Why Windows Needs A Start Menu

[DeathFromBelow]

sure there are some that just don't grasp it, but thats the same with anything out there.

i think the big problem is that people didn't want the changes MS made. it comes down to listening to your customer, which they clearly did not do.

I remember some show on TechTV years ago where an industrial designer was talking about this problem with product development. He gave an example of a toothpaste manufacturer rolling out an 'easy open' cap that popped open by pulling, but sealed better than simpler pop-open designs. The problem was that it still looked like a long screw top cap, but if you twisted it wouldn't budge. You could argue that the new design was technically superior, but opening toothpaste is trivial to begin with. In the end the company ended up with a bunch of angry customers, lots of returns, and a lot of money wasted.

You have to make the product your customers want. Microsoft could argue that the new UI is more flexible and I'm sure they'd love it if everyone used their App store, but its not what people want.

Of course, I'd go a bit further and say that sticking a phone interface on desktop PCs is a fucking stupid idea and they were

 

[butterfliesrpretty]

I have two options. Opening a start menu the size of a post card in the bottom of the screen and then navigating through endless subfolders or I can open a start menu that spans the entire screen and has everything laid out in plain view right off the bat.

One week of using it sporadically was all it took to get used to and navigate with the same speed and ease as Windows 7. People need to quick crying about change.

Screw that it's not more efficient period. It was made to be like a damn tablet and phone so that people would be so used to one format they wouldn't use anything else. Why is that so hard to see.

I'm down for os ui changes... when they make sense and are not made with the intention of trying to dominate multiple markets with no concern for productivity, and yes I have used windows 8 quite a bit.

 

[Dr.Diablo]

This.

In 7, I use the Window key and start typing what I'm looking for all the time. Slightly annoying that I have to use Win+S in Windows 8 to do the same thing.

After you click start you can start typing like 7

 

[DeathFromBelow]

They were idiots for ever thinking a mobile UI would work on the desktop or that Metro apps would ever stand a chance. Its just like nobody ever bothered writing O/S 2 software. Is there nobody left at Microsoft who remembers that?

 

[Ur_Mom]

You have to make the product your customers want. Microsoft could argue that the new UI is more flexible and I'm sure they'd love it if everyone used their App store, but its not what people want.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter if it's better, more efficient or any of the reasons that people dislike it (even if it is one of those that hate change). If the customers don't like it, it's a failure. Could be a device that turns lead into gold. If the people don't like it, and you're trying to make money - you lose. You're not making money....

 

[Draxanoth]

I have two options. Opening a start menu the size of a post card in the bottom of the screen and then navigating through endless subfolders or I can open a start menu that spans the entire screen and has everything laid out in plain view right off the bat.

One week of using it sporadically was all it took to get used to and navigate with the same speed and ease as Windows 7. People need to quick crying about change.

Change for the sake of change is stupid. I've yet to see anyone give any solid reasons for how the start screen improves on anything for the desktop other than amusing children who liked "AOL Kids" and assisting the legally blind. It's another desktop covered in icons, why should we be impressed? Because Microsoft has successfully forced all interfaces to be the same? Maybe we should revolutionize those cars they have their sync software in and replace steering wheels with Metro while we're at it; since clearly workflow is irrelevant to GUI uniformity.

The start menu was unintrusive and arranged in a logical manner that half intelligent people could navigate without instruction, and the network management options made it extremely easy to customize for thousands of people without having to publish 50 different policies to address each user group.

Seriously all they had to do was leave it in as an option, start screen, start menu, start menu with flyout start screen stuff, and everybody would have been happy. Does anyone with an actual network like the new menu system or is it just armchair admins who's greatest worry is what is on steam-sale today?

 

[nilepez]

Yes, I know you can search for applications, files, and settings from the Start screen simply by typing their name. And yes, that works fine in certain circumstances. But if you don't know the exact name of the item you seek, you still can run into obstacles trying to track it down.

I'm using 7, but has the search quit working in 8? I never ever click for apps. If I don't know enough to find it by searching, then I'm probably better off searching explorer for the program. No place is this more apparent than when searching for something in Control panel.

So is he saying that in 8 if you search for "windows update" it won't find it unless you search from a control panel group?

 

[BryanSTG]

Part of Microsoft's problem is they are trying to force people to search for everything in Windows instead of organizing it and knowing where things are. Where the hell is the advanced search gui? I realize that you can refine you search but the entire search feature has been dumbed down to cater to those people who type full sentence search queries into Google and don't know where their files/documents are actually located.

Not everyone is clueless and wants their entire hard drive indexed; some of us actually put icons and files in logical places, hence the start menu. IMO they need to stop trying to make the omni-search box the main way to launch everything (get rid of any sort of shitty Bing integration too, which is really just spyware with ads) and focus more on logically organizing features, not hiding or removing them.

