Commodore Rocks...Because I Said So

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And to think that after all these years using e-mails we still haven't learned that it's so easy to misunderstand each other...

Bad messages from both sides, and all that could easily be avoided with a phone call (not a voice mail...) :p

And really an over hyped article about something as trivial as PR BS...

But hey, we won't stop reading [H]ardOCP because of anything like this, right? ;)
 
brutally brilliant. to me, after reading this article, the only way Commodore can become a good seller in the US is if Falcon or similar buys the rights to their name and uses it to make actual high-performing good-looking PCs.
 
I'm sorry, but I think Dave gave Kyle the right to say whatever the hell he felt like saying once he asked if he was serious. PR guys don't do that, unless the whole point is to get bad PR.
 
Kyle was a bit harsh on the guy, but IMHO he had it coming.

It is not, nor will it ever be acceptable for companies (via PR rep or whatever) to lie to consumers about their products.

I see no problem with lies being met with harsh responses.
 
That was hilarious, And I thank you Kyle for making my otherwise terrible night enjoyable lmfao

So... are you going to review a commodore system as a tribute? :D *crosses fingers and all that other superstitious junk* I miss [H]Consumer... can you tell? :D

hell, send it my way and ill spend two months bitching commodore out over a video card heheh (because we ALL know if you reviewed it, the video card would die, and the DVD drive will be RMA'd as well :p ) :D

just putting the name in ;)
 
I started reading the article because i was interested in Commodore, remembering their UK only machines advertised a short while ago here and liking their design.

But with no pictures and alot of text that seemed to all surmise *Commodore machines coming to north america, they will be cool yaddayadda* my ADD kind of kicked in and i didnt read the rest :D

Is that pretty much the gist of it then?
 
maybe they're shipping 4X4 boards with Barcelona procs:eek:

:D

Yeah. Its so bad. Marketing in computers is always some of the worst, but somewhat understandably. Computers are pretty amazing yet infinatly intricate devices, so when the general public gets ahold of a number that is one of many factors, they squeeze that number. I often get the strange eye when I told someone:

"yeah the Atholon XPs always run slower then the Pentium 4s, but they still manage to outperform... [strange look] take these two computers for example, this ones got an atholon XP, 1.6GHz, and this one a Pentium 4 2.2GHz [northwood]. The Atholon machine is really quite a superb machine, If you're really intrested I can load up some games to show you..." this guy was after all buying a 2.5K comp from me, and both comps already had Command and Conquer generals installed, which, coupled with a poor CPU, results in garbage FPS in 4 on 4 maps. Yeah I remember that guy, got him an X800XT. It was the first time I'd ever used one. It was just blazing fast... well, by the standards 2.5 years ago.

back on topic, hes probibly referring to some absurd number, the firs that comes to mind is intels new 1333MHz FSB vs the 1066MHz one. When that statement was made, perfhalps commodore was the first to make the jump to DDR3 based 1333MHz systems, so, in this example, the bench mark might be Sandra.

then again, heres hoping its a 4X4 board with two barcelonas. The CPU test scores have gotta be insane on those suckers.... maybe even enought to make the FPS tolerable (5 or 6!).
 
Kyle's responses were obviously terse and aggressive, but it's important to remember that HardOCP isn't PC Magazine or even Extremetech. It's a successful enthusiast indie site that caters to an unusually large and influential niche, and the degree of professionalism that we expect in the normal business world, bordering on pandering, isn't required or even appreciated. Smart PR should cater to that. Even though Kyle didn't wait for hardware to make his conclusion, his conclusion was obviously correct.

Only real surprise here is that [H] no longer reviews OEM systems-- since when? Those [H] consumer reviews were actually useful at detailing the real buyer's experience, unlike every other review on the net. It's a real shame they've stopped doing them.
 
Oh hey, what does this mean from the beggining of the article:

"Now while we are no longer in the business of reviewing fully built performance computer systems"

When did this happen??? i mean, i had noticed that there hadnt been any new reviews for systems recently, but i never remember seeing an announcement about you guys stopping it.... seemed like you were only ramping it up for more.
 
there was an announcement. it was large in size. i believe there was an elephant.

You got a link? This is terrible news, i wonder why they stopped (why i want to see a link, because i dont remember seeing it). I would have figured it would indeed be a big editorial or something stating why they were halting their review program, but it has eluded me!

Anyway, if you have a link that would be great, i wants to gets to the bottoms of this.
 
