Aqua Computer or Dtek

[Arcygenical]

Sorry, but no pom-poms either. When all my friends were doing that kind of stuff I was doing mad scientist work in the science lab.

Lab coats can be sexy too

 

[Mysterae]

I was going to stay out this erm, discussion, but what the hell.

A good while ago I posted a relatively unbiased preliminary review about the AquaComputer gear that I had bought. I'll be honest here and say that my initial reasons for selecting AC was their looks, so shoot me.

However, another reason occurred to me why I like the AC stuff - their modibility (is that a word? ). I modded a Cuplex XT to 3 ports (a la RBX), modded AquaGratix GPU coolers by adding extra heatsinks, and added third party thermal material to the hard drive coolers. Yeah, so not everyone will be able or want to do any of that, but at least you can.

I can pre-empt the most likely rebuttle from Ranker by saying you don't have to mod other blocks from other manufacturers, but that's not my point. Did I improve temps by doing what I did? I know so, but you'll have to take my word on that (for the moment), just like the OP will have to take Rankers word on all that he says.

Arcygenical
Lab coats can be sexy too

Damn right!

 

[Narisatu]

*rolls his eyes to the lab coat comment* you guys a nuts.. but thats cool.

Anyway, I am probably building a case around the cooling system, Or I am going to mod a Lian Li PC343 to hell and back to make everything I want to put in there fit. Im planning on three loops, eventually, a CPU loop, a GPU loop, and a Chipset/memory/hdd loop.
Im planning for three loops, because im planning on cooling a Quad FX system, and hopefully still being able to use all of my PCI slots(hence, the looking at the Alphacool). I am certainly not against mounting things on the outside, or modding the case itself to make it a bit bigger to fit my needs. I'll give you all a description of my idea so that you have more information to give advice on. Keep in mind, I would love to be able to control all of this from ONE device (if the aquero can do it, ill use that, if the mcubed can do it, ill use that.)

Here goes:
Loop01=pump-cpu01-cpu10-rad-res
loop10 =pump-GPU01-GPU10-rad-res
loop11=pump-chipset01-chipset10-rad01-memory01-memory10-hdd-rad10-tline

I plan on using a 120.3 for loops 01,10, and a pair of 120.2s for loop 11 (yes, i do mean thermochills) I would like to use a single pump in each set though i think loop 11 might need two, not really sure at the moment, will definatly have to test that.
I want each block to have a thermal sensor on the block itself, or the water right above the block's transfer surface, will have to test that on a couple of the blocks. I want flow meters on every loop, at the end of the loop (so right after the res).

I will be running 100+cfm fans that i want to be able to undervolt to run nearly silently, then crank up when im gaming (I use AKG 240s, they block out outside noise pretty well. And they make most games sound beautiful.). I want to run 7 total on the rads, in pull configuration, all on shrouds. (if i end up mounting a bunch of the stuff outside the case ill end up using two shrouds, one to use as a mount, the other for the fans, with the rubber seals between each point (fans-shroud-rad-shroud-case) to make sure there is as sealed an air channel as possible.

I probably wont do the chipset/mem/hdd loop right away, will probably wait till i get everything else squared away first, then add that by the time i go to Boston University in Janurary.

The hardware specs, at this point, are unknown, but will be either a Quad FX, or Skulltrail system (hopefully skull trail is out by the time im ready to buy the hardware), and whatever the better graphics solution is at the time i am ready to buy. 8gb ddr2 at 800mhz (or 4, depending on which version of Vista i decide to go with), and a pair of raptors to run it.

The system is being designed as my gaming/work rig, with the majority of my information stored on another system (a server that i will bring with me, just a small one, about 8 drives total, and headless). When im working I want to set it to be just about silent, and when im sleeping/watching a movie, then, when im gaming, i dont care what it sounds like, i just want it to be smooth, cool, and fast.

Thanks for all the help thus far, try to stray from the arguing, just post opinions as opinions, and if you have facts, link them, thats the best help for me.. Thank you again guys.

 

[ikellensbro]

AC products can cool moderately well, depending on the model (cough*old Airplex Evos*cough). While direct Swiftech/DD/D-Tek vs. AC reviews are few and far between, most will agree that their currently offered components can be beaten in the performance category.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which is one (the/the primary?) reason why some choose to pay the extra for AC loops. The extra cost required to get this beauty is also up to the buyer, as everyone is different. Since you're not aiming for the best performance possible from water cooling, the looks vs. performance vs. value may make sense for you. In that case, your choice of CPU/GPU blocks isn't based on performance, so AC is an option for you.

Now for chipset(s), ram, and hd water cooling. Since you're not aiming for high OCs, you'll get perfectly fine performance with air. As for the noise, there are plenty of passive coolers (if needed at all) for your listed components, and a permanently (or aqjusted by Aquero) undervolted, silent fan will provide all the airflow you need to keep those parts nice and cool. If you really want to have extra tubes and primarily the extra couple hundred dollars it'll cost for a component loop, go right ahead. You won't need a DDC's power for that little heat, and you could easily get by with a single 120x1 BIP. Personally, I don't think this loop is needed at all, but I don't think an Aquero is worth it either, so to each their own.

Good luck in college, I envy your projected rig, and hope you're planning on getting a big case to go with everything .

 

[Ranker]

*rolls his eyes to the lab coat comment* you guys a nuts.. but thats cool.

