Windows 11 leak reveals new UI, Start menu, and more (UPDATE - added source for Windows 10 retirement date)

ManofGod

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Til this day, I will still say that Windows 8.1 was the best version of Windows I've ever used and every device that can still run it in my house does. But I understand that people are reluctant to change and that totally killed the direction that Microsoft was going in and it would have been so polished by now. I mean, I questioned a LOT of tech enthusiast actual technical acumen when I saw how life couldn't be lived without a start button..lol.

But all in all, you are absolutely right about the integration piece and I think about what could have been years ago. Unified code between desktop/mobile, UWP apps, & Continuum were looking promising

I do not need a start button, as in Windows for Workgroups 3.11, OS/2 Warp 3 and Amiga 2.04. To this day, I still prefer a button bar to have one click access to what I used on a daily basis, which is why I prefer Ubuntu with GNome 3.38.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Just because a folder named "control panel" still exists, doesn't mean it's the traditional control panel.

Microsoft has slowly been killing off the control panel since Windows 8 with the introduction of the Metro settings page. There was no uniformity to either beyond that point, some settings were duplicated, some were only available in one or the other, and some were hidden behind a maddening length of sub windows, dialog boxes, hyperlinks or deleted entirely. Some of the more obscure settings require editing the registry or modifying group policy settings, the latter of which isn't possible on Home versions without some ugly hacks to enable gpedit.

Luckily such matters are no longer a problem for me. With my new workstation build, I ditched Windows 7 and went to Linux, couldn't be happier. Been a Linux user for over 20 years, and my workstation was the last holdout because of some legacy stuff, but recent improvements in wine and virtualbox made the switch possible.
 

ManofGod

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Just because a folder named "control panel" still exists, doesn't mean it's the traditional control panel.

Microsoft has slowly been killing off the control panel since Windows 8 with the introduction of the Metro settings page. There was no uniformity to either beyond that point, some settings were duplicated, some were only available in one or the other, and some were hidden behind a maddening length of sub windows, dialog boxes, hyperlinks or deleted entirely. Some of the more obscure settings require editing the registry or modifying group policy settings, the latter of which isn't possible on Home versions without some ugly hacks to enable gpedit.

Luckily such matters are no longer a problem for me. With my new workstation build, I ditched Windows 7 and went to Linux, couldn't be happier. Been a Linux user for over 20 years, and my workstation was the last holdout because of some legacy stuff, but recent improvements in wine and virtualbox made the switch possible.

Until VFIO works with one video card only machines on consumer grade hardware, I will be booting into Windows 10 directly to play games that I cannot run under Linux. However, I only have a 500GB SSD for it and only install the games that I am playing at that time. (Red Dead Redemption 2 Rockstar Launcher version and not the Steam version.) I also use Ubuntu 20.04.2 LTS because I do not need a start menu and can live without it, like when I thought OS/2 was the best PC OS available.
 

jardows

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People freaking out with each new version of a Windows release has been something I enjoy since Windows XP.

And to think, there are still professionals and enthusiasts out there that don't know you can right click the start menu in 10 to access basically anything useful from the Control Panel.

/Insert smooth brain meme
I've been watching this freakout since 1995. Then every time there is a new version, they want to go back to the version just a few years ago they were crying about. Personally, I hope they truly fix the start menu. I've hated it since 1995, and Windows 10 got it closest to usability.
 

Domingo

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I actually like the new look. I've always liked the aesthetics of MacOS, I just just never wanted a Mac. Windows 10 has always felt disjointed. One foot in Windows XP and one foot in something new. This finally looks like the OS is ready to move on from that older look for good.
 

NKD

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ROFL. I knew everyone would out with forks at it as soon as it leaks hahahaa. I fucking hate the start button all the way on the left on my 43 inch wide screen, sure I can live with it but wish I could move it. Also why are people assuming you wouldn't have a dark skin on this like you do today? That's the first thing I would do. ROFL its got shit in the center and it looks like MAC? hahahahaha some of you are just hilarious.
 

ManofGod

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I actually like the new look. I've always liked the aesthetics of MacOS, I just just never wanted a Mac. Windows 10 has always felt disjointed. One foot in Windows XP and one foot in something new. This finally looks like the OS is ready to move on from that older look for good.

Yeah, it is crazy when you consider that when running OS/2 Warp 3 for Windows, you could run a Windows 3.1 program in seamless mode and it applied all the OS/2 window decorations and settings to it.
 
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Lakados

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Apples store although I'm not a fan is at least based on solid tech. Having a package manager is what sets *nix OSs of all flavors apart from Windows. People got used to willy nilly just installing stuff and letting it copy stuff where ever it liked.... and updating software by hand ect.

