Win 10 Poll Kept it Or Ditched it

SuperSubZero said:

Not at all.

The perceptions are:

- Microsoft is collecting "telemetry" which is their fancy buzzword for MY PERSONAL DATA.

- Microsoft isn't telling us what they are collecting, therefore it must be nefarious.

However, Microsoft has in fact been pretty open about what they collect:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/online-services

https://technet.microsoft.com/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/


It's not exactly secret. Yes it's typical Microsoft legalese that doesn't make much sense, but there it is.

This heads right into the next argument: MS are in fact a bunch of liars, they aren't telling the truth, and they are collecting far more information (MY PERSONAL DATA) then they are letting on, without any mechanism to disable it (since there should be an easy way to tell MS to stop secretly collecting data they don't want me to know they are collecting).

There's no link that would satisfy this argument, since these people are by their very position unchangeable. They believe what they believe, and that's it.

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There are two dozen privacy settings in Windows 10, some of which CLEARLY point out they are collecting personal data for the purpose of driving something, Cortana, improving handwriting recognition, etc. The telemetry settings point out at least some of the details of what they are capturing. The description of these settings again CLEARLY state that beyond the basic level, personal data may seep through in crash reporting.

In any case this has become much more a discussion about hating on Windows and calling everything Microsoft says is a lie to scare people from using Windows 10 than one that's truly about security and privacy. And that's simply because there's countless other things out there that are doing the same things and the idea that phones don't contain tons of personal and sensitive data is preposterous.

People flipping out over Windows 10 are way past too late on this issue. An option to turn off basic telemetry in Windows 10 is would be as effective protecting the average person's privacy as pissing on a burning house.

It amazes me that ordinary people will defend the questionable actions of a corporation that is completely in bed with advertisers and intelligence agencies and cares nothing for your privacy.

Monkey God said:

It amazes me that ordinary people will defend the questionable actions of a corporation that is completely in bed with advertisers and intelligence agencies and cares nothing for your privacy.

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Ordinary people:
1- Don't have much to hide
2- Don't have much understanding of what Big Data is
3- Aren't very smart
4- Don't care about non-tangible threats from companies/agencies they've never directly dealt with
5- Enjoy the benefits of sharing that data.

So, why would they do anything different?

heatlesssun said:

People flipping out over Windows 10 are way past too late on this issue. An option to turn off basic telemetry in Windows 10 is would be as effective protecting the average person's privacy as pissing on a burning house.

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This.
For people who have been spreading their data through the internet for years like Genghis Khan spread offspring, the "djin is out of the bottle."

Modred189 said:

For people who have been spreading their data through the internet for years like Genghis Khan spread offspring, the "djin is out of the bottle."

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You post *EVERYTHING* you type on your PC on the internet? You post everything you do? All your tax info, your bank info? Every email? Your homoerotic chats with your gay lover? All of it? NO? Because they are not the same.

Comparing the random shit people say on facebook with *everything* they do on their PC is ridiculous.

Monkey God said:

You post *EVERYTHING* you type on your PC on the internet? You post everything you do? All your tax info, your bank info? Every email? Your homoerotic chats with your gay lover? All of it? NO? Because they are not the same.

Comparing the random shit people say on facebook with *everything* they do on their PC is ridiculous.

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MS isn't collecting your tax data (it's either in software on your computer, or encrypted over the internet), same with bank info. UNLESS for some reason you are storing your tax and bank data in readable format in a word document on your computer. But who does that?

That said, chats with someone are inherently online and EVERY chat app collects data from that.

Monkey God said:

You post *EVERYTHING* you type on your PC on the internet? You post everything you do? All your tax info, your bank info? Every email? Your homoerotic chats with your gay lover? All of it? NO? Because they are not the same.

Comparing the random shit people say on facebook with *everything* they do on their PC is ridiculous.

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You do realize that emails, bank info and tax info are available through the internet? And these things get hacked all of the time. That's why I grow more and more dubious about people freaking out about one setting that according to Microsoft collects no data like this at all yet all of it is there and had been there for a long time for anyone to take, be it a hacker or government.

