Aqua Computer or Dtek

[Ranker]

Well what we really have here are:

• Slame: An AC distributor in Berlin, Germany.
• Top Nurse: A user of AC products.
• Shoggy: A moderator of the Aqua Computer Forum.

So there are no AC engineers here at the moment...

My guess is that for certain things it doesn't make a lot of sense to use copper when aluminum will work just as well. Almost all their water blocks are made from copper except the voltage regulator blocks, IIRC. The Aquatube is made out of aluminum and their is no issue of cooling in a reservoir. Aluminum is much easier to to do internal boring work than copper is and can you imagine the expense of a 3-4" round billet of copper! There were some copper Aquatubes made many years ago and from what I understand it was such a machining disaster that they refuse to ever do it again.

Providing you use the anti-corrosion inhibitor (AC Fluid) there isn't a corrosion problem anyway. So who cares?

They also make silver blocks as well.

Sounds like a cut from Koolance's FUD page.

 

[Ranker]

This is why I'm not so interested in water cooling anymore. Water cooling is pretty much dead as far as major advances go: just look at the ProCooling forums. Except for Quad cores and equally hot GPUs, there isn't that much more room for improvement anymore, but at these heat levels, we do see noticeable differences. Check out the Fuzion - it can beat the Apogee by a couple of degrees, which is a big deal nowadays.

So, AC vs. U.S.A., who wins?

Performance wise, Bigger is Better. How much better? It depends, but trying to deny that (all things equal) lower flow > higher flow is like arguing that the world is flat. TN, as you have shown, in some cases, doubling the flow doesn't make such a big difference. You HDs saw a very tiny imporvement, along with your water temp. However, hard drives and water temp are not as important as actual CPU/GPU(/even chipset) temps. Some blocks barely see any improvement after a certain point - check out the 6002. For its time, great performance at low flow rates, but it doesn't get that much more out of more flow. Now check out blocks like the Storm(G4)/G5. They greatly benefit from extra flow, which is why people lined up on this continent to order them from Australia when they came out. Comparisons: http://www.procooling.com/index.php?func=articles&disp=131. If you think even a 1/4" (6mm) loop isn't restrictive, check this out:

Notice the two highlighted rows: changing just the fittings and tubing to 3/8" (10mm) gives a 2.5*C improvement (DeltaT, or increase over ambient temperature, which is what show real world performance). Swap out the weak pump, the restrictive radiator, the block for one that performs just as well with less resistance, and the improvements add up quickly. On a hotter system, the improvent is even more noticeable (a C/W of 0.10 compared to 0.15 means 5*C at 100 watts, 10*C at 200, 15*C at 300, etc.). Will 2.5*C make or break an OC? Depends on your definition of make or break: that added stability could be the difference between 3.9 and 4.0GHz.

Of course, that's not the whole story. Different blocks will get different flow in the same loops. Check this out:

With the low pressure and flow provided by a 1046, the NexXxos XP (similar to the Cuplex XT) is beat by a Swiftech 6000 (not even the native 1/2" model). In a much more restrictive loop (cough*yours slame *cough), the performance difference will be even more noticeable. I will gladly provide more information/evidence as asked, but I hope I've made my point by what I've written (which I've said plenty of times months/years ago).

Slame, 55*C is...awful by this forum's standards. is your e6600 rated for even higher temperatures? Sure, but just like a car (ah, more car analogies), you don't run a car at redline 24/7. With a less restrictive loop with better performing components, you could likely see temperatures in the 40's at worst, which should give you more OC headroom. Cooler chips have longer lives and (more importantly in this forum) higher OC potential. Is this the case for everyone? No, but there's a reason why world records are set on LN2, and the highest 24/7 OCs are done on phase change. Every chip is different, but you're holding yourself back choosing to go low flow? How much? Could be nothing, could be several hundred MHz.

