Windows 10 October Update is Losing User Data

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by AlphaAtlas, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,346
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    So you don't want to name anyone?

    The point is that this is one thing that can kill data. There are many, enough that losing data for any reason that a backup could have prevented is on the user.

    No, Microsoft's update should not be deleting data, but yes, it's still the users' responsibility.
     
    heatlesssun likes this.
  2. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,488
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Sadly, this highlights a big Microsoft failing. If they want to sell Win 10 as the last Windows for everyone, part of the push should be reminding folks to backup stuff. They force telemetry collection and updates unless you jump through several hoops that often get undone with the next update and yet how often does it remind you that today might be a good day to backup at least your My Docs to a stand alone storage system, flash drive, portable drive or even their own cloud product? And whoever is the QA manager that signed off on this update should be tasked with phone duty to handle the "How do I get my data back?" calls.
     
    d3athf1sh, qb4ever and clockdogg like this.
  3. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,397
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    I would say the user is at fault, but Ms is more at fault for forcing it.
    If they would keep it so it does not do the big update but the smaller ones might help. But it's on by default.
     
    IdiotInCharge likes this.
  4. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,346
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Yeah, I'd prefer that there be some form of backup system in place, specifically because these updates do so much and the more they do, the less MS can guarantee that something won't go wrong, including something unrecoverable.
     
  5. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,588
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    where the fuck did I say that?
     
    heatlesssun likes this.
  6. cdr_74_premium

    cdr_74_premium [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,579
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    I am debating ideas, not people. I honestly don't care who's the person behind a thought. Feel free to look for it.

    Well, it's the first time I hear about it. Windows Updates always had a risk of rendering the machine unusable, but it was always a matter of recovering the data through other means, as you couldn't access the OS. To have it vanish in a otherwise fully working system is unheard of, at least to me.

    The problem is when people stretch that to clear Microsoft of any wrongdoing, on a folder that regular updates having no business touching nevertheless.

    Well, the fact that many people think that's all on the user means they'll keep up with it.
     
    d3athf1sh likes this.
  7. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,397
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    No idea. Did you say it?
     
  8. exiled350

    exiled350 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,075
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    This is good. The less people with access to the internet, the better.
     
  9. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,346
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    If you can't name people after referencing people, then you're not debating.

    My god, there's so much that can kill a system, and this is a low-level change. The OS update itself may not kill data directly, but it could push something else over the edge. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp. Backups are important!

    There's 'people' again! Where are they!
     
    heatlesssun likes this.
  10. Spidey329

    Spidey329 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,677
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    There is, it appears to have failed in this case.

    Windows moves items to Windows.old and then updates the OS/files. If something fails, it can roll back Windows.old. It can delete that folder (as well as some of the large update staging folders) on the next scheduled clean up tasks. It's a basic backup task, but it usually does the job. The problem here seems to be that the task for backing up the user folders appears to have failed and a validation check wasn't done.


    I'm going to apply the update tonight. I'm curious if they've finally fixed the Nvidia latency issue (causes stuttering, hardlocks, and audio drop outs). Nvidia and MS acknowledged it was a major issue last October, yet supposedly it still remains. I somehow fixed it 6 months ago, but it reappeared last week. Annoying as hell. I'm learning I need to organize my notes/journal for PC fixes, as trying to find what I did prior is a p.i.t.a. at the moment.
     
  11. KenMitchell

    KenMitchell n00b

    Messages:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Backups are a good thing. Have some.
     
    heatlesssun likes this.
  12. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

    Messages:
    18,843
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    This, and I use Windows 7.
    Bliss :)
     
    Delicieuxz and clockdogg like this.
  13. cdr_74_premium

    cdr_74_premium [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,579
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Whatever.

    The wizardry behind the mess is unknown, but the fact that regularly scheduled updates are deleting files on C:\Users is unheard of. Updates should mess with OS stuff, not the Documents folder. A bunch of .doc files have nothing to do with OS updates.

    Yes, backups are important, but grandma will have to pay someone to fix that mess, as it's all a huge WTF for her. Even if that means restoring from backups.

    Microsoft pushes - forces - updates as if they're not a big deal, then boom. The bill is on grandma.

    Wherever.
     
    qb4ever and clockdogg like this.
  14. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,346
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    :ROFLMAO:
     
  15. clockdogg

    clockdogg Gawd

    Messages:
    902
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2007
    Pretty sure this latest fiasco is completely unrelated to Microsoft's mass firing of their Q&A department and restructuring of the Windows division into some weird agile SAASenstein.

    It's obviously the dumb Win10 Home user's fault for not backing up before an unexpected, unwanted update does something unwanted and unexpected.

    No one considers how incredibly difficult and expensive it would be for Microsoft to begin the update process with a prompt to backup user data before proceeding with a not-fully-tested, but mandatory update. And how impossible a task it is for Microsoft to create a simple, effective, reliable backup system that any user could use. That's like asking for desktop fusion to power your home. Can't be done by a mere OS provider.

    Microsoft is still a young 40+ year old startup with more important walled-garden projects to build than fully testing their own mandatory updates that they are forced, probably by aliens, to roll out twice a year. It's not like M$ can just release some security patches when required that fix only the things that need to be fixed. Can't be done. The stupid people (and their alien overlords) demand useless features - twice a year!

    The best Microsoft can do is backup critical user behavior data for 'diagnostic' purposes or other 'valid business need' to an encrypted folder on the user's drive that is uploaded to Microsoft's own cloud servers at regular intervals - servers operated by professional techs to ensure backup operations perform as intended.

