DrLobotomy
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 19, 2016
- Messages
- 6,736
Right click the Start Menu in Win 10 and behold.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Windows 10 New Start Button redesign
- Thread starter Comixbooks
- Start date
So something you have to do once when you install Windows is a major pain point for you? Really? FFS, easy peasy. Not only that, but you can also easily add COntrol Panel (though I rarely go there, since it's now just as easy, if not easier, to type what I want in the start menu and launch whatever) or a networking folder and so on. I'd like it to have my ideal desktop too, but I"m pretty sure what I want isn't what you want....especially since you have an issue with the start menu, while I haven't changed a thing about how I use it in at least 10 years and there's a decent chance I haven't changed since the later days of Vista, but I simply don't remembre, so I'll stick with Win 7, which I believe I installed the gold version almost exactly 10 years ago.
I say this in all these debates, but very few people on here that complain have a reason they couldn't just use it has it's really designed to be used, which is by using search to find your programs. That's infinitely easier than emulating a Windows XP menu (or worse still the Win 95 menu) and constantly organizing a start menu folder.
I did it in the early days of Vista...maybe even the very early days of 7, but once I learned how well search worked, I quit doing that.
Why don't you reduce it to one column from 2? And if you don't use most of the programs for those tiles, remove them.
Maybe to you. To me not so much. But hten I don't spend my days hunting and pecking for programs. I type services.msc + <enter> I type excel + enter. If I need dbpoweramp, I type it it's there. I can type faster than you can use a mouse (but if you can't type, then I get it).
That old menu was a PITA. Every time I installed a program, I probably had to move it to some other folder. And if I installed too much, then I probalby had to reorganize it again into more subcategories. That's way harder than just typing the program name and moving on. I don't know where most programs are in the start menu and I don't care. Requiring that is like knowing where some data in stored in a database, or using a database browser and scrolling through a table.
IndyColtsFan
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2017
- Messages
- 499
You’re missing the point. Why was My Computer removed? Why was the Start menu changed into this hulking behemoth with garbage live tiles which are useless? These were dumb decisions in my opinion. And they let some of this garbage infect their server OSes too, which is even more retarded. Change for the sake of change is meaningless. We all know MS was trying to unify their interface between devices rather than tailoring the interface to each device’s strengths, and it backfired spectacularly.
The search option to find programs is nice, but your viewpoint is limited. I’m not referring just to myself with my small fleet of PCs and servers at home. I’m thinking of millions of employees who aren’t computer enthusiasts who have to be retrained to use their corporate PCs. By the way, that is exactly why Windows 8 bombed. Windows 10 at least has something similar to the old Start menu, and with Windows 7 being old and extended support ending soon, corporations pretty much have to move.
If search is all you want and need, why are you complaining about what others want and need? It's obvious that it wouldn't affect you at all.
Beyond that, the Start Menu definitely has it's uses. First of all I do not remember the name of every single piece of software I have installed. I definitely don't know every single program MS has installed whether a simple application or an administration tool. The OS definitely isn't static and things are removed and added all the time. If the tool I've used for 10 years is suddenly removed and replaced by something else with a name that's not even remotely the same, how am I supposed to know to search for it?
Things get even worse for your specific point of view. No one is born with the knowledge of what software is on every single computer. You definitely weren't. You didn't know the names of the programs the first time you sat down in front of a computer. You had to learn all of that. One of the wonderful things about the Start Menu is that you can use it to browse the software installed. Third party programs will be listed there. Sometimes I don't remember the name of the program I want but can look in the start menu and once I see the name I know exactly what it is. Administrative tools, at least some of them, tend to be listed there. I didn't know which ones there were or what they did when I first sat in front of a computer. In the case of Win95 and newer I usually saw them listed in the Start Menu and from there I learned what they were and what they did.
