Commodore Rocks...Because I Said So

[Met-AL]

I don't have a long drawn out post with tears or anything, but I do want to say I am glad Kyle calls this kind of stuff on the carpet, its refreshing to see someone say something at face value and maybe not so politically correct.

 

[Stoly]

I've been a reader of the [H] since near the beginning...I've seen Kyle be rude and pick fights on numerous occasions...but this wasn't one of them. If the e-mails were in the correct order and none omitted (until the point Kyle says they were) then he was simply being direct and to the point. How is that "rude" and "picking a fight"?

I've also seen Kyle be rude and pick fights and IMO this is definitly one of them.

 

[altmann]

As a long-time reader of HardOCP and poster on HardForums I find this article not up to the standards of HardOCP.

Kyle, there was a way to go about solving this problem, and the way you did it was not only incorrect but makes you come off like a pompous blow-hard and reflects badly on the image of Hard OCP. I understand where you were coming from, but the guy DID offer to have you speak with a Tech and you refused. He DID offer to send you a unit and you refused. At that point, the article stops being about the technology at all and it becomes about your beef with a PR guy and frankly, it makes you look bad as well as unprofessional. Notice, I'm not talking about your willingness to pursue facts. I'm talking about journalistic professionalism and outright rudeness.

If Alienware, Dell, AMD or nVidia had made these claims on a system/piece of hardware you would not have responded the way you did and you CERTAINLY would not have posted it on your site as an article. That's just not impartial.

I also find it unprofessional that you seem to degrade and/or completely trash anyone who disagrees with you. It just reinforces the point about your lack of professionalism.

That's my opinion, though.

I like the site and the forums, I just hope you think twice about posting stuff like this in the future.

 

[FrgMstr]

I like the site and the forums, I just hope you think twice about posting stuff like this in the future.

Considering the amount of page hits it is getting, this is exactly what people want to read. Certainly a good aside to all the tech reviews. And personally it is a lot more fun to write.

 

[techie81]

Good read Kyle! If you pissing people off your doing something right.

 

[Deleted member 133315]

I am showing my age here, but I will admit i F'KIN Loved my Commy's the only thing that bugged me was the game crashing 3/4 quarters the way threw loading via the tape, especially if it was one of that games that you had to turn the tape over onto the other side to continue install, well technically not installing but loading.

I had numerous Commy's from a Vic20 then to a massive Commy 64 then onto my Fav, Commy Amiga 512 but with an added boost under the hood, an added 512kb of addon ram and it was about the size of a low profile videocard and just slotted underneath the computer after you had to fight with this plastic door kinda thing.

BEAUTIFUL, but then nothing beats my very first computer which was a spectrum 48k with blue rubber keys, that my techie friends was a piece of SHIT, so i moved onto the 128k+ with built in tape deck, a BUILT IN TAPEDECK and I even purchased a lightpen so I coud pretend to draw all over my tv and make myself go blind by the age of 8

Commodore FTW, I dont care who doesnt like them, those who dont like them either never grew up with them or dont know WTF they are, considering the amigas are still used in some situations and i had my one about 20+ years ago :|

They should be classed as pieces of art commodores now.

 

[xxaaqq]

I meant "represent" rather than "benefit" - sorry but I can't seem to find the "edit" functionality this time around. Disabled systemwide? Or just in this thread?

 

[Servant of Shodan]

Pretty disappointed here… you went way too hard on the guy, Kyle. Of course their PR department is going to spout endless streams of shit – that’s what they do for heaven’s sake! It's like the joke, “How do you tell when a lawyer is lying; If his mouth is open.”

First, you were completely sarcastic. If that’s “just your way,” fine; but don’t get surprised when people get offended and then don’t want to play nice with you. I would have answered your first email in almost exactly the same way as Dave did.

Then, when you asked him to prove on paper what the Commodore execs told him to say, and then when he offered to let you see for yourself, you turned him down and acted like you were offended that he DARE to offer such a thing. Seriously, would you have believed anything on that paper? Intel, Apple, Dell – all of these guys dish out tons of papers with their own skewed benchmarks showing how their product beats the others by incredible, fantastical margins. Do we take any of these papers seriously? No! So why on earth would you demand to see such a paper from Commodore, knowing full well, that in your eyes it would be meaningless drivel!?