 

[VladDracule]

Part of Microsoft's problem is they are trying to force people to search for everything in Windows instead of organizing it and knowing where things are. Where the hell is the advanced search gui? I realize that you can refine you search but the entire search feature has been dumbed down to cater to those people who type full sentence search queries into Google and don't know where their files/documents are actually located.

Not everyone is clueless and wants their entire hard drive indexed; some of us actually put icons and files in logical places, hence the start menu. IMO they need to stop trying to make the omni-search box the main way to launch everything (get rid of any sort of shitty Bing integration too, which is really just spyware with ads) and focus more on logically organizing features, not hiding or removing them.

How exactly does that differ from putting icons in metro? Or just using explorer to find your files/icons that you so strategically placed?

 

[Budzman]

Every time I accidentally end up in metro I wanna start punching stuff. I can't stand it.

 

[BryanSTG]

How exactly does that differ from putting icons in metro? Or just using explorer to find your files/icons that you so strategically placed?

Have you not used the Metro gui? Microsoft went out of their way to hide as much as possible, catering to idiots, and training users to search for everything. Another example: how many users (even on this forum) had to look up how to shut down Windows because Microsoft stupidly hid the power button?

My point is that Microsoft needs to stop forcing the omni-search box as the main way to accomplish anything in Windows. It should be used if you can't find what you want or simply forgot where it is located. Once they realize this and restore the start menu Windows will suck much less.

 

[VladDracule]

Have you not used the Metro gui? Microsoft went out of their way to hide as much as possible, catering to idiots, and training users to search for everything. Another example: how many users (even on this forum) had to look up how to shut down Windows because Microsoft stupidly hid the power button?

My point is that Microsoft needs to stop forcing the omni-search box as the main way to accomplish anything in Windows. It should be used if you can't find what you want or simply forgot where it is located. Once they realize this and restore the start menu Windows will suck much less.

because pinning isnt a thing you can use to "pin" your most common applications amiright?

File explorer functions the exact same way it did in win 7, shortcuts work the exact same way as they did in 7. The same functionality is there, you just dont know how to use it with a different presentation

 

[VladDracule]

And yes, I have used metro. I've now had 3 computers with Windows 8, a Lenovo Yoga (1st edition, now sold to a co worker) My Desktop in my sig, and a Surface Pro 3

 

[zero2dash]

Every time I accidentally end up in metro I wanna start punching stuff. I can't stand it.

This is my issue with 8 as well.
The segmented experience.
Half the time you end up in Metro-driven screens, the other half of the time you're in the old Explorer with things cutesy "hidden" for no reason (probably because they want you to trudge through the Metro screens to find the same end result, as if to beat you with a stick until you submit to their newfangled ways around).

Eat it with that, MS. Just eat it.

8 will be swept under the rug as quickly as possible just like Vista before it. 9 will be touted as the savior of the masses, and maybe people will eat it up....but I have no plans on leaving 7, even after EOL.

 

[BryanSTG]

because pinning isnt a thing you can use to "pin" your most common applications amiright?

File explorer functions the exact same way it did in win 7, shortcuts work the exact same way as they did in 7. The same functionality is there, you just dont know how to use it with a different presentation

I know how to use all versions of Windows just fine. You, however, seem to be missing my point or just ignoring it purposely and acting dense.

I'm focusing on the the omni-search box and the hiding of files/folders and logical organization of Windows. By removing the start menu Microsoft is catering to those people who don't know where anything is located, are scared of files/folders in the OS, and basically making search the solution to their problem. This doesn't solve anything though, it just caters to stupidity.

 

[VladDracule]

I know how to use all versions of Windows just fine. You, however, seem to be missing my point or just ignoring it purposely and acting dense.

I'm focusing on the the omni-search box and the hiding of files/folders and logical organization of Windows. By removing the start menu Microsoft is catering to those people who don't know where anything is located, are scared of files/folders in the OS, and basically making search the solution to their problem. This doesn't solve anything though, it just caters to stupidity.

How exactly is a folder structure in the start menu faster than searching? Even in win7 unless you very very deliberately structure your start menu it becomes cluttered to the point that it isn't that practical. Using a launcher or the unified search of windows 7 is faster and more practical than the file system in windows. Its much easier to press windows and type "exc" to find excel than it is to press start, scroll to the microsoft office folder, and launch excel

 

[Inu]

How exactly is a folder structure in the start menu faster than searching? Even in win7 unless you very very deliberately structure your start menu it becomes cluttered to the point that it isn't that practical. Using a launcher or the unified search of windows 7 is faster and more practical than the file system in windows. Its much easier to press windows and type "exc" to find excel than it is to press start, scroll to the microsoft office folder, and launch excel

This, so much.

