Amazon sharing your internet without consent

noko

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Clickbait article:


Tin-foil hat much? You already share your voice when using an Alexa or Echo, and they can listen to the audio. If you already trust them enough to use a smart speaker, this adds nothing more to the 'personal privacy and security' and it's 'balance'.



It only applies to Amazon devices, and only certain ones at that.




Are ring cameras being wireless somehow a concern, is my neighbor going to hack my cameras?? lol..


That's pretty secure. What's more likely, that your Ring cameras alert you to physical intrusion attempts, provide intrusion deterrence, or that the Ring camera's encryption is going to get cracked and "oh no!" someone can see my front porch!
Let see, it would be very nice to know how many live in you house, when you all leave, any kind of schedule you keep, be able to turn off your camera so the criminal can go inside and snoop and see if more information can be robbed from you or just plain rob you, kidnap your kid etc. while you think you are totally secured and blind that you gave someone the key to your house with minimal chance of being detected or caught. Porch camera would do just fine for that.

Are you saying networks are never compromised? If so, I like to see what blinders you are wearing. There is also a certain level of trust folks give to these companies but then you have no clue the integrity of the workers, what information can be compromised or obtain by then and sold to the highest bidder. Hey, pssst, I have 10,000 Echo or some other system passwords/account info. . . how much will you give me? Just a very cursory search will give you the real answer.

https://www.consumerreports.org/home-security-cameras/keep-home-security-cameras-from-being-hacked/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...esla-jails-in-breach-of-150-000-security-cams
https://abcnews.go.com/US/ring-secu...ners-subjected-racial-abuse/story?id=67679790
 

NavyVet1

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I am a long time user here (joined in 2005) with over 1,700 posts but I created a new account to make this post. I am doing this because what I am about to reveal I want kept secret.

This is something I hate to disclose because I do not want pity, I am a paralyzed veteran, a quadriplegic confined to a wheelchair and paralyzed from the chest down. I have been stuck in this wheelchair for 30 years (I was injured when I was 24) and I live alone. After I go to bed I am helpless until I get back in my wheelchair. Turning my home into a smart home has been a miracle. From my bed I can control my computer, TV, heat, air conditioning, lights, telephone and even my door.

Some of us do not have a choice.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I am a long time user here (joined in 2005) with over 1,700 posts but I created a new account to make this post. I am doing this because what I am about to reveal I want kept secret.

This is something I hate to disclose because I do not want pity, I am a paralyzed veteran, a quadriplegic confined to a wheelchair and paralyzed from the chest down. I have been stuck in this wheelchair for 30 years (I was injured when I was 24) and I live alone. After I go to bed I am helpless until I get back in my wheelchair. Turning my home into a smart home has been a miracle. From my bed I can control my computer, TV, heat, air conditioning, lights, telephone and even my door.

Some of us do not have a choice.

I think it is great that this works for you.

I just don't think you should have to compromise your privacy in order to take advantage of these technologies.

That is my problem with the technology. Not the smart technology itself, but the strings that come attached to it, and those strings don't NEED to be there.

This is why we need regulation to prevent the collection of user data.

...and if silicon valley truly depends on it, then silicon valley will have to die.
 

Mchart

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That option just stops your device from actually connecting to an unsecured wifi network automatically. It does not disable your wifi at all. If your wifi is on, yes it can be identified and found, turning it off and if it is actually off is easy enough to test, just fire up Kali Linux with a supported wifi card and do an airmon-ng scan and see if your wifi devices MAC shows up
Most mobile devices now generate a random MAC for WiFi unless you specifically choose not to for a specific network.
 

OFaceSIG

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All the more reason to lock down your network as much as possible. I have no hot mics except my phone (can't get rid of that one). I have no alexas or google homes. I run all my TVs, chormecasts, etc on a firewalled off VLAN and dedicated SSID that cannot touch my primary network. My pfense and unifi gear sure as hell isn't spinning up unathorized SSIDs. I swear these companies know people are stupid and lazy and take advantage.
 

MrGuvernment

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Most mobile devices now generate a random MAC for WiFi unless you specifically choose not to for a specific network.
Which you can easily view the MAC address from your phone anyways so wont matter if it changes or not. And since when do mobile phones do random mac's out of the box?
 