Can AC give you great OCs? Slame has given a fine example proving this to be true.
Will AC give you the highest OCs, at the lowest temperatures, at a much cheaper cost? No, no, and no.
Does AC have more bling/looks in its favor? Some say yes, some say no - it's up to the individual consumer.
Does AC offer the most control of a complete loop? Sure, and it depends on who actually uses it. TN, for example, has her Aquero set to change fan speeds and led colors at different temperatures. In my case, my system sits 2 feet away from me, and my pump has a slightly different tone that I can pick out from my hard drives, so I know if my pump isn't working. An Aquero can set your computer to shut off at different temperature ranges - so can many free programs, if not built in hardware shut-offs. Do I think an Aquero is a $150 fan/light/(useless) pump/temperature monitor and controller? Yes. Do TN and a few thousand others agree with me? Probably not. It all depends on the consumer.

Now can we get back to Narisatu's questions?
You can use an Aquero with a non-AC loop just fine, but be careful of overly restrictive add-ons(especially the flow meter) or you'll take a big flow hit. For CPU blocks, FuZions are your best bet currently, but I'm not completely sure what you're looking for in a GPU block. Hope that helps.

You sir, just stole the crown and win the best post in thread award.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Sounds like a cut from Koolance's FUD page.

Almost as much as the dream parts list in your sig file

 

[Arcygenical]

The only problems you will see posted on forums are from American made products where quality is next to nothing compared to getting a part made cheaper.

Mind re-stating that? I'm really not sure what you mean by it.

 

[Top Nurse]

As for the copper aquatube, I totally agree there. That makes obvious sense, a billet of round copper stock like that would weigh upwards of 20lbs and take FOREVER to drill out . at 6.75 a lb, that's one hell of a bill of materials! Silver waterblocks, now that's overkill

Actually with a CNC indexable insert drill you can drill out the center hole in about 60 seconds or less. It's all the front and back boring with anti-vibration boring bars that gets expensive.

FFI currently has a silver Cuplex XT and a silver TwinPlex on the NB. I'm looking at getting a few more just for grins.

 

[Ranker]

Almost as much as the dream parts list in your sig file

If you're calling me a lair, I'll have pics up of the re-done (post Iwaki) completed system by this weekend, or if you prefer to see all the parts laid out now. Just want to make sure I get it straight that you're calling me a liar.

 

[Bio-Hazard]

I've seen pics of his rig before, it's totally top of the line along with max performance............. Performance that AC can only dream about.................

 

[Top Nurse]

If you're calling me a lair, I'll have pics up of the re-done (post Iwaki) completed system by this weekend, or if you prefer to see all the parts laid out now. Just want to make sure I get it straight that you're calling me a liar.

Don't you live in HB? If so he also lives in HB. Perhaps you two should just get together and have a brewski.

BTW, are you calling me a liar too with that remark about Koolance FUD?

 

[ikellensbro]

Sounds like a cut from Koolance's FUD page.

Why another FUD comment? TN doesn't work for AC (although at this point she must have a sizeable financial interest ), and gave a perfectly recently supposition for Arcy's question. Aluminum is cheaper than copper, and is much easier to machine. Their new radiators (at long last, heater core style) are copper and brass like everyone else now (except you-know-who), and aluminum mosfet coolers - who cares? It's not like they really need a block anyway, much less the performance of copper.

In some cases, maybe AC likes the look of aluminum better, such as how Cuplex XTs have a nickel plated top plate covering the copper base. I'm sure Shoggy or Slame can answer this much better as well. Most who buy AC gear will get AC fluid anyway, so it doesn't matter so much corrosion wise as long as it's used properly.

 

[Top Nurse]

...and aluminum mosfet coolers - who cares? It's not like they really need a block anyway, much less the performance of copper.

EXACTLY

 

[slame]

The reason for the alu is the weight. Ok not on th evoltage regulators. The second thing is its easier to work with. Just that simple.

 

[slame]

Please reread my comments. Reading comprehension helps.

Post of the year.

So, AC vs. U.S.A., who wins?

no one .. we don´t battle. ;-)

Will 2.5*C make or break an OC? Depends on your definition of make or break: that added stability could be the difference between 3.9 and 4.0GHz.

no, these 2.5°C don´t make it

Slame, 55*C is...awful by this forum's standards. is your e6600 rated for even higher temperatures?

55°C is the reality ;-)

Sure, but just like a car (ah, more car analogies), you don't run a car at redline 24/7.

55°C is far away from redline, don´t be ridiculous

With a less restrictive loop with better performing components, you could likely see temperatures in the 40's at worst, which should give you more OC headroom.

no higher oc .. believe me that. but you won´t, the knockout is the processor. thats what i was sayin. i now really believe its my english why nobody understands me.