I don't think Microsoft realizes how huge of a feature this is exactly. Is it strangely archaic feeling and non-tablet friendly? Yes. But is is quicker 99 / 100 times then scrolling through buttons, hell yes.

I've never seen them advertise this feature. I discovered it shortly in the beta. But it completely changes my entire desktop experience.

Maybe if my keystrokes caused colored puffs of smoke to come out of my computer and made rhythmic tones it may appease the "I WANT TO HAVE PRETTY STUFFS" crowd. Which is the minority.

 

[Megalith]

I have an idea. Why don't they change the Start button behavior so that when you click on it, the only thing that comes up is an omnibox. You just type what program you want to open and then hit enter.

 

[VladDracule]

I have an idea. Why don't they change the Start button behavior so that when you click on it, the only thing that comes up is an omnibox. You just type what program you want to open and then hit enter.

or you can press windows which is a keypress and faster than taking your hand off the keyboard, moving the mouse to the corner of the screen, clicking start, putting your hand back on the keyboard and then typing?

 

[BryanSTG]

How exactly is a folder structure in the start menu faster than searching? Even in win7 unless you very very deliberately structure your start menu it becomes cluttered to the point that it isn't that practical. Using a launcher or the unified search of windows 7 is faster and more practical than the file system in windows. Its much easier to press windows and type "exc" to find excel than it is to press start, scroll to the microsoft office folder, and launch excel

This is a perfect example of Microsoft's problem. They think search is a replacement for logical organization and file/folder hierarchy; well it isn't.

Instead they should ask themselves why and how the start menu became so cluttered in the first place, and how to make it more organized, less cluttered and easier to use while retaining its organization aspect. Instead they decided to completely remove its core feature (organization), dumb it down, and replace it with a search box that relies on indexing your entire hard drive.

As a result of ignoring and avoiding the problem, they created Windows 8.x, which everyone hates except you and a few others.

 

[zamardii12]

No, because that's not the only problem.

The Win8 UI is ugly, ALL CAPS menus are beyond hideous and dumbing down the OS by removing functionality isn't helping anyone. MS still has the mistaken belief it can merge a casual use tablet OS and productivity oriented desktop OS.

Exactly what features did they take away in Windows 8?

 

[Red Falcon]

I can't believe this battle is still going on.
This is like a thread from late 2012, only here we are, almost two years later.

Windows 8 is like the middle-eastern war of operating systems, it just keeps going and going and...
I don't ever remember Vista (or Office 2007) having this much flack, and that was a truly horrid OS.

Microsoft: If this many people are still upset, perhaps you should start listening to them. Just saying.

 

[VladDracule]

This is a perfect example of Microsoft's problem. They think search is a replacement for logical organization and file/folder hierarchy; well it isn't.

Instead they should ask themselves why and how the start menu became so cluttered in the first place, and how to make it more organized, less cluttered and easier to use while retaining its organization aspect. Instead they decided to completely remove its core feature (organization), dumb it down, and replace it with a search box that relies on indexing your entire hard drive.

As a result of ignoring and avoiding the problem, they created Windows 8.x, which everyone hates except you and a few others.

Except for me and everyone who has extensive experience and actually took the time to learn it you mean? And you still havent answered my question, the file explorer which is the true place for organization of icons/files is the exact same as it was in 7 so how is it so different? Your the one skirting around the issue. How is a file structure faster and more productive/functional than the search? Seriously? How is it?

Im fastest when i am using strictly command line, whether its editing/modifying files in VIM using its command line or if its OpenSuse linux command line. Your beating on an archaic system that is neither practical nor efficient.

You can control whats in your start menu just fine but that doesnt make it better or more organizationally sound. Your just trying to find a reason to scream foul because you still use the start menu as opposed to the much more practical/better designed launchers

 

[BryanSTG]

Except for me and everyone who has extensive experience and actually took the time to learn it you mean? And you still havent answered my question, the file explorer which is the true place for organization of icons/files is the exact same as it was in 7 so how is it so different? Your the one skirting around the issue. How is a file structure faster and more productive/functional than the search? Seriously? How is it?

Im fastest when i am using strictly command line, whether its editing/modifying files in VIM using its command line or if its OpenSuse linux command line. Your beating on an archaic system that is neither practical nor efficient.

You can control whats in your start menu just fine but that doesnt make it better or more organizationally sound. Your just trying to find a reason to scream foul because you still use the start menu as opposed to the much more practical/better designed launchers

If you don't know the difference between explorer and the start menu then perhaps you need to brush up on your computer skills. Why ask rhetorical questions?

