Commodore Rocks...Because I Said So

[GilmourD]

Wow, despite your forum moniker you must not read what Kyle writes or pay attention to what goes on in the rest of the site. Have you noticed he only allows ads for companies and products he trusts? The reason [H] consumer isn't around is because companies don't spend ad money at review sites that don't sing their praises. You see any Dell ads on the site? No? Maybe its because Kyle properly reviewed them and they didn't like it. I don't even want to imagine the money they've lost by not selling out.

I get nervous buying from an e-tailer that doesn't have an ad on this site.

QFMFT!

Before anything difinitive happened, I knew something was wrong with Monarch when Kyle dropped their ads.

 

[mohammedtaha]

I don't understand how Kyle could've been wrong.

A company states (world) leadership in X. I say, where's the proof ?

Many American companies and even sports commentators, or what have you, say we're the best in the world.

I always laugh at that because the NFL, NBA, MLB or whatever sport you wanna talk about is not the fucking world. Yeah, there are some good basketball players but the world is further than the oceans bordering your country.

If a company or anyone says they're a leader in anything, Be ready to PROVIDE SOME FACTS. Simple!

 

[Digger]

If you read the article instead of acting like girly boys you would've noticed Kyle had said the pr person had gotten personal first, then he handed him his ass.the [H] has lost it's hardness !

 

[Digger]

Makes me sick .This place is Known for not pulling punches or kissing anyones backside!

 

[FrgMstr]

QFMFT!

Before anything difinitive happened, I knew something was wrong with Monarch when Kyle dropped their ads.

It cost me a lot of money to do that as well as we were never paid for a lot of the ads we did run. But the fact of the matter is that I saw and heard things in the market that made me think they would no longer be able to supply our readers with the level of service and support that you have a right to.

We passed up a LOT of OCZ ad money for years because we had seen them not handle our readers needs well in the past. It took a lot of work and a solid track record for us to even consider allowing them to advertise again.

There are plenty more stories I can tell as well. Anyone who tells you HardOCP is in it for nothing but the money is a liar. It is very much a business though. We have lots of people that have to be paid. Most of our writers get paid more than 95% (and that is a guess on my part, but I do have a fairly good knowledge of the industry in this manner) of the rest of the persons in this industry that do the same work. I expect a lot of them and they deliver.

As to the person that mentioned full system reviews above at H Consumer, we lost a little over a quarter million dollars of investment trying to make that work. Ad companies flat out told us, "Your reviews are too critical. We can spend the ad money elsewhere and get a glowing review and an award to put on the box." I gave it two years, and I was hoping to change the industry.....I failed, my business model failed, but that is all. Our Austin office wrote stellar content which I am still extremely proud of. They fully succeeded in everything I asked them to do and I think they were a beacon in the industry for a couple of years. They DID change things. I see our type of policies being adopted by big companies now. But I digress...

 

[DSessom]

I for one think Kyle was absolutely in the right, and applaud his questioning of the PR claims and even for posting them for the public. From my experience running a tech site, I can fully understand Kyle's position and reasons for doing what he did. Kyle doesn't do things like this for the sake of a publicity stunt. [H] doesn't need publicity. It's already one of the largest and most popular tech sites. He simply called a bluff and the PR guys obviously weren't familiar enough with Kyle to know that he is well known for calling BS on outragious claims and hype. They learned the [H]ard way.

At any rate, it's nice to know that there are still people like Kyle out there that don't get sucked in by the hype of new products, and don't do hardware reviews just to get free hardware - which 90% of tech sites out there do. I know this first hand.

Thanks Kyle. You still DA MAN.

-Dwayne Sessom
Former owner, PCExtreme.net

 

[FrgMstr]

Hmm... a 'respected' journalist turns to shouting and screaming.
You do realise your arguments amount to little more than favouritism? You do realise what yyou have just said is 'I like those other companies better so I dont like being an ass to them?'

You argument would only work if any of the aformentioned claims were reasonable, or objective claims. To sau 'no one comes close' in a low margin industry is plain rubbish - you cant say your wonderful xperience with this comapny has *proven* this claim to be true and that therefore you dont feel compelled to quesiton it. All 4 claims are subjective rubbish. All four would fail to stand up under closer scrutiny, yet you chose to call the little guy on it and leave the rest alone.

This is all fact. I almost capitalised that word for your benefit. Does the following make my argument stronger BTW?: it is FACT you are wrong FACT what you have failed ot see is the FACTS see the recurring hteme here? I am so suprised you are a journalist. I thought much more highly of you until this commadore spectacle.

Your thoughts are noted. And like many in your position, you will move onto some other facet of the argument instead of addressing the one at hand. That is the signature of a forum troll. Don't address the facts and discussion, just keep making things up and posting them. The little red X up in the corner of the screen will wash you of all your issues. But we do thank you for reading.

 

[cefoskey]

Why not take their machine? They said itd be a few weeks, then ok. Dont escalate the situation; wouldnt it be more effective to actually get the system and call their bluff in a professional and official [H] review? You get the machine, test it, publish their results then you can say:

"Commodore machines blatantly do not live up to their marketing claims. Their PR was uncooperative in their handling of my requests for information up front, but we waited for their test system and were unimpressed with its performance. I can say from my experience with their PR group and their hardware that I would not suggest buying their product."