Cooler chips have longer lives and (more importantly in this forum) higher OC potential.

1. you mean electromigration ? 20 years more ? great, btw anyone seen my Pentium 100 MHz with Turbo .. I really need it right now.

2. again no, but you won´t believe me again. OC is about the hardware mainly, sure also the temperatures

Is this the case for everyone? No, but there's a reason why world records are set on LN2, and the highest 24/7 OCs are done on phase change. Every chip is different, but you're holding yourself back choosing to go low flow? How much? Could be nothing, could be several hundred MHz.

the difference in oc on high or low flow is nuthin, the differnce when you go below zero is another thing we did not talk about ... you know who were one of the first to get over 1 GHz ? No ?? Its a bunch of guys called extrem krass

Can AC give you great OCs? Slame has given a fine example proving this to be true.

no, depends more on your hardware and your experience, we just help a little bit

Will AC give you the highest OCs, at the lowest temperatures, at a much cheaper cost? No, no, and no.

lets compare domestic prices, no import prices, thats unfair and yes .. we give you the same OC

Does AC have more bling/looks in its favor? Some say yes, some say no - it's up to the individual consumer.

yeah right .. personal thing

Now can we get back to Narisatu's questions?

no, you don´t have the last word.

With a less restrictive loop with better performing components, you could likely see temperatures in the 40's at worst, which should give you more OC headroom. Cooler chips have longer lives and (more importantly in this forum) higher OC potential. Is this the case for everyone?

quote from Ranker :

Now ain't that some FUD. The height of your overclock has nothing to do with watercooling at all. You're limited by other extraneous factors such as the quality of your CPU stepping, the voltages allowed by your motherboard, motherboard stability, etc.

You sir, just stole the crown and win the best post in thread award.

Big Time ....

Please don´t feel offended, just some discussion among watercooling friends

 

[slame]

please delete this one only

 

[Narisatu]

Can we get back to Narisatu's Questions?

no, you don´t have the last word.

Well, that comment just lost AC a customer, though i was leaning more towards the high flow stuff anyway. I hate it when people are more concerned with proving their own points than trying to help someone who asked for help. Thank you, Ranker, for your help, you and ikellensbro where a big help to me.

 

[Erasmus354]

Well, that comment just lost AC a customer, though i was leaning more towards the high flow stuff anyway. I hate it when people are more concerned with proving their own points than trying to help someone who asked for help. Thank you, Ranker, for your help, you and ikellensbro where a big help to me.

It is really just a matter of ignoring all the squabbling that goes on around here. The basic pros and cons have been discussed... AC can't stand up in the price or performance categories, meanwhile some people like the looks. You need to just come to your own decisions about where your priorities lie in making your watercooling system. There are a lot of propoganda masters prowling around these boards, so it can unfortunately be hard sometimes to chose the system that is right for you.

Hopefully you were able to squeeze some useful information from this thread. If you have decided what route you want to go, I would suggest making a new thread to ask about more specific questions pertaining to the setup you want to get (if you feel you need further help) rather than continuing in this thread.

 

[Narisatu]

Thanks for suggestion, I will probably just make a worklog, i know pretty much now what im going to do. At least I think so, If I have any questions, Ill probably post another thread.


(Mods, can you lock this thread?)

 

[JC634]

(Mods, can you lock this thread?)

Why? I really found this thread quite entertaining. I love it when XXX fanboys duke it out with YYY fanboys. Just insert whatever into the XXX and YYY...

The entertainment factor is maximized in these kinds of threads.

I also enjoy GREATLY how casually FUD is used anymore. When all else fails, just use the FUD acronym.

 

[Shoggy]

Why? I really found this thread quite entertaining.

Me too

 

[slame]

Why? I really found this thread quite entertaining.

That´s why i am here.

 

[Top Nurse]

Well, that comment just lost AC a customer, though i was leaning more towards the high flow stuff anyway. I hate it when people are more concerned with proving their own points than trying to help someone who asked for help. Thank you, Ranker, for your help, you and ikellensbro where a big help to me.

You got to be kidding me...