Anyway, I am probably building a case around the cooling system, Or I am going to mod a Lian Li PC343 to hell and back to make everything I want to put in there fit. Im planning on three loops, eventually, a CPU loop, a GPU loop, and a Chipset/memory/hdd loop.
Im planning for three loops, because im planning on cooling a Quad FX system, and hopefully still being able to use all of my PCI slots(hence, the looking at the Alphacool). I am certainly not against mounting things on the outside, or modding the case itself to make it a bit bigger to fit my needs. I'll give you all a description of my idea so that you have more information to give advice on. Keep in mind, I would love to be able to control all of this from ONE device (if the aquero can do it, ill use that, if the mcubed can do it, ill use that.)

Here goes:
Loop01=pump-cpu01-cpu10-rad-res
loop10 =pump-GPU01-GPU10-rad-res
loop11=pump-chipset01-chipset10-rad01-memory01-memory10-hdd-rad10-tline

I plan on using a 120.3 for loops 01,10, and a pair of 120.2s for loop 11 (yes, i do mean thermochills) I would like to use a single pump in each set though i think loop 11 might need two, not really sure at the moment, will definatly have to test that.
I want each block to have a thermal sensor on the block itself, or the water right above the block's transfer surface, will have to test that on a couple of the blocks. I want flow meters on every loop, at the end of the loop (so right after the res).

I will be running 100+cfm fans that i want to be able to undervolt to run nearly silently, then crank up when im gaming (I use AKG 240s, they block out outside noise pretty well. And they make most games sound beautiful.). I want to run 7 total on the rads, in pull configuration, all on shrouds. (if i end up mounting a bunch of the stuff outside the case ill end up using two shrouds, one to use as a mount, the other for the fans, with the rubber seals between each point (fans-shroud-rad-shroud-case) to make sure there is as sealed an air channel as possible.

I probably wont do the chipset/mem/hdd loop right away, will probably wait till i get everything else squared away first, then add that by the time i go to Boston University in Janurary.

The hardware specs, at this point, are unknown, but will be either a Quad FX, or Skulltrail system (hopefully skull trail is out by the time im ready to buy the hardware), and whatever the better graphics solution is at the time i am ready to buy. 8gb ddr2 at 800mhz (or 4, depending on which version of Vista i decide to go with), and a pair of raptors to run it.

The system is being designed as my gaming/work rig, with the majority of my information stored on another system (a server that i will bring with me, just a small one, about 8 drives total, and headless). When im working I want to set it to be just about silent, and when im sleeping/watching a movie, then, when im gaming, i dont care what it sounds like, i just want it to be smooth, cool, and fast.

Thanks for all the help thus far, try to stray from the arguing, just post opinions as opinions, and if you have facts, link them, thats the best help for me.. Thank you again guys.

I imagine you're going to be an engineering student simply by looking at how you refer to your components through bits.

I haven't seen any mention of monetary constraints so I'd suggest you head over to Mountainmods.com and have them build a custom case to hold all three radiators. It'll make life easier as most cases out there, including the Lian Li cube will not have the correct fan hole cutouts to mount PA rads. I currently have a U2 with a three loop system and I seriously can barely fit everything in there. I wish I purchased a custom case instead so that my wiring wouldn't be so tight.

The mCubed line will be able to control your pumps and fans based upon whatever digital AND analogue sensors read your temps at. You'll be able to undervolt and overvolt your system through either preconfigured settings or through power/temperature curves (automation). You can hook up to 8 digital thermometers (more accurate than trashy analogue thermometers that come with most other bay devices that need to be calibrated) as well as 4 analogue thermometers and flow meters.

Shrouds themselves will offer little benefit if you do decide to go push/pull. Shrouds only demonstrate a performance gain for low CFM designed radiators like the thermochills. And even then, the performance gain is only seen with a pull configuration.

Have fun in BU. I spent two years there before transferring. I just hope you're prepared for the winters. For a California raised student, I was in for quite the shock.

 

[Narisatu]

I imagine you're going to be an engineering student simply by looking at how you refer to your components through bits.

Computer Science, Cyrptology is my major, actually, but i will be minoring in electrical engineering, at the very least.

I haven't seen any mention of monetary constraints so I'd suggest you head over to Mountainmods.com and have them build a custom case to hold all three radiators. It'll make life easier as most cases out there, including the Lian Li cube will not have the correct fan hole cutouts to mount PA rads. I currently have a U2 with a three loop system and I seriously can barely fit everything in there. I wish I purchased a custom case instead so that my wiring wouldn't be so tight. [/quote}

I may do that, though i was planning on drilling holes in the top or right-hand side of the lain li to fit everything, and make 5.25" bay mounts for the pumps, unless i go with the Aquastreams, then i dont need to, they can attach to the back of the aquabay.

The mCubed line will be able to control your pumps and fans based upon whatever digital AND analogue sensors read your temps at. You'll be able to undervolt and overvolt your system through either preconfigured settings or through power/temperature curves (automation). You can hook up to 8 digital thermometers (more accurate than trashy analogue thermometers that come with most other bay devices that need to be calibrated) as well as 4 analogue thermometers and flow meters.

the Mcubed line sounds like what i want to use, I would love to see how yours is set up, i didnt really get much out of the madshrimps review pictures

Shrouds themselves will offer little benefit if you do decide to go push/pull. Shrouds only demonstrate a performance gain for low CFM designed radiators like the thermochills. And even then, the performance gain is only seen with a pull configuration.

I was planning on a pull configuration, not push pull (i dont know if i said that or not..) the second shroud i would be using as a mount.

Have fun in BU. I spent two years there before transferring. I just hope you're prepared for the winters. For a California raised student, I was in for quite the shock.

Haha, I have lived in Maine my entire life. And i just spent a school year in New York. Ill think ill be fine. :-P (oh, New york sucks for compsci schools.)

 

[Top Nurse]

I took a few more screen shots of the AquaSuite software. However, they just posted a new update so these pics are already out of date. How's that for flexibility and usability.