You went into this with a bad attitude, and like a self-fulfilling prophesy, you got exactly what you expected [ensured would happen].

You write great reviews, but this type of stuff… just keep it at home man. The only people who get a kick out of it are the sycophants.

 

[Grimmda]

I came right from reading the article to posting this message:

YOU ROCK MAN! Well written and said, here here!

 

[bigstusexy]

I agree with you kyle, if you are going to boast about it you should be able to back it up. I don't know PR people personally but this seemed like a bad thing from the start. You never answer someone question like that, you always treat them as serious.

Imagin if someone took that PR release and printed it? What then.

 

[Xrave]

There are two issues here.

1. Questioning the claims
2. Making it public

For the first issue, Kyle definitely did the right thing by asking for the testing data. You can't say that your machine beats all competition by 30% in an "official" benchmarking utility and not have the data. There must be something somewhere that allows you to calculate that percentage and a list of what it was tested against.

Everyone should agree with this and agree that the PR guy should have given him the info.

Now the second issue is the actual problem. Should this email chain be made public? I personally enjoyed reading about it, but I probably would have waited to post something if the Commodore people slandered [H] publicly in some way. I don't really feel the need to post a private email correspondence unless the issue arrised where it was necessary.

A simple news piece on the front page would have been sufficient with a note added to it that there wasn't any data readily available to back up the claim.

 

[snakeeyes]

Maybe Kyle should write a “how to guide" for PR types...

Lessons for PR guys when dealing with [H] (and other computer enthusiast sites):

• Visit the review site before you respond to any messages so that you will know something about your counterpart in the conversation.
• Know something about the site and the Editor's personality that you are going to engage.
• When the Editor asks you a simple, direct question, reply with a straight forward answer, not an attack.
• Don't make unreasonable, statements about the company you represent.
• Don't make obviously misleading claims about the company's product either.
• Never engage in conversational email, pick up the phone and talk to the Editor “live”, not in voice mail.
• Prepare for the questions and challenges that you will receive beforehand, i.e., have the data in hand.
• Don't take any challenges offered personally, maintain your professionalism (well, if you have any).
• Know beforehand that you are on the record with every comment that you make, so think before pressing the send button, or speaking into the voice mail recorder.

 

[Tokamak]

Then, when you asked him to prove on paper what the Commodore execs told him to say,

Doesn't matter whether PR or management says it, the company has to back it up.

and then when he offered to let you see for yourself, you turned him down and acted like you were offended that he DARE to offer such a thing.

Dave never said what config he'd send or what it was compared to, and 3 months is a long time, plus the month to review it properly, on Kyle's dime. 4 months is almost a vid card generation.

Seriously, would you have believed anything on that paper? Intel, Apple, Dell – all of these guys dish out tons of papers with their own skewed benchmarks showing how their product beats the others by incredible, fantastical margins.

Doesn't matter if he believed it, the important thing is that it exists and is testable.

 

[subgeek]

the opposite of "direct" is not "polite."

i'm glad that ridiculous claims are called. i don't run kyle's site, so the fact that he chooses to pepper his statements with a little aggression and/or flamebait is his decision. i think it would be possible to be direct without adding a little confrontation to the tone, but ultimately it's kyle that chooses how he wants to do things. on one hand, it would keep (some) people from claiming he's just looking for a fight. on the other, i'm sure he's had to read a lot of BS and is probably tired of it to an extent.

 

[ianken]

Quite honestly I think both parties behaved like children. The moment you start calleing the other guy names is when you descend to their level.

I expect better from the [H] crew.

 

[FrgMstr]

Quite honestly I think both parties behaved like children. The moment you start calleing the other guy names is when you descend to their level.

I expect better from the [H] crew.

What names did I call him exactly?

He called me bitter, when he had never even spoken to me. He referred to me at "harping," then said I "picking on" his press release. You would freak if you saw the things the guy said in email thread beyond that. And I NEVER attacked him personally in any way.

 

[tnu5]

PR guy? Press releases?

