Linux only needs one 'killer' game to explode, says Battlefield director

[ChadD]

It certainly would have a negative effect on Valve to use a valuable IP to promote a platform where they make no money to give up money on software sales where they make all of they money. Unless there goal was to create a proprietary platform where they did make some money which is what they say they aren't interested in.

Really heatle if MS continues to push windows S.... I would bet money Valve will start rolling out Linux timed exclusives if not full on exclusives.

At this point it looks like a real possibility that MS would like very much to move to a model where Windows S ships on the vast majority of new PCs... with them either selling upgrades to real capable of running steam windows directly or through a sub. They have already started doing it on their own hardware. They have already started moving their "non-pro" windows clients over to windows subscription plans.

If in 2-3 years from now the industry is shipping 50+% of new PCs with windows s. I think you will start seeing Steam OS exclusives from Valve without a doubt... and I wouldn't put it past them to start paying developers that have had long standing relation$hip$ with valve to perhaps even do the same. If I am putting out a major AAA game on both consoles windows and Linux... accept the vast majority of windows PC users can only purchase my game from the MS store in Windows S, where I am paying a higher royalty then I was to Steam. I may consider releasing on Console and Linux for 3-4 months before putting my product in the windows store where I pay higher royalties.... the people that aren't willing to buy it for their console or Linux can wait.

You over estimate MS position... as I believe they do. I am pretty sure they backed off on a play to kill valve once before, when it became clear Valve may have the war chest to actually fight back (and MS was already burning money trying to fight Sony). The steam machine hit right in the middle of the high point cost wise for MS in their Sony console battle. It seems MS just took a longer road to get to the same place now... the only real question is has Valve been smart enough to stock pile the profits they have been making to fight for their kingdom.

 

[ChadD]

That was a friendly response, to an absurd idea.

Hi, business graduate here: if a public company decided to release a major AAA-IP as a Linux exclusive, they'd be sued by their own shareholders. And their shareholders would win.

You have a bit of a point... there is a very good reason MS hides their Xbox division loses and have stopped paying off developers. They had some pretty major stockholders tell them to knock it off or they would clean house.

 

[ChadD]

The only reason to do this is to promote a proprietary platform which is something Valve doesn't seem to be interested in because the money for software sales is so profitable. After what happened with Steam Machines, I don't think there's a lot of appetite to create a desktop Linux based gaming platform.

This is pretty much an academic discussion as far as Linux exclusives go. The Steam machine was a massive success for Valve. I know you don't buy that... but what Gabe was screaming about a few years back was very very real. MS does not like Valve, they hate that everyone is making mad cash on stores but them. They really did intend to play much dirtier with Valve... and with windows s they really still are.

Valve supporting cross platform development was the real win. It gave MS pause... but I do believe the war is still coming. Which does mean we could still see some interesting Valve moves soon enough. I wouldn't doubt they team up with canonical to build promote a pre-installed Steam client and a Steam-TV mode or some such thing. If MS really does start convincing enough OEMs to ship Windows S instead of a full version of windows.... shit will get interesting.

 

[BulletDust]

You have a bit of a point... there is a very good reason MS hides their Xbox division loses and have stopped paying off developers. They had some pretty major stockholders tell them to knock it off or they would clean house.

Considering that last I heard Valve were dead against being a publically traded company because they don't want their products influenced by the people that fund them, I don't really see it as being much of an issue.

As stated, this is all purely hypothetical.

 

[ChadD]

Considering that last I heard Valve were dead against being a publically traded company because they don't want their products influenced by the people that fund them, I don't really see it as being much of an issue.

As stated, this is all purely hypothetical.

I think the fact that they are not public is likely they only thing that saved them the last time they got a wiff of MS planning to play dirty.

When the steam machine hit... MS had zero idea how much of a cash war chest valve was/is really sitting on to fight.

The steam machine and their Linux push I believe made MS decide to take adopt a slower screw Valve over plan. Steam Machine was announced right when the share holders where busy changing MS heads.... right when MS was loosing billions on Xbox hardware and Xbox software exclusive payments. The last thing they wanted was to open a second front in their gaming battle. You only do something like that if you know for sure you can steam roll your opponent... and with no idea how much cash Valve could really commit to the battle why start it while your already tapped out vs Sony.

Linux Windows Mac whatever we are talking about the next few years will be interesting for Valve no doubt. Its obvious MS wants their clients for themselves... the Linux/SteamOS war hasn't even really begun yet as I see it.

 

[BulletDust]

I think the fact that they are not public is likely they only thing that saved them the last time they got a wiff of MS planning to play dirty.

When the steam machine hit... MS had zero idea how much of a cash war chest valve was/is really sitting on to fight.

The steam machine and their Linux push I believe made MS decide to take adopt a slower screw Valve over plan. Steam Machine was announced right when the share holders where busy changing MS heads.... right when MS was loosing billions on Xbox hardware and Xbox software exclusive payments. The last thing they wanted was to open a second front in their gaming battle. You only do something like that if you know for sure you can steam roll your opponent... and with no idea how much cash Valve could really commit to the battle why start it while your already tapped out vs Sony.

Linux Windows Mac whatever we are talking about the next few years will be interesting for Valve no doubt. Its obvious MS wants their clients for themselves... the Linux/SteamOS war hasn't even really begun yet as I see it.

Whatever happens, it's against Valve's best interests to keep all of their eggs primarily in one basket.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Because you're postings wreak of sarcasm, even this one. It's childish and it appears that you quite simply can't help it. I'm sorry you're so insecure that you cannot post without some mention of laughing your arse off.