HardOCP: ORLY?
Commodore: YA RLY
HardOCP: SRSLY?
Commodore: ...

i thought after that first email back you could have said, "Thanks, thats what I thought." lol
 
You got a link? This is terrible news, i wonder why they stopped (why i want to see a link, because i dont remember seeing it). I would have figured it would indeed be a big editorial or something stating why they were halting their review program, but it has eluded me!

Anyway, if you have a link that would be great, i wants to gets to the bottoms of this.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HardOCP

i can't locate the actual article that was posted here, wiki will have to do. :(

some of the best system evaluations i've ever read, too bad it's no more... let's keep the convo centered on commodore though.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HardOCP

i can't locate the actual article that was posted here, wiki will have to do. :(

some of the best system evaluations i've ever read, too bad it's no more... let's keep the convo centered on commodore though.

Well thats a shame regardless, still i'd like to see the oficial statmenet about this, so if it was as big as you say it was let me know if you ever come across the link to the article wherever it was on the site.

But anyhoo, as for the Commodore article, I joked that i hadnt read it before, because i didnt. I genuinely though from skimming it that it was an exciting talk about whats to come from Commodores computers as i had remembered their cool C-skins when Hardocp mentioned them a while ago.

Anyhow, massive LOL's handed out.

but i will say this, i beleive that while Kyle was justified and he knows what he's talking about, i would almost dare say he "started it", oh not the whole conversation, but the ugly part (which you really should post! WE WANT DRAMA!!!).

I've seen my fair share of interweb discussions and the strange mix of emotions they brew and and carry over in posts, and there is that turning point when you know a conversations about to take that turn, i think this was it:

"Can’t back up your claims and now I am the bitter, harping guy that is picking on you? I would suggest if you are going to send your tripe to my mailbox that you can back up what you say. Now, that your panties are out of the wad, how bout we get back to specs and facts instead of your whining?"

The first sentence was sort of teasing him (although it was warranted after him implying you might be bitter, i think he did it in earnest, so i think the phrasing was a bit of a catcall). Then you call his stuff tripe (which it very well may be, but i think you should have continued to be patient and ask him to prove it and not unload on him yet). Then you throwin the panties in a wad and tell him to quit whining.

I mean, that's basically like giving the conversation an overdose of drama and then waiting for the ensuing havoc of personal attacks.

Now the rest of it i think was all justified, but i think the guys bitter comment was a little in earnest, and he may have been a total idiot and just not understood how to speak with you, but i think had you given him a little more slack perhaps it would have ended more amicably....or been amicable a little longer :p
 
I agree that the 30% claim is way out of line. Even with maximal tweaking of internal timings and heavy adjustments in the BIOS, I don't see how anyone could extract a performance margin like that from off-the-shelf components. Quite obviously, it was high quality PR BS.

PR bullshit is run of the mill, but this guy claimed he was visited by aliens and they gave him the specs (basically). I especially liked the part where he said he called his competitors overclocked, said he could still beat them all by 30%, then demanded not to be compared to overclocked systems.

The pics from the Bit-Tech review are interesting. Hopefully this guy's back at the home office getting shot for having no clue how to deal with the press.
 
Interesting.

I do believe that Kyle's e-mails were short, and possibly (from what I read) came off even a bit rude. Fair enough.

But seriously: PR is the guy's *JOB*. You don't go down that road -- if you don't have the numbers or the information to back up your claims, then you screwed up (in a *BIG* way) and should try and make nice.

The fact that Dave (a professional PR guy) got in a pissing match with an online reviewer is... downright stupid. Time for him to get a new job. See ya.

Although somewhat juvinile, the article was spot on: if you can't back up your claims, and you start the mud slinging, you are going to get a negative review -- [H] is not just been about hardware -- it is also about the companies, and how they deal with people. I would hate to think what would happen for tech support or an RMA.

-Sky
 
"Dave" is the reason you don't hook your buddy's retarded brother up with a PR job at your company.:p

Is English even a first language for this guy? I'm hoping no, surely a big name company wouldn't hire such an idiot to do PR for them.
 
wholly mountain out of a mole hill...

Kyle, while you're at it, please check with these following companies and see if they can prove it:

zipflyzoom - "nothing else even comes close" - (umm, i looked at some prices, pretty close to newegg.)
newegg - "newegg lanfest, the ultimate gaming festival" (i dunno...think there might be one or two others out there to consider)
BFG - "The gamers choice" (actually my choice was a corsair psu)


Anyway, just wondering if you could get these companies to prove their claims. Figured you'd have the data since they were the first three companies i grabbed off the front page advertising.
 