Pft.


30% not oc'd


PFT.

Using the commodore name to sell your new junk.

PPPPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT.

/lips fall off


-chipfast.com - Honest computing!

 

[V3|!UM]

I've been a [H] loyal for quite a few years now. that said there have been plenty of times where i disagreed with what Kyle said or thought.


If i didn't know any better i would say that this is Kyles way of spinning PR for the [H]. i mean look at how many people jumped on this wagon. kudos on a job well done.

Long story short i think this could have been handled in a much nicer and more professional manner, then again it would not have been very [H]ard if you did

After all of this, aside from the PR guy being an unprepared noob i would say that shouldn't stain the name of a company like Commodore. It still has a special Place in many peoples hearts. and until you actually get a box in your hands and run it through the ringer, everything you or they say is just speculation.

 

[Dekoth]

You know, when I first read the article I felt as though Kyle came across with a bit of a chip on his shoulder about the 3rd email. However I held off posting and went and chewed on it a bit then read the article again. While I think the 3rd email from Kyle could have been a little more business oriented and just ignoring the PR guys snippy statements outright, at the same time Commodore PR is basically insulting the entire enthusiast community and places like HardOCP claiming their machine is 30% faster then everyone elses stock and being unwilling to provide the data to back it up. The more I read into "Dave's" email the more infuriating the PR info became to me.

I think unless Commodore is willing to pony up this "Mystery" data that proves they know something the rest of us do not, that Kyle had every right to get short with the guy and basically call BS for what it is. I have been in the situation where someone tried to pull facts out of thin air and make me look like a fool, and my reaction was fairly hostile as well. So my props to Kyle for calling their game for what it was and not playing the 1980's All talk, no Walk just make lots of Bold claims and run over anyone who tries to naysay game.

 

[cefoskey]

Isnt the entire business model of sites like [H] to do reviews on hardware to either prove or debunk claims made by manufacturers? Kyle mentioned he shouldnt have to spend money testing products - but that expenditure is precisely what gives him results for articles, the meat and potatoes of this industry and drives traffic to the site. More traffic means more advertisement money etc etc.

I dont understand why Kyle didnt just take the offer for a machine, test it, then obliterate the company for the line "We are 30% faster" afterwards. Its like turning down the opportunity to make a good story, get more readers, and in the end make more money.

someone explain to me if I am wrong about this.

 

[Xilikon]

Isnt the entire business model of sites like [H] to do reviews on hardware to either prove or debunk claims made by manufacturers? Kyle mentioned he shouldnt have to spend money testing products - but that expenditure is precisely what gives him results for articles, the meat and potatoes of this industry and drives traffic to the site. More traffic means more advertisement money etc etc.

I dont understand why Kyle didnt just take the offer for a machine, test it, then obliterate the company for the line "We are 30% faster" afterwards. Its like turning down the opportunity to make a good story, get more readers, and in the end make more money.

someone explain to me if I am wrong about this.

If you bother to read the whole article, you will see that Kyle asked for data to back his claims and Dave said there will be a machine to review in a *few months*. That's the main issue. If the PR guy can back the claims or send a machine very soon for reviewing, we wouldn't be reading this.

Good reading FTW !

 

[ZenZim]

I have been a [H] reader for a while. Never had an account and obviously never posted in this forum until now. I created an account just to express my opinion on the way Kyle handled this.

“My Readers”, “My site”, “My corner of the market”,”How dare they”....Yes all those are correct, however a true leader would never say such things. Lead by example! The example you have shown is truly a poor reflection of yourself and you should be moderately ashamed.

Yes, your site ranks in the top 17,000. Good for you! I am sure your making a nice chunk of change. Remember how you started out and remember how got you where you are. “Your Devoted Readers”

Articles like this will not keep you in the 17,000 and your mentality on how important you are to the Internet needs a serious adjustment. You are not; and if you went away another site would happily fill in the cracks that used to be [H].

If anyone needs to work on PR it is you. Because you are not relating well to the public and worse your own readers. Which are as you mentioned a very small niche. As such, this niche will continue to thrive with/without [H]. Don't ever forget that it is the community that makes your site thrive and in turn the demographics of that niche is what pays the bills.

