Why Windows Needs A Start Menu

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heatlesssun said:
The thing is that while there are a lot of people that don't like the Start Screen, there are plenty of people that are fine with it or don't really care one way or the other. I think the Start Screen works well as an app launcher and I do use a number of apps with live tiles, so I get a lot of information from the Start Screen. I have a button assigned on my mouse to open up the Start Screen and it's actually a pretty fast way to launch commonly used apps for me, especially on a multiple monitor system.

But yes, Microsoft has no choice but to bring back the Start Menu for the many that are demanding it. Even so, the capabilities of Start Screen still need to be there as an option even for KBM users that who will want to go with the Start Screen.
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Try reading the comments from the general public on non-Microsoft loving sites. Pretty funny stuff. An overwhelming majority of the public absolutely hates it. 90+% from what I've seen, I'd say.
 
timta2 said:
Try reading the comments from the general public on non-Microsoft loving sites. Pretty funny stuff. An overwhelming majority of the public absolutely hates it. 90+% from what I've seen, I'd say.
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No, the overwhelming majority are those who like to get on the bandwagon as steeple. After all, with most of the misinformation spread about, that is not surprising.
 
SparkedFire said:
Agreed. Microsoft has a good design, but apparently people can't grasp it.
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Even if that was true about people, then it would be a bad design.

People don't want to grasp it. They developed 'muscle memory' around a start menu. The Start Screen brought nothing, nada, zero other than it if you learned it, you might buy a windows phone or tablet. And being manipulated into buying something is not considered a plus by most users.
 
Windows 8 = Windows ME

:confused:

Personally, in a work environment of mixed computers, nobody likes 8 at my work locations, and I can really not care about 8 myself.

We install Classic Shell all the time to make 8 work better.
 
TheRapture said:
Windows 8 = Windows ME
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No, even I have to disagree with that statement.
Windows 8 might have a ridiculous GUI, but the back-end is very stable.

Windows ME was a nightmare, front to back.
If Microsoft could have just given Windows 8 some GUI options out of the box, it would have avoided 99.9% of all of the flack that it's been given.

Classic shell can easily remedy this for those who want the classic GUI, but again, this is a 3rd party option.
 
schizrade said:
People RAGED about windows XP and their beloved start menu changing from windows 98/2000.
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No, that wasn't what people raged about, and the "rage" was pretty minimal as I remember it.

The Luna interface got lots of ridicule, and early on compatibility was still a problem as device makers were shifting focus to 2000/XP drivers, and some problematic software was updated for XP.

I remember a few idiots complaining about the start menu, but it was never a big deal like the stupid start screen is on Win8.
 
jpm100 said:
Even if that was true about people, then it would be a bad design.

People don't want to grasp it. They developed 'muscle memory' around a start menu. The Start Screen brought nothing, nada, zero other than it if you learned it, you might buy a windows phone or tablet. And being manipulated into buying something is not considered a plus by most users.
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Yup. Microsoft had this grand idea that by forcing the start screen on everyone they would all run out and buy more Windows devices. Then they then ignored tons of feedback, removed the start menu, and tried to force the idea even more, which obviously did not end well.

Additionally, the XBOX version is entirely filled with ads and I'm sure Microsoft plans on doing the exact same thing to every other device with the metro interface in time. Bing is already built into Windows search, sending every search query back to the mothership and spying on users. Who the hell wants web search results when they are trying to find a program or file? No one does but Microsoft will force this and more ads on users as well.
 
I love the huge buttons on the start screen. I installed Start Is Back on my parents computer (while they were okay with the start screen, they said they were more used to the start menu), and I used it for a bit, and I actually missed the start screen. Anyways, I just hope I can use the Start Screen on W9. Works fine for power users, just as well if not better then the Start Menu (which has never been great for power users, you guys are full of shit). Besides, what the hell is a power user anyway?
 
zamardii12 said:
Exactly what features did they take away in Windows 8?
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Off the top of my head, auxiliary error codes on crashes, the ability to share wifi info on a flash drive, chkdsk only displays a progress bar (some of us like to know what's going on), backup/restore is neutered now and shadow copy has gone.