You can read sarcasm if you want- that doesn't make it so. Real mature your projection there. Insecure much?

If you think the idea is so far fetched, even though every other manufacturer does it, why are you even posting in this thread?

What hardware does Valve manufacture that plays games?

None? Nice comparison.

 

[BulletDust]

You can read sarcasm if you want- that doesn't make it so. Real mature your projection there. Insecure much?



What hardware does Valve manufacture that plays games?

None? Nice comparison.

Great, so you've made your point. Anything beyond this sprinkled with comments about laughing your arse off is pure trolling.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

What trolling? The topic is AAA exclusives for desktop Linux. It's absurd, but there it is.

 

[BulletDust]

What trolling? The topic is AAA exclusives for desktop Linux. It's absurd, but there it is.

Look at that! A post with an opinion but no sarcasm - Good job.

If you had have just posted that in the first place it would have been respect all round.

 

[ChadD]

How is it absurd. I think a lot of people don't really understand why Valve created steamos to begin with.

MS wants their store >.<

They won't want to play nice with valve. You know how much $ MS makes when valve sells a AAA game for a Non-MS owned developer.

The answer is ZERO.

MS used to not really care much... this is where a MS employee would say. "it doesn't matter it keeps windows strong and sells PCs with Windows licences".

That's all well and good but... all the MS shareholders have been asking for a few years now... hey how come Apple makes way more profit on way fewer machines ? Not to mention hey how did this Google company completely and utterly eat our lunch.

So MS responded. They have put in motion plans to move windows to a subscription base if they can... and without a doubt a locked in store if they can get away with it. They have also built advertising into their OS both directly and indirectly through cortana and text searches. At this point the numbers don't lie Advertising is MS biggest money maker not the actual OS. In fact non-pro licence sales is one of the smallest parts of the windows reporting unit these days.

On Windows S MS makes lots of profit on games sold. If the majority of windows users end up running Windows S, Valve dies. Its that simple.

The war for PC gaming hasn't even started at this point. We can argue about Gabe possibly being paranoid and crazy.... but they created SteamOS because they felt MS was going to make a play for their egg basket. It worked exactly as I believe Valve intended. It scared MS off from starting anything in the short term... and long term Linux is becoming a very viable replacement for windows.

Perhaps Linux exclusives sounds crazy right now... but consider what happens if this year or in the next if MS pushes hard for OEMs to ship Windows S by default. Sure end users could upgrade... and I'm sure people with big steam libraries would do just that. But that would sure put a damper on future sales for valve wouldn't it. For a lot of regular users (millions of whom are the people using all those integrated intel GPUs on the steam charts) they will likely be fine and happy with windows s and the using the windows store for the casual gaming they do. Should that come to pass... ya Valve isn't going to just walk away from their game store empire. There will also be plenty of Valve loving publishers/developers who have gotten pretty nice big client deals from valve over the years that won't be happy about being forced to sell a larger % of their games through a higher royalty charging MS store.

If MS goes down that road... and all indications are they will. Ya I wouldn't be surprised if Valve and a collection of big name developers band together and go as far as release actual Linux/SteamOS exclusives even if they are timed ones. (some of those publishers may even have pull with OEMs to push Ubuntu pre-installed+steam client ready to go machines.... buying Dell machines with Ubuntu-steam edition OS pre-installed and a voucher for a few exclusive AAA Linux titles. Those are machines that would actually move)

 

[heatlesssun]

Currently Windows 10 alone is over 50% of the gamers on Steam. But hey Windows 10 S and somehow that's an incentive for Valve or anyone to make exclusive games for a platform that fewer than 1% of Steam users are on? Developers, including Valve are going to go where the customers are. If at some point the customers aren't on Windows then there won't be Windows games or Linux exclusives. That's not going to be the case as long as Valve's own surveys show Windows users as 96% of their customer base.

 

[Frobozz]

Currently Windows 10 alone is over 50% of the gamers on Steam. But hey Windows 10 S and somehow that's an incentive for Valve or anyone to make exclusive games for a platform that fewer than 1% of Steam users are on? Developers, including Valve are going to go where the customers are. If at some point the customers aren't on Windows then there won't be Windows games or Linux exclusives. That's not going to be the case as long as Valve's own surveys show Windows users as 96% of their customer base.

If Valve felt they were getting pushed out of Windows gaming, then that would be a threatening enough scenario where they would/could react by trying to push a new gaming platform. With the current landscape, it's far fetched. However, if you add a dash of imagination and some aggressive business moves, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility. (Hence why Valve is still dedicating resources to Linux development)

Add the backdrop of Windows 10 S, and the push to merge Xbox and Windows 10 on the console side, and you can see a road where 3rd party stores gets pushed out. The MS marketing machine could (and probably does) pitch how easy it'd be to release on both platforms using their tools. I imagine a single target of "Xbox on Windows" would be attractive to developers.

It's far to "what if" and currently far fetched to be yanking the wheel, but Valve would probably want to keep glancing in the rear view mirror to keep an eye on things while trying to be ready to react. A healthy dose of paranoia if you will.

 

[zorobabel]

If I am putting out a major AAA game on both consoles windows and Linux... accept the vast majority of windows PC users can only purchase my game from the MS store in Windows S, where I am paying a higher royalty then I was to Steam. I may consider releasing on Console and Linux for 3-4 months before putting my product in the windows store where I pay higher royalties.... the people that aren't willing to buy it for their console or Linux can wait.