I'm sure you don't agree, maybe you can't, but with all the mixed emotions in the forum regarding how you handled the situation, there should be no question that you handled it improperly.

I hope this type of Article never happens again on [H] because for the most part I really consider this one of the top OC'er, and Hardware Review sites.

 

[RogerX]

As a long-time reader of HardOCP and poster on HardForums I find this article not up to the standards of HardOCP.

Kyle, there was a way to go about solving this problem, and the way you did it was not only incorrect but makes you come off like a pompous blow-hard and reflects badly on the image of Hard OCP. I understand where you were coming from, but the guy DID offer to have you speak with a Tech and you refused. He DID offer to send you a unit and you refused. At that point, the article stops being about the technology at all and it becomes about your beef with a PR guy and frankly, it makes you look bad as well as unprofessional. Notice, I'm not talking about your willingness to pursue facts. I'm talking about journalistic professionalism and outright rudeness.
...
I also find it unprofessional that you seem to degrade and/or completely trash anyone who disagrees with you. It just reinforces the point about your lack of professionalism.

That's my opinion, though.

I like the site and the forums, I just hope you think twice about posting stuff like this in the future.

I concur with you completely, but Kyle is always up front about this being his site. Much like Branson runs Virgin and Bush runs the country, he is completely unapologetic about his attitude or the manner in which he conducts himseld. He's a hardware enthusiast who has started several (apparently) successful business projects, enough to afford to support a heavy-duty Hummer hobby and live comfortably with the traditional Texan attitude. There's nothing wrong with that, but people like you and I disagree with how he goes about it merely because we have different experiences and responsibilities. I work for a big company and the kind of terse language Kyle uses would get me into trouble with management if I used it here-- but that's something I accept as part of my job role. Kyle doesn't have to be held to that standard as long as he maintains the relationships required to keep this site fresh and relevent. If you and I believe he fails at this mission and stop visiting the site, clicking the ads and buying his products, that's our business.

As he says, we are welcome to our opinions but we're not paying to use his service, which is true. (However I have always felt we do implicitly pay by virtue of our eyeballs hitting the advertising he gets paid for, but that's a different discussion that will be likely to degenerate quickly. )

 

[Scroatdog]

As a former Commodore 64 fanboy, I was immediately roped in by the article. I cannot begin to estimate the amount of hours I spent playing "Project Stealth Fighter" by Microprose, or Summer Games, or many of the other fantastic games of the day, loaded into my trusty 1541 floppy drive. Ah, those were the days. Using my 1200 baud modem to connect to BBS sites and running my own for a time.....

[/end daydreaming]

I think Kyle was right on. If it smells like a rat, it's a rat. Come on, it would take "months" for them to ship him a test box? Let's not forget the last time Kyle called a spade a spade with the whole Phantom Console, he had to bleed his bank account for court/lawyer fees and the like. Where is the Phantom now? Exactly.

Rock on, Kyle.

P.S. is that 10 gig iPod still rockin' ??

 

[jefigg]

Kyle has always stated facts as facts! Simple. He has earned the respect of me and others!!
You can't just GET Respect...you have to EARN it!!! He Has!!!

 

[DeschutesCore]

I think an element Kyle hasn't truly expressed is he feels betrayed that a company he probably really had his heart in has, in his opinion, gone to crap. He's probably, IMHO, taking it personally. While I don't know Kyle, I've had some interaction with him on the forums, but it was purely technical discussion. I have no real opinion of him, and I'm not defending Kyle or Commodore.
If something I had cherished memories of came calling with "30%" better than all leading brands, evidence should have been supplied up front. Yes, he may have been off base demanding BIOS settings, but Commodore systems are made with off the shelf components. So that can't be it. They have to be doing something magical to get 30% without overclocking.
The only issue I take with Kyle is bringing up the content of the emails without showing them. If the guy said some dick things, and you want to discuss them, you need to present them. If you want us to form an opinion of the PR guy, we need to see what he said.