Then there you'd have it, Kyle and [H] doing its job of reviewing hardware for the readers and allowing us to make a more informed decision, instead of this situation we are in now where we still dont know the actual performance and Commodore's PR guy has put them in a bad way. Like I said before, I thought this was the business model of hardware review sites - you put products through their paces to either substantiate or disprove marketing claims and allow the reader to make an informed decision without having to plunk down the cash and be disappointed. You get the system to review for free, it costs a marginal amount of money to go through with the test, you drive traffic with a well written review, and get more money from advertisers. Right?

 

[FrgMstr]

Why not take their machine? They said itd be a few weeks, then ok. Dont escalate the situation; wouldnt it be more effective to actually get the system and call their bluff in a professional and official [H] review? You get the machine, test it, publish their results then you can say:

"Commodore machines blatantly do not live up to their marketing claims. Their PR was uncooperative in their handling of my requests for information up front, but we waited for their test system and were unimpressed with its performance. I can say from my experience with their PR group and their hardware that I would not suggest buying their product."

Then there you'd have it, Kyle and [H] doing its job of reviewing hardware for the readers and allowing us to make a more informed decision, instead of this situation we are in now where we still dont know the actual performance and Commodore's PR guy has put them in a bad way. Like I said before, I thought this was the business model of hardware review sites - you put products through their paces to either substantiate or disprove marketing claims and allow the reader to make an informed decision without having to plunk down the cash and be disappointed. You get the system to review for free, it costs a marginal amount of money to go through with the test, you drive traffic with a well written review, and get more money from advertisers. Right?

They said it would be a few MONTHS. Hardly addresses the issues at hand.

 

[FadedSpark]

As a long-time reader of HardOCP and poster on HardForums I find this article not up to the standards of HardOCP.

Kyle, there was a way to go about solving this problem, and the way you did it was not only incorrect but makes you come off like a pompous blow-hard and reflects badly on the image of Hard OCP. I understand where you were coming from, but the guy DID offer to have you speak with a Tech and you refused. He DID offer to send you a unit and you refused. At that point, the article stops being about the technology at all and it becomes about your beef with a PR guy and frankly, it makes you look bad as well as unprofessional. Notice, I'm not talking about your willingness to pursue facts. I'm talking about journalistic professionalism and outright rudeness.

If Alienware, Dell, AMD or nVidia had made these claims on a system/piece of hardware you would not have responded the way you did and you CERTAINLY would not have posted it on your site as an article. That's just not impartial.

I also find it unprofessional that you seem to degrade and/or completely trash anyone who disagrees with you. It just reinforces the point about your lack of professionalism.

That's my opinion, though.

I like the site and the forums, I just hope you think twice about posting stuff like this in the future.

Does anyone remember when ATI tried to spin some PR crap about Crossfire to Kyle? Kyle shot their claims of it outperforming SLi down, and they provided him a pre-public devkit. the review went up, CF sucked, and Kyle vowed never to post free PR for ATi again, no more pre retail review kits, nothing. so yes, Kyle DOES do the same for anyone.

 

[magoo]

lol if that isnt capitulation I dont know what is. You pride yourelf on your uncoruptability and like to take the moral high ground, even try and *show off* how much you *protect* your readership with pieces such as these.

However the truth of all this is that you have simply chosen a business model. Dont get me wrong, it works well. Create an image for yourself as a hardass, provide objective reviews, and be selective in the advertisers you take. All very effective in gaining a readership and money. We arent all stupid - saying you have 'lost' money for not running some adverts is like the labour ('democrat') party saying they 'lost' money as they wont accept cash from neo-nazi groups.

You have a successful business, with a good niche placement in the industry. Well done. Just dont expect all of us into be fooled in to thinking you are our protector, a god amongst men. Worst of all, dont start to believe it yourself. You are a businessman. Just like google get flak over china, so you deserve flak for articles such as these. They diminish the image you have built as being impartial, for they pick on the little guys.

You want proof of fairness???? Of considering all the angles????
1) BFG has already been mentioned
2) A long time ago EVGA came out with a highly touted GPU cooler (ABS or something like that) it was not as advertised and [H] told us so......this lead to some wonderful drama, but eventually EVGA is back, sending data,supplying material for testing and getting good marks.
3) I believe Newegg's partner ABS computer got less than stellar reviews on their pre-builts, but htier CEO was in a great interview forum speaking to just that.
4) Monarch went down in flames, and I'm sure spent a good deal here.
5) ABIT has stunk the place out until recently, they still send in material for review and are now getting good reviews, but hardly in the past.
6) PC P&C got spanked.
7)Phantom consoles got spanked just like Commodore. All talk and no walk to the point of lawyers and Federal Court.

Sir, you need to look at the past before you speak......I pulled the above off the top of my head. The reason I come here is because I enjoy my computer hobby to the fullest. I enjoy reading and learning from people who know their stuff. I respect honesty. I detest bullshit and people who can never back up their statements with fact, no matter what the topic.
The world is full of politically correct mamby pambies.
Kyle Bennett is a breath of fresh air. I only wish he worked the White House for CNN.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

Hmm... a 'respected' journalist turns to shouting and screaming.
You do realise your arguments amount to little more than favouritism? You do realise what yyou have just said is 'I like those other companies better so I dont like being an ass to them?'