What will happen is that developers will release their games through the windows store because the royalties will be less, it's obvious really.

As for the starting post, yeah a linux exclusive game will move all businesses and non-gamers off windows. Now if BulletDust said a new linux exclusive porn platform would kill windows, that would have more merit.

 

[ChadD]

What will happen is that developers will release their games through the windows store because the royalties will be less, it's obvious really.

As for the starting post, yeah a linux exclusive game will move all businesses and non-gamers off windows. Now if BulletDust said a new linux exclusive porn platform would kill windows, that would have more merit.

Any publisher/developer who has ever said anything have always said MS charges a higher % then everyone else. They also have to repackage their products in far less cross platform packages, meaning more work.

I am not saying that we are going to see Linux exclusives next month.

I would put it this way. If 5 years ago you had said to me hey Valve is going to support Linux in a big way this year and in 5 years there will be over 3,000 Linux titles in the steam Library and over half of Steams top 100 titles will have Linux clients. I would have laughed in your face... I loved Linux then as well, but I still would have laughed in your face. Major big company support for Linux gaming??? Come on lets get real. That is what I would have said.

Then MS started talking to developers about removing W32. (We know they did some game developers have said so, and mobile developers where saying the same thing, that MS was promising the end of w32 and true unification of the garden) So Valve reacted... they poured a ton of money into Linux, they launched the steam boxs, which I don't think they honestly expected to sell a ton of. At first it scared MS off and they waited almost 4 years to talk about killing W32 again. Now they are doing more then just talking about it again, they have released Windows S. I know us power type users have just ignored it and said sure makes sense with chromebooks moving in ect. What it represents to Valve however is a complete loss of potential new market space. If even 25% of new computers ship with Windows S, and 50% of those people stay on 10s... that is a lot of lost potential in a market that hasn't stopped shrinking naturally the last number of years.

It does seem crazy for Valve or any developer to release even a short few week timed exclusive to Linux right now of course. Still I don't think it is all that crazy if Windows 10 s gains some traction. If Valve starts seeing a large number of new windows machines shipping that are incapable of running steams client... and/or MS starts offering real competitive pricing to game developers to be on the MS store. I could very well see Valve fighting back with a larger Linux push... the fastest way to boost Linux adoption could be exclusives sure. If they took a few smaller developers with popular titles and said hey no fees for your next couple games ever as long as you make them Linux exclusives for the first 3 months, I think they would have more then a few takers as store fees add up. From there if Valve uses some of their war chest cash to help get a few major OEMs to ship Ubuntu powered machines (not steam consoles) I do believe Linux could jump into the double digits in market share a lot quicker then any of us would think possible.

I still can't believe Linux gaming has gotten to where it is with 4 years of Valve support... Heatle can go on and on about it still being a joke, but it is no joke at all, anyone that gamed on Linux 5 years ago knows that. What they have done in such a short time is amazing and completely unexpected. When valve announced steamos, I was a Linux pusher and still didn't think it stood a chance in hell of ever getting support from all but a small handful of indie developers and valve themselves. Seeing ever major game engine support Linux ect.... was a fantasy. Yet here we are... a future where the vast majority of games including AAA ones hitting in the next few years could have Linux clients coded in days if the developers choose to. (not saying they all will... but if Valve started a real fight with MS and Valve started throwing money around to make it happen they have laid the ground work to make it possible)

 

[heatlesssun]

It's far to "what if" and currently far fetched to be yanking the wheel, but Valve would probably want to keep glancing in the rear view mirror to keep an eye on things while trying to be ready to react. A healthy dose of paranoia if you will.

Steam OS and Steam Machines were conceived out of a healthy dose of paranoia and nothing wrong with that.

 

[heatlesssun]

I still can't believe Linux gaming has gotten to where it is with 4 years of Valve support... Heatle can go on and on about it still being a joke, but it is no joke at all, anyone that gamed on Linux 5 years ago knows that.

Sure for Linux gamers things have gotten better. And so has Windows gaming with more titles than ever far outpacing Linux. It's not like Linux gaming got better and Windows stayed the same.

If Valve wants to do Linux exclusives they're going to have to promote Steam Machines and with significantly more vigor than last time and get PC vendors to get a lot more PCs installed with Linux because telling average people they have to install an OS to play a game isn't going anywhere. And in all of that, what's in it for Valve to ignore 99% of their current customers? Because Windows 10 S?

Linux exclusives aren't happening without TONS more Linux gamers or unless Valve or someone decides to really dedicate themselves to a desktop Linux "console" like Steam Machines.

 

[ChadD]

Sure for Linux gamers things have gotten better. And so has Windows gaming with more titles than ever far outpacing Linux. It's not like Linux gaming got better and Windows stayed the same.

If Valve wants to do Linux exclusives they're going to have to promote Steam Machines and with significantly more vigor than last time and get PC vendors to get a lot more PCs installed with Linux because telling average people they have to install an OS to play a game isn't going anywhere. And in all of that, what's in it for Valve to ignore 99% of their current customers? Because Windows 10 S?

Linux exclusives aren't happening without TONS more Linux gamers or unless Valve or someone decides to really dedicate themselves to a desktop Linux "console" like Steam Machines.