Another reason why I say MS would be 1000% better off moving to Linux. They could introduce the Microsoft Package Manager and actually call it that and people wouldn't be upset. In fact it would be look at this wonderful new thing. lol
You mean like any software downloaded from the windows store??
If you want a more “traditional” interface to the windows package manager you can download “Winget” or “Chocolaty”
 

jahsoul

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Personally, while I loathed the UI, I liked Windows 8.1 for its speed and resource management. Windows 8.1 with Classic Start = winner.
Crap, in my book, Windows 8.1 with its standard start menu was a winner. After using it for a few days, it was just second nature and got me to everything that I used faster than before but those reasons that you mentioned you liked 8.1 always gets lost on a lot of people.
 

Axman

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Personally, I hope they truly fix the start menu. I've hated it since 1995, and Windows 10 got it closest to usability.

What makes 10 useful at all? Vista had the best start menu. Easy to configure and customize, had access to four major functions: favorites, system, recent, and search. Are you honestly saying that the last time previously Windows was useful was Windows 3.1?
 

Ur_Mom

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You can move the start button to the left. It's just default in the center. More customization that I like. It's still an early build, so it'll have a lot of updates to make it better. I have it installed on a VM and it works just fine. It's Windows 10 but prettier. Don't know why it's such a big leap that it's a new version, though... Nothing really fundamentally different that I can see. Maybe they're holding back on some things that are under the hood and they'll be added later, I don't know.

Some say XP was the best. Remember all the complaints and stuff about the Tonka theme... The new versions always suck until the next one comes along, then the previous one was "just fine" (and in some cases, almost perfect.... Windows 7 was excellent).
 

sadsteve

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I wish my kids didn't play fortnite or Roblox.. both of those are the only things keeping me on windows.

I mean, how the hell does fortnite not work in Linux? It works across cell phones, consoles and PC's all together.... But no Linux. Crazy.
Yep, the only things keeping a Windows partition on my main machine is gaming and photo editing (I pretty much hate Gimp!). Most of my time is spent in MX Linux.
 
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Looks like a modern linux distro .This is an interesting strategy, but also a risky one as it blurs the line even further between the two.
 

jardows

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What makes 10 useful at all? Vista had the best start menu. Easy to configure and customize, had access to four major functions: favorites, system, recent, and search. Are you honestly saying that the last time previously Windows was useful was Windows 3.1?
Scrolling through long lists is not a good method to find programs. Look at how Android and iOS deal with application launching - it's nothing short of an evolution of the interface from Win 3.1. Why do so many Windows and Mac users clutter up their desktops with icons? Basically they are re-creating the Windows 3.1 experience. I'm not saying that the category/icon implementation of Win 3.1 was the greatest, but the start menu was an absolute disaster in my opinion.

Windows 10 gave us "Pin to Start" and the ability to have frequently used programs quickly available without having to search or scroll through long lists. Not perfect, because to get it to that level of usability you have to customize it, but customize it you can.
 

jfreund

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Windows 10 gave us "Pin to Start" and the ability to have frequently used programs quickly available without having to search or scroll through long lists. Not perfect, because to get it to that level of usability you have to customize it, but customize it you can.

We've had that since XP with the Quicklaunch toolbar, which I still find more useful and a better use of screen space than "pin to".
 
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Axman

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it's nothing short of an evolution of the interface from Win 3.1.

So what you're saying is no start menu is better than a start menu since some people don't use a start menu.

OK, keep on not using it. I do, all the time, for damn near everything. I use my desktop as a desktop: for works in progress, and when I'm done with them, I clear it off. I don't want to be forced to use my desktop as my start menu. I want a start menu.

And guess what? Open-Shell provides it for me. I'm guessing it will keep on providing it for me if I wind up with Windows 11, since they're apparently not changing anything but how it looks.
 

ChadD

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You mean like any software downloaded from the windows store??
If you want a more “traditional” interface to the windows package manager you can download “Winget” or “Chocolaty”

Those are well and good... my point is you can still just click on a EXE in windows and install it... after clicking one ok button. Microsoft should force software to install through its "store".
Having said that as has been pointed out... Microsoft is already going that way. They just announced a couple weeks ago Windows Package Manager 1.0.
Microsoft needs to force its developers to use proper package manager and dependency tracking... and stop all the download from X or Y website programs and updates. Its by far the single biggest reason windows is so insecure. Microsoft has done a lot of good things on the back end to make Windows more secure... which is almost all completely undone by just how easy it is for developers to just bypass a big chunk of it and get damn near unlimited admin priv with one user click. There is no need for 99% of software people install to have write access to windows system directories... and yet that is what happens.