This is the post (see post #2) that started all this fracas:

Price alone would warrant the D-tek/Swiftech combo. D-Tek and Swifftech are known to provide excellent support for future motherboards with mounting hardware so they'll provide you with some comfort that you'll be able to resuse your blocks in the future. The same can't be said about the other option.

The XT-DI also looks like a flow killer. It's design is very similar to the Swiftech Storm 2. You'd most likely have to split it into its own loop if you'd want decent performance.

I personally would choose the 2nd option. There's a reason why the hardcore community embraces D-Tek, Swiftech, Ek. They provide excellent performance and excellent support at reasonable prices.

 

[Top Nurse]

Why? I really found this thread quite entertaining.

The entertainment factor is maximized in these kinds of threads.

I like a good rip rousing stir'em up thread around here as well. Keeps the place lively.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

I've seen pics of his rig before, it's totally top of the line along with max performance............. Performance that AC can only dream about.................

Anyone with that much hardware in one rig should never complain about the cost of anything.......

Don't you live in HB? If so he also lives in HB. Perhaps you two should just get together and have a brewski.

BTW, are you calling me a liar too with that remark about Koolance FUD?

Yeah, I have a feeling he doesn't have a drivers license yet or if so, has a red strip in the license.

Well, that comment just lost AC a customer, though i was leaning more towards the high flow stuff anyway. I hate it when people are more concerned with proving their own points than trying to help someone who asked for help. Thank you, Ranker, for your help, you and ikellensbro where a big help to me.

Very narrow minded action, but enjoy yourself!

 

[Arcygenical]

I like a good rip rousing stir'em up thread around here as well. Keeps the place lively.

Too bad the three year olds can't refrain from personal attacks though.

/open ended personal attack

So long as AC quits placing copper and aluminum in the SAME waterblock, I don't care how they perform.

Very narrow minded action, but enjoy yourself!

How so? After the 3rd post, the entire thread went OT. Rather than answering the OP's questions, everyone got in a huge clusterfuck over which type of watercooling was better. We have 2 official voices for the AC company, and very, very little pertinant information was offered to the OP. That would piss me off if I was in the OP's position as well.

 

[Ranker]

Anyone with that much hardware in one rig should never complain about the cost of anything.......



Yeah, I have a feeling he doesn't have a drivers license yet or if so, has a red strip in the license.



Very narrow minded action, but enjoy yourself!

Name a place and I'd love to meet up and share a beer. We can even head over to my place and I'll show you the box itself.

I may spend more money than the typical wc enthusiast, but I make sure I invest in quality components rather than products passed off as quality components without the performance to back it up.

 

[Erasmus354]

Name a place and I'd love to meet up and share a beer. We can even head over to my place and I'll show you the box itself.

I may spend more money than the typical wc enthusiast, but I make sure I invest in quality components rather than products passed off as quality components without the performance to back it up.

It is posts like this Ranker which cause big ruckuses. AquaComputer parts are definitely "quality" as in they are very well made, with great fit and finish. So simply making a blanket statement alluding to the fact that AC stuff isn't quality isn't entirely correct.

I certainly dislike lots of things AC does with their components. I don't like 6mm tubing. I don't like the way AC doesn't match their waterblock design with their cooling philosophy (low flow and quiet). I don't like the use of aluminum. I don't like the price for the performance given. I don't like the emphasis on lots of useless flashy schemes.

That doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad. Quality is more than just performance for lots of people, for you that may be your only criteria you care about; but that certainly doesn't mean that's all there is.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

That doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad. Quality is more than just performance for lots of people, for you that may be your only criteria you care about; but that certainly doesn't mean that's all there is.

I applaude you right now, Erasmus! We don't see eye to eye much but at least we agree on your statement.

I may spend more money than the typical wc enthusiast, but I make sure I invest in quality components rather than products passed off as quality components without the performance to back it up.

You MIGHT but the sad part is your "performance" can be match with smaller tubing and far less loops. Just a fact of life I learned years ago while watercooling. And trust me you don't spend alot considering one Aquaduct360 cost more than 90% of your cooling equipment across your three loops and doesn't require two cases welded together to fit. That is the great part about having choices in product selection from more than the USA.

 

[Ranker]

I applaude you right now, Erasmus! We don't see eye to eye much but at least we agree on your statement.



