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5870 - $299

Raap said:
The price is certainly high, but this does raise my expectations for the performance of the new cards.
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well of course they are supposed to be faster but that should not make a large impact on the pricing structure. if a card that is only half as fast as the flagship went up 100 bucks every gen then things would be out of control. I dont see too people paying 800 bucks just to crossfire 5870 cards for a 40-50% improvement over of a 4890 crossfire which costs half the price. also asking $399 for a card like this is only going to make more people wait and see what Nvidia has in a couple months.
 
IMO Ati will price 5870 it higher at launch and reduce the price when Nvidia release the GT300 they will try to profit as much as possible.
 
cannondale06 said:
well of course they are supposed to be faster but that should not make a large impact on the pricing structure. if a card that is only half as fast as the flagship went up 100 bucks every gen then things would be out of control. I dont see too people paying 800 bucks just to crossfire 5870 cards for a 40-50% improvement over of a 4890 crossfire which costs half the price. also asking $399 for a card like this is only going to make more people wait and see what Nvidia has in a couple months.
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You assume that the 4890 is "priced right". History shows that a 400$ is actually low for a top of the line single GPU card.
 
psyside said:
IMO Ati will price 5870 it higher at launch and reduce the price when Nvidia release the GT300 they will try to profit as much as possible.
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I somewhat agree but I think they'll do what they did with the 4890 and use MIRs to keep it around the 300 mark.
 
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/09/03/and-cypress-shader-count/

^^ Says Cypress will be 1600 shaders and Juniper 800.

Since Juniper is very small, 181 mm^2, with 800 shaders it should perform similar to 4870-4890, plus with DX11, at a dirt cheap price. Wow, Nividia could be in some trouble.

The Cypress shader count is pretty impressive too, 2X 48XX series. So depending on clocks and other parts of the chip, 1.5-2X as fast probably.
 
vengence said:
You assume that the 4890 is "priced right". History shows that a 400$ is actually low for a top of the line single GPU card.
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what history? thats not how ATI is doing things. this card is ONLY half as fast as there flagship card so $399 is pretty ridiculous. just look at how they have been doing things lately with cards like $109 4770 and $79 4670 and so on. IMO $399 for a 5870 would be really out of line.
 
Just for kicks and to get you excited, I looked at some recent Firing Squad benchmarks, and simply multiplied the 4870 FPS X1.6 (the rumor of how much faster 5870 will be). Look at these mouthwatering numbers if it holds true (compared to GTX285)



Arma II: 5870: (59) 285: (37)
RE5 Benchmark: 5870: (133.4) 285: (93.9)
Fallout 3: 5870: (92.2) 285: (59)
Far Cry 2 : 5870: (63.8) 285: (49.6)
Crysis: 5870: (58.9) 285: (41.8)
L4D: 5870 (101.4) 285: (70.3)
Stalker CS: 5870 (45.1) 285: (35.9)

In many cases it looks like 5870 would be ~50% faster than GTX285. Of course thats assuming the 1.6X rumor etc has any validity, and assuming the scaling is perfect across each game etc.
 
Just riffing some more off my fake benchmarks, if we look at pricing, with GTX285 currently running what, $330-$350? The 5870 could probably easily support the 399 price point.

Further, with still 1600 shaders but lowered clocks, we can assume the 5850 will be 20 or 30% slower than 5870. This will still make it 20+% faster than a 285, with DX11 to boot, all for 299.

Nvidia will have to drop the 285 to $250 maximum for it to remain viable. Even then without DX 11 it will be a tough sell. Juniper might approach it in performance, with DX11 at a lower price too, squeezing it from the bottom.
 
phide said:
And yours is completely trollish.
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so you quote one part out of my entire comment and call me a troll? grow up. how about debating what I said in the rest of my post that explained why I thought your comment was illogical?
 