Please note I haven't had the time to fill in the blanks on some of this software as yet. Devices like these allow people to really know what is going on in their water cooling system and see in real time what happens if you change the flow rate or fan parameters.

The alternative to knowing what is really going on inside your cooling system is to depend on always going bigger is better and being totally in the dark about what is really going on.

As you probably have noticed I added in a water sensor that senses the water going into the radiator. Thus I can now see what effects fan performance has on my cooling system. Soon I will be putting in a flow meter as well.


This screen allows me to adjust the Aquastream pump(s).

This screen allows me to make the water turn from blue to red in my Aquatube depending on the temp settings that I configure.

The next four screens are for configuring the fans.

 

[Top Nurse]

BTW, the G 1/4 Cuplex XT's are expected in the June shipment to Sharka according to Wes. We might even see some of the Cuplex Double Impacts as well.

 

[Erasmus354]

Hmm to go back to the car analogies that Top Nurse so often favors.

All those options for the aquaero software are a bit depressing. It is like a formula one car with all the extra sensors and gauges to measure every little bit of the car....the depressing part is it is like those gauges were installed in some old 70s car. Probably beautiful to look at...but why would you want to know 18 different oil temperatures in a car that isn't designed for performance?

The only area where I feel AC has done anything good is with the aquaero and the aquasuite. Their blocks are mediocre at best. The double impact seems needlessly restrictive, it took the longest time for them to come to their senses and offer a stronger pump to go with their restrictive tubing. All in all, its a shame really. Also their reliance upon aluminum is annoying as well.

The only reason to get a system that uses all aqua computer parts is if you absolutely can't live without them. Some people fawn over their looks as if it were the next coming of jesus. Personally, I don't care for their blocks...look similar to most other things on the market. From a price / performance standpoint there is zero, repeat ZERO, reason for operating any aqua computer components in your loop. Everything they can do can be done for cheaper, and better by other solutions. If it can't, then it is something frivilous and useless like changing the color of some lights for reason X.

 

[Ranker]

Hmm to go back to the car analogies that Top Nurse so often favors.

All those options for the aquaero software are a bit depressing. It is like a formula one car with all the extra sensors and gauges to measure every little bit of the car....the depressing part is it is like those gauges were installed in some old 70s car. Probably beautiful to look at...but why would you want to know 18 different oil temperatures in a car that isn't designed for performance?

The only area where I feel AC has done anything good is with the aquaero and the aquasuite. Their blocks are mediocre at best. The double impact seems needlessly restrictive, it took the longest time for them to come to their senses and offer a stronger pump to go with their restrictive tubing. All in all, its a shame really. Also their reliance upon aluminum is annoying as well.

The only reason to get a system that uses all aqua computer parts is if you absolutely can't live without them. Some people fawn over their looks as if it were the next coming of jesus. Personally, I don't care for their blocks...look similar to most other things on the market. From a price / performance standpoint there is zero, repeat ZERO, reason for operating any aqua computer components in your loop. Everything they can do can be done for cheaper, and better by other solutions. If it can't, then it is something frivilous and useless like changing the color of some lights for reason X.

Best post in the thread yet.

The only area where I feel AC has done anything good is with the aquaero and the aquasuite. Their blocks are mediocre at best. The double impact seems needlessly restrictive, it took the longest time for them to come to their senses and offer a stronger pump to go with their restrictive tubing. All in all, its a shame really. Also their reliance upon aluminum is annoying as well.

Most of us have thought the same thing. It looks like its more restrictive than the Storm; I never thought I'd live to see the day where I'd say that. It's going to need a serious pump to good performance from that block. You can also forget about throwing any other blocks in a loop with it for flow restriction alone.

 

[Narisatu]

well, i really like the Aquasuite now, so looks like i will definatly be using AC for control, but, im thinking im going to go with either the D-tek FuZion cpu block, or the Appogee GTX swiftech block. Chipset blocks will be swiftech, and im still up in the air on the GPU block. probably going to end up with an alphacool, to test it out, if i dont like it, back it goes, and ill pick up an EK and possibly undertake a little motherboard modding to fix my PCI issue.... *starts thinking* though that could be tricky, i think i have a small enough soldering iron.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Why not have the best of both worlds? I achieve a nice over clock with my e6600 (3.5ghz) and get everything in the world as far as control. If you don't want to spend 600 bucks on an Aquaduct (well worth the money), go with an alphacool pump with new head and the Fuzion. I read somewhere you can overclock the pump via Aquasuite with the right module.

 

[Top Nurse]

well, i really like the Aquasuite now, so looks like i will definatly be using AC for control, but, im thinking im going to go with either the D-tek FuZion cpu block, or the Appogee GTX swiftech block. Chipset blocks will be swiftech, and im still up in the air on the GPU block. probably going to end up with an alphacool, to test it out, if i dont like it, back it goes, and ill pick up an EK and possibly undertake a little motherboard modding to fix my PCI issue.... *starts thinking* though that could be tricky, i think i have a small enough soldering iron.

That's the best thing about the Aquaero as it can be utilized in just about any size water cooling circuit.

 

[Top Nurse]

Why not have the best of both worlds? I achieve a nice over clock with my e6600 (3.5ghz) and get everything in the world as far as control. If you don't want to spend 600 bucks on an Aquaduct (well worth the money), go with an alphacool pump with new head and the Fuzion. I read somewhere you can overclock the pump via Aquasuite with the right module.

Wow! A D-Tek with push-fits. What size are those tubes?

 

[Top Nurse]

Hmm to go back to the car analogies that Top Nurse so often favors.