First off, Kyle is a hardware enthusiast. And if favoritism can be defined as accepting ad dollars from vendors that actually cooperate with Kyle's requests to see data and sample products to test and evaluate in a timely manner, and make good on their word, then I guess there's a lot of favoritism going on all over the place. Newspapers, magazines, blogs everywhere, and other tech sites must all be out there playing favorites. Hell, even you're probably guilty of it. But hey, what do I know? Six months? Do you have any idea what hardware is coming out in six months, or have you been living in a cave? It's without a doubt as to why they want to wait - FASTER HARDWARE! An opportunity to get in on the good stuff before the competition starts shifting over to it. How else can you even try to come close to making wild claims like 30% faster without an overclock? You wait until the new shit rolls out. DUH-HUURRR-HURRR!!

You argument would only work if any of the aformentioned claims were reasonable, or objective claims. To sau 'no one comes close' in a low margin industry is plain rubbish - you cant say your wonderful xperience with this comapny has *proven* this claim to be true and that therefore you dont feel compelled to quesiton it. All 4 claims are subjective rubbish. All four would fail to stand up under closer scrutiny, yet you chose to call the little guy on it and leave the rest alone.

So what you're saying is, Kyle should still piss on everyone despite the fact they roll out the red carpet for him and others who can attest to their great experiences? Companies that go the extra mile to differentiate themselves from say, the schmucks at Best Buy, should be thrown under the bus to keep things fair? You're saying that he should be saying things like "My experience was awesome, because I'm Kyle Bennett, but watch out! They'll shit all over YOU!" Awesome. I hope you secret shop my store so you can get some unwanted people shitcanned with that kind of attitude.

This is all fact. I almost capitalised that word for your benefit. Does the following make my argument stronger BTW?: it is FACT you are wrong FACT what you have failed ot see is the FACTS see the recurring hteme here? I am so suprised you are a journalist. I thought much more highly of you until this commadore spectacle.

He's not a journalist. He's a hardware enthusiast. Nothing about what you've said is fact. The only thing you can say about Kyle is that he wasn't 'professional' about handling a PR rep. Whoop dee fucking do. He's human, and humans get angry when they're offended. If you're going to nail him to the cross for being human, well, I guess Home Depot's got you pegged on a first name basis for your lumber needs, because you sir, have a lot of nailing and crosses to put up.

 

[TheBoss68]

If you were buying a new set of tires for your family car, and the salesman told you these tires bested every other national brand by 30%, and you asked him to qualify that statment with writen documentation, and his reply was "I can stick a set on your car and let you test them yourself." Would you really be foolish enough to do that? Granted I undetstand this camparison carries with it safety issue that you won't find in PC's. Kyle's point is nothing more than the fact that Dave did his best to side step the question at hand and put Kyle under the microscope first. I am not one that see's airing dirty laundry in public is needed or wanted by many. But still........All Kyle asked for was some kind of documentation to verify the claims. Would it have been so hard for Dave to just fire a phone call to a tech and have it faxed, problem solved. So what if it's bloated with crap atleast he was ready to give the masses what was asked of them. I have read a few post that seem to hang Kyle for going against the grain on this. I think all those poeple have lost touch with what reality really is. The world is not canned, although many would like it to be, it is in fact unique for all. We all have our opions and reasons for them. I have faith in you Kyle, Rock on Man!!!

 

[Xilikon]

I'm amazed at the sheer amount of trolls who flame Kyle instead of understanding the whole context.

I got a perfect example to help understand Kyle's reaction (something based on my rl experience) :

-I entered a Subaru dealer to look at a Impreza Wagon I'm interested to buy. The first salesman came to me after 15 mins of wandering (very slow for my tasts) and asked what I'm looking so I said what I wanted to buy. The first reply he said is "It's too expensive for your wallet, please look at a Suzuki Swift+ (It's a Subaru/Suzuki dealer). This reply made me decide to say bye and leave very fast ! During the whole time, I'm very serious and I can afford them... This is the same with the "Are you serious ?" answer. No need to say that I avoid this dealer like plague since then and recommend friends against them.

-On the other hand, I entered a Infiniti dealer when I was young. I was just curious and wanted to take a test drive for fun (I cannot obviously afford them). A salesman came and asked what I'm looking and I said that I wanted to try that G20 for fun and he got the key for his demo car and handed to me without asking questions. I'm impressed and after the ride, I said that it's a very nice ride but I cannot afford them. That's when the salesman said to me : "I'm aware you may not be able to afford them but the only thing we care is customer satisfaction. While you might not buy this car, you might say how impressive the ride is to others and this will translate to new potential buyers". That's exactly how customers should be threated !!

I hope those examples will shed some light on the whole PR blunder.

 

[theDreamer]

Not much to comment here.
Kyle did fine in his questions and response, and as an enthusiasts I do not want a company to just be let into the fight without proper testing, data, results. If a company is saying they have achieved certain results in their labs why not let it go to the reviewers so the public can see these outstanding results? Do not make a claim and then back out of providing data, or a working test model of the product.