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Mr. K6 said:
The GTX295 launched at $500 while the GTX 285 was launched at the same time at an MSRP of $400. The GTX 295 is MUCH faster than a GTX285 - however, being the fastest single GPU graphics card carries a price premium (that seemingly many are willing to pay). The ball is in AMD's court right now, they can decide what they want to do with it. If they charge $300, they could move a ton of units and really dig into market share. They could also do this in the hope to grab more market share since they're first out the door - not many people who buy a 5870 are going to consider buying the GT300 part 3 months later (therefore killing NVIDIA's sales). However, this might not be as profitable as AMD wants (or needs). They could sell at $400 and will still probably make some decent sales (I'm almost guaranteed to get one still), as well as a higher profit. This could also help out if supply issues weren't solved as completely as it would seem. They then could drop the price of the 5870 a few months later when the 5870X2 debuts (and, if necessary, supply increases), further helping their sales and hurting NVIDIA's. These are just some scenarios to ponder, but like I said, the ball's in AMD's court this time.
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but everybody knows the 5870x2 is coming two months later and will be the top of the line card. $399 for what is essentially half of their flagship card seems out of line. the gtx295 was only launched to get the performance crown back from ATI. the gtx280 would have never been as as expensive if the gtx295 was going to be released around the same time.
 
cannondale06 said:
but everybody knows the 5870x2 is coming two months later and will be the top of the line card. $399 for what is essentially half of their flagship card seems out of line. the gtx295 was only launched to get the performance crown back from ATI. the gtx280 would have never been as as expensive if the gtx295 was going to be released around the same time.
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Huh? The GTX285 and GTX 295 were released at the same time.
 
Mr. K6 said:
Huh? The GTX285 and GTX 295 were released at the same time.
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I was referring to how expensive the gtx280 was at launch. it would have been much cheaper if a full bore dual gpu card was being released at the same time. yeah the gtx285 was only 100 bucks cheaper than the gtx295 but it also had faster more expensive memory, larger memory bus, and faster clocks. ATIs top of the line x2 card is exactly two of the same gpus right below it. if the gtx295 was actually two gtx285 gpus then it would have been even more expensive or either the gtx285 would have had to been cheaper.
 
cannondale06 said:
but everybody knows the 5870x2 is coming two months later and will be the top of the line card. $399 for what is essentially half of their flagship card seems out of line. the gtx295 was only launched to get the performance crown back from ATI. the gtx280 would have never been as as expensive if the gtx295 was going to be released around the same time.
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Well, A quick comparison, is that the 9700 Pro launched for 399 also, and I don't remember many people calling it a rip off at the time.

The x2 part will be faster, but will also use a bit more power, and have more headaches from crossfire, unless they drastically change how they are handling it.

I remember reading at some point that ati will also introduce a new filtering mode, that is higher quality than AF with this generation, probably will end up using the shaders, like edge detect AA does.
 
kioras said:
Well, A quick comparison, is that the 9700 Pro launched for 399 also, and I don't remember many people calling it a rip off at the time.

The x2 part will be faster, but will also use a bit more power, and have more headaches from crossfire, unless they drastically change how they are handling it.

I remember reading at some point that ati will also introduce a new filtering mode, that is higher quality than AF with this generation, probably will end up using the shaders, like edge detect AA does.
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well was a 9700x2 coming out a few weeks later?? no. the 5870 is HALF of their flagship so $399 seems out of line.
 
Shark974 said:
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/09/03/and-cypress-shader-count/

^^ Says Cypress will be 1600 shaders and Juniper 800.

Since Juniper is very small, 181 mm^2, with 800 shaders it should perform similar to 4870-4890, plus with DX11, at a dirt cheap price. Wow, Nividia could be in some trouble.

The Cypress shader count is pretty impressive too, 2X 48XX series. So depending on clocks and other parts of the chip, 1.5-2X as fast probably.
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Yeah but notice the title of that site is 'semi-accurate'. LOL.
However if the 5870 indeed ships with 1600 shaders, that is gonna cause a RUCKUS! Holy cow. I'm already planning to buy a 5870 @ $299. But if it has 1600 shaders instead of 1200, I might just buy 2. :)

I think that Juniper WILL have a lower shader count than Cypress.
Too many people overclock, and ATI even allows overclocking straight up in their software.
So nobody would buy a Cypress at $299 if they could OC a Juniper to 90% that for $199.
I'm thinking Juniper will have 75% the shaders that Cypress has. That seems fair for the different price points.
 
vjcsmoke said:
However if the 5870 indeed ships with 1600 shaders, that is gonna cause a RUCKUS! Holy cow. I'm already planning to buy a 5870 @ $299. But if it has 1600 shaders instead of 1200, I might just buy 2. :)
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I thought it works the other way around... you were planning to buy two, but since 5870 is so much faster than you thought, you now need only one to get the FPS you need :cool:
 
cannondale06 said:
grow up.
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Fascinating. I'm the guy who voiced his clearly-stated opinion and thoughts about the card's pricing (re-read my post and pay careful attention to its wording). You're the guy who trolled me. Let's keep that in mind going forward (and perhaps calm down a little).