 

[THRESHIN]

Kyle - skool these ignorant unwashed n00bs! screw being politically correct, its your site and u got the right attitude. if they don't like it they don't have to read it. i've been reading this site since about '99 and i still love it.

while articles like this don't mean much to me, they're still fun to read! rock on!

 

[mekkanic]

hmmm, found some specs on their new PC...doesn't look to much different than what a standard enthusiast can build...

 

[xappie]

I think the PR guy was the one who started on the wrong/aggressive foot with the "are you serious" reply. By saying this, he is implying that you should already know why Commodore is a leader in gaming machines, and shouldn't have to ask. But if that was the case, what was the point of the initial PR release in the first place? Shouldn't it have then said "Commodore - we got another faboo comp coming! Stand by!" and then let it's obvious reputation do the talking?

So my score is
[H] 1
PR 0

Oh, and is this Dave guy the president of that PR company?

 

[cefoskey]

If you bother to read the whole article, you will see that Kyle asked for data to back his claims and Dave said there will be a machine to review in a *few months*. That's the main issue. If the PR guy can back the claims or send a machine very soon for reviewing, we wouldn't be reading this.

Good reading FTW !

good reading indeed...

Who said anything about having to have a machine "very soon" to do a review? So just because it would take a couple months means that he shouldnt do one? They arent even in the US market yet!

 

[Dr.LaRd]

i know this isn't kotaku, but i like their stance on stuff like this...

if you don't like it, thats YOUR PROBLEM....no one else's.....

i can fully understand why kyle is pissed. i know if it were me, and i was asking for more info and was asked if "i was serious" about my question....that would have set me off too...and i would have been a little more sensitive to and future correspondence....

was it handled the "right" way? obviously not to some peoples liking, but you know what? kyle did it his way. if you don't like it, who cares? it isn't YOUR site....you come here to be entertained, if an article doesn't tickle your fancy, move the f*ck on. yes your entitled to your opinion, but in all honesty it doesn't make a difference.

i must say, i would rather have someone like kyle make this type of stand against such blatant BS than try and do it myself....who will listen to one, pretty much anonymous forum member??? but you get someone who runs a site like this....yeah, that makes a difference.

when you run a site such as this, for as long as this, you will (and should) feel as important as kyle mentioned....why the hell not? only the best sites have been around that long.

so to kyle i say: thank you for all that you have done for this community, and myself for running this site...

to the bastard who said anyone who liked this is a sycophant.....kiss my f*cking ass i have a life and mind of my own and i believe this was the right way.

one last thing: don't come on here and say "at my work i would be fired for saying something like that..." thats what happens when you work for a corporation....if you haven't realized, kyle is the boss (or for you to comprehend CEO)....so your point means nothing....actually....take it up with [H]ardOCP's [H]R....i think it's run by the same guy who runs their PR

 

[Phelptwan]

Wow...I'm shocked at home many people can just take what the PR can shoves out with no recourse...I'm somewhat surprised that Kyle responded to them in the first place (it is understandable though considering this company has a reputation in our world...the should be held to a higher standard). The fact of it is that Kyle called them out and they failed.

 

[Phelptwan]

Wow...I'm shocked at home many ...

Wow...freud might have something to say about that...I meant HOW not Home.

 

[tim-bit]

Wow...I'm shocked at home many people can just take what the PR can shoves out with no recourse...I'm somewhat surprised that Kyle responded to them in the first place (it is understandable though considering this company has a reputation in our world...the should be held to a higher standard). The fact of it is that Kyle called them out and they failed.

QFT. It's getting to be that there's so much PR spin and crap out there nowadays that you can't tell what's true and what's not. I'd much rather have Kyle write this and tell me straight up that they're bullshitting about their products and know right off the bat what's white and what's black. Rather than reading a million or so reviews on other sites telling me that commodores' new PCs are so great and will decimer the competition.

 

[Trepidati0n]

I think some people fail to realize that the higher end enthusiast companies know who Kyle is and what he stands for. I don't think you saw PCP&C whining like a little bitch after Kyle gave them a non-favorable review. If they did...oh boy, that would be a field day.

If a fellow engineer told me he had a "widget" that was 30% faster and I said prove it..and they told me to wait 3 month...I wouldn't have kind words either.