Really has windows gaming gotten any better? I would argue it hasn't. Of course tech gets a bit better... but is it really much better then it was 5 years ago or is it pretty much the same. IMO at best you could argue their are fewer bad console ports today then there was 5 years ago. For every chart showing gaming sales going up... I can point to another that show them going down. Sure up for a bunch of online stores, down for the old physical disc pipeline. Has PC gaming really grown ? I don't know I believe the reports that say it has are a bunch of hocus pocus math.

And yes windows 10 s is going to lead to a major battle and not just with Valve. If you believe MS bothered creating windows 10 s for use only ever in the lowest of low tablet type machines and to fight to regain the education market, I have another bridge to talk to you about today as well. I mean hell their first windows 10s "example" hardware is hardly a low end chromebook style machine.

MS wants to rule over a walled garden. Anyone that doesn't see that is just plain stupid. Its the one and frankly only reason Valve ever put money into Linux gaming in the first place.

Exclusives happen when someone has a system to sell I don't disagree. When MS started doing the first Xbox exclusives there was NO market there at all.. they had a system to sell. A store like Valves is no different from a console really, its a system by which people can buy software which makes the system owner royalty payments. Valve your 100% right heatle is reliant on Windows for that.... no doubt the vast majority of their money comes from people using their system on top of another system they don't own. One where the owner has made no secrete that they want Valves business for themselves.

So it doesn't freaking matter if a game is going to sell a ton less at first in the exclusive game... the point is to push the system. If Valve feels they need to own their entire system top to bottom or die... they are not going to freaking choose to die. MS knows this... I believe its partly why they backed off 4 years ago, they can't afford to try and outspend Sony and Valve at the same time, as it was their shareholders made them Axe projects and people in charge of them for wasting their profits fighting Sony.

Anyway I'm making the same points I already made. Regardless of exclusives or no exclusives... there is a fight coming between Valve and MS. Unless MS decides to back off their walled garden dreams.

 

[heatlesssun]

Really has windows gaming gotten any better? I would argue it hasn't. Of course tech gets a bit better... but is it really much better then it was 5 years ago or is it pretty much the same. IMO at best you could argue their are fewer bad console ports today then there was 5 years ago. For every chart showing gaming sales going up... I can point to another that show them going down. Sure up for a bunch of online stores, down for the old physical disc pipeline. Has PC gaming really grown ? I don't know I believe the reports that say it has are a bunch of hocus pocus math.

Valve is saying that Steam is going gangbusters, the Windows title count has exploded and now there is a totally new way to play games with VR. Tons of choices and options.

And yes windows 10 s is going to lead to a major battle and not just with Valve.
If you believe MS bothered creating windows 10 s for use only ever in the lowest of low tablet type machines and to fight to regain the education market, I have another bridge to talk to you about today as well. I mean hell their first windows 10s "example" hardware is hardly a low end chromebook style machine.

Same things were said about Windows RT. And yeah, Windows 10 S is a response to Chromebooks. Does Microsoft have larger plans for it, sure. Does it mean that it will be received and better than Windows RT? Maybe. Is it going to replace standard Windows devices for people who need Win32? Probably not.

When MS started doing the first Xbox exclusives there was NO market there at all..

But there is a huge Steam market where 99% of the folks don't use Linux and 80% of the games aren't Linux compatible. Linux exclusives are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist to cater to a market that doesn't exist while ignoring 99% of paying customers that do exist.

We've been down this road with Steam OS and Steam Machines. They didn't really take off and a few of exclusives while Steam is sitting on a library of thousands of Linux incompatible games isn't going to solve any problem they have while only costing them money.

 

[ChadD]

Valve is saying that Steam is going gangbusters, the Windows title count has exploded and now there is a totally new way to play games with VR. Tons of choices and options.

And they serve at MS leisure >.< Bottom line is they are a very large company 100% reliant on a company that would love nothing more then replace them completely with their own product.

Same things were said about Windows RT. And yeah, Windows 10 S is a response to Chromebooks. Does Microsoft have larger plans for it, sure. Does it mean that it will be received and better than Windows RT? Maybe. Is it going to replace standard Windows devices for people who need Win32? Probably not.

Win32 is dead. MS is not going to support it forever. They have said as much multiple times. Windows "legacy" w32 is on the out. When a company starts calling the framework you rely on completely for your business to continue legacy. Its time to start figuring out what your going to do when its gone. Moving to the windows store clearly isn't an option if your product is a store front. Valve has 3 choices going forware, Make Linux work, Make MacOS work... or go back to just being a game developer.

But there is a huge Steam market where 99% of the folks don't use Linux and 80% of the games aren't Linux compatible. Linux exclusives are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist to cater to a market that doesn't exist while ignoring 99% of paying customers that do exist.

We've been down this road with Steam OS and Steam Machines. They didn't really take off and a few of exclusives while Steam is sitting on a library of thousands of Linux incompatible games isn't going to solve any problem they have while only costing them money.

I won't even get into your BS numbers we have went over this before. If you don't see MS as a huge issue for Valve... then your not paying attention.