I personally find the attitude of "search is all you need" downright pathetic and basically elitist. Memorizing the name of every single piece of software you might ever use so you can start it from search is something only a few obsessed people do. The other 99.9% of computer users are probably more than happy to have a usable Start Menu.
DeathFromBelow
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2005
- Messages
- 7,315
You didn't even look at the picture, did you?
Lets try this again:
The Start search feature is there and works just as you'd expect.
As I said, this is objectively a better start menu. Simple, intuitive, easy to use and organize. Why can't Microsoft even offer the option for something like this? They give BS excuses about the difficulties of maintaining code or say the complainers 'don't like change,' but the real issue is that some treehouse dwelling mouth breather with no real understanding of the product decided that the start menu should be a billboard to sell more crap. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if the same guy is selling one of those payware Start menu addons, it would explain why Microsoft seemed to find a way to break the free options like Classic Shell with every Windows 10 update.
The user experience is no longer the main focus because improving the user experience doesn't make them more money. The result has been a gradual erosion of the Windows platform to the point that users are rightfully afraid that updates will delete their data and break their computer.
Last edited:
If you say so. I quit using that menu (minus the search) with XP in 2007.
I get it. This is [H] and most users here can't handle changes to the OS. I got it in 2009, when most of these arguments were first made about losing the win 95 menu and how hard it'd be to retrain everyone. Admins on here basically said all their users were too stupid to learn something knew. Strangely, at my company all the stupid people made the move and required little new training.
As for the billboard, unless they change it to where you can't remove stuff, it's not really a big deal. I removed shit from Win XP, Vista, 7, 8.x and 10 and I never had to use some external shell to accomplish it. I removed the stuff I didn't want almost 4 years ago.
Most stuff doesn't require you to know the name. Want a command prompt? You can type command, cmd, dos and probably a few other things.
Want to change the time, try typing change time (or change date).
update windows/check if there are updates? Try update
My computer?
- Put it on yoru desktop
- put it on your task bar
- type my computer
- type my pc
- type this pc
- type pc
Type CD or DB
Want to convert a sound file from one format to another?
I'd probably type DB, but you can type convert and get one or 2 less options.
I get what you want. I use to use that method 10 or so years ago, but it's not 2009. WTH haven't you had tutorials on this shit at your company in the last 10 years? The GUI is going to change. Every piece of software I use has changed the UI in teh last 10-15 years. The win XP menu was deprecated a decade ago.
Hell, I use the same techniques on an iphone for little used programs, where I don't remember what folder they're in.
clownfish27
Weaksauce
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2010
- Messages
- 107
I like it!
IndyColtsFan
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2017
- Messages
- 499
I don’t recall seeing anyone saying people were too stupid to learn something new. In the real world, where you have tens of thousands of users spread globally, training users is not only a logistics challenge, but a massive cost. If you have 10,000 users who need an hour of training because Microsoft decided to replace something that worked perfectly well for no good reason, that’s nearly 5 man years of productivity lost and that doesn’t take into consideration lost productivity due to people not being as fast on their new systems while they ramp up. In fact, this is one of the primary reasons Windows 8 was such a colossal failure - no CIO in his/her right mind wanted to risk rolling that out. I know, because I directly reported to CIOs and knew their thought processes (and agreed). You’re also forgetting that MS repeatedly refused to add a Start button and menu to Windows 8 and the only reason they backtracked was because 1) corporations refused to even consider Windows 8 and 2) the negative publicity.
At least Windows 10’s Start menu is close enough to earlier versions that most people can use it, despite the fact it’s ugly, takes way too much space, and is clumsy. Good for you that you use search - as others have pointed out, that approach might work for you but is flawed for a number of reasons when applied to corporate environments. For those of us in consulting roles, the ultimate stupidity was applying that junk to their server operating systems.