All those options for the aquaero software are a bit depressing. It is like a formula one car with all the extra sensors and gauges to measure every little bit of the car....the depressing part is it is like those gauges were installed in some old 70s car. Probably beautiful to look at...but why would you want to know 18 different oil temperatures in a car that isn't designed for performance?

The only area where I feel AC has done anything good is with the aquaero and the aquasuite. Their blocks are mediocre at best. The double impact seems needlessly restrictive, it took the longest time for them to come to their senses and offer a stronger pump to go with their restrictive tubing. All in all, its a shame really. Also their reliance upon aluminum is annoying as well.

The only reason to get a system that uses all aqua computer parts is if you absolutely can't live without them. Some people fawn over their looks as if it were the next coming of jesus. Personally, I don't care for their blocks...look similar to most other things on the market. From a price / performance standpoint there is zero, repeat ZERO, reason for operating any aqua computer components in your loop. Everything they can do can be done for cheaper, and better by other solutions. If it can't, then it is something frivilous and useless like changing the color of some lights for reason X.

Nice to see you back here.

One of the things I love about AC bashers is their tendency to twist and distort the truth (FUD) to what ever suits their purpose. First it was Ranker decrying that AC wasn't a good investment because they didn't make new mountings for their coolers even though all AC coolers have mountings made for all processors. In fact they pioneered the concept of replaceable mounting screens for water cooling blocks. Before AC, if you wanted a new mount you were expected to buy a new cooler.

Now we get Erasmus354 claiming that the AC stuff is crap. BTW, they were offering DDC pumps for sale some three years ago. They made a hardware/software controller for the Laing pumps that interfaces with the AquaSuite some 6 months ago. Do you see any other domestic company making this kind of product? Probably not because they don't have the infrastructure to support a total water cooling concept like AC, Innovatek, and Koolance. What they can't make in a machine shop they farm out or out buy.

So how do you know anything about the Double Impact cooler other than seeing two pics of it? Is this objective? From the way I see it it is more FUD.

Interestingly, they appear to have sold many thousands of these Aquaero devices (my serial number is 4453) so somebody must think they have merit. I can't say that most of those sold have ended up in AC systems or not, but I suppose it is a good bet.

One of the things I get a kick out of the big is better crowd is that they only want to believe in sterile laboratory testing. Now that I have a state-of-the-art water cooling system that will report on whatever minuscule changes in the water cooling system I make can be easily tracked and data compared I get more FUD.

When I doubled the output flow in my system what do YOU think happened?

 

[Ranker]

Nice to see you back here.

One of the things I love about AC bashers is their tendency to twist and distort the truth (FUD) to what ever suits their purpose. First it was Ranker decrying that AC wasn't a good investment because they didn't make new mountings for their coolers even though all AC coolers have mountings made for all processors. In fact they pioneered the concept of replaceable mounting screens for water cooling blocks. Before AC, if you wanted a new mount you were expected to buy a new cooler.

Please. The grandfather's of watercooling, DD and Swiftech have long supported new processors with updated mounting kits; Swiftech still maintains great support for new cpu's and chipsets (while DD has fallen off a bit). AC is crap not because of mounting upkeep, but due simply to performance, their use of aluminum, and the price they charge for a subpar product.

Now we get Erasmus354 claiming that the AC stuff is crap. BTW, they were offering DDC pumps for sale some three years ago. They made a hardware/software controller for the Laing pumps that interfaces with the AquaSuite some 6 months ago. Do you see any other domestic company making this kind of product? Probably not because they don't have the infrastructure to support a total water cooling concept like AC, Innovatek, and Koolance. What they can't make in a machine shop they farm out or out buy.

DDC pumps have been part of the community for quite some time. I'm not even sure how this relates to AC blocks in general. mCubed beat AC to the market with a hardware/software control suite for pumps and fans. Check your facts please; AC wasn't the first. mCubed came out with the T-Balancer way way back in 2004. This ain't exactly something new here like the AC suite. The only FUD I see being spread is by you. If you're supporting the likes of Inno and Koolance in conjunction with AC, then there's really not much left to say. That speaks for itself when you're defending companies as such. Justify your purchase however you wish for yourself, but don't drag others down with you into making similar mistakes when it comes to purchasing equipment.

So how do you know anything about the Double Impact cooler other than seeing two pics of it? Is this objective? From the way I see it it is more FUD.

No it's not the most objective method, but call a spade a spade. You'd have to be blind to not acknowledge that it looks exactly like the pin hole design of the Storm, except with a shinier enclosure (oh how people love shiney things!).

Interestingly, they appear to have sold many thousands of these Aquaero devices (my serial number is 4453) so somebody must think they have merit. I can't say that most of those sold have ended up in AC systems or not, but I suppose it is a good bet.

One of the things I get a kick out of the big is better crowd is that they only want to believe in sterile laboratory testing. Now that I have a state-of-the-art water cooling system that will report on whatever minuscule changes in the water cooling system I make can be easily tracked and data compared I get more FUD.

When I doubled the output flow in my system what do YOU think happened?

It's nice to know that you live and die by one company's products. And I thought the Xbox360 vs PS3 vs Wii fanboys/fangirls were bad...

 

[Erasmus354]

Top Nurse, there was no FUD in my post. In fact I was quite guarded in how I referred to AC. I never said it was crap, I never said it performed poorly. I said it performed worse at a higher price than its competitors. Now that is bad from a business perspective, but never once did I say their performance was bad.

The DDC was on the market and in widespread use by "western" systems, and even alphacool, long before Aqua Computer adopted it. Once again, I never said AC just adopted the DDC, I said it took them a long time to adopt it.