Valve has done what they wanted to do... I doubt they expected Linux adoption for gaming to go as well as it has frankly. They have helped push to lay the ground work for the entire industry to tell MS to fuck themselves if need be. THAT was their goal and they won. If MS makes Windows 10s a thing almost every major game publisher is going to be able to jump to Linux with very minimal expense. THAT is what they wanted. MS has a far weaker position then they did 5 years ago. If MS manages to get 20-50% of the market on Windows 10 S in the next year or two... and tries to force the majority of the gaming industry into shitty MS favoring royalty agreements. They can all say suck it and publish their games on Linux and Mac... and yes OEMs as you have always said will go where the money is. (well there is the OEM truth you deny... but as soon as they can figure out how to wiggle out of a lot of BS MS contracts they would be free to start shipping more Linux machines to fill demand lol)

While we are talking about huge what ifs. (which is what I am talking about). Google is still on the outside of any gaming fights. They have been slapping MS around for a few years now in lots of markets... such as Education as you suggest Win 10 s is meant to battle over. Which is of course why MS shipped its first Win 10 S machine on a $1000+ surface laptop. /s Should a few people at Google decide the time is ripe for Google to enter the gaming industry, a few calls to Valve and all of a sudden MS shareholders will be shitting some pretty sizable bricks. The days of Windows = PC gaming are waning. (I really really hate that whole PC platform branding crap MS pulled btw)

 

[BulletDust]

Steam OS and Steam Machines were conceived out of a healthy dose of paranoia and nothing wrong with that.

I'd be more inclined to call it foresight and perfectly normal within cut throat tech industries, in fact I'd call it perfectly normal within any industry.

Every day I see news articles on my tablet pertaining to MS improving the Windows store, MS moving paint to the Windows store - If Valve don't maintain some degree of foresight Microsoft are on the right path to slowly back them out the door and lock it behind them.

 

[heatlesssun]

And they serve at MS leisure >.< Bottom line is they are a very large company 100% reliant on a company that would love nothing more then replace them completely with their own product.

Windows developers and Microsoft partners have made countless billions over the years through the Windows ecosystem and that's been extremely beneficial to Microsoft and companies like Steam. I think the idea that Microsoft wants to just own it all and do everything themselves
doesn't help them.

Win32 is dead.

This makes absolutely no sense.

MS is not going to support it forever.

And yet they just extended its life with Windows Store Centennial apps.

I won't even get into your BS numbers we have went over this before. If you don't see MS as a huge issue for Valve... then your not paying attention.

I am paying attention. As a Windows users I've spent more money on Steam than any year I've been using is since it came online. And that was driven by whole new tech in current PC VR that Valve STILL hasn't gotten working on Linux well enough to release into general production. So it's not all Microsoft is the enemy, without Windows Valve's VR efforts might be no where right now.

Valve has done what they wanted to do... I doubt they expected Linux adoption for gaming to go as well as it has frankly.

Valve's own data says that Linux adoption hasn't been that great and even the Linux gaming enthusiast site GamingOnLinux has confirmed these numbers independently with developers. I can't imagine that Valve was shooting for less than 1% Linux users 4 years into it.

They have helped push to lay the ground work for the entire industry to tell MS to fuck themselves if need be.

Not at this point they have. ​

​

If MS makes Windows 10s a thing almost every major game publisher is going to be able to jump to Linux with very minimal expense.

It would be even easier to just wrap the game in Centennial and push it through the Windows Store.

MS has a far weaker position then they did 5 years ago.

In PC gaming? Hardly.

​

While we are talking about huge what ifs. (which is what I am talking about). Google is still on the outside of any gaming fights. They have been slapping MS around for a few years now in lots of markets... such as Education as you suggest Win 10 s is meant to battle over. Which is of course why MS shipped its first Win 10 S machine on a $1000+ surface laptop. /s

Fair enough. As for Windows 10 S on the Surface Laptop, that was obviously testing the idea out because 1) it's a two minute process to upgrade to 10 Pro and 2) The new Surface Pro that launched two weeks later come with 10 Pro.

The days of Windows = PC gaming are waning.

Not while Windows is the only platform that gets all PC games not while emerging technologies like VR at the high end for now at least are virtually 100% Windows based. macOS has opened up support for Steam VR and the Vive but no Oculus Rift (Oculus dropped Linux support a some time ago) and that's probably selling pretty well right now with the price reduction, 've got one on pre-order because of the price.

 

[heatlesssun]

Every day I see news articles on my tablet pertaining to MS improving the Windows store, MS moving paint to the Windows store - If Valve don't maintain some degree of foresight Microsoft are on the right path to slowly back them out the door and lock it behind them.

And on my Windows tablets I actually run Steam, there are some touch capable games there that run pretty well on a Windows tablet. Anything is possible. As I've said, I've spent more money on Steam since I've been using it which was the beginning side by side with the Windows Store, Origin, etc. This is what makes Windows, all of that software from all over.

Microsoft is never going to just give up the thing that makes Windows tough to replace.

 

[ChadD]

As usual heatle we will agree to disagree. lol

W32 is alive and well your right. Words like "Centennial" for end users and "Legacy" for developers should install lots of confidence from companies like Valve. /s

I never claimed that upgrading 10 s to pro was hard. It simply isn't free... and you give up all that security that MS goes on and on about when talking about 10 s.

Again time to agree to disagree and move on with our days. Your right windows strong like bull... grrr.

 

[ChadD]

Microsoft is never going to just give up the thing that makes Windows tough to replace.

MS will do as their shareholders demand... as is the case for any public company. They demand profits... and continued growth, but mostly profits. MS get to neither sticking to the status quo.

 

[BulletDust]

And on my Windows tablets I actually run Steam, there are some touch capable games there that run pretty well on a Windows tablet. Anything is possible. As I've said, I've spent more money on Steam since I've been using it which was the beginning side by side with the Windows Store, Origin, etc. This is what makes Windows, all of that software from all over.

Microsoft is never going to just give up the thing that makes Windows tough to replace.