cannondale06 said:
how about debating what I said in the rest of my post that explained why I thought your comment was illogical?
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There's more to an object's market price than its performance, cannon. Just because it seems "illogical" to you that the 5870 might be $399 doesn't mean it won't be $399. RV870 is a large billion+ transistor chip (what are the rumors now -- 1.6B?), and those aren't exactly inexpensive to manufacture. Not only that, but there will be appreciable demand for the 5870, and with NVIDIA's next generation months away, AMD would be wise to place a premium price on their new top dog part.

In the real world, a card's performance is not the sole determinator of how it's positioned in the market. You don't pay for frame rates: you pay for silicon, manufacturing costs, drivers, post-sales support, warranties, R&D costs and marketing.
 
chklin said:
I thought it works the other way around... you were planning to buy two, but since 5870 is so much faster than you thought, you now need only one to get the FPS you need :cool:
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Hehe, that's one way to think of it.
My original plan was, buy 1x 5870.
Then if I like it, wait for the 5870x2 to come out then buy my second 5870 at a lower price and crossfire them.

OR, if I have the cash at the time, buy a 5870x2 and go Tri-Crossfire.

OR down the road after I've got my 5870's crossfired, add a 5870x2 and do Quad-Crossfire with 3 cards.
 
phide said:
Fascinating. I'm the guy who voiced his clearly-stated opinion and thoughts about the card's pricing (re-read my post and pay careful attention to its wording). You're the guy who trolled me. Let's keep that in mind going forward (and perhaps calm down a little).


There's more to an object's market price than its performance, cannon. Just because it seems "illogical" to you that the 5870 might be $399 doesn't mean it won't be $399. RV870 is a large billion+ transistor chip (what are the rumors now -- 1.6B?), and those aren't exactly inexpensive to manufacture. Not only that, but there will be appreciable demand for the 5870, and with NVIDIA's next generation months away, AMD would be wise to place a premium price on their new top dog part.

In the real world, a card's performance is not the sole determinator of how it's positioned in the market. You don't pay for frame rates: you pay for silicon, manufacturing costs, drivers, post-sales support, warranties, R&D costs and marketing.
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again I am looking at how they have been doing pricing lately and $399 for the 5870 just doesnt seem very logical to me. you have your opinion and I have mine so fair enough. I guess we will see in a couple weeks.
 
vjcsmoke said:
Hehe, that's one way to think of it.
My original plan was, buy 1x 5870.
Then if I like it, wait for the 5870x2 to come out then buy my second 5870 at a lower price and crossfire them.

OR, if I have the cash at the time, buy a 5870x2 and go Tri-Crossfire.

OR down the road after I've got my 5870's crossfired, add a 5870x2 and do Quad-Crossfire with 3 cards.
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you better have one hell of a cpu to run 2 or 3 5870 cards not to mention 4 of them.
 
DASHlT said:
Man you just love pooping on people who want to xfire 5870's

Remember this is [H]ardocp. Home of the hardcore gamers.
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how is that pooping on anyone? and the same applies to next gen nvidia or even running current high end cards in tri sli and quadfire too. hardcore gamers need decent cpus too you know. stop trying to make an issue where there isnt one.
 
cannondale06 said:
how is that pooping on anyone? and the same applies to next gen nvidia or even running current high end cards in tri sli and quadfire too. hardcore gamers need decent cpus too you know. stop trying to make an issue where there isnt one.
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The only issue is you letting people know how stupid/retard/dumb it is to get 5870's for crossfire.

Who the fuck cares what people buy when it gets released. Let people buy them.
 
He's right you will want a hell of a CPU for this. I absolutely agree. At this level of performance CPU bottlenecking is going to become an issue for people with Conroe generation chips. I see it already with my GTX275. It isn't so much that it caps your frame rates, but it is just a stuttering and hitching that isn't always obvious but it is there. Not in all games, but some of the better ones. (Team Fortress 2?)
 
DASHlT said:
The only issue is you letting people know how stupid/retard/dumb it is to get 5870's for crossfire.