DeathFromBelow
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2005
- Messages
- 7,315
I don't use the same static set of software forever. I work in aerospace and I generally have a few programs for each piece of hardware we're working on, it's fast and easy to keep a folder of my current toolset and shortcuts to frequently used documentation on the Start menu. When I'm working I don't have to type anything to open up a new user/computer/network/internet window, or hunt and peck through a giant list of every program on the machine like you do with the start menu on Windows 10, or sit there trying to remember a acronym for some project I was working on a month ago. I use Ubuntu on all my machines at home and I have the same frustration there: search is not an adequate replacement for a well organized launcher menu.
The tree-dwelling marketing critters at Microsoft probably know this and don't care. I think it's pretty obvious that Microsoft is pushing Start Search to prop-up Bing just like the tiles are there to push their failed app store.
Fair enough, but I'd argue the issue is more that MS isn't allowing you to search for a folder in the start menu (at least it doesn't seem like it does now that I tried it. And BTW, I was just picking random stuff. I've found repeatedly that I can find things by searching for what I want to do and it works, but, as I also said somewhere in this thread, that doesn't work with vertical apps.
I guess if I was in your position, I'd have a link to my projects folder on my desktop (and bug MS until they allow you to search for folders in the start menu, or at least make that an option you can turn on/off). If you search, for projects, then that folder comes up and you see whatever you have under than folder. MS should implement that. I don't organize anymore (with rare exceptions), so I didn't realize it didn't do that.
I personally found the tree structure became unworkable as time went on.
My point is that the arguments today are the same arguments that were made when trashing 7 10 years ago (on these very forums). If 10 years ago people were trained to search, it'd work for the vast majority of them. I work in a corporate environment and search works for most things.
As for 8, I always assumed most companies would stick with 7 until they were withing about 12-18 months of the 7 EOL date and that seems to be holding true.
GoldenTiger
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2004
- Messages
- 28,664
Yep. I remember both XP and win8 being called "Fischer price" by luddites too. The whines are the same everytime windows is updated.
86 5.0L
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 7,084
Not comparable. XP's default taskbar and start button colors didn't cause half the planet to be so revolted that they uninstall back to previous Windows for the next decade, like Windows 8 and then 10 managed to do.
With XP, MS also still respected users enough to let them switch to classic mode. Beginning with 8, MS removed choice and stole functionality for no reason other than to try to push a DOA mobile OS and app store, and to try to force a tablet interface onto PC desktops where it made no sense and didn't belong. Nevermind it was uglier than anything ever seen and no easy way to turn it off without hacks.
Somewhere between Windows 7 and Windows 8, Microsoft lost the concept of improvement as opposed to change. Ever since, they think that simply making a change counts as making it better, and that's been working out spectacularly bad for them.
People don’t hate change. They hate change for no reason, especially when it doesn't add any useful features, and worse, removes what was already working well.
Last edited:
It sorta works. Sometimes you have to click the start button twice or the text you're searching for doesn't even register, but eventually the file system catches up and Windows realizes the user's making some form of request.
IndyColtsFan
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2017
- Messages
- 499
XP and Windows 8 did look like something Fisher Price worked on. The difference between the two was that XP was a great success which functioned similarly to previous operating systems, whereas Microsoft ignored everyone’s feedback and pleas on Windows 8 and it was a colossal failure.
I didn't specifically remember that with XP. I do remember complaining about being spied on by MS (or something like that) when either SP1 or Sp2 was released. That said, as I recall, I always changed the XP shell to look like 2000. I think for a while I used the 95 start menu then I think I switched to the newer one and I know from Vista on I've used the default start menu.
Which half is that? It's definitely not shown on the Steam HW survey. 8 definitely underperformed, but it's nuts to think businesses were going to suddenly switch to 8, when they'd just upgraded to 7. as I recall, it took something like 5 or 6 years for most business desktops to move to XP. I believe it was a year or 2 after Sp2 that XP dominated. FFS, when XP came out, my company was just moving to 2000 from NT and 98. XP was mostly used by groups that made customer facing apps.