Also, when I tried 8, it didn't have a unified search function, I had to click whether I wanted a file or an 'app'(ugh). That makes 2 seconds of super->type->enter into 4 seconds of super->type->click(takes time moving my hand from the keyboard to mouse). I suppose I could have gotten used to that one, but no shadow copy is a big frown from me.
 
I think that the need for a Start Menu is mostly because people are very traditional and don't cope well with change.

The new interface works well for people who are quick/intuitive learners, or people who haven't built up years of memories/experience on the old interface. I've seen the difference, people who are fresh to it learn it a lot faster.

I was around back when Windows 95 came out, and a lot of people hated it because it used the Start Menu rather than Program Manager. There was actually a configuration file that allowed you to change the default shell back to progman.exe well into Windows XP's life cycle. It was even included with Windows up to that point.

Comparing Program Manager, the Start menu, and Metro, I actually like Metro the best. It seems the most intuitive and functional, and was easier to pick up or configure than the other two. It also seems to embody the best elements of both interfaces.

I do understand, however, that retraining people is expensive and that people are creatures of habit. There are good arguments against the new interface, but they're because of human nature and not an inherent flaw in the design.

Computers aren't new anymore, they've been around for decades and people have a long list of expectations. It's not reasonable or desirable to innovate or shake things up anymore in the PC space. Things are beginning to ossify here, just as they have in many past industries.
 
FM 3370 said:
I really only use the start menu for the "run" command. Funny thing is I use Windows 8.1 and all previous versions(7, XP, 2000, 98) like I've used Windows 3.1. I put my most used programs on the desktop (maybe 10 icons) and put lesser used shortcuts in a folder(like the 3.1 Program Manager) on the desktop. Also use quick launch but again those are almost like desktop icons to me.
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Win+R

Could do that since the stone ages
 
chockomonkey said:
Exactly. It's not so much that it's a bad interface, simply no one asked for it.

2. The removal of frequently used items list.
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Who needs that? You have a whole taskbar, pin things to it dammit. I don't get where people have 3-4 things pinned, yet a million things on the desktop or start menu. Microsoft revolutionized the taskbar to be a 2-in one task switching / opening tool... use it.
 
BryanSTG said:
Yup. Microsoft had this grand idea that by forcing the start screen on everyone they would all run out and buy more Windows devices. Then they then ignored tons of feedback, removed the start menu, and tried to force the idea even more, which obviously did not end well.

Additionally, the XBOX version is entirely filled with ads and I'm sure Microsoft plans on doing the exact same thing to every other device with the metro interface in time. Bing is already built into Windows search, sending every search query back to the mothership and spying on users. Who the hell wants web search results when they are trying to find a program or file? No one does but Microsoft will force this and more ads on users as well.
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FUD much? Misinformation much? Full of ads? LOL :rolleyes: In fact, I looked at my Xbox one interface when you said that and there were no ads. Heck, even my 360 interface has very few ads and they are properly targeted.
 
OmegaJimes said:
Off the top of my head, auxiliary error codes on crashes, the ability to share wifi info on a flash drive, chkdsk only displays a progress bar (some of us like to know what's going on), backup/restore is neutered now and shadow copy has gone.

Also, when I tried 8, it didn't have a unified search function, I had to click whether I wanted a file or an 'app'(ugh). That makes 2 seconds of super->type->enter into 4 seconds of super->type->click(takes time moving my hand from the keyboard to mouse). I suppose I could have gotten used to that one, but no shadow copy is a big frown from me.
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Those codes still appear from what I've seen. Where don't they for you?

You can still run chkdsk from the command prompt if you want to see what's going on. It was only a progress bar on 7/vista/xp too.

Backup/restore seems pretty much the same?

Shadow copy is called "File History" now.
 
Wow..the fact that people are still defending this after the market has spoke and even MS has admitted it was a failure blows my mind. Let It Go...

I interact with a lot of people when it comes to PC's, this is my job after all. Honestly the number of people I have ever ran into outside of these forums who actually like Win 8's UI? Zero. I have Never once run into a single person in thousands of people who actually liked it. Plenty who were indifferent or tolerated it, but never one who actually said they Prefer it. Only ones I have ever seen praising Win 8's UI are the half dozen or so on this forum. Either way it is looking more and more likely that we will get what we want in Win 9, Choice. The choice to choose the Start screen for those who like it, and the choice to choose Aero and a normal start menu for those who do not. So long as that happens, I really don't see any reason to continue this stupid argument. Win 8's UI Was a Failure..Period. There is no arguing that fact. If it wasn't a complete and utter failure MS sure as hell wouldn't be doing a complete 180.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Wow..the fact that people are still defending this after the market has spoke and even MS has admitted it was a failure blows my mind. Let It Go...