UltraTaco

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Actually I've read phone companies do random ipaddresses to phones every once in a while.
 

JSHamlet234

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No doubt. The millennials and younger generations are lazy fuck and willingly happy to give up their freedoms for a little bit of convenience.

The majority of people I've spoken to say things like "Oh well, I don't care, my life's not that interesting / I have nothing to hide / nothing to see here anyway." Of course, that's not the point.
 

Mchart

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Which you can easily view the MAC address from your phone anyways so wont matter if it changes or not. And since when do mobile phones do random mac's out of the box?
Doesn’t work that way with iPhones. The real Mac is not broadcasted out.
 

LFaWolf

[H]ard|Gawd
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Hah, I know what you mean!

I just think it's funny that people genuinely believe Amazon and Google want a massive amount of garbage recordings in the off-chance they'll maybe, possibly, kinda catch you saying something they can use for ad targeting. It's like basing your income on lottery tickets... the chances of getting something useful just aren't worth the effort.

You have vastly underestimated the power of data and machine learning. Your "junk" data is actually great sample data to tune the models to learn about human conversation and behavior so that it can be trained to find things that are useful for what they want to know.
 

staknhalo

[H]ard|Gawd
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It's my data/bandwidth - no matter how little or how much - it's fucked up to help yourself or others to it without ACTIVELY asking me first - no matter how encrypted/secured it is

All you apologists want to gloss over this point 'oH bUt ItS sO lItTlE dAtA'

K, let me just use a little of your electricity and home computing power to mine me some bitcoin then - you basically won't be able to notice - same thing 👍
 
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Aurelius

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You have vastly underestimated the power of data and machine learning. Your "junk" data is actually great sample data to tune the models to learn about human conversation and behavior so that it can be trained to find things that are useful for what they want to know.
Is it, though? Voice assistants still struggle to understand you even when you're speaking directly to them — how the hell would they have the technology to pick up incidental conversations? And even then, you still wouldn't need to record everyone 24/7 to train the machine learning system. That and I fail to see how empty rooms and indecipherable murmurs from too-distant chats would really help the system.

This is what's frustrating about privacy issues! People cling to fantasies about things like always-on spying because they want them to be true, not because they have any evidence it's true. We don't get to talk about the meaningful privacy/security issues because folks are too busy convincing themselves that Amazon or Google wants to hear your discussion of whose turn it is to empty the dishwasher.
 

Shoganai

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Is it, though? Voice assistants still struggle to understand you even when you're speaking directly to them — how the hell would they have the technology to pick up incidental conversations? And even then, you still wouldn't need to record everyone 24/7 to train the machine learning system. That and I fail to see how empty rooms and indecipherable murmurs from too-distant chats would really help the system.

This is what's frustrating about privacy issues! People cling to fantasies about things like always-on spying because they want them to be true, not because they have any evidence it's true. We don't get to talk about the meaningful privacy/security issues because folks are too busy convincing themselves that Amazon or Google wants to hear your discussion of whose turn it is to empty the dishwasher.
I’m sorry, you’re deluded if you think they’re not recording everything. They’ve literally been caught doing this over and over again.
 

MrGuvernment

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Doesn’t work that way with iPhones. The real Mac is not broadcasted out.
I did not know that, checking my iPhone 11 you are right, the one under About is different than showing in my DHCP leases for the phone... sneaky.

But even with that you could still get the hostname to link to the MAC for airmon-ng to see if your wifi is truly shut off or not
 

MrGuvernment

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I’m sorry, you’re deluded if you think they’re not recording everything. They’ve literally been caught doing this over and over again.
Yup, they have. Seems people want to deny it cause their lives are not interesting enough "why would they want to listen to me 24/7", its not the point. IoT devices are a massive invasion of privacy and cause massive cyber security concerns.
 

LFaWolf

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Is it, though? Voice assistants still struggle to understand you even when you're speaking directly to them — how the hell would they have the technology to pick up incidental conversations? And even then, you still wouldn't need to record everyone 24/7 to train the machine learning system. That and I fail to see how empty rooms and indecipherable murmurs from too-distant chats would really help the system.