 

[Rube]

To all the poor lemmings who feel Kyle was harsh with the PR guy who was just doing his job, I say wake the fuck up! Kyle is not a journalist. He runs a tech website. He owes this PR jackass nothing. Its the other way around. Sure, maybe commodore came up with the 30% BS, but Dave was the jerk slinging it into Kyles inbox. Dave is supposed to know his audience and either not knowing that Kyle is a hard ass or the fact that his readers are a bunch or hard asses is foolish. Dave's job is PR so lets try some Relating to the Public, shall we? Ask yourself why are you so forgiving of Dave? Is it because you are so used to reading BS PR statements that you have become dulled by them? Does that make them any more right? Sure Kyle reamed him, but he had it coming. Screw these companies who feel its OK to say what they want in order to drum up business with a total disconnect between the PR and the actual product. Kyle goes out of his way to protect his readers from BS of all shapes & sizes and you cry when some little PR pussy cries afetr being called to task? Since when did the readership of [H] degenerate into such nice, sweet little lemmings to corporate BS? Stop the hero worship of Kyle and interact with him as a peer. Bo-fuckin-hoo, Kyle showed us that he is human and actually passionate about his job and the readers, and you try to hold him to a standard that he doesn't hold himself to. Don't cry when he falls off the pedestal you put him on.

 

[XamediX]

why is there even a 6 page discussion on this?

look at this way....

say you have 100 people coming to your door every day looking for something for free...

ok, so you deal with the usual BS that will come with that...until that one person piques your interest and you want to know more about "that fire last week that burned down my house"...and instead of giving you an answer, buddy pulls out a knife and wants blood...

i know it's a different scenario, but think about it....this guy wanted hardocp to post a PR (FOR FREE) that had more than your average BS (sorry, "marketing") in it, and kyle thought, well hey, if this thing does what it says, sure we'll post it, hell we may have to look further into this!....thats what hardocp does....

so what happens? if the postings by kyle are to be believed (which, why wouldn't they be? if he was lying it would cost him A LOT of money in legal fees - see the Phantom Labs "experiment" lol) then the guy gets pretty upset over, at this point, perfectly to the point questions....if you can find any rude/crudeness from the first points of contact....wow....i would say that you would be a little to thin skinned for....just about anything!

and i do blame the "pr guy" for setting the "tone" of the conversations...you sent out a PR to a potential "client"...yet if anyone questions you, you get a response of " Really, were you being serious? Just need to know if want a real answer on this one…" and then keeps on dodging the questions.

i know this is long, but holy shit people....don't bash kyle for getting upset when someone tries to use his site as a portal for bs....you should be thanking him...since when does kyle have to be professional to someone who is lying to him to use his site for free advertising....this is business people....he's not here to sing songs and everyone get along....

do some RESEARCH before you start dolling out bullshit to people who can see through it....

I almost read the whole 6 pages(40 post/page) of this thread till I saw your post. I now have nothing to add because you said already and said it pretty well. Thank you Kyle for sacrificng the big bucks the other fake sites make in order to keep, keeping it real. I wish you financial success and will always support you guys. /me clicks ads on the sides.

 

[BigJavy]

While I think it sucks that PR people get away with saying a lot of the stuff they say, I kinda side w/ the people that think Kyle was a bit harsh. Pretty early in the conversation, David (or whatever his name was) admitted he didn't have the details you were looking for and offered to arrange an interview with an engineer.

While his later responses were horrible (especially coming from a PR guy), I think he just got defensive and carried away. He DID offer you two solutions to your problem (the interview with an engineer and a system to test). I appreciate [H]'s having the backs of consumers, but I think it would've been more responsible to exhaust all options before calling out Commodore.

As it stands, we still don't know if their pc is 30% faster than every other gaming PC. We just know they have crappy PR.

 

[XamediX]

I also like to add that I also liked the fact that he opened the "Employees Only" door for a second so we could peek into what is going on behind the scenes. But people can stop arguing now because it all boils down to semantics. and who likes to argue that all day?

 

[enki]

It's articles like this that keep me coming back every single day. Way to go Kyle and thank you for all the years of unjaded truth you've provided us.