    That's why I refer non-computer-literate friends to the First Law of Safe Computing: If it's really important, don't put it on a computer.

    /s
     
    Ranulfo, triwolf and cdr_74_premium like this.
  16. Ryun

    Ryun Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    256
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Why are their so many people in this thread suggesting that one drive for everything is idiocy? If your data drive goes you still have the same issue...

    Backups are good suggestions though. Also, dang MS what a clusterf**k.
     
  17. DrBorg

    DrBorg Gawd

    Messages:
    555
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    I have over 6TB of saved data.

    It's on two Raid-5 arrays, that are mirrors of each other. 5x 2TB arrays.

    Once a year, I copy all the new data onto sets of blu-rays, and store them somewhere else.

    And No, it's not All porn. :)

    If you want to keep data, you make copies.

    So, it looks like WinX is the continual Beta-Code POS I thought it was when I refused to let it on my computer; It's nice to be right once in a while. :)
     
  18. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    So how many machines have been updated to 1809 and how many have lost data in the process? If something happens 100 times across millions of updates, that's not a cluster. If it's happening thousands or tens of thousands of times that's something to be much more concerned about.
     
  19. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,397
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Tell that to the 100 if that is how many.
     
  20. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    But there would be a SIGNIFICANT difference in the severity of the problem if say it happened 100 times out of a million versus 10,000 times out or a million. The failure rate matters because no process is going to be without some type of failure or bug, all non-trivial software has bugs and is susceptible to failure.
     
    IdiotInCharge likes this.
  21. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,397
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Still changes nothing. If they can't fix a bug, then they should ask a company that can or just make it not update automatically and let the user control it. Common sense!
     
  22. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,725
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    This happens all the time under Windows 10, it's in no way unique to the latest update.

    Expose yourself to more than just a couple of PC's around your home or a tightly controlled corporate network and you'll soon see the problem happens far more often than is in any way acceptable.
     
    triwolf likes this.
  23. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    We have no data on the situation that's been reported. This might have been a problem with the Windows 10 update process or something else entirely.
     
  24. shpankey

    shpankey Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    157
    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    I've been in the fast ring. There's a new option for storage that can and will deleted old files. It's an option you have to turn off with a recent update.
     
  25. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    That's just it. I have a dozen Windows 10 devices in the house. I've run these updates hundreds of times across the years. I've not once experienced a catastrophic failure of this nature with a non-insider builds.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
    pendragon1 likes this.
  26. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,346
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Not a dozen, but same.

    Now, those insider builds... :D
     
    heatlesssun likes this.
  27. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,588
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    so far nobody claiming to have lost data will answer if they compared hdd usage before and after. if put money on the files just being in the wrong location. shit, ive even had the last update boot a system into a totally blank temp account, rebooted several times and it went back to the real account and everything was fine.

    that cleans the temp files, downloads and recycle bin. the downloads is a new one and could be a prob for people that keep everything there.
     
    shpankey and heatlesssun like this.
  28. I posted this about an hour ago. Sorry. I had no idea that it was a duplicate post.
     
  29. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,588
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
  30. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Fast ring insider builds can be iffy which is why you should only run them on test devices.
     
    IdiotInCharge likes this.
  31. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,346
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Yeah, I'm guilty of that one. Just no reason to move stuff elsewhere when you can leave it there and search for it, though mine aren't kept on the boot drive. I'm still wary about filling up C:, I don't know of any operating system that doesn't shit the bed when it's root drive is full!
     
    pendragon1 likes this.
  32. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,588
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    ppfffftt. my main rig is my insider, from day one. never had a major issue, never lost data after numerous updates.

    ive had dozens and dozen of win10 systems come through and never any issue that were on ms. always other software or hardware.

    I d/l to desktop, then use and delete or move to a "safe space"
     
    IdiotInCharge and heatlesssun like this.
  33. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    I've never lost any data even with an insider build. Generally the problems have been failure to install at all which I would classify as catastrophic though low on the scale.
     
    pendragon1 likes this.
  34. dark_reign

    dark_reign 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,218
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    With this recent update, I only saw files missing in the downloads folder. I do regular backups to 2 SSDs and 2 mechanical drives, so all files are safe. Still, this fuckup shouldn't have happened.
     
  35. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,588
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    has it been proven that its actually a problem and not a ID10T error? not that ive seen...
     
  36. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,273
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    A fresh install on an empty HDD is the ONLY way to install Windows, anything else is just asking for trouble, always has been, and probably always will be, at least until we are not allowed to have a home computer which has its own storage and software installed on it.
     
  37. dark_reign

    dark_reign 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,218
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    You mean files disappearing without me manually deleting them? I can't remember any PC I've built in the last 20+ years that did that.
     
    pendragon1 likes this.
  38. triwolf

    triwolf Gawd

    Messages:
    708
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Everyone should be doing regular backups.

    The problem is MS doesn't even warn you before installing updates, and most people I know have things called "real lives" where things happen, and backups can be forgotten or not ran for a while.

    It doesn't excuse MS from either prompting you to backup before the update, or you know, actually letting the person who owns the hardware have some control.
     
    Hagrid likes this.
  39. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    13,588
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    I have only ever lost files to drive failure.



    they can always enable Backup.
     
  40. triwolf

    triwolf Gawd

    Messages:
    708
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    No offense meant, but your sample size for your study is 1 person. Hardly science. Sometimes things can go wrong, even from something simple like a PC not being rebooted for a while, things can, and do go wrong.
     
    Jim Kim and Hagrid like this.