This is what's frustrating about privacy issues! People cling to fantasies about things like always-on spying because they want them to be true, not because they have any evidence it's true. We don't get to talk about the meaningful privacy/security issues because folks are too busy convincing themselves that Amazon or Google wants to hear your discussion of whose turn it is to empty the dishwasher.

Voice assistant and recording your conversation for machine learning are two very different things, although they are related and I will explain. Voice assistant is real-time, whereas processing your conversation/data for machine learning is offline. The data that have been recorded can be used for so many things, target marketing, improve user experience, and actually, voice assistant! If the model when being trained has a hard time "understanding" a certain phrase or recording, it can flag that sample. Then, a real human can listen in, and tune the model what the phrase actually is. This way, the model will improve or "learn" so that it will know that phrase and how it could sound like in the future. The model/algorithm can be used in the future to actually improve real-time voice assistants.

Voice assistant is one of the hardest things to do, because everyone has a different tone. pitch, and even accent. I remember at one point Google or Duo Lingo has a project asking people to read a paragraph a day so that it can use the reading to feed its machine to learn different people pronunciation/reading.
 

staknhalo

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I’m sorry, you’re deluded if you think they’re not recording everything. They’ve literally been caught doing this over and over again.

OMG dude it doesn't literally record everything it just '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''accidentally''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''" falsely triggers 4,000 times a day and they gladly keep and use that data that's picked up during these "''''""""""""""""""""""""""""""false"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" triggers - it's totally different! 🙄
 

Aurelius

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I’m sorry, you’re deluded if you think they’re not recording everything. They’ve literally been caught doing this over and over again.
Please provide evidence, then. No excuses, no waffling. I want your next post to include hard data showing that at least one smart speaker platform is genuinely recording non-stop, on purpose.

Something tells me you won't have any evidence, though. It'd be ridiculously easy to prove if it was actually happening: you'd see data traffic consistent with a continuous audio feed, ports in use that aren't necessary for a passive connection, that sort of thing. For that matter, police who've requested recordings from Echo speakers have so far been disappointed because — shock — Amazon isn't actually capturing everything that happened.

And where have they been caught recording everything? The only stories I've seen have involved quality review teams listening to unintended recordings (i.e the speaker mistook something for the wake word). That's not the same as continuous recording, and the reviews include a handful of anonymized info that would be useless for ad targeting.

Again, this is what frustrates me — there's no real evidence to support claims like these, but people stick to them because it's easier to rage against the fantasy than be moderately concerned by the reality. Yeah, it's important to know what Amazon and Google do with recordings, but let's stick to claims we can back up with data, shall we?
 

Shoganai

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Please provide evidence, then. No excuses, no waffling. I want your next post to include hard data showing that at least one smart speaker platform is genuinely recording non-stop, on purpose.

Something tells me you won't have any evidence, though. It'd be ridiculously easy to prove if it was actually happening: you'd see data traffic consistent with a continuous audio feed, ports in use that aren't necessary for a passive connection, that sort of thing. For that matter, police who've requested recordings from Echo speakers have so far been disappointed because — shock — Amazon isn't actually capturing everything that happened.

And where have they been caught recording everything? The only stories I've seen have involved quality review teams listening to unintended recordings (i.e the speaker mistook something for the wake word). That's not the same as continuous recording, and the reviews include a handful of anonymized info that would be useless for ad targeting.

Again, this is what frustrates me — there's no real evidence to support claims like these, but people stick to them because it's easier to rage against the fantasy than be moderately concerned by the reality. Yeah, it's important to know what Amazon and Google do with recordings, but let's stick to claims we can back up with data, shall we?
The Misses used to work for Google, and they listened to literally everything, including phone calls. She couldn't work there anymore for ethical reasons. If you want to live in your deluded bubble, be my guest, but that's on you. And just humor me and look up "xkeyscore" if you're bored. Look up "14 eyes" while you're at it as well.
 

LFaWolf

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Please provide evidence, then. No excuses, no waffling. I want your next post to include hard data showing that at least one smart speaker platform is genuinely recording non-stop, on purpose.

Something tells me you won't have any evidence, though. It'd be ridiculously easy to prove if it was actually happening: you'd see data traffic consistent with a continuous audio feed, ports in use that aren't necessary for a passive connection, that sort of thing. For that matter, police who've requested recordings from Echo speakers have so far been disappointed because — shock — Amazon isn't actually capturing everything that happened.