You can run Steam on Android, granted you can't play games, but it's a moot point not even worth mentioning.

If MS could generate more revenue by becoming the sole digital distribution platform of choice for their OS, especially considering they gave it away, to suggest otherwise is far more preposterous than stating that a SteamOS exclusive would benefit Steam Machines. Valve needs to diversify and it's quite obvious that's exactly what they're doing.

 

[heatlesssun]

I never claimed that upgrading 10 s to pro was hard. It simply isn't free... and you give up all that security that MS goes on and on about when talking about 10 s.

Upgrading to 10 Pro is free on the Surface Laptop until the end of the year. I have a feeling that will become permanent. Just me making a guess but at its price that's not an unreasonable guess.

MS will do as their shareholders demand... as is the case for any public company. They demand profits... and continued growth, but mostly profits. MS get to neither sticking to the status quo.

I don't think I see their shareholders demanding to give up the biggest advantage Windows has on the desktop which is its software support.

 

[heatlesssun]

If MS could generate more revenue by becoming the sole digital distribution platform of choice for their OS, especially considering they gave it away, to suggest otherwise is far more preposterous than stating that a SteamOS exclusive would benefit Steam Machines. Valve needs to diversify and it's quite obvious that's exactly what they're doing.

I get that folks have been making this argument since Windows 8 was announced with a Store. And yes there's been Windows RT and now Windows 10 S. There's nothing to be gained by Microsoft with a zero sum software distribution system. I think some people look at Windows 10 S and overthink what it is. Like those Linux distros in the Windows Store, 10 S doesn't support those. Nor development tools. There's simply too much Windows software out there for Microsoft to now all of sudden become the sole distributor. And in doing so losing something like Steam and the fact that people are tied to Windows because of its gaming support.

The cost of totally locking all versions of Windows to the Windows Store and dropping Win32 support far exceed any gain to be made from those moves. 30% of every software sale sounds great except so much of that software is free and when people go looking for that software and gee, it's not in the store because the Windows user base collapsed because Microsoft removed the most powerful aspect of Windows in its immense software library that now doesn't work.

As for Steam diversifying, that's not really in their hands. There simply needs to be a lot more non-Windows users out there. Exclusives might help with that but then having those exclusives cut off from the bulk of games on Steam, yeah, people are going to just love Valve for making them dual boot or buy another computer just to be able to access all of their Steam library. Linux users might be ok with that but it's something Windows users never have had to deal with before, i.e. 96% of Steam's current customers.

 

[ChadD]

Upgrading to 10 Pro is free on the Surface Laptop until the end of the year. I have a feeling that will become permanent. Just me making a guess but at its price that's not an unreasonable guess.

I don't think I see their shareholders demanding to give up the biggest advantage Windows has on the desktop which is its software support.

2 things... one why release something that you never ever intent to charge for, two investors are not tech gurus. Profits are what they care about. I would not be willing to bet that any of the top MS share holders have a hot clue what has made windows popular or not. People in the know couldn't point to one thing... even they are guessing.

Shareholders will allow managers to invest in the future if they feel there is a need or reason to do so. If they feel there is no reason to, or doing so is unwise... ya they will pull the plug. Do you really think MS isn't pushing exclusive Xbox content anymore because they felt it was the right move ? They stopped burning money trying to make Xbox the only console through software because they ran out of places to hide the losses on investor sheets. It doesn't matter how big a company gets... they still answer to investors, and no investors don't want to hear about how w32 allows 1,000s of companies they don't invest in to make money which helps sell a few OS licences. (as I have said many times read their reports Enterprise + non-pro licences combined don't make as much money as Ads anymore, and both combined+the Ad money doesn't make as much as cloud services do anymore, Windows simply isn't MS biggest product at this point). To the average MS investor.... trust me if they understand what W32 is, they fucking hate it. Their major investors want MS to go walled garden even more then MS bosses. If you think anyone holding millions of MS stock hasn't tracked how much richer they would be if they had invested in Google or Apple instead give your head a shake. The last few years MS investors have felt MS needs to make up for what they feel they have "lost".

 

[BulletDust]

I get that folks have been making this argument since Windows 8 was announced with a Store. And yes there's been Windows RT and now Windows 10 S. There's nothing to be gained by Microsoft with a zero sum software distribution system. I think some people look at Windows 10 S and overthink what it is. Like those Linux distros in the Windows Store, 10 S doesn't support those. Nor development tools. There's simply too much Windows software out there for Microsoft to now all of sudden become the sole distributor. And in doing so losing something like Steam and the fact that people are tied to Windows because of its gaming support.

The cost of totally locking all versions of Windows to the Windows Store and dropping Win32 support far exceed any gain to be made from those moves. 30% of every software sale sounds great except so much of that software is free and when people go looking for that software and gee, it's not in the store because the Windows user base collapsed because Microsoft removed the most powerful aspect of Windows in its immense software library that now doesn't work.

As for Steam diversifying, that's not really in their hands. There simply needs to be a lot more non-Windows users out there. Exclusives might help with that but then having those exclusives cut off from the bulk of games on Steam, yeah, people are going to just love Valve for making them dual boot or buy another computer just to be able to access all of their Steam library. Linux users might be ok with that but it's something Windows users never have had to deal with before, i.e. 96% of Steam's current customers.

I never mentioned 10S and I never mentioned RT.

MS are a publically traded company, profit is the entire point of it's existence and they gave Windows 10 away. Their basic means for their existence now is their cloud based division and a Windows Store is, essentially, the cloud.