 

[TheBoss68]

I entered a Infiniti dealer when I was young. I was just curious and wanted to take a test drive for fun (I cannot obviously afford them). A salesman came and asked what I'm looking and I said that I wanted to try that G20 for fun and he got the key for his demo car and handed to me without asking questions. I'm impressed and after the ride, I said that it's a very nice ride but I cannot afford them. That's when the salesman said to me : "I'm aware you may not be able to afford them but the only thing we care is customer satisfaction. While you might not buy this car, you might say how impressive the ride is to others and this will translate to new potential buyers". That's exactly how customers should be threated !!

I hope those examples will shed some light on the whole PR blunder.

This drives the point home. All kyle wanted was customer satisfaction instead he was given a PR smoke screen.

 

[wtburnette]

You judge commadore by the half published acts of one individual in an external PR firm? Were they to have a product competetively priced, which was built well and backed with high quality internal service, would you not reccomend them because of this article, which says little or nothing about commodre? Dont get me wrong - they may be total rubbish. But to judge them top to bottom on this article?

I do judge them based on their PR firms failure to back up claims the company espouses. At this point, it would take a lot for Commodore to make it onto my recommended list. Not to say it couldn't happen. They could contact the [H] and make it right, either by saying the PR firm acted without their consent, by proving what was stated, or something I haven't thought of. Or I could hear through word of mouth and through reviews online that they are worth recommending. Based on what I've heard so far though, my opinion of them is that I wouldn't recommend them. Not saying that opinion couldn't or wouldn't ever change.

 

[zoulias]

You want proof of fairness???? Of considering all the angles????
1) BFG has already been mentioned
2) A long time ago EVGA came out with a highly touted GPU cooler (ABS or something like that) it was not as advertised and [H] told us so......this lead to some wonderful drama, but eventually EVGA is back, sending data,supplying material for testing and getting good marks.
3) I believe Newegg's partner ABS computer got less than stellar reviews on their pre-builts, but htier CEO was in a great interview forum speaking to just that.
4) Monarch went down in flames, and I'm sure spent a good deal here.
5) ABIT has stunk the place out until recently, they still send in material for review and are now getting good reviews, but hardly in the past.
6) PC P&C got spanked.
7)Phantom consoles got spanked just like Commodore. All talk and no walk to the point of lawyers and Federal Court.

Sir, you need to look at the past before you speak......I pulled the above off the top of my head. The reason I come here is because I enjoy my computer hobby to the fullest. I enjoy reading and learning from people who know their stuff. I respect honesty. I detest bullshit and people who can never back up their statements with fact, no matter what the topic.
The world is full of politically correct mamby pambies.
Kyle Bennett is a breath of fresh air. I only wish he worked the White House for CNN.

Ill reply to his one - much of the posts below are along similar lines.
1) I never stated Kyle has a penchant for biased reviews - I stated his buisness plan relied on the opposite.
2) I have no problem with questioning the 30%. I have a problem with getting arsy over the initial 'leader' claim, and the 'are you serious' response. Kyle has not treated other big name aforementioned companies that make these subjective claims in this manner. In other words he is beating commodore down to get something out of it for himself. Not out of any true concern for the community.
3) Furthermore, I find it extremely hypocritical for someone to say someone else is out of line, when they are themselves out of line. 'he did it first' is no reason to be an asshole; its unproffesional at best.
4) I find it amusing that people thik this half published piece of nothing exchange says all you need to know about a company.
5) Finally, I have never said anything abou the need to be PC, I am not so myself, so dont attribute arguments to me. Acting proffesionally, and being politically correct are two very distinct things. If Kyle was the president, and he started screaming and shouting and saying 'haha! - ill report on you!' every time a politician gave a stereotypical spin response to a question do you think he would be effective in his job or do you think the people he needs to be working with would stop wanting to work with him? The true politician would calmly call out the other guys poor response in a non threatening, logical manner, and work on a beneficial solution. Kyle should have left this whole issue alone, and waitied for a review unit. He has served no ones purpose other than his own in publishing this story - some people on here are merely to flag-wavy to notice that.

 

[theDreamer]

zoulias,

The problem I see is that they are coming into the upper end gaming community of pre-built systems and making high claims about how good their systems are. That is great, more competition, lower prices maybe?, better performance, but when a company makes these claims with zero data, results, or any sort of proof. It puts a bad spotlight on them as if they are just trying to get press for their release.

Kyle has to be hard on any new company that comes into the business, or any for that matter who want to be at the top. If you want to be the best you have to prove yourself through customer support, reviews at the top level (one of which is here), show you can claim and prove things, plus more.

 

[AceGoober]

This article is one of the many reasons why [H]ard|OCP is set as my homepage: no fluff, just bare proven facts.

"Dave" tried to feed Kyle a load of crap and wanted to make him believe it was a fictitious rose garden. The bluff was called and the PR doofus cowered away with his tail between his legs.

Keep up the excellent work [H]!