And where have they been caught recording everything? The only stories I've seen have involved quality review teams listening to unintended recordings (i.e the speaker mistook something for the wake word). That's not the same as continuous recording, and the reviews include a handful of anonymized info that would be useless for ad targeting.

Again, this is what frustrates me — there's no real evidence to support claims like these, but people stick to them because it's easier to rage against the fantasy than be moderately concerned by the reality. Yeah, it's important to know what Amazon and Google do with recordings, but let's stick to claims we can back up with data, shall we?

https://time.com/5568815/amazon-workers-listen-to-alexa/

https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-hom...-to-your-voice-recordings-heres-what-we-know/
 

UltraTaco

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Well, let's do something. We are an international group of technologically advanced individuals. Our voices hold certain weight in these tech driven times. Why dont we start some sort of petition? Call our congressmen?

I consider ourselves the tip of the sword!
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I just assumed I haven't had privacy since 2004 or so.

In the beginning you could opt out.

It has gotten increasingly difficult to opt out, and it's starting to get to the point where it is not possible to opt out unless you want to live in a pre-electricity world.

All sorts of products on the market now have connectivity enabled b y default, many of them (like cars) cannot be disabled, and they send god knows what data to the mothership.

It's about time we get draconian regulation in place that ends the era of data collection, damn the consequences to the businesses who rely on it or the economy as a whole. It is that important.

Either fix it, or burn it all down.

 
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DukenukemX

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I'm glad I dumped Ring for Eufy. Not only I don't pay a fee to Ring but nobody is using my internet to torrent.
 

staknhalo

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Really the only thing you can do today is choose what eggs to put your basket in (so to speak, just what you want to go all in on really) - even if you 'use' none of these services etc - they all still scour, buy and cross reference all sorts of data without and with their own data - public land records, voting records, credit card financial transactions - boom, user #8065492 is actually John Smith of Oakland Gardens, NY - SpongeBobWriteThatDownMeme.jpg
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I'm glad I dumped Ring for Eufy. Not only I don't pay a fee to Ring but nobody is using my internet to torrent.

You are just swapping plague for cholera.

100% of these devices are a problem.

The only possible exception are those designed for offline enterprise use.

As far as camera products go, I might trust Unifi Video, but only the self hosted local version, as their cloud based services have been repeatedly compromized.
 

Aurelius

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That's only the evidence of staff listing to a handful of clips from those recorded, as I mentioned earlier. It does not represent evidence of non-stop recording, which is what I asked for. Not that I expect you to find any.

This reinforces my case — people don't understand how the technology works, and they find it easier to rail against their fantasy ("omg Amazon/Google is spying on everything, all the time") than the more nuanced truth.
 

Aurelius

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The Misses used to work for Google, and they listened to literally everything, including phone calls. She couldn't work there anymore for ethical reasons. If you want to live in your deluded bubble, be my guest, but that's on you. And just humor me and look up "xkeyscore" if you're bored. Look up "14 eyes" while you're at it as well.
None of those are evidence Amazon and Google devices are recording around the clock. They just indicate 1. that Googlers listen to lots of things (not that they have 24/7 recording); 2. that the US government has wide-reaching access to the data that does exist; 3. that surveillance data is shared between a host of countries. I'm well aware of XKEYSCORE and the various levels of "eyes" intelligence sharing, but that's not what we're talking about.

Let me reiterate my request more explicitly, since reading comprehension is clearly a problem for you: present evidence that Alexa or Google Assistant is recording everything non-stop. You will not provide vague claims about listening to "everything" based on anecdotes you can't possibly support (not without getting your partner in trouble, at least); you will not divert to tangential subjects like government surveillance. You will provide tangible, specific evidence of what I asked. Understood?

You see the problem? You're arguing based on half-truths, on unsupported extrapolations rather than directly relevant evidence. Yes, Amazon, Google and the NSA are more intrusive than they should be, but that doesn't mean that the worst you can imagine is automatically true. There's so far no evidence to indicate that Amazon and Google are literally recording everything within earshot, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest their recording is actually quite limited (even though it does have problems).
 
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