Modred189 said:

MS isn't collecting your tax data (it's either in software on your computer, or encrypted over the internet), same with bank info. UNLESS for some reason you are storing your tax and bank data in readable format in a word document on your computer. But who does that?

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My historical tax data is a series of readable PDF documents generated by the software I use. They have selectable text. A computer can read these documents.

heatlesssun said:

You do realize that emails, bank info and tax info are available through the internet? And these things get hacked all of the time. That's why I grow more and more dubious about people freaking out about one setting that according to Microsoft collects no data like this at all yet all of it is there and had been there for a long time for anyone to take, be it a hacker or government.

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Ahhh - the give up mentality. Its already out there maybe so why bother with privacy at all?

Peoples houses get broke into all the time, why bother with locking the doors or putting your shit in a safe, amirite?

Monkey God said:

Ahhh - the give up mentality. Its already out there maybe so why bother with privacy at all?

Peoples houses get broke into all the time, why bother with locking the doors or putting your shit in a safe, amirite?

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The type of data that you described isn't collected by Microsoft in Windows 10 with all privacy settings off which means the data isn't collected and basic telemetry on according to their documentation.

heatlesssun said:

The type of data that you described isn't collected by Microsoft in Windows 10 with all privacy settings off which means the data isn't collected and basic telemetry on according to their documentation.

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...in your opinion. You forgot that part. Because they haven't actually documented or disclosed what specifically is being collected..

odditory said:

...in your opinion. You forgot that part. Because they haven't actually documented or disclosed what specifically is being collected..

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It's not opinion. It's what Microsoft has said on the subject. No personal nor personally identifiable information is sent to them with all privacy settings off and telemetry on basic. If they are lying then they are lying. But again, it's not opinion.

heatlesssun said:

It's not opinion. It's what Microsoft has said on the subject. No personal nor personally identifiable information is sent to them with all privacy settings off and telemetry on basic. If they are lying then they are lying. But again, it's not opinion.

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I would assume Microsoft is telling the truth.

From what I have seen from what Microsoft has made public, one could drive a truck through the gaps in their statements, documentation, and EULA. Their statements all depend on definition of terms.

Others on this forum have said Microsoft won't even talk with specificity to partners, even under NDA, so it is truly hard to say. In my opinion, you're correct but so is odditory. Microsoft has said they are anonymizing what is sent and no personally identifiable information is being sent. However, Microsoft is not being specific in documenting what they're doing and are not sharing (disclosing) what information is being sent. What is being shared with partners and how much information needs to be correlated before it can be individualized? Social engineering schemes have shown little bits of information can be correlated to uniquely identify a person.

You've said this before, probably a plurality if not majority of Windows users (10 or otherwise) do not care. Some like it (telemetry and exchanging personal information for services), some dislike it, and some are on the far extremes ("Micro$haft can haz ur filez" or "Microsoft cannot provide you with Windows otherwise, you tin foil hat wearing conspiricist kook"). Microsoft shouldn't have to address every kook that comes out from the wood-works with a crazy theory about what Microsoft is doing. This would make Microsoft look suspicious and give the person making the claim credibility. Microsoft is on the other side of the spectrum though. Microsoft is not answering the media or answering valid concerns, so the few that are listening are getting their information from sources other than Microsoft and are acting upon it. This leads to a situation where a portion of Windows users are making themselves more vulnerable because of Microsoft's actions or inaction. People are going to third parties to "secure" or "protect their privacy" under Windows. They are running cmd or bat files, or worse, third party executables. Not a good idea.

Benjamin Franklin said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." There is an argument to be made against giving up permanent information about yourself for the benefit of a temporary service for expediency (or laziness). The movement has been for more transparency in what data is being collected and what it is being used for. This has been discussed by people like Michael Fries, Marissa Mayer, Marc Benioff, Tim Berners-Lee, to name a few. This is an area Microsoft is only paying lip service to and is woefully behind. “You need to have transparency but you also need to afford the individual choice and control.”