 

[TheBoss68]

Ill reply to his one - much of the posts below are along similar lines.
1) I never stated Kyle has a penchant for biased reviews - I stated his buisness plan relied on the opposite.
2) I have no problem with questioning the 30%. I have a problem with getting arsy over the initial 'leader' claim, and the 'are you serious' response. Kyle has not treated other big name aforementioned companies that make these subjective claims in this manner. In other words he is beating commodore down to get something out of it for himself. Not out of any true concern for the community.
3) Furthermore, I find it extremely hypocritical for someone to say someone else is out of line, when they are themselves out of line. 'he did it first' is no reason to be an asshole; its unproffesional at best.
4) I find it amusing that people thik this half published piece of nothing exchange says all you need to know about a company.
5) Finally, I have never said anything abou the need to be PC, I am not so myself, so dont attribute arguments to me. Acting proffesionally, and being politically correct are two very distinct things. If Kyle was the president, and he started screaming and shouting and saying 'haha! - ill report on you!' every time a politician gave a stereotypical spin response to a question do you think he would be effective in his job or do you think the people he needs to be working with would stop wanting to work with him? The true politician would calmly call out the other guys poor response in a non threatening, logical manner, and work on a beneficial solution. Kyle should have left this whole issue alone, and waitied for a review unit. He has served no ones purpose other than his own in publishing this story - some people on here are merely to flag-wavy to notice that.

You know I have been reading the [H] daily for the last 7 years. And everytime Kyle has asked someone to qualify a remark they made, if their response was like that of Dave, then Kyle did the same thing he did this time. If they gave what he asked for, he let it go.
If kyle were to change the way he did things then just as many of you would hang him for not being true to himself, or his readers. The simple fact is, if any of us had been in Kyle's shoes, and we were asked "Are you serious?" over something of this nature, I bet ya dollars to doughnuts that a very select few of us would have done nothing different. And as far as what would Kyle do if he was the pres.? Well these are two entirely different issues. Do i think he would call a smoke blowing polititian a smoke blowing politian? Damn straight he would, as would myself and all those that share my feelings. But this is about Commadors claim of 30% better with no proof. To all those blasting Kyle over this, if this does turn out to be nothing more than false claims and pure PR BS then I see alot of crow being served. Kyle, keep putting them under the spotlight man, if they run at the first sign of questions, then there must be something wrong. An honest man never runs from the truth. I am of the C64 generation I loved the thing, still have it, it still works, but I have seen nothing from them since. In todays world if you stop selling systems for 20+ years and then expect me to buy your newest offering based on what you made back then. Yeah ok, and if you do your as big a fool as Dave!

 

[zoulias]

zoulias,

The problem I see is that they are coming into the upper end gaming community of pre-built systems and making high claims about how good their systems are. That is great, more competition, lower prices maybe?, better performance, but when a company makes these claims with zero data, results, or any sort of proof. It puts a bad spotlight on them as if they are just trying to get press for their release.

Kyle has to be hard on any new company that comes into the business, or any for that matter who want to be at the top. If you want to be the best you have to prove yourself through customer support, reviews at the top level (one of which is here), show you can claim and prove things, plus more.

Thats all fair, I dont disagree. It doesnt excuse Kyle in the approach he took in this instance. It should simply have been a case of:

Them: 'Kyle can you post something about our commodore...'
Kyle 'I'd be happy to - but in my ignorance of your product could you please send me some concrete informaiton so that I have somehting worth writing about?'

 

[zoulias]

You know I have been reading the [H] daily for the last 7 years. And everytime Kyle has asked someone to qualify a remark they made, if their response was like that of Dave, then Kyle did the same thing he did this time. If they gave what he asked for, he let it go.
If kyle were to change the way he did things then just as many of you would hang him for not being true to himself, or his readers. The simple fact is, if any of us had been in Kyle's shoes, and we were asked "Are you serious?" over something of this nature, I bet ya dollars to doughnuts that a very select few of us would have done nothing different. And as far as what would Kyle do if he was the pres.? Well these are two entirely different issues. Do i think he would call a smoke blowing polititian a smoke blowing politian? Damn straight he would, as would myself and all those that share my feelings. But this is about Commadors claim of 30% better with no proof. To all those blasting Kyle over this, if this does turn out to be nothing more than false claims and pure PR BS then I see alot of crow being served. Kyle, keep putting them under the spotlight man, if they run at the first sign of questions, then there must be something wrong. An honest man never runs from the truth. I am of the C64 generation I loved the thing, still have it, it still works, but I have seen nothing from them since. In todays world if you stop selling systems for 20+ years and then expect me to buy your newest offering based on what you made back then. Yeah ok, and if you do your as big a fool as Dave!

The ability of some people to somehow miss a point made explicitly is amazing. Why quote me, go on about the 30%, and ignore the fact that Ive stated explicitly my problem is not with the 30% issue? Why would anyone have egg on their face if commodore cant live up to the 30% claim? None of this is anything to do with their claims. It is all to do with Kyles approach. Go ahead and miss that point again; feel free to quote this, and go on about how Kyle killed phantom/monarch..you just make yourself look the fool.

 

[Worldhammer]

I have said it on here before and now find myself saying it again.

It is sad, yet somewhat amusing how many people stomp in and trenchantly defend their right to be told pretty much whatever horseshit.

The fact that other companies have stretched the truth in the past or present does not in any way justify anything! Stop saying that! It is stupid. It is spin. It is avoidance of the facts at hand.

Somehow its all ok cuz Kyle wuz rood!

Grow a brain, or resurrect your own dead one.

Look closer, demand better!

 

[bmango]

Kyle - you are a god among men and yes I would die in battle for you.

Screw the pansy boys that want you to be idiots like them.