In my experience people who complain about the tone of an email,phonecall,conversation are looking to avoid the actual subject in question or giving a straight answer. These people are you usually assholes and best avoided.
Good on Kyle for not giving them the satisfaction of an apology for something unintended. :p
 
If a company is going to ask me to drop thousands of dollars on their product,they better back up their claims with something a little better than"are you serious?'. I think that set the tone for everything that followed.If someone's going to review a product I'm thinking of spending my hard earned money on,I want the facts,not some PR guy's empty claims,and "political correctness" be damned..Personally,I wish system reviews were still done here,I miss the honest,straightforward approach.
 
Today is the first day back from his quoted vacation. He did say after his vacation but I guess Kyle took that very literally and posted this his very first day back from it.

Do let us know if he follows through with what he said he would do when he got back.

Uh, nope. LAST WEEK was the long weekend he was back from.
 
Interesting.

I do believe that Kyle's e-mails were short, and possibly (from what I read) came off even a bit rude. Fair enough.

But seriously: PR is the guy's *JOB*. You don't go down that road -- if you don't have the numbers or the information to back up your claims, then you screwed up (in a *BIG* way) and should try and make nice.

The fact that Dave (a professional PR guy) got in a pissing match with an online reviewer is... downright stupid. Time for him to get a new job. See ya.

Although somewhat juvinile, the article was spot on: if you can't back up your claims, and you start the mud slinging, you are going to get a negative review -- [H] is not just been about hardware -- it is also about the companies, and how they deal with people. I would hate to think what would happen for tech support or an RMA.

-Sky
QFT. Kyle could have been just a tad more forgiving, but there's no excuse for someone representing the company in this manner to get into a flamewar. Even if Commodore is pulling numbers out of the air, there are a million different things the guy could have said to delay until there was a system to review and keep the conversation civil. Instead, this person in PR manages to piss off an internet journalist and, look, here we are with bad press.
 
QFT. Kyle could have been just a tad more forgiving, but there's no excuse for someone representing the company in this manner to get into a flamewar. Even if Commodore is pulling numbers out of the air, there are a million different things the guy could have said to delay until there was a system to review and keep the conversation civil. Instead, this person in PR manages to piss off an internet journalist and, look, here we are with bad press.

any press is good press...i never even knew they were making boutique pc's, and the article got me to visit the website. I suspect i'm not alone...:p
 
I can just imagine the backlash I would have to deal with if I answered readers' questions with "Are you serious?"
 
wholly mountain out of a mole hill...

Kyle, while you're at it, please check with these following companies and see if they can prove it:

zipflyzoom - "nothing else even comes close" - (umm, i looked at some prices, pretty close to newegg.)
newegg - "newegg lanfest, the ultimate gaming festival" (i dunno...think there might be one or two others out there to consider)
BFG - "The gamers choice" (actually my choice was a corsair psu)


As I specifically pointed out in the article, which I am making an assumption that you read it all, these are subjective marketing statements. Can you prove them? No, not really. Surely you could make some cases for and against them. Now if BFG told me that they were the choice of every gamer in Europe and that 30% of their customers never bought another card from another competitive card builder again, I would expect something to back that up.

As for the mountain out of a molehill statement....apparently there was enough of a molehill for you to come in and spend your time on this subject as well. ;)
 
I am so surprised at how many of you all are so politically correct. Being PC is good with the wife, but this situation is different and that many of you are unable to comprehend that is even more dissapointing than how PC you are.

Keep it up Kyle.
 
If you did not know Kyle can be abrasive then now you do but more importantly you know to watch out for the commodore systems when they come out with outrageous performance claims.
Did anyone read the bit tech article to see the PC?
If that is their system then it is a top end and with no OC it will not in any way, shape form or fashion pull 30% in any 3dmark06 score over any top end system OC'd or not.

I like the fact that no bull shit gets posted or reviewed on [H].

Everyone knows that, that's the point! Why would Kyle even give this person the time of day with such a stupid claim? Don't fight or bicker with them, just move on.
 
as far as subjectivity...saying a computer is "30% faster" is subjective too. I mean, 30% faster in what? Obviously it's impossible to say any computer hardware is 30% better than something else when using generalities. It's not quantitative if it's not measuring it against itself against something tangible.


Wow...just wow. I don't even know what to say to that. I can't even begin to argue with your logic on that one.
 
Everyone knows that, that's the point! Why would Kyle even give this person the time of day with such a stupid claim? Don't fight or bicker with them, just move on.


I did outline my reasons for that in the article should you wish to read it.
 