I interact with a lot of people when it comes to PC's, this is my job after all. Honestly the number of people I have ever ran into outside of these forums who actually like Win 8's UI? Zero. I have Never once run into a single person in thousands of people who actually liked it. Plenty who were indifferent or tolerated it, but never one who actually said they Prefer it. Only ones I have ever seen praising Win 8's UI are the half dozen or so on this forum. Either way it is looking more and more likely that we will get what we want in Win 9, Choice. The choice to choose the Start screen for those who like it, and the choice to choose Aero and a normal start menu for those who do not. So long as that happens, I really don't see any reason to continue this stupid argument. Win 8's UI Was a Failure..Period. There is no arguing that fact. If it wasn't a complete and utter failure MS sure as hell wouldn't be doing a complete 180.
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They are not doing a complete 180 but you go ahead and keep painting it they way you want. :rolleyes: Aero glass from what I can tell is gone for good. However, the Aero desktop has not gone anywhere at all, it is still there in Windows 8 / 8.1. The start menu exactly as it was in most likely not coming back either.

Why should I follow the sheeple? When something works well, I say as much regardless of your opinion. I basically let customers know that it is easy to use and after 5 minutes of showing them, they are surprised it is not a big of deal as they were lead to believe. The market follows what others think for the most part.
 
ManofGod said:
They are not doing a complete 180 but you go ahead and keep painting it they way you want. :rolleyes: Aero glass from what I can tell is gone for good. However, the Aero desktop has not gone anywhere at all, it is still there in Windows 8 / 8.1. The start menu exactly as it was in most likely not coming back either.

Why should I follow the sheeple? When something works well, I say as much regardless of your opinion. I basically let customers know that it is easy to use and after 5 minutes of showing them, they are surprised it is not a big of deal as they were lead to believe. The market follows what others think for the most part.
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Basically, I do not force my opinion of something down the customers throat like some here clearly seem to do. If they want to use 7, that is what they use. If they have no issues with 8, that is what they use. It is the way things are.
 
athenian200 said:
I think that the need for a Start Menu is mostly because people are very traditional and don't cope well with change.
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I find it interesting that users are always to blame. Never the designer or those who try to force change.(versus giving users the choice) In the end there was little reason not to make metro optional in windows 8. It would allow users to transition at their own pace. Add a few fun metro games and people would use the new ui, but it would be their choice when...(I strongly suggested a tablet or phone emulator) It would also allow users to use their computers how they personally see fit.

Personally I do not dislike metro, but I see little reason for it to be a forced change for desktop users.
 
Ponder said:
I find it interesting that users are always to blame. Never the designer or those who try to force change.(versus giving users the choice) In the end there was little reason not to make metro optional in windows 8. It would allow users to transition at their own pace. Add a few fun metro games and people would use the new ui, but it would be their choice when...(I strongly suggested a tablet or phone emulator) It would also allow users to use their computers how they personally see fit.

Personally I do not dislike metro, but I see little reason for it to be a forced change for desktop users.
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That is a valid point. Microsoft actually did continue including Program Manager with Windows for many years after introducing the Start Menu.

By the same token, there should have been the same legacy support for the Start Menu when Windows 8 came out.

I do think that Metro has plenty of valid merits as an interface, but that people's opinions will be colored by the fact that it was forced on them when they were used to something else.

I never said that users shouldn't be given a choice, I just think that many people will see it as bad just because it's a change, rather than because there's something inherently wrong with it.
 
dali71 said:
I use Stardock Start8 (never tried freeware start menu replacement tools). The only time I go into Metro is for Netflix and Skype.
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Netflix is one of the main reasons I feel like going through the pain of installing a new OS (nothing to do with it being 8, upgrades just take more time than I have right now). I want 5.1 and 7 doesn't provide it...though maybe the XBMC plugin does...haven't tried that.
 