 

[Dr.LaRd]

The ability of some people to somehow miss a point made explicitly is amazing. Why quote me, go on about the 30%, and ignore the fact that Ive stated explicitly my problem is not with the 30% issue? Why would anyone have egg on their face if commodore cant live up to the 30% claim? None of this is anything to do with their claims. It is all to do with Kyles approach. Go ahead and miss that point again; feel free to quote this, and go on about how Kyle killed phantom/monarch..you just make yourself look the fool.

see, and here is the point YOUR missing....

it's kyles site, kyle acts how he wants....if he so chooses to go off on a BS PR....why do you care? why would that affect your life so much so that you have to join a forum and go on multiple posts trying to say how bad it was.....

if you don't like it, don't read it. he is a grown man who owns a very successful company, that he protects by making sure whoever he gets for his adspace, is someplace he could actually buy from.

if you don't like it, i'm sure tomshardware will welcome you with open arms.

 

[spincut]

Jeeze, not everyone who disagrees with the way Kyle handled things is "trolling" him.

As a matter of fact some people made some rather good points how why Kyle could have handled things a tiny bit better, not because the PR guy was right or didnt suck at his job, but because many of us think that had Kyle took that rather limp comments with a grain of salt, the guy may have either ended up answering his question or just dug his own grave without even having to do it by being coaxed into a fight.

I think the "are you serious" comment, while stupid could have been sincere, maybe the guy was really "that" bad at his job, and didnt have the negative connotation EVERYONE is reading from it. After that, having "asked" Kyle is he was bitter, maybe was also an earnest sensitive question, not an "afront and direct personal attack".

I just frankly didnt see any mud slung until kyle made comments about the mans man panties and telling him to quit his whining, even if you think those meek things the PR guy said were "personal insults" it was so veiled that i dont think that last email kyle sent that took the conversation personal and unpostable was dishing out as much as he got.

I dont want to make Kyle angry, as he has been equally short with some of the people pointing this out. I mean the PR guy ended up being a total douche, but i think that the conversation could have been more grown up, and i think that Kyle could have made that happen (this is a compliment, implying Kyle had the capability and capacity of taking the high road a little longer).

Lastly, i do remember that Kyle did some reviews about Dell, and clearly does not advertise for them, but i do remember a piece that seemed a little 'fluffy" where he went to Dell HQ and lamented about some of the fabulous improvements Dell was implementing in their tech support.

Well i am curious, has Dell ever send any PR requests recently. Because I think they definetly need a dose of this, i mean they are already guilty of mentally violating over half the users on this site alone with their insultingly bad support amongst other things.

I hope the next time a Dell PR request comes your way you really crap them up and hold their feet to the fire, heck i do it whenever i call them up (not because i'm a total asshole, but they usually have it coming).

 

[Trepidati0n]

Actually, US tech support for Dell is pretty damn good. Just have to have the right type of PC and phone numbe to get it.

 

[Dr.LaRd]

Actually, US tech support for Dell is pretty damn good. Just have to have the right type of PC and phone numbe to get it.

i have a government job, and we've just recently switched to dell....and 2 out of 4 calls were a "local" call....however, 1 of the times the guy had a strong french accent, so it might as well have been from overseas

 

[Servant of Shodan]

I’ve read all the posts here – there are quite a lot actually – some are trolls, some are sycophants, some are rationally stating their thoughts… I have a few questions:

Kyle has steadfastly defended his position. It is after all, his site, his way, his philosophy – nobody can argue with that.

1) My first question for Kyle is: Do you accept the possibility that Dave’s first, “Are you serious?” was in fact sincere, and that he may have known exactly who you are, and was surprised that a well-known hardware DIY enthusiast was taking interest in Commodore?

Here’s why I ask: For my regular full-time job, I sell pianos for a living. I sell Steinway & Sons, Boston, and Essex pianos. All are designed by Steinway, they’re all great in their respective price categories, but each one has a specific target market. Now, if Billy Joel, or Elton John, or Lang Lang, or any international piano super star walked into my store, passed the very best Steinway we have, which is $107,000, and said, “I want to check out the performance of your $28,000 Boston piano,” my response may very well be, “Are you serious?” NOT because I think the person doesn’t have the money, but because I am so shocked they are paying attention to a product I would have thought completely outside their scope of interest.

If I worked at Commodore, and Kyle Bennett of [H]ard|OCP called or emailed me, I would be surprised and shocked too.

2) Second question for Kyle is: Do you think you were rude to Dave? I am not asking for comparison of who called who names, or who inferred this or that, well he started it, etc… Were you rude to Dave?

The reason I ask this question, is that you seem so surprised and perplexed that your (in your words, “simple”) requests escalated the exchange to such a degree. I haven’t seen any indication from you that you contributed to the incident.

People respect you and the [H] for your honesty, objectivity, and integrity in your reviews. I guess what I am saying is that, this episode really doesn’t feel like the [H] we know. Quite honestly, I don’t think you approached this matter with the same objectivity and integrity that your reviews show.

3) Finally: Do you think you could/should have handled this matter differently? Or would you do it all again the same way?