To be honest, even though I'm a big [H]ardOCP fan, I found Kyle's emails to be unjustifiably curt or even downright rude. I kind of think it's unprofessional to even post this, especially if it came from email outside of the press release. By not including ALL the emails, it's even borderline unethical. None of this seems fair at all; not to Commodore and not to [H]ardOCP readers.

On the flipside, do I believe a thing Commodore's PR had to say about their computers? Not at all.

I concur. Well said. It all sounds like school yard journalism or someone having a bad day.
 
Great read Kyle. To bad they didn't send one of there machines with the e-mail to test. As far as matching different components to find which works best, thats what most of us do that read [H]ard OCP. I've been doing that for 12 years and at stock speeds I never experienced such performance as they claim. Boy I loved to see what I've been missing. Hope they still send a machine for review so I can be enlightened.
 
I concur. Well said. It all sounds like school yard journalism or someone having a bad day.


You may agree, but I assure you, you are wrong. I let all this bake for a week and a half. Still feel the same way about it that I did then. The guy was outright lying trying to leverage my website to get me to tell my readers what he wanted them to hear. He said they were a leader and I asked them what made them a leader and he was the one that was rude. Commodore repeatedly dodged the issue of backing up their statements and started getting ugly calling names.

No journalists here, just computer hardware enthusiasts sharing their experiences.
 
Great read Kyle. To bad they didn't send one of there machines with the e-mail to test. As far as matching different components to find which works best, thats what most of us do that read [H]ard OCP. I've been doing that for 12 years and at stock speeds I never experienced such performance as they claim. Boy I loved to see what I've been missing. Hope they still send a machine for review so I can be enlightened.

They did offer to send a box, but said it would take months to get one. Er right. Easy copout. They did not send over test data, because they were lying.
 
You were way out of line picking on Commodore, your emails to them were trying to start a war. Who cares about them anymore anyways. Maybe your time could be better spent trying to get the Forums part of your web sight working better. It is at times slow and down way too often. In fact I think some other forums may be 30 percent faster.
 
well i'm a forum whore an have been posting here for 6 years...so i offer no excuse :p

as far as subjectivity...saying a computer is "30% faster" is subjective too. I mean, 30% faster in what? Obviously it's impossible to say any computer hardware is 30% better than something else when using generalities. It's not quantitative if it's not measuring it against itself against something tangible. If someone is swayed by this type of market speak, they're just as likely to buy a Dell because "dude, you're getting a dell", or "yours is here", which i think is their new slogan. I just think there's a ton of this stuff going on around in the industry, and just confused why we're picking on some european shop. Was there something leading up to this? Just think you would have come off cooler just ignoring it...cause to be honest, if i'm the ceo for commodore gaming, i'm excited as hell that my name is on top of one of the most popular computer enthusiast websites out there.

Now don't get me wrong...the PR guy came off as just some joe shmoe in charge of PR, with little to no skill in that department...but along the same lines, indicting a company because of one inept employee is kind of pointless.


He didn't just say they were 30% faster, he said they 30% faster using 3DMark as a benchmarking tool. Kyle asked for the specs and the test data and the guy essentially said "trust me".

And since when is a number not quantitative?
 
Whilst I like the reviews and approach this site normally takes, I think this whole editorial was unjustified. Kyle - there isnt really that much of a story here. You have however, managed to turn it into one and have probably come off as the lesser man. [not that you think so.. obviously!]

By lesser man here, I am referring to the fact it looks like you wanna pin this guy down to prove every word that leaves his mouth. And thats pedantic. He's in PR, and claims of 'beats other major gaming systems by 30%' could simply be interpreted as 'beats some machines by 30%' as no mention of equivalent costs/components/companies is listed. Where is the lie in that. Its like me saying 'My home build is 30% faster than home builds of other people in the self build market - and that is bloody true .. if I do say so myself!'

I just dont see the reason for this article... kinda pointless, and makes you out to be someone who jumps on any person who cant produce endless data to back up what they say. Another approach would have been to build a better relationship with Commodore and work with them for a better review, as I cant really see a positive relationship coming from this now. Who could blame Commodore either?

Their machines have been well reviewed in the UK for example, and are often seen as 'high performers with a great build, but expensive'.

Famous proverb... "Build bridges not walls."... especially when building relationships with other companies and people.

And please let this not be a witch hunt. No more "He said, she said" articles please.. Keep it behind [H] doors if that stuff does happen. Id rather keep seeing the [H] site for what it does best, and not trashing startups like Commodore .
 
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