KazeoHin said:
Personally, I prefer the start menu because I have to move my mouse a smaller distance to click on the program I want.

Is there any reason M$ can't just have the start menu (which only takes up like 15% of modern HD screens) and the start SCREEN appear at the same time? Like, the start screen has a lower-left-hand menu resembling the old start menu that can be set minimised like a window if the user wants more tile space. I don't think anyone would have complained about that... Because you press start, the screen blurs and the tiles swipe from the right, the start menu swipes from the lower-left. Press start again to go back to desktop.
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The thing is that the start menu isn't designed for you to point/click your way to a program (though I did that with Vista, because I didn't know any better). You're just supposed to type what you want. Same thing with Control Panel. if you're clicking on icons, you're probably doing it wrong (or at in a less efficient way).

There are times you need to click, but IME, it's only for vertical applications that are typically not very well written and never written to any common windows standards.
 
I do think that Metro has plenty of valid merits as an interface
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On tablets and touch devices I agree however on a touch free desktop I totally fail to see how this is an improvement at all.
 
The thing is that the start menu isn't designed for you to point/click your way to a program (though I did that with Vista, because I didn't know any better). You're just supposed to type what you want. Same thing with Control Panel. if you're clicking on icons, you're probably doing it wrong (or at in a less efficient way).
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I usually do a bit of both. However I am a programmer and I have several hundred applications installed each with several items in their menu and dozens of these items will have the same exact name in the search. One reason for this is I have to test multiple versions of applications. Not all of these will have the version # in the name.
 
That is a valid point. Microsoft actually did continue including Program Manager with Windows for many years after introducing the Start Menu.
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I remember using Norton Desktop for a long time before the start menu appeared. I think windows NT 3.5 did not support that.
 
Windows doesn't need a start menu. Microsoft screwed the pooch with the introduction of windows 8, and not even including something as necessary as a simple tutorial. That's why even through 8.1, which addresses virtually all of the initial gripes of 8, reception still suffers.

I like 8.1. A lot. More than 7. On 7 I was using the functionality of the start menu less and less, and frankly only used it to access a recently-installed program. But then I just hit the start button, then started typing whatever it was I was looking for. That's virtually identical to how windows 8.1 functions.

That being said, I still see no reason to not at least enable the option of having a start menu. MS screwed up so many things with windows 8, desktop vs. tablet, RT vs. full, etc. This was just another one of those fuck-ups.

Windows 8 is great. Boot up and function is much faster than previous windows iterations, and so many great things are implemented and integrated that easily won me over from 7 in less than a week. I don't really care about tiles, even on a touch and/or tablet. If I install a 'desktop' OS, I usually use the desktop interface. But you can easily enough boot straight to the desktop, and never have to see tiles if you don't want to.
 
Windows doesn't need a start menu. Microsoft screwed the pooch with the introduction of windows 8, and not even including something as necessary as a simple tutorial. That's why even through 8.1, which addresses virtually all of the initial gripes of 8, reception still suffers.
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I disagree, the start button added insult to injury for those who did not like the Start Screen.
 
Staples said:
The Start Screen is fine for me. People hate change and to that effect, people will bitch about the new start menu because it looks different than in Win 7.

And you don't have to press Win + S, the Win key brings up the start screen from which any typing becomes a search.
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I actually embrace changes as long as it makes sense. Change for change sake on the other hand......

I disliked the start screen vs menu for two reasons.

1. It was visually jarring. There is no reason for a quick search to be full screen. Especially if it disrupts my workflow.

2. I'm the type of person that will forget the first 3 digits of a phone number by the time the 6th number is read. When I am using the quick search I often need to reference something on the screen as I am typing. A full screen start menu isn't conducive to that. It literally makes the feature less useful to me than just a popup start menu.

A full screen start menu brought zero benefits over the traditional start menu. The only function the change served was to attempt to move people into the metro environment over the traditional desktop. It should be pretty clear by now that desktop users just aren't interested in limited full screen apps over traditional windows applications.
 