Serial Numbers do not necessarily imply anything about how many were made. That being said, just because 10 million Ford Pinto's were sold does that make it a good car?

As for the double impact cooler, I can tell it will be restrictive by looking at the top plate and its name. From what I can tell it is the same design as a Cuplex XT. The difference being it goes through one set of jets, then back up, then through another set of jets, then out the outlet. This would be the "double impact" they are alluding to. First of all, jets are restrictive, second of all the pathing inside the block to go through jets twice is extra restriction that is not needed. They could have gotten the same, or very similar results from simply enlarging the jet array of the Cuplex XT without doing the pointless "double impact" thing.

Aqua Computer needs to start designing their waterblocks intelligently to match their market. They seem to stick to these high restriction designs. What they should be doing is moving towards the Fuzion / Apogee side of the spectrum. Waterblocks with good low flow performance, and low restriction are the best match for the typical Aqua Computer setup. Since most AC people like low flow, quiet pumps, a low restriction good low flow performance block would be ideal. So why do they continue to insist upon high restriction blocks?

No Top Nurse, there is no FUD here, simply facts and solid observations. If you take of your rose colored glasses and actually read what I say, and not what you think I said you would see that. Don't try to read into my words, take them at face value. There is no hidden agenda here.

 

[Arcygenical]

.

 

[Shoggy]

The watercooling world over here in Germany is so easy. You just buy a watercooling system which you like (the look, the price, whatever...), you install it and don't really care about its performance because you know it doesn't really matter if your CPU runs 3°C higher or lower.

I think it's also no secret that the most people over here make fun of the widely common garden-tube-systems with their killer-pumps in the USA

Well, why do some people drive a luxus car for $50.000 and others a simple car for $5.000? In fact both have four wheels and will bring me from A to B

 

[slame]

Hell yes ...

i knew i registered once on this little forum.
registered 2004 and this is my first post.

Just dropped in to quote myself from various other topics where i answered to our customers.

My personal oppinion on reviews is ...

as long as i didn´t do the review on my own i don´t trust them. There are some actual examples out there showing what i mean. Take a look who is sponsor of a site and think again about reviews. I don´t mean any special site with this oppinion, but i know that there are so many "mistakes" while testing.

We do our own testing but don´t show them public. If the cooler wouldn´t perform good there would be no release.


Some more about testing.

1. you need to have the same room temperature on all tests.
2. no whiffs allowed
3. the pressure on the processor needs to be the same on every cooler
4. thermal compound needs to be the same everytime
5. error ratio on temperatures

and on and on and on, i could do this for hours

See .. it´s nearly impossible for any amateur / semipro site to do serious testing. and if u only have one "mistake" the results will differ a lot.


and btw ... i don´t care about flow ratio

my rig ...

airplex evo 360
airplex evo 240
airplex evo 1800
2 aquadrives
cuplex XT
ABIT OTES voltage regulator cooler
2 ramplex
2 small ABIT voltage regulator coolers
1 NB twinplex
1 SB twinplex
2 aquatubes
1 aquapower
1 aquagratix1900 core pro

and the pump ? is an aquastream on standard flow

CPU is a Core2Duo6600 and it runs with 3600 Mhz. i can also overclock it up to 4000 Mhz stable

The temperature is max 55° C

so who cares about flow rates. flow rates are overrated as hell.

gimme the same rig and worse temperature .. i overclock higher

Cheers

slame aka Stefan Krumme / aqua computer Berlin

 

[Narisatu]

Slame, shoggy, or Top Nurse, does the AC 8800GTX block allow the use of the pci slot on either side of the graphics slot?

 

[slame]

yes it does.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

CPU is a Core2Duo6600 and it runs with 3600 Mhz. i can also overclock it up to 4000 Mhz stable

The temperature is max 55° C

so who cares about flow rates. flow rates are overrated as hell.

gimme the same rig and worse temperature .. i overclock higher

Cheers

slame aka Stefan Krumme / aqua computer Berlin

Great statement and wish more people could think outside the box.

The power of marketing is incredible in the USA.

ps - nice to see you post over here slame, I've followed your posts on WizD forums for a long time.

 

[Ranker]

Hell yes ...

i knew i registered once on this little forum.
registered 2004 and this is my first post.

Just dropped in to quote myself from various other topics where i answered to our customers.

My personal oppinion on reviews is ...

as long as i didn´t do the review on my own i don´t trust them. There are some actual examples out there showing what i mean. Take a look who is sponsor of a site and think again about reviews. I don´t mean any special site with this oppinion, but i know that there are so many "mistakes" while testing.

We do our own testing but don´t show them public. If the cooler wouldn´t perform good there would be no release.


Some more about testing.

1. you need to have the same room temperature on all tests.
2. no whiffs allowed
3. the pressure on the processor needs to be the same on every cooler
4. thermal compound needs to be the same everytime
5. error ratio on temperatures

and on and on and on, i could do this for hours

See .. it´s nearly impossible for any amateur / semipro site to do serious testing. and if u only have one "mistake" the results will differ a lot.


and btw ... i don´t care about flow ratio

my rig ...

airplex evo 360
airplex evo 240
airplex evo 1800
2 aquadrives
cuplex XT
ABIT OTES voltage regulator cooler
2 ramplex
2 small ABIT voltage regulator coolers
1 NB twinplex
1 SB twinplex
2 aquatubes
1 aquapower
1 aquagratix1900 core pro

and the pump ? is an aquastream on standard flow

CPU is a Core2Duo6600 and it runs with 3600 Mhz. i can also overclock it up to 4000 Mhz stable

The temperature is max 55° C

so who cares about flow rates. flow rates are overrated as hell.

gimme the same rig and worse temperature .. i overclock higher

Cheers

slame aka Stefan Krumme / aqua computer Berlin

Now ain't that some FUD. The height of your overclock has nothing to do with watercooling at all. You're limited by other extraneous factors such as the quality of your CPU stepping, the voltages allowed by your motherboard, motherboard stability, etc. The whole point of watercooling is being able to SUSTAIN overclocks by keeping temperatures as low as possible to keep electromigration as low as possible.