You MIGHT but the sad part is your "performance" can be match with smaller tubing and far less loops. Just a fact of life I learned years ago while watercooling. And trust me you don't spend alot considering one Aquaduct360 cost more than 90% of your cooling equipment across your three loops and doesn't require two cases welded together to fit.

What a lovely imagination we have.

 

[Arcygenical]

You MIGHT but the sad part is your "performance" can be match with smaller tubing and far less loops. Just a fact of life I learned years ago while watercooling. And trust me you don't spend alot considering one Aquaduct360 cost more than 90% of your cooling equipment across your three loops and doesn't require two cases welded together to fit. That is the great part about having choices in product selection from more than the USA.

So... you spent 90% more than he did to attain similar performance, and you still rely on an external tower?

 

[Erasmus354]

You MIGHT but the sad part is your "performance" can be match with smaller tubing and far less loops. Just a fact of life I learned years ago while watercooling. And trust me you don't spend alot considering one Aquaduct360 cost more than 90% of your cooling equipment across your three loops and doesn't require two cases welded together to fit. That is the great part about having choices in product selection from more than the USA.

Along the same lines with what I said to Ranker....

These are the kinds of posts that you make R1ck that cause ruckuses. Your making baseless claims about performance with no proof given at all. It is your opinion, perhaps educated or uneducated, and your experience, not a fact. You are also trying to do a big no-no and compare apples to oranges. Your experiences apply to nobody else but yourself.

If you would just give your opinions, and state it as such, instead of trying to pass it off as fact you wouldn't get so many people calling what you say FUD. Because when you try to pass off personal views which try to discount something as fact that is exactly what you are doing, trying to spread uncertainty and doubt.

 

[theseeker]

Alright, im building a new computer setup for school. Watercooling is on the top of my list of things to do, Im actually going to be buying the case and cooling stuff before the hardware. Now, my problem is, what to go with. I have setup two different systems, pretty much, and cant decide which one to use. Either Aqua Computer (all AC components) or a Dtek CPU+GPU and a chipset cooler of some kind.

Lets get right down to it, here are the common peices

Aquero LT
Multiswitch
a pair of Thermochill 120.3 (two loops, one of each block on each loop)

Im using AC to control things, becuase of the Aquasuite, which, from what i have seen will allow me to control two loops. Ill be using an add-on for my G15 to put the information normally on the Aquero screen on the LCD on the G15

Here is the AC list of components
Cuplex XT or XT DI (need to see performance specs) (probably 2, if Phenom FX is as good as rumor)
twinplex x2 w/swiftechs 8800kit or aquagrafx 8800gtx
twinplex XT for chipsets
2x Aquastreams w/controller

The Dtek List
Dual FuZion cpu
Dual FuZion gpu
Swiftech chipset cooler
2 Laing DDC 2/petra's top

If i go AC, i will probably end up getting 2 aquabays as well, with the mounts for the aqua streams
If Dtek, not sure what im doing for Res yet.

I will be overclocking, mildly, so im not too concerned about top performance
computer specs will be whatever is top in the fall (so probably dual phenom FX with a pair of 8800gtx or 8900gtx if a refresh is released by then. Quad FX also means dual chipsets to cool)

Thanks for the help in advance, feel free to make suggestions on loops, and definatly comment on which you would go with, and why (besides the tubing size difference)

If you go with AC, I happen to have a few of the components you need lying around.

 

[theseeker]

A big part of the selection boils down to personal taste. I am a big AC fan but that does not mean that it is better. I originally purchased AC because I knew that it would satisfy my needs and I loved the way it looked and worked in conjunction with the control software. I have been using AC for three years now and I am quite happy with it. About a year and a half back I tested a Silver Storm with a Laing pump on an OC'ed FX and it out performed the Cuplex XT with an Aquastream. However, I just do not like large tubing so I went back to my AC gear. In the case of quality, I would put AC in the top tier. If you are looking for extreme OC'ing AC should not be your first choice. Just my 2 cents.
BTW, the Aquaduct is an incredible product.

 

[Top Nurse]

So... you spent 90% more than he did to attain similar performance, and you still rely on an external tower?

That external tower is one nice piece of water cooling machinery. I got one on the way myself.

 

[Top Nurse]

So long as AC quits placing copper and aluminum in the SAME waterblock, I don't care how they perform.