As long as Microsoft allows you to modify your experience I don't care either way. I personally use Classic Shell on Windows 8 installs. When users prompt me for computer purchasing advice I tell them give Windows 8 Metro interface a shot after watching some youtube tutorials and if you still don't like it install Classic Shell. I personally don't like pinning and combined task so I disable those and bring back good old quick launch for my frequently used programs. Microsoft is just trying to keep up with Apple's Fisher Price interface that has dumbed down UI. I guess it can be good and bad to have such a simple interface but it doesn't impress me and I couldn't reach the same level of efficiency with it. I really hate all the websites that are tabletizing their interfaces and providing less information and capability but more fluff.
 
Parja said:
This.

In 7, I use the Window key and start typing what I'm looking for all the time. Slightly annoying that I have to use Win+S in Windows 8 to do the same thing.
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Uh, no you can hit the windows key and start typing in window 8 to....
 
Studies show that hotkey windows+<program name> is the #1 fastest way to work, the metro start screen being 2nd and start menu being 3rd.

Studies also show people don't know shit about their computer and feel the need to buy an extra screen for "more apps" because they can't simply swipe their desktop to get to a new page.
 
Nothing is faster for finding EVERY choice than a right mouse movement cascading menu structure like that found in the old Windows XP start menu. No extra mouse clicks, not much mouse movement, it simply is the best implementation. The idea of pinning items is not one welcomed for computers setup for specific functions which you want ALL resources devoted to that (nothing working in the background). Specialized users were/are rightly bitching because they killed the best workflow method so that they can pass you through their app store like what Disney does at the end of their rides making you exit through a gift shop. No thanks to forced sales, no thanks to backwards steps, I'll just use Windows 7 with a third party classic XP start menu and third party folder app to get back those functions too (it's called Windows for a reason) until you get your act together my wallet is staying closed.
 
I'm sorry but if you have a hard time with Windows 8 than you are stupid. I have a non-touch Windows 8 workstation and I can do anything as fast as in Windows 7. I taught a bunch of blue-haired ladies how to use Windows 8 with their sewing programs and it took all of 15 minutes.
 
Since when is a left mouse click in the typing field and then typing anything faster than the old XP start menu one left click on the Start button - move your mouse slightly up-down/to the right and another left click on the item you want? It's not a matter of not being able to use Windows 8 or get into the nut's and bolts of it, it's not having that excellent work method available even as an option in Windows 8. That's where the stupidity is (or not understanding it takes longer to type). Specialized computers dealing in real time operations run faster with indexing turned off by the way too.
 
Ponder said:
I find it interesting that users are always to blame. Never the designer or those who try to force change.(versus giving users the choice) In the end there was little reason not to make metro optional in windows 8. It would allow users to transition at their own pace. Add a few fun metro games and people would use the new ui, but it would be their choice when...(I strongly suggested a tablet or phone emulator) It would also allow users to use their computers how they personally see fit.

Personally I do not dislike metro, but I see little reason for it to be a forced change for desktop users.
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I find if interesting that when anyone likes/agrees with a change that others dont accept their the naive ones, not just that they can adapt to what is functionally every bit as good as if not better than a previous solution
 
ManofGod said:
They are not doing a complete 180 but you go ahead and keep painting it they way you want. :rolleyes: Aero glass from what I can tell is gone for good. However, the Aero desktop has not gone anywhere at all, it is still there in Windows 8 / 8.1. The start menu exactly as it was in most likely not coming back either.

Why should I follow the sheeple? When something works well, I say as much regardless of your opinion. I basically let customers know that it is easy to use and after 5 minutes of showing them, they are surprised it is not a big of deal as they were lead to believe. The market follows what others think for the most part.
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Actually they are, they tried to get rid of the start menu completely and are bringing it back. As to what form? Well that is rumor and speculation at this point. You know the irony of you calling people sheeple is pretty rich.

ManofGod said:
Basically, I do not force my opinion of something down the customers throat like some here clearly seem to do. If they want to use 7, that is what they use. If they have no issues with 8, that is what they use. It is the way things are.
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That's funny, you have spent the last 2 years trying to shove the idea that everyone who hates metro is wrong down everyone's throats. While those of us for the most part opposed have simply been asking for CHOICE. I know you struggle with the concept of having free will and choice and all, but some of us actually like it. I'll say this again..Consumers Want Choice..Not something crammed down their throat. The reason Metro failed is because MS tried to cram it down our throats with no choice in the matter. They have realized that was a poor idea and have been making strides to correcting that..Continuing to argue against that just makes you look like a tool.
 
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