It's funny how AC is taking a play from the Republican playbook. Since they can't find any legitimate sites to back up some wild claims here that AC products can beat current performance leaders, they now resort towards attacking the methodology of these reviewers as well as claiming that temperatures aren't important. Why watercool at all (besides the quietness factor)?

Simply put, a company who digs its head in the sand and ignores the natural evolution of watercooling is doing a disservice to the watercooling community.

 

[Top Nurse]

No Top Nurse, there is no FUD here, simply facts and solid observations. If you take of your rose colored glasses and actually read what I say, and not what you think I said you would see that. Don't try to read into my words, take them at face value. There is no hidden agenda here.

You forgot to comment on my question: "When I doubled the output flow in my system what do YOU think happened?"

 

[Top Nurse]

Hell yes ...

i knew i registered once on this little forum.
registered 2004 and this is my first post. slame aka Stefan Krumme / aqua computer Berlin

Thanks for dropping by Stefan.


Interesting thread here in the [H] today about DDC pumps.

 

[Top Nurse]

Great statement and wish more people could think outside the box.

The power of marketing is incredible in the USA.

Nice to see you around here. What was the size of those tubes on the D-Tek?

I'm a registered nurse in my professional life so I am trained to think outside the box. Water cooling is a lot like the cooling that goes on in a human body in many respects. Everything must be balanced and no particular parameter is more important than another if you want to maintain homeostasis.

Same holds true in water cooling. Everything works together to make a good cooling solution. Doesn't matter whether you got a big one, a small one, or a normal size one. What matters is understanding the big picture instead of focusing in on minute detail. Thus by utilizing the correct components you can create what ever you want. The problem comes in when you start mixing ideologies.

My current system runs just fine and I KNOW what is happening inside my water circuit because I have the control and monitoring hardware and software installed to see real time changes.

 

[slame]

Now ain't that some FUD. The height of your overclock has nothing to do with watercooling at all. You're limited by other extraneous factors such as the quality of your CPU stepping, the voltages allowed by your motherboard, motherboard stability, etc. The whole point of watercooling is being able to SUSTAIN overclocks by keeping temperatures as low as possible to keep electromigration as low as possible.

It's funny how AC is taking a play from the Republican playbook. Since they can't find any legitimate sites to back up some wild claims here that AC products can beat current performance leaders, they now resort towards attacking the methodology of these reviewers as well as claiming that temperatures aren't important. Why watercool at all (besides the quietness factor)?

Simply put, a company who digs its head in the sand and ignores the natural evolution of watercooling is doing a disservice to the watercooling community.

ah yes .... sorry, must be my bad english you don´t understand what i was sayin. my fault.

1. overclocking has also to do with some watercooling, but as i already said it has nothing to do with little temperature differences. big difference .. is this the right word ? it certainly has to do with hardware and experience.

2. electromigration ? cool, you know some other words for "your cpu is living longer". Or did i misunderstand you ?

3. watercooling is for silence, thats what we think. The overclocking is just a side effect. and yes ... the electromigration of course.

4. i dont attack any reviewer, i just know that it is impossible to do good testing. thats something else, sorry for my bad english. btw .. some editors from Gruntville say i´m right with my oppinion on reviews. but perhaps it was just they misunderstood me.

5. oh ? we disservice the watercooling community ? why ? because we have graphic blocks available just in time with the release (R600) or is it because we build controls for Pumps we don´t sell ? gimme some good reasons and stop flaming.

please, thx

slame

 

[Shoggy]

3. watercooling is for silence, thats what we think.

And here we have the main difference between the German and the American market

 

[Erasmus354]

And here we have the main difference between the German and the American market

Really? Because my watercooling system is silent.... Tubing size and waterblock design has ZERO impact on noise. It is all the fans / radiator / pump.

 

[Bio-Hazard]

And here we have the main difference between the German and the American market

And that's why I now live in the land of performance (USA) and use performance water cooling components,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Nothing wrong with all that pretty over engineered stuff if that's what you are all about I guess. I'm just glad that I'm not the one paying all those over paid engineers salery.................

 

[Top Nurse]

I see that Erasmus354 wasn't taking the bait so I will show you what happens when doubling the flow. When you increase the Aquastream pump from the default frequency of 47 Hertz to 70 Hertz you just about double the flow rate. I don't have a flow meter as yet, but others have reported similar results that do have flow meters installed in their AC rigs.

So here is the specs on my system when using a 70 Hertz rate:

And here is the specs on my system with the default rate of 47 Hertz and I let the temps equalize about 15 minutes before snapping this pic:

Please note that even though I turned off the radiator fans for this exercise there was still air flowing through the radiator. I designed my system so even with the radiator fans off I would still get airflow from the intake case fans and hot air rises as the air is bathed across the HD's. For this exercise I set my case fans at a specific power output so it wouldn't vary the airflow in my case.

So let's do the math here:

Intake water coming from the system before the radiator:

At 70 Hertz = 37.1 C => Minus the temp at 47 Hertz of 38.6 C = A whopping 1.5 C difference.

Now lets do the water coming out of the radiator:

At 70 Hertz = 35.7 C => Minus the temp at 47 Hertz of 37.1 C = A whopping 1.4 C difference.