Apple does it right.... they don't stop anyone from installing anything they want. But that isn't the default setup. Yes its more complicated to enable third party installs. Which is a good thing. They also for the most part still allow that stuff to link to their package manager. I mean hell game developers still package directx with games ect. Its silly a package manager makes everyones lives easier. Developers and Users.

Fingers crossed Microsoft has big plans for their new Windows Package Manager.
 

Eulogy

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Microsoft should force software to install through its "store".
A ton of people, especially probably on this forum, would collectively lose their shit if this happened. It would be hilarious to see the heads exploding, sure, but not worth having to wade through page after page of adults crying.
 

pendragon1

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A ton of people, especially probably on this forum, would collectively lose their shit if this happened. It would be hilarious to see the heads exploding, sure, but not worth having to wade through page after page of adults crying.
thing is, they tried, we reeeeeeeed and they listened. now he wants the opposite...
 

LukeTbk

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There is no need for 99% of software people install to have write access to windows system directories... and yet that is what happens.
If the software I make for my job is an indication, that stopped to be true with Vista (we had to start to user correct user folders for our writing files instead of the program files where the software was installed), has it would fail on most clients without an admin account (the norm for those who have an IT departments), windows system is even more lock than program files folder.

Has for forcing software to install through its store, I feel that would "break" windows has we know it and a I giant risk, how many time do people send a custom installer/dlls for a clients with a small fix, maybe even the day they had the issue reported, if it would it need to pass thought any signing and validating that would make it quite complicated for us, I feel like a company of less than 5 peoples.
 

ChadD

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No doubt long time windows users would be upset. Microsoft makes too many stupid decisions trying to keep people doing things stupidly happy. They need to stop trying to make an OS with 20 years of deep compatibility.

No doubt though ya every time MS has updated their software install security it has been met with hate.

They are probably going the right way around this time... calling a Package Manager, and engaging the open source community in its development. The problem for MS in the past is all they really did was implement a fake line of security that simply amounted to a bunch of clicks no one paid attention too to bypass their warnings.... and then they built a semi package management system called it their store and tied it to all that baggage while also trying to push windows developers to new APIs, that it seems to me a lot of developers where also not super hot on.

I am doubtful MS ever goes full on and push everything to a package manager 100% of the time... you guys are right most windows users would freakout, but they also aren't going to go buy Macs or install Linux so F em. ;) Having helped a few companies switch to Linux... and helping a good number of regular users take up Linux. Yes secure proper admin setups... and not being able to just click a .exe or .msi file and power click a bunch of things till it works takes some brain retraining for a lot of people.
 

cybereality

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Honestly, Windows users on Linux would do the same thing.

You Google a problem and find a StackOverflow comment with a bunch of console commands, that you just paste in blindly. Or adding PPAs for a random desktop theme, etc. that can destroy your security.

And you can also just run executables you download from the web or random *.deb packages. It's only as secure as you make it, it's still easy to make mistakes.

Also, back to Windows, since the security changes made on Vista, it is now much harder to get infected. Yes, you still have to be careful, but it's not like the XP days where you would get a virus every other week.

On Win 10, if you don't visit shady websites, keep your system updated, and run a good anti-virus, you won't get infected. I can't even remember the last virus I got, it was so many years ago.
 

ChadD

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If the software I make for my job is an indication, that stopped to be true with Vista (we had to start to user correct user folders for our writing files instead of the program files where the software was installed), has it would fail on most clients without an admin account (the norm for those who have an IT departments), windows system is even more lock than program files folder.

Has for forcing software to install through its store, I feel that would "break" windows has we know it and a I giant risk, how many time do people send a custom installer/dlls for a clients with a small fix, maybe even the day they had the issue reported, if it would it need to pass thought any signing and validating that would make it quite complicated for us, I feel like a company of less than 5 peoples.
Do you guys really send a lot of custom .dll files.... that's fair. I believe a package management system would make that easier for you not harder. It should ensure no breakage down the road if you specify specific versions of dependencies.

One thing I like about supporting Linux is for the most part I can rely on dependencies.... or a custom dependency can be defined.

I think if MS was going to attempt to increase the uptake on a package management system defining such things could be made quite easy. As an example of a imo good package manager if you take say Arch Linux adding a script to install something via the AUR is actually quite intuitive and easy. Its not a big deal to add arguments to install X or Y dependencies... and to define custom versioning as required. I would think if MS builds their WPM properly they could use a very simple scripting setup for installs that can be customized. I am not advocating never being able to install third party... simply that the WPM should be aware of such installs making it super easy to remove said things... and to help reduce OS bloat ect. MS will need to add a way to create WPM scripts.