Hmm...never experienced that. Does it happen when you use the windows key on your keyboard (that's how I open the start menu 99% of the time)? I tried it a few times with the mouse, but seemed to work for me.
Honestly, I never tried the Windows key, but I assume it would be no different. As a tech I use the search feature all the time to open the Control Panel I'd say it works about 50% of the time, especially the first time it's used after boot. The Start Menu opens, you type and nothing, until you close the menu and click Start again.
Hmm...fwiw, I've gotten to the point where I never open control panel 9though I keep it on my desktop out of habit. I just type what I want to do and most of the time, the search finds what I want form the start menu (though as I recall, it initially had to be trained, since some tools were in both CP and Settings. Still strange that typing is messed up. I wonder if that's an issue with your install. I've had occasional issues with virtually every version of windows. In the old days I'd reinstall or see if I had a recent backup without the issue, I'd restore, but these days, I've generally got a major update waiting to be installed, and those almost always fix those types of issues (I'm guessing htose are in place upgrades that fix these types of things, but never researched it).
I really don't get these complaints. People are on touch screens even more now. Its just faster people. Learn to use the search better and wiggle your booger hook around the screen faster like you're on a tablet or phone even when using it as a desktop or laptop. Tree file systems are silly and old, learn to use a big screen of icons that may or may not be faster. Learn to contemporize man! Remember the name of every program you use or hope that windows search can figure out what you mean.
/end channel heatlesssun
Also, yes XP looked like baby's first OS in the default color scheme. You could change that if you wanted in the OS settings itself, no outside programs needed. Yes, they added in more wizards to walk your through things while making it harder to get at say, the networking settings. That said, at least it was still usable and not too hard to figure out what little things they changed or ended. Microsoft has been moving this way for years and ignoring customer advice due to arrogance and incompetence. Windows 8 literally had two settings menus, one for metro tablet and the other for desktop. At least Win10 search is better than 7/8. About all it has going for it IMO.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
/end channel heatlesssun
Also, yes XP looked like baby's first OS in the default color scheme. You could change that if you wanted in the OS settings itself, no outside programs needed. Yes, they added in more wizards to walk your through things while making it harder to get at say, the networking settings. That said, at least it was still usable and not too hard to figure out what little things they changed or ended. Microsoft has been moving this way for years and ignoring customer advice due to arrogance and incompetence. Windows 8 literally had two settings menus, one for metro tablet and the other for desktop. At least Win10 search is better than 7/8. About all it has going for it IMO.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 12,756
Windows 10 has quite a bit more going for it than just an improved search, even though you do not think so. To put it straight forward, the OS/2 Warp with Object Desktop or Amiga Workbench 2.04 where much better than Windows 98, NT, 2000 or XP. Windows 10 is fine just the way it is moving too and thankfully, the start menu is far more customizable than the old Windows 7 start menu. The start menu itself is not the epitome of desktop user interfaces, thankfully.
I was talking about 8+10 collectively, Heat. It took W10 nearly 4 years to catch up with 7's marketshare - and that's with the benefit of forced installs (GWX) and being the only option on new PCs. So yes half the planet remained on 7 for years and to an extent will continue to. Steam HW Survey =/= the planet.
So the people trying to minimize the complaints about 8/10 as "well it's exactly the same as when people complained about XP's default colors" are a little off the mark.
Last edited:
Out of this entire thread the only conclusion I can make is that it would be nice if Microsoft tracked your favorite apps, made a very flexible and modifiable system for the Start, Desktop, Explorer, Taskbar and System components, offered you a dozen presets or templates, and allowed you (or your administrator) to save your preferences.
That's what Microsoft should do, but customization usually winds up doubling or tripling support costs. In other words, Microsoft has learned to not do this.
That's what Microsoft should do, but customization usually winds up doubling or tripling support costs. In other words, Microsoft has learned to not do this.