Please take into account that this is my rig and so the data only applies to this rig. I'm not so silly as to try and extrapolate my data as being what you will get in your individual system (like some others here who keep quoting laboratory specs) so Caveat Emptor!

I think I should put in an ambient sensor here so I can correlate that with the other data I am collecting.


Whoops I found an error! The power output changed by 1% between the two measurements. Guess I need to set the hysteresis so it doesn't make any changes or turn off the all the fans.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Now ain't that some FUD. The height of your overclock has nothing to do with watercooling at all. You're limited by other extraneous factors such as the quality of your CPU stepping, the voltages allowed by your motherboard, motherboard stability, etc. The whole point of watercooling is being able to SUSTAIN overclocks by keeping temperatures as low as possible to keep electromigration as low as possible.

It's funny how AC is taking a play from the Republican playbook. Since they can't find any legitimate sites to back up some wild claims here that AC products can beat current performance leaders, they now resort towards attacking the methodology of these reviewers as well as claiming that temperatures aren't important. Why watercool at all (besides the quietness factor)?

Simply put, a company who digs its head in the sand and ignores the natural evolution of watercooling is doing a disservice to the watercooling community.

I hate to say it but narrow minded thoughts like yours are the main reason we see so many "just bought a garden hose configuration and my temps still suck" on this forum. I hate to bust your bubble but the temp difference between 1/2" and 6mm is only 2-4c which will not make or brake an overclock. You could also note that this very forums website doens't use 1/2" based watercooling for reviews and testing....

I hate to sound repetitive but you need to get past the fact that size of tubing has the least affect on overall performance of a computer.

 

[Ranker]

I hate to say it but narrow minded thoughts like yours are the main reason we see so many "just bought a garden hose configuration and my temps still suck" on this forum. I hate to bust your bubble but the temp difference between 1/2" and 6mm is only 2-4c which will not make or brake an overclock. You could also note that this very forums website doens't use 1/2" based watercooling for reviews and testing....

I hate to sound repetitive but you need to get past the fact that size of tubing has the least affect on overall performance of a computer.

Please reread my comments. Reading comprehension helps. The level of your overclock is not determined by your cooling setup. Watercooling only helps sustain overclock by keeping temperatures down to slow down electromigration. No where have I argued that tubing size makes or breaks a watercooling setup. Does it provide better performance? Yes it does. Is it as significant as other components in a loop? Nope, not even close. Do I ever emphasize that it does? Nope. Reading comprehension helps.

One's radiator, pump, and waterblock itself plays a much more important role in the performance of a water cooling loop. The best performing loops incorporate a few key elements: non restrictive waterblocks, copper based waterblocks, non restrictive radiators with efficient fin design, and a powerful pump. So in essence, I have no idea where you're getting these ideas that I value tube size above all else. Please do a search on all of my posts on these boards.

 

[Top Nurse]

2. electromigration ? cool, you know some other words for "your cpu is living longer". Or did i misunderstand you ?

slame

You've been pwned Ranker.

 

[ikellensbro]

This is why I'm not so interested in water cooling anymore. Water cooling is pretty much dead as far as major advances go: just look at the ProCooling forums. Except for Quad cores and equally hot GPUs, there isn't that much more room for improvement anymore, but at these heat levels, we do see noticeable differences. Check out the Fuzion - it can beat the Apogee by a couple of degrees, which is a big deal nowadays.

So, AC vs. U.S.A., who wins?

Performance wise, Bigger is Better. How much better? It depends, but trying to deny that (all things equal) lower flow > higher flow is like arguing that the world is flat. TN, as you have shown, in some cases, doubling the flow doesn't make such a big difference. You HDs saw a very tiny imporvement, along with your water temp. However, hard drives and water temp are not as important as actual CPU/GPU(/even chipset) temps. Some blocks barely see any improvement after a certain point - check out the 6002. For its time, great performance at low flow rates, but it doesn't get that much more out of more flow. Now check out blocks like the Storm(G4)/G5. They greatly benefit from extra flow, which is why people lined up on this continent to order them from Australia when they came out. Comparisons: http://www.procooling.com/index.php?func=articles&disp=131. If you think even a 1/4" (6mm) loop isn't restrictive, check this out:

Notice the two highlighted rows: changing just the fittings and tubing to 3/8" (10mm) gives a 2.5*C improvement (DeltaT, or increase over ambient temperature, which is what show real world performance). Swap out the weak pump, the restrictive radiator, the block for one that performs just as well with less resistance, and the improvements add up quickly. On a hotter system, the improvent is even more noticeable (a C/W of 0.10 compared to 0.15 means 5*C at 100 watts, 10*C at 200, 15*C at 300, etc.). Will 2.5*C make or break an OC? Depends on your definition of make or break: that added stability could be the difference between 3.9 and 4.0GHz.

Of course, that's not the whole story. Different blocks will get different flow in the same loops. Check this out:

With the low pressure and flow provided by a 1046, the NexXxos XP (similar to the Cuplex XT) is beat by a Swiftech 6000 (not even the native 1/2" model). In a much more restrictive loop (cough*yours slame *cough), the performance difference will be even more noticeable. I will gladly provide more information/evidence as asked, but I hope I've made my point by what I've written (which I've said plenty of times months/years ago).

Slame, 55*C is...awful by this forum's standards. is your e6600 rated for even higher temperatures? Sure, but just like a car (ah, more car analogies), you don't run a car at redline 24/7. With a less restrictive loop with better performing components, you could likely see temperatures in the 40's at worst, which should give you more OC headroom. Cooler chips have longer lives and (more importantly in this forum) higher OC potential. Is this the case for everyone? No, but there's a reason why world records are set on LN2, and the highest 24/7 OCs are done on phase change. Every chip is different, but you're holding yourself back choosing to go low flow? How much? Could be nothing, could be several hundred MHz.