You say MS would never give up Windows biggest advantage, in a fashion that's sounds more like pleading than any form of logical thinking. The fact is that MS aren't giving up anything when the consumer isn't the one choosing the OS that's installed on their new machine in 99% of all purchases - Essentially, MS can do anything they want, especially when their primary means of existence is no longer their flagship product.

 

[ChadD]

I get that folks have been making this argument since Windows 8 was announced with a Store. And yes there's been Windows RT and now Windows 10 S. There's nothing to be gained by Microsoft with a zero sum software distribution system. I think some people look at Windows 10 S and overthink what it is. Like those Linux distros in the Windows Store, 10 S doesn't support those. Nor development tools. There's simply too much Windows software out there for Microsoft to now all of sudden become the sole distributor. And in doing so losing something like Steam and the fact that people are tied to Windows because of its gaming support.

Heatle you misunderstand. I don't think anyone is saying windows 10s is ever going to be the only version of windows. It is however likely to be the only version of windows regular users get when they buy a PC. Which is enough to seriously eat into Valves (or any other third party stores) market.

MS doesn't have to right kill W32 off completely... just make it irrelevant for average users. MS has been saying that is their intention for a long time now. It is also exactly what you just said. W32 is for developers. Ok how does that help a company like Valve who is relying on millions of average joe type users installing the steam store. If average joes have no need to pay 50 bucks (or later subscribe) to a W32 complaint version of windows, why the heck would they pay so they can buy from Valve... if they can just not pay and buy from MS instead.

As I said earlier... if someone has 200 steam games in their library. Sure if they buy a new machine with 10 s, they will spend 50 bucks or whatever the cost is to unlock the ability to install steam. However if someone is buying their first PC... or the first PC they plan to game on and own nothing... well they have no reason to unlock windows for steam or origin ect if the MS store has all the same product for the same price. (and if they buy the MS its more secure BS sales pitch)

 

[BulletDust]

I find it interesting how users think a AAA exclusive for Linux for a short period of time is absurd when Microsoft, a publically traded company, gave Windows 10 away supposedly (yet to be seen) indefinitely resulting in their cloud division becoming their main source of revenue.

 

[heatlesssun]

MS are a publically traded company, profit is the entire point of it's existence and they gave Windows 10 away. Their basic means for their existence now is their cloud based division and a Windows Store is, essentially, the cloud.

They gave away consumer upgrades for a year. Consumer upgrades haven't been a big business for Microsoft for a long time.

You say MS would never give up Windows biggest advantage, in a fashion that's sounds more like pleading than any form of logical thinking.

Huh? Windows is just going to stop supporting millions of programs because some people who generally don't like Microsoft or Windows thinks that Microsoft is going to be able to profit more by tying all versions of Windows to the Windows Store? I think the wishful thinking is from that crowd that would love to see Microsoft just give up the biggest advantage that Windows has on the desktop. That would do more to generate awareness of Linux than a 1000 Linux game exclusives.

The fact is that MS aren't giving up anything when the consumer isn't the one choosing the OS that's installed on their new machine in 99% of all purchases - Essentially, MS can do anything they want, especially when their primary means of existence is no longer their flagship product.

And when a lot of those people go to install Steam and some games or hell even LibreOffice and can't because no current version of Windows for their hardware supports those programs? Look at how disjointed people get over pretty small stuff like MS Paint moving to the store. Just think about hundreds of millions of Windows users not being able to run countless billions in Windows software they paid for. There's just nothing in it for Microsoft to completely negate the reason why so many use Windows in the first place.

 

[BulletDust]

They gave away consumer upgrades for a year. Consumer upgrades haven't been a big business for Microsoft for a long time.

They gave away Windows 10 for a year, in the case of retail licences it's assumed that Windows 10 licence can be used on any machine indefinitely - A point that remains to be seen.

Versus Valve offering a AAA game as a SteamOS/Linux exclusive for ~6 months.

My point still stands.

 

[heatlesssun]

Heatle you misunderstand. I don't think anyone is saying windows 10s is ever going to be the only version of windows. It is however likely to be the only version of windows regular users get when they buy a PC. Which is enough to seriously eat into Valves (or any other third party stores) market.

We've been down this road with Windows RT and the probably the biggest why it failed was because it wasn't Win32 compatible and confusing for consumers. And OEMs learned that lesson as well. I doubt OEMs would sell anything labeled as a gaming machine or higher end machine with Windows 10 S, at least not without a free upgrade.

MS doesn't have to right kill W32 off completely... just make it irrelevant for average users. MS has been saying that is their intention for a long time now. It is also exactly what you just said. W32 is for developers. Ok how does that help a company like Valve who is relying on millions of average joe type users installing the steam store. If average joes have no need to pay 50 bucks (or later subscribe) to a W32 complaint version of windows, why the heck would they pay so they can buy from Valve... if they can just not pay and buy from MS instead.

We're talking about a diverse group with Windows users. Most Windows users don't use Steam and never will. For them Windows 10 S might be just fine, indeed a lot of folks don't need access to the vast Windows ecosystem. So sure I get that Valve could that as a threat because those people might get some games from the Windows Store because it's right there while Steam isn't. Those people aren't likely going to go install Linux to run Steam games, they'd just do the in place upgrade for a fee if they had to go to 10 Pro.

So even if Windows 10 S became popular I don't see those people going out and getting Linux systems.