So if heatlesssun will just PM everyone with his bank information, I am sure we can all agree we will make his life considerably better than Windows 10 ever could. We promise.

ccman said:

So if heatlesssun will just PM everyone with his bank information, I am sure we can all agree we will make his life considerably better than Windows 10 ever could. We promise.

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Since I'm using Windows 10 by what's been said by many around here that shouldn't even be necessary. In any case there should soon be many horror stories about privacy leaks as a direct result of using Windows 10 if these folks are correct.

heatlesssun said:

Since I'm using Windows 10 by what's been said by many around here that shouldn't even be necessary. In any case there should soon be many horror stories about privacy leaks as a direct result of using Windows 10 if these folks are correct.

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The part you were responding to was just a joke.

I know.

Alright... Good talk...

My preview version stopped working, so I installed a fresh ISO from MS. It's just a VM for testing my apps, under a Linux host. Is w10 really free? It says "unregistered".

Do people really use this OS? I've been using windows for 20 years and I can't get anything done in w10, I'm like a clueless newbie, control panel, system settings, wtf?

reb00tin said:

My preview version stopped working, so I installed a fresh ISO from MS. It's just a VM for testing my apps, under a Linux host. Is w10 really free? It says "unregistered".

Do people really use this OS? I've been using windows for 20 years and I can't get anything done in w10, I'm like a clueless newbie, control panel, system settings, wtf?

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No, it's not free. It's a free upgrade from previous windows until early next year.
WHat are you having trouble with? If you never used Vista, 7 or 8 I can see the confusion: open the start menu and start typing what you are looking for. It will pop up.

Sticking with Windows 7 until I have a reason to install it. I've been running 10 in a VM just so I can keep up to speed with it.

Modred189 said:

No, it's not free. It's a free upgrade from previous windows until early next year.
WHat are you having trouble with? If you never used Vista, 7 or 8 I can see the confusion: open the start menu and start typing what you are looking for. It will pop up.

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Thank you. I have ALL version of windows in VMs for compatibility testing. When I type in start menu and it does a web search!

I thought my w7 might auto-update, but it hasn't.

reb00tin said:

Thank you. I have ALL version of windows in VMs for compatibility testing. When I type in start menu and it does a web search!

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If you've turned off certain features (some privacy features included), it will break the start menu search of apps and documents and everything local, leaving only the web search portion.
I, for one, have loved Win10 on my devices so far, and have had no major issues. My wife's computer sucks with it, but I think that's an issue with the computer, not the OS. My HTPC, Yoga 2 Pro, main desktop rig, home laptop, Surface 3 and home server are all running 10, and have had 0 major issues. (I say major because some companies lagged behind on drivers for some reason: Creative (sound cards on main rig and HTPC) and Synaptics (track pads on my laptops)).

I have a Windows 10 partition on my Mac, that I recently put in via boot camp just to replay through the Mass Effect Trilogy. The only time I'm in Windows is to play games that never got ported over (actually really annoyed by this one, ME should've had an OSX port). Obviously I'm not a major gamer, so even doing that is rare. I do play quite a few Blizzard games though (which all have OSX ports), as well as a few things from Steam.

After I found out about all the invasive privacy features, I will be "downgrading" back to Windows 7. There is zero reason for this nonsense. DX12 won't even matter probably for another 2 years and if Windows figures out within that time how to make software that doesn't have unbreakable spying, maybe I'll consider moving back over.

So, the tl;dr is: Doing 10 literally at this moment, but plan to go back to 7.

UnknownSouljer said:

I have a Windows 10 partition on my Mac, that I recently put in via boot camp just to replay through the Mass Effect Trilogy. The only time I'm in Windows is to play games that never got ported over (actually really annoyed by this one, ME should've had an OSX port). Obviously I'm not a major gamer, so even doing that is rare. I do play quite a few Blizzard games though (which all have OSX ports), as well as a few things from Steam.

After I found out about all the invasive privacy features, I will be "downgrading" back to Windows 7. There is zero reason for this nonsense. DX12 won't even matter probably for another 2 years and if Windows figures out within that time how to make software that doesn't have unbreakable spying, maybe I'll consider moving back over.