Can AC give you great OCs? Slame has given a fine example proving this to be true.
Will AC give you the highest OCs, at the lowest temperatures, at a much cheaper cost? No, no, and no.
Does AC have more bling/looks in its favor? Some say yes, some say no - it's up to the individual consumer.
Does AC offer the most control of a complete loop? Sure, and it depends on who actually uses it. TN, for example, has her Aquero set to change fan speeds and led colors at different temperatures. In my case, my system sits 2 feet away from me, and my pump has a slightly different tone that I can pick out from my hard drives, so I know if my pump isn't working. An Aquero can set your computer to shut off at different temperature ranges - so can many free programs, if not built in hardware shut-offs. Do I think an Aquero is a $150 fan/light/(useless) pump/temperature monitor and controller? Yes. Do TN and a few thousand others agree with me? Probably not. It all depends on the consumer.

Now can we get back to Narisatu's questions?
You can use an Aquero with a non-AC loop just fine, but be careful of overly restrictive add-ons(especially the flow meter) or you'll take a big flow hit. For CPU blocks, FuZions are your best bet currently, but I'm not completely sure what you're looking for in a GPU block. Hope that helps.

 

[Arcygenical]

You've been pwned Ranker.

I'm not so sure TN...

Electromigration is the literal shearing of ions from the interconnects between different semiconductor lattices, which are then re-deposited at a later point in the IC.

Electromigration, however, isn't an important influence at all for modern CPU's under water. The voltage levels (and temperature levels) required for electromigration to occur are much higher then the average operating conditions any modern processor would face. This process is accelerated by high temperatures (a 2x increase in temperature can quadruple the rate of electromigration) and high voltages, but both of these extreme conditions are mainly limited to hardcore overclockers, employing TEC or LN2 systems to run 24/7 or for a suicide shot.

Most modern IC's are created with fault preventing redundancy and EM tollerances... outside of a few different problems earlier in the consumer computer market, I've yet to hear any definite case of a IC dead from EM... The effects are very similar to static damage anyways, and we all know static gets huge publicity these days.

And here we have the main difference between the German and the American market

My system measures 28db under load from 2ft with the case closed, which can be dropped to 24dba during my sleep time (all day ). It used to be quieter, but I added in another fan for some extra cooling. My e6300 with an 80% overclock loads at 43c in a a very temperature controlled room (22c at all times). I'm personally not stuck up on flow-rate, as I'll be quick to admit my pump runs at 2/5 (Laing D5) and increasing it has NO effect on my temperatures, but I do have another question...

Since we have 3 AC diehards/engineers/employees in this thread, I'd like to ask a question out of complete curiosity. Why is aluminum still used in your blocks? I know you guys employ a good hard anodizing service (expensive too, from what I hear, upwards of 5e per piece) but what are the virtues of aluminum over copper, other than their machineability?

I've never been able to get a satisfactory response, as these types of threads deteriorate into complete madness and get locked, before any good information can be contributed .

 

[Top Nurse]

Since we have 3 AC diehards/engineers/employees in this thread, I'd like to ask a question out of complete curiosity. Why is aluminum still used in your blocks? I know you guys employ a good hard anodizing service (expensive too, from what I hear, upwards of 5e per piece) but what are the virtues of aluminum over copper, other than their machineability?

I've never been able to get a satisfactory response, as these types of threads deteriorate into complete madness and get locked, before any good information can be contributed .

Well what we really have here are:

• Slame: An AC distributor in Berlin, Germany.
• Top Nurse: A user of AC products.
• Shoggy: A moderator of the Aqua Computer Forum.

So there are no AC engineers here at the moment...

My guess is that for certain things it doesn't make a lot of sense to use copper when aluminum will work just as well. Almost all their water blocks are made from copper except the voltage regulator blocks, IIRC. The Aquatube is made out of aluminum and their is no issue of cooling in a reservoir. Aluminum is much easier to to do internal boring work than copper is and can you imagine the expense of a 3-4" round billet of copper! There were some copper Aquatubes made many years ago and from what I understand it was such a machining disaster that they refuse to ever do it again.

Providing you use the anti-corrosion inhibitor (AC Fluid) there isn't a corrosion problem anyway. So who cares?

They also make silver blocks as well.

 

[Arcygenical]

Ahh, a "the more you know" moment I guess . thanks for the clarification on who'se what around the AC scene.

As for the copper aquatube, I totally agree there. That makes obvious sense, a billet of round copper stock like that would weigh upwards of 20lbs and take FOREVER to drill out . at 6.75 a lb, that's one hell of a bill of materials!

About corrosion, simply isolating the pieces electrically will prevent the issues anyways... Rubber washers preventing any aluminum to case contact will generally be enough to stave off most accelerated corrosion issues... You'll always get normal and salt corrosion, but not galvanic corrosion.

Silver waterblocks, now that's overkill

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Since we have 3 AC diehards/engineers/employees in this thread, I'd like to ask a question out of complete curiosity. Why is aluminum still used in your blocks? I know you guys employ a good hard anodizing service (expensive too, from what I hear, upwards of 5e per piece) but what are the virtues of aluminum over copper, other than their machineability?

I've never been able to get a satisfactory response, as these types of threads deteriorate into complete madness and get locked, before any good information can be contributed .

Maybe because they can? I've been using AC products for years and have yet to experience one problem with corrosion. The only problems I have seen is when too much AC Fluid or Diemotion is used.......

The only problems you will see posted on forums are from American made products where quality is next to nothing compared to getting a part made cheaper.