As I said earlier... if someone has 200 steam games in their library. Sure if they buy a new machine with 10 s, they will spend 50 bucks or whatever the cost is to unlock the ability to install steam.

I doubt that too many people with that large of a library of Steam games would ever buy a primary gaming rig with 10 S on it. Certainly no one building a gaming rig is going to do it.

However if someone is buying their first PC... or the first PC they plan to game on and own nothing... well they have no reason to unlock windows for steam or origin ect if the MS store has all the same product for the same price. (and if they buy the MS its more secure BS sales pitch)

And that does hurt Valve but not developers so much. There's quite a few games that are both in the Windows Store and Steam. These days Steam isn't much of a developer. So sure I get that they make their money on their cut of Steam sales. For a developer being on both stores, what's it to them? Maybe at some point Steam does decide to make Linux exclusives but it doesn't matter how many people are running Windows 10 S if 96% of their current customers are running Windows, that doesn't work.

 

[heatlesssun]

They gave away Windows 10 for a year, in the case of retail licences it's assumed that Windows 10 licence can be used on any machine indefinitely - A point that remains to be seen.

As a consumer you had to be on Windows 7 or 8.1 to get the free upgrade.

Versus Valve offering a AAA game as a SteamOS/Linux exclusive for ~6 months.

If Valve wants to ignore 99% of its customer for six months to get more gamers on Linux. Sure, because if they want to play tons of other games during that six months they'll have to run Windows.

I get the whole Microsoft locking everything down and whatnot but a Linux exclusives just can't work with their current market share and a WHOLE lot of games on Steam that aren't Linux compatible. Yes, I get it works for Linux gamers or those that dual boot or run multiple devices but that's just needless complexity and potentially cost if one were to say by a dedicated Steam machine. For this to work Valve would need a continuous library of Linux only titles from multiple developers. That's a huge outlay that Valve would have to make to sell far fewer games to promote Linux gaming.

 

[ChadD]

We've been down this road with Windows RT.... [snip]

I doubt that too many people with that large of a library of Steam games would ever buy a primary gaming rig with 10 S on it. Certainly no one building a gaming rig is going to do it.

And that does hurt Valve but not developers so much. There's quite a few games that are both in the Windows Store and Steam. These days Steam isn't much of a developer. So sure I get that they make their money on their cut of Steam sales. For a developer being on both stores, what's it to them? Maybe at some point Steam does decide to make Linux exclusives but it doesn't matter how many people are running Windows 10 S if 96% of their current customers are running Windows, that doesn't work.

No we have not been down that road. You are talking about a version of windows designed to run on Phone hardware. Not a version of windows that is fully x86 compliant... can run any crazy GPU a OEM whats to equip it with. Windows 10 s is not windows RT. Its windows with W32 disabled not more powerful x86 hardware.... if X or Y AAA game is in the windows store you can run it on Windows S >.< Windows RT was never ever ever something for Valve to worry about.

People building game rigs are NOT valves bread and butter. As we have pointed out a lot of times... the vast majority of Steam users are using integrated GPUs and off the shelf OEM purchased machines. The number of people like you and me that build our machines was never large, and is not growing my friend.

As for what does it matter to developers that aren't valve... the answer is pretty damn simple. MS CHARGES them more then valve does, that is what every developer who have dealt with both has stated so far. Also if I am a developer of games that cost me 50+ million and years to develop... ya I'm paying attention to the Valve vs MS battle. Cause if Valve goes away guess what... MS will charge even more. If Valve never turned steam into a thing, MS would no doubt be charging more to developers to list their product already. Developers have long memories, and are often headed by people who have been around the block a few times. I doubt many of them really want to jump into bed with MS alone.

 

[heatlesssun]

I find it interesting how users think a AAA exclusive for Linux for a short period of time is absurd when Microsoft, a publically traded company, gave Windows 10 away supposedly (yet to be seen) indefinitely resulting in their cloud division becoming their main source of revenue.

Not at all the same thing.

 

[ChadD]

If Valve wants to ignore 99% of its customer for six months to get more gamers on Linux. Sure, because if they want to play tons of other games during that six months they'll have to run Windows.

You always love to sound like a rich kid don't you lol. You where the kid that had an Atari, Colleco Vision, Adam, Commodore and likely any system someone called cool back in the day aren't you.

Most people have to choose... which is the point of doing exclusives. Sony wants you to buy a PS4 not a Xbox so they pay a developer to not publish on the other guys system at all or for X amount of time. MS used to do the same. That is the point... to make people choose.

Now when it comes to PCs nothing stopping people from dual booting ect... but for the masses that just buy a system already running. Ya they will have to make a choice. Perhaps they have hated all the windows ports the last 5-10 years and the prospect of playing Half Life 3 a year before their friends makes them pull the trigger on a new Ubuntu machine. Who knows its all what ifs isn't it.

But ya your point is valid... exclusives force people to choose one system over another, that is the point of spending the $ on them.

 

[BulletDust]

I don't know Heatlesssun from a bar of soap, his an IP address on the end of a broadband connection to me. However it has to be said that judging from his postings, he doesn't care for the history of gaming and would likely prefer it all dies in a house fire: He only cares for the latest and greatest as he believes that allows him some form of superiority considering his system and therefore somehow believes that as a result his opinion applies to gamers as a whole.

In his opinion Linux does not allow for what he considers to be the 'latest and greatest', so he is opposed to anyone that portrays Linux and gaming in a positive light believing they're exaggerating certain realities.

Just as a long term observation without any form of prejudice.