirt you need to maintain some form of reality. Next thing you know you'll be battling Gentoo in order to try and dig dirt.

I am just reporting Distros I actually tried, and wanting something that wasn't Ubuntu based, soon leads you into distros that are less user friendly.

Now on to testing Kbuntu 17.04, I have to say that I'm not really expecting any issues...

I certainly don't expect you to report any issues...

 

[BulletDust]

I am just reporting Distros I actually tried, and wanting something that wasn't Ubuntu based, soon leads you into distros that are less user friendly.



I certainly don't expect you to report any issues...

So based on your comments it's safe for me to assume that even though I'm doing everything I can to be as thorough as possible and actually try to induce the issues you're describing, you're basically implying that I'm lying? I have a stack of images highlighting just what I'm doing, still compiling data at this point, but according to you I'm just so biased I cannot do anything without lying?

BTW: I just tried your excellent vsync tearing test (good find!) on my main Linux PC running Ubuntu MATE 16.04LTS, my Mac running macOS 10.12.5 and my Windows PC running Windows 10 Pro 1703 @ 4lk and didn't see a hint of tearing on any of them - I'll be sure to test the distro's on the nugget test PC.

 

[BulletDust]

I had the same issue with the terminal when I installed MATE. There was no default program selected for the terminal. Went to default and selected the one and only option and done.

Really? That's one I haven't encountered, [ctrl], [alt] & [T] always worked under Ubuntu MATE. Which reminds me, I have to set it up under Kbuntu.

 

[grtitan]

I have to set it up under Kbuntu.

What??

Its not configured out of the box??

Linux sux!!!

 

[auntjemima]

Really? That's one I haven't encountered, [ctrl], [alt] & [T] always worked under Ubuntu MATE. Which reminds me, I have to set it up under Kbuntu.

Yeah, at first I thought I had done something wrong. What was even more annoying was the fact there was only one option and it wasn't selected. Oh well.

What??

Its not configured out of the box??

Linux sux!!!

made me lol

 

[auntjemima]

You complain about having to tweak ANYTHING after installing Linux... and yet you post about the 1001 things you had to change install tweak or disable when you installed Win10.

Yep. Complaining about tweaking things is a bit weird. It is really a non issue. Actual hardware or program issues, sure, but complaining about tweaking an OS is pointless.

 

[BulletDust]

So I've installed Kbuntu 17.04 and all I can say is I love this DE! Little improvements to 17.04 make it even better than 16.04, the whole KDE experience is just divine!

Initial findings are similar to 16.04. using Nouveau there is a little graphical corruption while the display driver loads, settling down to a perfectly usable desktop with tearing if you really look for it. Installed the usual Nvidia-340 drivers and tested for tearing, force desktop composition pipeline had to be enabled to rectify tearing, a simple procedure involving a check box - Under the Nvidia drivers there was no graphical corruption whatsoever using a 9600GT.

Discover worked better than the same application under 16.04, but did crash on exit, sudo apt upgrade rectified this issue completely by installing the usual OS updates. Updates can be done simply via the GUI also.

YouTube tearing tester showed perfect desktop composition with force composition pipeline enabled.

More to follow including some pics.

 

[BulletDust]

Yeah, at first I thought I had done something wrong. What was even more annoying was the fact there was only one option and it wasn't selected. Oh well.

I can't explain that one, very odd?

 

[Snowdog]

Yep. Complaining about tweaking things is a bit weird. It is really a non issue. Actual hardware or program issues, sure, but complaining about tweaking an OS is pointless.

Where did I complain about tweaking. I am complaining about spending 2 days to get Video drivers working.

 

[auntjemima]

Where did I complain about tweaking. I am complaining about spending 2 days to get Video drivers working.

I understand your hardware concerns, all too well, as documented many times on the forums. I was referring specifically to this..

The point is that some people are painting Linux as being easy to install/config

.. and the config part.

 

[BulletDust]

Where did I complain about tweaking. I am complaining about spending 2 days to get Video drivers working.

I had video drivers working in less time than it takes to get them working under Windows, took no longer than a few minutes - No issue whatsoever and I'm using a comparable card.

You can do it via the GUI or using terminal, I prefer terminal as I find it faster.