One way this could make life easier for you guys or anyone else in a smaller custom software house would be through strict dependence maintenance. Again not to go back to Linux.... however. If I was to add my custom bit of software to the AUR (or you build your own debian pacakge) and I want the package manager to use whatever the latest version of Python is I can define it that way. If I want it to always always use version 2.7.15 I can define that dependency. From then on the package manager would not remove that version even if the client installs the latest version of Python for some other software. When I update the software I can either leave that reliance... or at some point if I change the software and require the latest or a different version that can be updated. Microsoft I have no doubt will add the same tools... I haven't looked much into their latest WPM but that is pretty basic PM behaviour. For sure its not how things work now but I don't see it being a major issue... if anything I think it can help smaller outfits requiring older versions of dependencies... I mean how often under windows does a customer run updates and break something for a custom piece of software.

Normally I would say MS would probably make a mess of it, but they do seem to be listening to the general open source community more then ever. Hopefully if they do roll out a larger scale PM system it won't be a complete shit show.
 

Lakados

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Honestly, Windows users on Linux would do the same thing.

You Google a problem and find a StackOverflow comment with a bunch of console commands, that you just paste in blindly. Or adding PPAs for a random desktop theme, etc. that can destroy your security.

And you can also just run executables you download from the web or random *.deb packages. It's only as secure as you make it, it's still easy to make mistakes.

Also, back to Windows, since the security changes made on Vista, it is now much harder to get infected. Yes, you still have to be careful, but it's not like the XP days where you would get a virus every other week.

On Win 10, if you don't visit shady websites, keep your system updated, and run a good anti-virus, you won't get infected. I can't even remember the last virus I got, it was so many years ago.
Honestly, if you keep Windows Defender updated and you have a decent firewall in place 99% of the bad stuff gets filtered long before it ever gets to the desktop. Most "Viruses" now on windows 10 are one of two things: simple drive-by things that mess with a single user's profile that can be cleared pretty easily from another user with admin access to that machine; or something specifically targeted to their systems that some team of individuals spent a great deal of time infiltrating your systems to launch a very sophisticated full surface attack.

Really though 99% of the stuff I see at this stage is email scams and people getting their credentials phished out not actual viruses. Back 10 years ago windows viruses were the go-to because everybody had a windows PC, now Android viruses are the big ones out there, crap tons of unpatched Androids all over with all sorts of personal information up for grabs being operated by people who don't know better. Windows 10 made it generally too hard with too little of a payoff for most people out there to spend much time with the traditional Virus route, not that it doesn't happen, but there are better targets out there now.
 

LukeTbk

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Do you guys really send a lot of custom .dll files.... that's fair. I believe a package management system would make that easier for you not harder. It should ensure no breakage down the road if you specify specific versions of dependencies.
Yes it is a really small numbers of specialized clients for niche product, package manager does not seem an issue, it is the store part (if it is really an actual store that add any security, i.e. that everything that go through need to be certified by a process that conclude that is both safe and respect norms) that sound like could be an issue for a certain type of niche software made by very small group of entreprise that need to react to small hardware change around the world, for people that are on location with a group of subject or situation and want something that afternoon or tomorrow.

Quick custom dll can be very nice to test thing on impossible to reproduce issue on your own hardware has well (to try a little thing or add debug traces)
 
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ChadD

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Yes it is a really small numbers of specialized clients for niche product, package manager does not seem an issue, it is the store part (if it is really an actual store that add any security, i.e. that everything that go through need to be certified by a process that conclude that is both safe and respect norms) that sound like could be an issue for a certain type of niche software made by very small group of entreprise that need to react to small hardware change around the world, for people that are on location with a group of subject or situation and want something that afternoon or tomorrow.

Quick custom dll can be very nice to test thing on impossible to reproduce issue on your own hardware has well (to try a little thing or add debug traces)
I understand what your saying now. I agree if MS was to 100% lock their package manager to a certified by MS type program it would be terrible for such things. IMO if MS was smart and Win 11 is happening they would create a package manager AND a store. Then no one can accuse the PM of being a store. I think users should have the ability to install customized things that are not rubber stamped. I simply believe doing so should require changing of some settings in the PM... and things like Admin passwords to continue. (not just a simple dialog box to click off).

Your right it could be a big mess for tons of companies if a certification process was required for any installation.
 

Sloginfizz

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Looks like they are gearing their OS to work on both PCs and mobile devices. Hey Microsoft! what works on my phone will not work on my 43" monitor!

I hate they have already made a mess of scaling, but now everything is centered in the middle of my monitor with empty margins.
 