Who the fuck cares what people buy when it gets released. Let people buy them.
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are you so blind that you are missing the ENTIRE point? stop trying to make this an ATI thing. I am simply saying that the next gen of all cards are looking to be quite powerful so you will certainly need a very good cpu to fully utilize them. this thread just happens to be about 5870s and I will say the same thing when we have a gtx360/380 thread.
 
Blackstone said:
He's right you will want a hell of a CPU for this. I absolutely agree. At this level of performance CPU bottlenecking is going to become an issue for people with Conroe generation chips. I see it already with my GTX275. It isn't so much that it caps your frame rates, but it is just a stuttering and hitching that isn't always obvious but it is there. Not in all games, but some of the better ones. (Team Fortress 2?)
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thank you. just looking at how current very high sli and crossfire setups are needing good cpus certainly shows we will be needing some beefy cpus. a single 5870 or gtx360 likely wont be too much of an issue but running 2 of either of those cards will certainly require an overclocked i7 or so to fully push them.
 
cannondale06 said:
are you so blind that you are missing the ENTIRE point? stop trying to make this an ATI thing. I am simply saying that the next gen of all cards are looking to be quite powerful so you will certainly need a very good cpu to fully utilize them. this thread just happens to be about 5870s and I will say the same thing when we have a gtx360/380 thread.
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Who cares though?...if its ATI or Nvidia, you are the only one thats keep shittin on people who want to xfire or SLI.

If the CPU is the bottleneck so be it. Let them buy it and be happy :p Some people just dont give a fuck if they are bottlenecked.
 
DASHlT said:
Who cares though?...if its ATI or Nvidia, you are the only one thats keep shittin on people who want to xfire or SLI.

If the CPU is the bottleneck so be it. Let them buy it and be happy :p Some people just dont give a fuck if they are bottlenecked.
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What is it with you guys. Looking at your sigs you don't need to upgrade for a very long time :p
 
DASHlT said:
Who cares though?...if its ATI or Nvidia, you are the only one thats keep shittin on people who want to xfire or SLI.

If the CPU is the bottleneck so be it. Let them buy it and be happy :p Some people just dont give a fuck if they are bottlenecked.
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I am NOT shitting on anyone. this a forum where I am free to give advice and suggestions just like you are. I have not said anything rude or out of line and you are clearly the one acting rude for no reason.
 
cannondale06 said:
I am NOT shitting on anyone. this a forum where I am free to give advice and suggestions just like you are. I have not said anything rude or out of line. you are clearly the one acting like a nut job for no reason.
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See everyone single time i have seen when someone says "im getting 2 for crossfire" etc etc, YOU are always the one to say "well you need a better CPU just to run them so whats the point"

My question is, why do you like to point that out to everyone who wants to get two? Just to show people that you know that they will bottleneck the system?
 
I made a graph out of my projected HD 5870 performance assuming 5870=1.6X 4870.

Ladies and Gents, I present the worlds first 5870 review :p

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8083/20090904064500.jpg

Yeah it's kinda hard to read, never done this before and just used some online graph maker thing.

Edit: Guess I cant post images. Oh well have to click the link.

For the 5850 I assumed it will be clocked at 83% of 5870, since 4850 was clocked at 83% of 4870.

The 5850 might be the more interesting card, if the 399/299 price is true. Compared to 285, it looks great, as it will be faster, cheaper, and DX11. However the real competition might be from the $200 4890..

Of course if it turns out the 5870 is 299, then all bets are off.
 
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You can NEVER have too much power. There is always some aspect of gaming performance that is bottlenecking somewhere. There is 60fps with occasional dips into the 40s and then there is real wide open performance like you get when you run an old game like Quake 3. I'm not saying it is worth spending to get to that next level. That is a personal decision. But for the sake of [H]ardness I think it is good to be aware of it.
 
DASHlT said:
See everyone single time i have seen when someone says "im getting 2 for crossfire" etc etc, YOU are always the one to say "well you need a better CPU just to run them so whats the point"

My question is, why do you like to point that out to everyone who wants to get two? Just to show people that you know that they will bottleneck the system?
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again because this is a forum. the bigger question is why do you care since nothing I am saying is offensive to you or anyone else? a lot of people go out and buy killer gpu setups without even looking at their cpu. its just a suggestion to review your current rig before getting way more gpu than you can even utilize.
 
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