As far as I know there are no AC water blocks with both copper and aluminum in them. I don't think there ever was either.

 

[n00btard]

As far as I know there are no AC water blocks with both copper and aluminum in them. I don't think there ever was either.

AquaGraFX with replacement copper core, but I'm not sure if that counts

 

[Arcygenical]

As far as I know there are no AC water blocks with both copper and aluminum in them. I don't think there ever was either.

I remember seeing one myself... It might have been an aluminum block with an optional copper core... Or something of the like.

Either way, the price (and use of aluminum in places where a delrin/lucite could do an equally efficient job) scared me too much to really follow it, so my knowledge of most AC parts is severely outdated. What are the silver parts of the Cuplex XT? Nickel plated brass right?

The stuff I've got does it's job incredibly well, and looks damn sexy doing it. No need to go to the dark side, especially if I can't read 99% of the freaken reviews for it .

That external tower is one nice piece of water cooling machinery. I got one on the way myself.

It's definitely a nice piece of machinery, there's no question about that. I just really dislike external solutions, they're really not my style.

 

[Ranker]

I remember seeing one myself... It might have been an aluminum block with an optional copper core... Or something of the like.

It's definitely a nice piece of machinery, there's no question about that. I just really dislike external solutions, they're really not my style.

An overpriced external solution. For $600, for a radiator and pump, I'd expect it to walk my dog as well. I feel you on external solutions. A matter of preference, but I find them ugly and it takes up needless space in my house.

 

[Top Nurse]

AquaGraFX with replacement copper core, but I'm not sure if that counts

The replacement copper cores were made with the strict understanding that there was no warranty on the cores or the block you put them into. I think in the end they just said the hell with it and refused to produce anymore of them. Copper and hard anodized aluminum with a few drops of a corrosion inhibitor is nothing to talk about. However, putting a copper core into an aluminum block causes corrosion no matter what you do.

You have to understand that the people who make AC stuff are people who have been known to do a few odd things here and there in the interest of seeing if it will work out better. The copper cores were one of those ideas that seemed good on paper, but were a flop in real life. It really did work good, but some people weren't fastidious enough and there were problems with corrosion.

I seem to recall quite a while back where they were using LN2 just for fun when people were trying to crack the 1 Ghz barrier.

 

[Top Nurse]

An overpriced external solution. For $600, for a radiator and pump, I'd expect it to walk my dog as well. I feel you on external solutions. A matter of preference, but I find them ugly and it takes up needless space in my house.

Perhaps you should check out what were talking about before you flame it. It's not just a pump and a radiator.

Space is a consideration for you with that BOX!

 

[Top Nurse]

Either way, the price (and use of aluminum in places where a delrin/lucite could do an equally efficient job) scared me too much to really follow it, so my knowledge of most AC parts is severely outdated. What are the silver parts of the Cuplex XT? Nickel plated brass right?

The Cuplex XT has a pin array made of copper on the bottom that looks like this:

The bottom plate looks like this:

Mind you this is a silver block. I can't seem to find a pic of the middle part of the block, but IIRC it is nickel plated brass or copper.





Here's a copper version. The mountings are easily switched to anything needed by just unscrewing the four side bolts.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

An overpriced external solution. For $600, for a radiator and pump, I'd expect it to walk my dog as well. I feel you on external solutions. A matter of preference, but I find them ugly and it takes up needless space in my house.

You know you don't need to buy an external solution to get the functionality. They make devices that fit a single bay.

Imagine if you didn't have to reach down to your minifrig everytime you wanted to decrease/increase the fan speeds?

Oh imagine if you COULD overlock your pump via software?

Say you want your fans to increase based on sensors such as water temp or other sensors?

Say you want your fans to turn back to silent when the sensors reach a normal (user setting) level?

Or have LED's turn colors based on senors or devices?

Imagine having eight dry contacts for full control via software just say a PLC?

Maybe you would like to output the data from the devices to say your computer screen for desktop dispay?

Or you could just output your data automatically into XML files?

Or heaven forbid control the device over the internet?

Hmm... yeah and have a LCD display showing as much or as little as necessary?

And best for those, like yourself, who just have too much money run up to 32 of these devices all at the same time?

Oh yeah, that Rheobus does all of that too?