Hagrid
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2006
- Messages
- 9,155
Isn't that why they spy on you? So they can find out what you like?
There's a big difference between a company that makes software to learn everything about you and then monetizing that information for their profit, and a company that develops software that is designed to learn a lot of information about you to be used for your convenience (but will keep that data local and in your control.)
Can't be an issue with my install when it happens across multiple machines not tied down to corporate networks but owned by the average Windows user that I work on daily...
GoldenTiger
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2004
- Messages
- 28,664
Assuming you're being truthful. This seems too out of the ordinary to not set off my skepticism.
I'd love to know who the latter is, because it sure isn't MS if that's the implication.
I'd add that there's also a big difference between a company that is upfront that the data collected by their free software and services are for advertising and monetization, and a company that lies about their motivations - trying to collect just as much personal information but claiming it's for the customer's "security", then keeping those thousands of datapoints hidden inside an encrypted stream with a pat on the head "trust us, and sorry but we can't give you an off switch", nevermind in paid retail software.
BigData is a multi-billion dollar business, every company is in this gold rush and they're all scum from the customer's point of view, but certain ones should stop pissing on our backs and then having their PR dept's tell us it's raining.
Last edited:
Tengis
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2003
- Messages
- 5,879
I didnt read all the comments... too many people complaining.
I cant even begin to understand how people dislike the current Windows 10 start menu. It works. Its not a reason to hate an operating system. I havent even really "USED" the start menu in literal years... 999/1000 I will hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of what I want, and then hit enter. I can do it faster then you can even reach over to grab your mouse and slide it down.
I work with quite a few people that "hate Windows 10" for some of the reasons posted here... and then I tell them to right click the start button and every single one of their woes is instantly debunked. Some guy on the first page was complaining about access to device manager, etc.... how about you right click the start bar.
I cant even begin to understand how people dislike the current Windows 10 start menu. It works. Its not a reason to hate an operating system. I havent even really "USED" the start menu in literal years... 999/1000 I will hit the Windows key, type the first three letters of what I want, and then hit enter. I can do it faster then you can even reach over to grab your mouse and slide it down.
I work with quite a few people that "hate Windows 10" for some of the reasons posted here... and then I tell them to right click the start button and every single one of their woes is instantly debunked. Some guy on the first page was complaining about access to device manager, etc.... how about you right click the start bar.
Hagrid
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2006
- Messages
- 9,155
Well since you like it, everybody else should. Ok!
Tengis
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2003
- Messages
- 5,879
Theres literally nothing to dislike. Its a box with things you click. Its always been a box with things you click. You can access features more efficiently via the start menu then any previous version of Windows. Its like people want to complain just for the sake of complaining because sCrEw MiCro$oFt LOLZ.
I just checked every Windows 10 computer in my house. Not a single one has a live tile for anything and Ive never even modified any of the default tiles for any program.
Hagrid
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2006
- Messages
- 9,155
There isn't? Well since you said so everybody in the world should follow you.......
Reasons were already stated. You gave your opinion. They didn't match. It's ok.
Tengis
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2003
- Messages
- 5,879
Skimming through this thread, the vast majority of woes are corrected by right clicking the start menu. There are more options at your fingertips via right clicking the start menu then there ever were in a single click.
Ive sat there watching programming prodigies or 20 year veterans of various IT fields complain about Windows 10 (like everyone does) because they cant do something quickly anymore like some of the woes in this thread. "Hey, let me see the mouse bro.... -right clicks-....". Unanimous "holy crap thats awesome" comments because they didnt know how to use the start menu.
Factum
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2014
- Messages
- 2,455
Who uses the start menu anymore?
Press the WINKEY, start typing the name you want to start...simple as that.
Press the WINKEY, start typing the name you want to start...simple as that.
Hagrid
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2006
- Messages
- 9,155
I just use classic shell and have shortcuts on the desktop. I then used another program to disable some of the bloat/malware.
Makes it pretty nice for me.