 

[Dr.LaRd]

servant of shodan, i'm not even going to attempt to speak for kyle, but in response to your first one question at least....

are you also able to table the idea that maybe the guy was actually being a smart ass? i mean, from the responses that i read, things didn't get "out of hand" until after a few replies by both sides...i mean, it may have set the tone for future disagreements. However, if dave is professional, and trying to sell his clients business, and didn't mean it in the way it seems it was taken, why wouldn't he try to smooth things out? why wouldn't he try and be as open and helpful as he can be?

it wasn't just the fact that he said are you serious, it was also further down before kyle mentioned about things getting personal that i also noticed something that could have been seen as pissy coming from dave....he also said " I’m the PR guy and not an engineer."

that to me reeks of smugness....we all know you are dave the pr guy, we don't need it to be repeated. he does go on and say that he can setup a meeting with an engineer, but then goes on and tries to give the snowjob about picking the best and matching it with the best....in the back of my mind i'm thinking, isn't that why we have hardware reviews? so we can get an idea of what works best? why doesn't anyone else with off the shelf hardware post these great numbers?

and again, i'm not speaking for anyone but myself, but i don't see why anyone would say they want to stop reading [H], or think less of it, because the owner made public something that quite frankly, should be known.

i don't want to buy something from a company (regardless if it's their fault or not) that hires people like dave. regardless of what was said by either side, dave should have remained calm and if there is anyone to blame for it getting out of hand it would be him (dave). you are representing a large company that is trying to enter into a cuthroat market....you take the lumps and move on. kyle doesn't have the same responsibilities that dave would, so therefore he can be afforded the leeway....

it all goes back to any retail analogies, because the retail sales/staff/technicians can't fight back, they're not supposed to or their fired. no matter how bad the customer is, you CANNOT make a fool of yourself, or the company....no if's and's or but's....instead, dave decided to follow through with any subsequent arguing....

basically, we know kyle can do whatever he wants, but dave cannot....if he does, he feels it from the "powers that be"....is it right kyle continued with arguing? is a customer at a store right if they FEEL they've been cheated and fight to make things right? the worst part, is [H] isn't even the customer, it's the portal for which the PR was going to be released!

we're getting into territory here that is borderline....and people will agree and disagree....but i honestly don't believe this article takes away from any credibility from [H]....just because kyle fought for what he believes in.

 

[Servant of Shodan]

Good post, Dr.LaRd. That seems like the other perspective of what I’ve posted, and I agree that your take on it is 100% possible.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

Ill reply to his one - much of the posts below are along similar lines.
1) I never stated Kyle has a penchant for biased reviews - I stated his buisness plan relied on the opposite.

You also say a lot of things.
.

2) I have no problem with questioning the 30%. I have a problem with getting arsy over the initial 'leader' claim, and the 'are you serious' response. Kyle has not treated other big name aforementioned companies that make these subjective claims in this manner. In other words he is beating commodore down to get something out of it for himself. Not out of any true concern for the community.

Name me a company that has sent a PR rep to Kyle, giving this same opening scenario and posing that same question, and the only difference of the outcome was Kyle giving a more 'professional' response. You won't. Why? Because companies with half a brain amongst their staff would hire someone reputable and semi knowledgable to represent them before someone with even HALF of Kyle's status. Sure, they spout their fair share of BS. But the difference is, they came through on their word. Dave did not.

3) Furthermore, I find it extremely hypocritical for someone to say someone else is out of line, when they are themselves out of line. 'he did it first' is no reason to be an asshole; its unproffesional at best.

And if someone pointed a gun at you and emptied a clip in your general direction, how much of your civilized professionalism are you going to retain? Try none. Granted, it's not the same situation, but the bottom line is, if someone comes off as hostile towards you, you're going to defend yourself accordingly, and not give a damn about the means in which you do. It's a natural human reaction.

4) I find it amusing that people thik this half published piece of nothing exchange says all you need to know about a company.

First impressions are lasting ones. Dave couldn't have given a worse first impression if he cussed Kyle out. Besides, if the company is willing to hire some schmuck like this to approach Kyle, that in itself speaks plenty about the company's corner cutting. Oh, and let's also note that the company has yet to even speak on their own behalf in regards to this. Other companies have representatives in these very FORUMS.

5) Finally, I have never said anything abou the need to be PC, I am not so myself, so dont attribute arguments to me. Acting proffesionally, and being politically correct are two very distinct things. If Kyle was the president, and he started screaming and shouting and saying 'haha! - ill report on you!' every time a politician gave a stereotypical spin response to a question do you think he would be effective in his job or do you think the people he needs to be working with would stop wanting to work with him? The true politician would calmly call out the other guys poor response in a non threatening, logical manner, and work on a beneficial solution. Kyle should have left this whole issue alone, and waitied for a review unit. He has served no ones purpose other than his own in publishing this story - some people on here are merely to flag-wavy to notice that.

Please note that it wasn't calling BS on the spin. It was a failure to produce evidence to support said spin that resulted in the BS call. Kyle gave them an opportunity to support their claims. They didn't back it up. Even if it's still BS in the end, it doesn't change the fact that they have documented proof of how they got it, if they sent it. The crooked cop in Training Day said it best: It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

But I would trust Kyle to call bullshit on anything from politics to gas prices to whatever the hell can be perceived as bullshit.