LukeTbk

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I think users should have the ability to install customized things that are not rubber stamped. I simply believe doing so should require changing of some settings in the PM...

They already show on the first run this warning to the user and make finding the button hided by a 2 step process, you need to click more info to access the button to be able to ran it:
cr3hz.png

They do sell windows like that now (S-Mode):
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-in-s-mode-faq-851057d6-1ee9-b9e5-c30b-93baebeebc85#:~:text=Windows 10 in S mode is a version of Windows,10 in S mode page.

You need to change your OS to normal mode to install the first non signed application, which is a big deal, showing that they probably want to go toward the direction you are talking about, but the issue is windows strength is a lot in the giant legacy of old applications, breaking their support (if the virtual machine running them create issues) would be breaking their number 1 selling points, if only new stuff work, why use windows at all.... which create the issue of never starting from scratch they have and will never be able to be has good has the rest on many aspect.
 

Lakados

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They already show on the first run this warning to the user and make finding the button hided by a 2 step process, you need to click more info to access the button to be able to ran it:
View attachment 366763

They do sell windows like that now (S-Mode):
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-in-s-mode-faq-851057d6-1ee9-b9e5-c30b-93baebeebc85#:~:text=Windows 10 in S mode is a version of Windows,10 in S mode page.

You need to change your OS to normal mode to install the first non signed application, which is a big deal, showing that they probably want to go toward the direction you are talking about, but the issue is windows strength is a lot in the giant legacy of old applications, breaking their support (if the virtual machine running them create issues) would be breaking their number 1 selling points, if only new stuff work, why use windows at all.... which create the issue of never starting from scratch they have and will never be able to be has good has the rest on many aspect.
Microsoft has to spend the next 5-10 years baby-stepping its way to what Apple and Linux already have. They can't just flip a switch and kill off all those legacy applications because if they do why stay with windows, you're replacing all your software anyways maybe they go elsewhere as a thank you for making them change their whole workflow. It's going to be all about the little harassment windows like this one, to gradually get the windows developers to adopt better practices so when they do flip that switch 99% of the marketplace is already there.
 

AVATARAT

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I want windows to work fine and fast without the need to repair it each week or after every video driver.
About UI - it can be changed... App-let style is garbage but who knows maybe they can fix it.
 

Axman

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Both AMD and Intel are moving to big-little designs; there's not a snowball's chance that they won't be supported on Windows 10 unless they immediately EOL it when they launch 11.
 

Rizen

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I didn't read the entire thread because there's already 4 pages but ... this looks like Windows 10 with centered icons in the start bar. Frankly as an Ultrawide 21:9 user, that wouldn't be a bad thing for me. In the sourced Verge article it says you can still left align the icons and start menu, and otherwise it looks the same as Windows 10, so ... what's the big deal here?
 

ChadD

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They already show on the first run this warning to the user and make finding the button hided by a 2 step process, you need to click more info to access the button to be able to ran it:
View attachment 366763

They do sell windows like that now (S-Mode):
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-in-s-mode-faq-851057d6-1ee9-b9e5-c30b-93baebeebc85#:~:text=Windows 10 in S mode is a version of Windows,10 in S mode page.

You need to change your OS to normal mode to install the first non signed application, which is a big deal, showing that they probably want to go toward the direction you are talking about, but the issue is windows strength is a lot in the giant legacy of old applications, breaking their support (if the virtual machine running them create issues) would be breaking their number 1 selling points, if only new stuff work, why use windows at all.... which create the issue of never starting from scratch they have and will never be able to be has good has the rest on many aspect.

Indeed. That is the problem Trying to support 30 years of legacy software is not good for business. No matter what anyone thinks of windows the simple fact is windows isn't the exactly the defacto standard it once was. 2020 is the first year ChromeOS outsold MacOS... and both have gained market share. We can say all that legacy support is a selling point... but really a selling point for whom ? Not average consumers anyway. Perhaps for some corporate users that may be true... but really at this point how far back do they need to go. Its not like much of anyone is still running XP era stuff.

The problem with windows-s is it is still called windows. lol Its confusing to customers.

I'm really not sure what the best path forward for MS and windows is. It seems clear though that if they keep doing what they are doing they are going to continue dropping market share. And no I'm not suggesting their on the road to ruin... they are still the dominant PC and Laptop OS. But they are slipping... and when companies start to slip they tend to either react poorly and make it worse or turn a corner and go a very unexpected direction.

We'll see should be an interesting year or two over and MS. Who knows perhaps they are holding their new locked down "totaly not windows -s" for new surface devices with the rumored Microsoft silicon.
 
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