So, the tl;dr is: Doing 10 literally at this moment, but plan to go back to 7.

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Mass Effects work great in Parallels.

I finally received w10 update notification in w7-pro. However it says "this PC is unable to run w10...", because "VirtualBox graphics adapter is not yet compatible... but we (MS) is working with their partners on that." lol

I made screenshots but this forum doesn't upload pics afaik.

I went back to 7 this past weekend. After the latest update reset some of my privacy settings, Windows 10 and MS can shove it.

All this hate on 10 is like 8.
MS KNOWS what you want! In more ways then one....

I have been running 8.1 with classic shell and so far its ok. 7 is still better but this works.
I just want an OS like 7 with new features like DX12 and such. Metro or whatever app crap can stay on mobile systems.
I guess if we are given a choice it will somehow cause the world to end or something...

It would spoil MSs attempt at becoming Apple.

Hagrid said:

I guess if we are given a choice it will somehow cause the world to end or something...

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You mean like how you can use Win10 without ever touching a "metro" (or "modern") app if you so choose?

Modred189 said:

You mean like how you can use Win10 without ever touching a "metro" (or "modern") app if you so choose?

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Or how about a 1-click button to turn on all privacy selections and shut off all telemetry?

Greggy_D said:

Or how about a 1-click button to turn on all privacy selections and shut off all telemetry?

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Because the cost in customer frustration of such a button is not worth appeasing the vocal super-minority. The average consumer might hit that and disable all kinds of things, and be left wading through windows telling them that X-feature has been disabled etc. And if you think Windows 7, that you apparently switched back to, isn't doing similar or identical data collection, you are mistaken.

Modred189 said:

And if you think Windows 7, that you apparently switched back to, isn't doing similar or identical data collection, you are mistaken.

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Citation please.

I always see this mentioned (even being claimed back all the way to XP), yet I haven't seen any proof that it's there. AFAIK if you don't install the telemetry updates and you don't turn on CEIP, the OS does not phone home and spy on you. The same cannot be said for 10, however.

I don't understand why so many egos are wrapped up in other people having criticism (or accepting) Windows 10.

Is the perception that everyone who criticizes Windows 10 is either a Mac fanboy, a Linux fanboy, or has never actually used Windows 10 and doesn't know what they're talking about? Why would someone who has never used Windows 10 spend time complaining about it? If it really is that they/we do not know what they/we are talking about, is it not better to inform in a kind tone? Someone may think they have a legitimate complaint, be told how to address it nicely, and be turned around. Being told you don't know what you're freaking talking about isn't going to win anyone over.

Besides, it was Bill Gates (who built Microsoft from nothing) who said "your unhappy customer are your greatest source of learning."

zero2dash said:

Citation please.

I always see this mentioned (even being claimed back all the way to XP), yet I haven't seen any proof that it's there. AFAIK if you don't install the telemetry updates and you don't turn on CEIP, the OS does not phone home and spy on you. The same cannot be said for 10, however.

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The story was all over. After a quick google search-
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2978...dows-7-8-amidst-windows-10-privacy-storm.html

The changes were made to the privacy policy to reflect existing behavior. NOT to add new behavior.

Similarly:
http://arstechnica.com/information-...dows-privacy-policy-a-little-more-reassuring/

The clarification was in the policy, not the behavior.
Thus, Win 10 isn't as bad as so many FUDers claim, and Win 7 is doing more than they thought.

Modred189 said:

You mean like how you can use Win10 without ever touching a "metro" (or "modern") app if you so choose?

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Unless they changed it from 8.1 then I sometimes still have to see metro when I don't want it to, but it works.
Windows 7 just works as an OS for me. I don't want fisher price blocks on my desktop. Its fine on my phone/tablet.

Modred189 said:

The story was all over. After a quick google search-
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2978...dows-7-8-amidst-windows-10-privacy-storm.html

The changes were made to the privacy policy to reflect existing behavior. NOT to add new behavior.

Similarly:
http://arstechnica.com/information-...dows-privacy-policy-a-little-more-reassuring/

The clarification was in the policy, not the behavior.
Thus, Win 10 isn't as bad as so many FUDers claim, and Win 7 is doing more than they thought.