As for waiting for a review unit, he was told to wait six months, with no explanation as to why. Why the fuck should any hardware reviewer, hell, a reviewer of anything at all, it could be cow manure for all I care, have to wait six months for a product to be evaluated? Obviously Kyle isn't expecting it to be beamed to his house as soon as he agrees to it, but at the same time, the wait on it is a bit long. Six months? SIX MONTHS!? What if you ordered a new computer and it took six months to build? I call bullshit. The longest I've ever taken to building a computer was 8 hours, and that was because I got stopped in the middle to go run an errand for my mom. What if you went and bought a new car, but were told by the dealership you couldn't have it or drive it for six months afterwards? Wouldn't you be going WTF? I know I would. Hey, maybe you should go to BK and see if they'll make you wait six months for your double whopper. Whatever unit they're sending is representative of the products that the company puts out to customers. Sure it might be 'optimized' for the reviewer, but still, it's the fact that they'd be sending something at all.

As for Kyle's behavior so what? It's his place. Don't like it, leave.

 

[Technoob]

just more lashing out at the people disagreeing with you and coming off like a commenter on digg or fark, rather than the industry badass I always saw you as. Kind of a shameful degeneration really.

Still love your site, and doubt you care at all, but this was posted and has an open commentary, so I'm commenting. Other sites would probably close the comments the minute someone criticized the site admin.

 

[zoulias]

see, and here is the point YOUR missing....

it's kyles site, kyle acts how he wants....if he so chooses to go off on a BS PR....why do you care? why would that affect your life so much so that you have to join a forum and go on multiple posts trying to say how bad it was.....

if you don't like it, don't read it. he is a grown man who owns a very successful company, that he protects by making sure whoever he gets for his adspace, is someplace he could actually buy from.

if you don't like it, i'm sure tomshardware will welcome you with open arms.

1) How did I miss that point when Id already commended him on it?
2) I care because (like Kyle, apparently) I like to call BS when I see it. In this case, that this was some kind of moral high ground story.
3) I joined this forum a while back, has nothing to do with this. Did you even check that before making a comment on it?
4) Do you ever feel yourself sick of being a mindless sycophant? If you are going to back someone up, fine - if youre going to go about doing that based on nothing other than the fact he is the alpha male, then I feel sorry for you.

 

[zoulias]

just more lashing out at the people disagreeing with you and coming off like a commenter on digg or fark, rather than the industry badass I always saw you as. Kind of a shameful degeneration really.

Still love your site, and doubt you care at all, but this was posted and has an open commentary, so I'm commenting. Other sites would probably close the comments the minute someone criticized the site admin.

Agree with that - on the one hand he and others are just digging holes for themselves, on the other I respect the factr I havent been modded to oblivion.

 

[zoulias]

Samurai - Im no forum master and cant deal with multiple quote stuff. I was thinking baou tfiguring it out, whilst thinking if there was ny actual point in any of your comments.
I then got to the 'gun to your mouth' analogy and realised you must have been joking all along. You arent really suggesting that defending ones life agianst physical violence is remotely similar to the way one should behave in the face of a childish verbal comment?

When someone provokes you intending to get a reaction, the stupidest thing you can do is react. Most people find this obvious.

 

[Dr.LaRd]

1) How did I miss that point when Id already commended him on it?
2) I care because (like Kyle, apparently) I like to call BS when I see it. In this case, that this was some kind of moral high ground story.
3) I joined this forum a while back, has nothing to do with this. Did you even check that before making a comment on it?
4) Do you ever feel yourself sick of being a mindless sycophant? If you are going to back someone up, fine - if youre going to go about doing that based on nothing other than the fact he is the alpha male, then I feel sorry for you.

1) please tell me, where, in the post you had i was referring to where you were "commending him" on "it"? - would this "it" be doing what he wants because it's his site and he doesn't actually have to answer to anyone's differing opinion? because i can totally see that you've got a base understanding of that

2) "moral high ground story"? why can't he go through the exchanges and come out and say what he said about making the readers aware of what happened? i personally like how it was handled, you see things differently, so what, you're going to try and change my mind?

3) i don't really care when you joined or how many posts you have. but 42 posts (at time of writing this) since 2005 and pretty active in this thread.....ok, let me rephrase it....you only started writing in the forums again so you can whine about what you perceive to be wrong. better?

4) i'm a mindless sycophant am i? Please tell me (with all the FACTS you have) where i've just blindly followed anyone's response about this, please. I see this situation differently than you and i don't have a problem with expressing it. why would i not want to "stick up" for someone who has done a lot for this community? am i going to get anything from it? no, do i expect to? no....but just because i agree with a different view than yours you revert to calling me names.... you can keep the name calling to yourself and grow up.

 

[Dr.LaRd]

just one more thing to add...zoulias - what makes you any sort of authority about whether kyle's actions were "right" or "wrong" to begin with? why even have an argument about it?

ok, your perception of events, and your feelings are that it's wrong. but what about the otherside of the coin, the fact that maybe dave WAS an asshole, and, like i had posted earlier, acted out of line and kyle responded....so where is the problem/argument?

if kyle felt dave was out of line, then thats the action he took....was it wrong? well, from what i see, and many others, not necessarily. was it necessary to do everything that was posted on the front page? probably not....but did he? yes....and it again brings me back to the "if you don't like it, leave" point.

 

[Technoob]

just one more thing to add...zoulias - what makes you any sort of authority about whether kyle's actions were "right" or "wrong" to begin with? why even have an argument about it?

Maybe the fact that Kyle made a public post in his own forum with open comments and invited people in the very article to comment on it? Other than that...no authority at all.