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Heatlessunn? Is that you on an alt account?


Some people have different tastes and want different things. Its too bad MS can't let the user decide.

ccman said:

Is the perception that everyone who criticizes Windows 10 is either a Mac fanboy, a Linux fanboy, or has never actually used Windows 10 and doesn't know what they're talking about?

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It's a bit more complicated than this. Sure there are things that I think even people who like Windows 10 get that others don't like and much of it's fair. I understand the issue with not totally being able to disable telemetry. It's just that many are saying things about this subject with no proof. Criticize something for what it is, not for something that's simply made up.

ccman said:

Why would someone who has never used Windows 10 spend time complaining about it? If it really is that they/we do not know what they/we are talking about, is it not better to inform in a kind tone? Someone may think they have a legitimate complaint, be told how to address it nicely, and be turned around. Being told you don't know what you're freaking talking about isn't going to win anyone over.

Besides, it was Bill Gates (who built Microsoft from nothing) who said "your unhappy customer are your greatest source of learning."

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There are things that many critics aren't using however. The universal apps for instance. There are a number of very good ones and some of the included ones are more than capable. Photos, Calendar, Maps and Alarms would probably be all that many would need for these functions, they are certainly better than what came with Windows 7, 7 for instance never came with in the box alarm/clock/stopwatch app. Cortana, that's something that plenty would find useful. But again, any of the mobile type stuff is rejected out of hand because it's not "desktop enough" or "desktops aren't phone and should leverage personal" data.

It's one thing to listen to unhappy customers. It's another not to make changes in a product to keep up with the times. The desktop is still important but we live in an age of mobile and apps and services. If this stuff doesn't have a place on the desktop then it's pretty clear that fewer and fewer consumers will use desktops. Concentrating solely on the desktop isn't enough for Windows today. Creating the "ultimate desktop" isn't going to get more people using desktop operating systems. Sure you want to keep the base happy but that's not enough for anything else than maintaining a market with no growth.

So it's balancing act. Lot's Windows users, lots of hardware and software and expectations. Maybe Windows is trying to do too many things for too many people. But I don't see that being any worse option than trying to do fewer things for fewer people in a market you already dominate.

Hagrid said:

Unless they changed it from 8.1 then I sometimes still have to see metro when I don't want it to, but it works.
Windows 7 just works as an OS for me. I don't want fisher price blocks on my desktop. Its fine on my phone/tablet.

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They changed it from Windows 8.1.
The CLOSEST thing you see are (optional, removable) live-tiles in your start menu. Otherwise, nothing is "metro." Some areas are more stylized than before (windows update screen, bluetooth connectivity screen), but are not metro apps.

Hagrid said:

I don't want fisher price blocks on my desktop. Its fine on my phone/tablet.

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What I've always for interesting about this type of comment is that tiles are inherently more capable than static icons.

Modred189 said:

Because the cost in customer frustration of such a button is not worth appeasing the vocal super-minority. The average consumer might hit that and disable all kinds of things, and be left wading through windows telling them that X-feature has been disabled etc. And if you think Windows 7, that you apparently switched back to, isn't doing similar or identical data collection, you are mistaken.

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I don't think it necessarily needs to be one button. I wouldn't mind if the feature(s) was buried under the Group Policy Object Editor for the local computer policy or had to be enabled with a manual registry entry. I wouldn't mind if it was restricted to Pro or if Microsoft released an Ultimate version that you had to purchase to unlock the ability to turn off every bit of telemetry you do not want turned on. It feels like a slap in the face that Microsoft will only allow Enterprise customers choice in privacy (and automatic data exfiltration, to be blunt, even if the data exfiltration is completely anonymous). Feels like disdain for their customers.

heatlesssun said:

What I've always for interesting about this type of comment is that tiles are inherently more capable than static icons.

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I don't need tiles, metro, this changed because MS thinks its good. I just need an OS that works for me. Windows 7 just worked great. I don't have many icons, rarely use search. I don't think its too much to ask for an install that is just like W7 but with the added capability(DX12, etc).