As for searching for everything, it is a band-aid, and does not solve the problem. It is not faster 99% of the time since it requires users remove their hand from the mouse and actually know where keys are located (which most of them don't, have you ever seen regular users type).

Yes, I still use the start menu as does most of the world; that is the basis of this thread. Microsoft has finally admitted this too and is backtracking on their dumb design choices.

 

[VladDracule]

If you don't know the difference between explorer and the start menu then perhaps you need to brush up on your computer skills. Why ask rhetorical questions?

As for searching for everything, it is a band-aid, and does not solve the problem. It is not faster 99% of the time since it requires users remove their hand from the mouse and actually know where keys are located (which most of them don't, have you ever seen regular users type).

Yes, I still use the start menu as does most of the world; that is the basis of this thread. Microsoft has finally admitted this too and is backtracking on their dumb design choices.

Im not asking rhetorical questions im pointing out flat out boneheaded your conclusions are based on very little experience with the operating system in question. You dont know how to use it.

tell me something, if i create a folder on my desktop (which i can navigate to using file explorer) and inside that folder is just shortcuts to applications how is it any different than the start menu? Its exactly the same only its not inside of the start menu

 

[Trimlock]

I hope Microsoft continues to improve upon the Windows 8 idea. I like the changes and I like the way Microsoft is going with this.

Is it perfect? No. Is it so bad that your eye balls will rot out of its sockets and you'll develop carpal tunnel? No.

Many things about the OS is much better than Windows 7. I have 5 PC's, 2 needed new operating systems (XP and Vista) so I got them on Windows 8, the other 3 are Windows 7 and will be getting 9 when it drops.

 

[BryanSTG]

Im not asking rhetorical questions im pointing out flat out boneheaded your conclusions are based on very little experience with the operating system in question. You dont know how to use it.

tell me something, if i create a folder on my desktop (which i can navigate to using file explorer) and inside that folder is just shortcuts to applications how is it any different than the start menu? Its exactly the same only its not inside of the start menu

If you pin that folder then there is no difference. If you don't pin it, which you did not mention, then it is just another folder.

From your responses you seem to think you have a some sort of superior knowledge that I and the rest of us lack. However, you don't and it seems that you were suckered into using Windows 8.x and can't admit that it's entire design is a massive failure.

Just admit that Microsoft's start screen and searching for everything is not the way to design an OS gui. Microsoft has and they are paying for it dearly now.

 

[heatlesssun]

I hope Microsoft continues to improve upon the Windows 8 idea. I like the changes and I like the way Microsoft is going with this.

The overall idea of Windows 8 I think makes a lot of sense. The problem was in the execution. However things have improved for KBM users from 8.0 through 8.1 Update 1. If one is only using desktop apps, 8.1 Update 1 isn't dramatically different from 7. Yes, the full screen nature of the Start Screen, Search and PC Settings can throw people for a curve, but with 8.1 Update 1, all applications are now navigable through the task bar. That was a MAJOR improvement for KBM use.

 

[VladDracule]

If you pin that folder then there is no difference. If you don't pin it, which you did not mention, then it is just another folder.

From your responses you seem to think you have a some sort of superior knowledge that I and the rest of us lack. However, you don't and it seems that you were suckered into using Windows 8.x and can't admit that it's entire design is a massive failure.

Just admit that Microsoft's start screen and searching for everything is not the way to design an OS gui. Microsoft has and they are paying for it dearly now.

Your right! I didnt explain why, in a step by step process, searching is faster than using the folder structure of the start menu. And you absolutely 100% debunked it with a step by step procedure as to why a file structure is superior!

Your 100% accurate and are completely leaving some personal beef you have with metro out of the conversation! Most unbiased opinion ever is what youve been spouting.

 

[heatlesssun]

Just admit that Microsoft's start screen and searching for everything is not the way to design an OS gui. Microsoft has and they are paying for it dearly now.

The thing is that while there are a lot of people that don't like the Start Screen, there are plenty of people that are fine with it or don't really care one way or the other. I think the Start Screen works well as an app launcher and I do use a number of apps with live tiles, so I get a lot of information from the Start Screen. I have a button assigned on my mouse to open up the Start Screen and it's actually a pretty fast way to launch commonly used apps for me, especially on a multiple monitor system.

But yes, Microsoft has no choice but to bring back the Start Menu for the many that are demanding it. Even so, the capabilities of Start Screen still need to be there as an option even for KBM users that who will want to go with the Start Screen.

 

[DocFaustus]

You're putting words in my mouth. Where did I say anyone is stupid? I am simply amazed how smart people outright refuse to accept minor changes.

With a beautiful backhand like that, I bet you play tennis

 

[schizrade]

I can't believe this battle is still going on.
This is like a thread from late 2012, only here we are, almost two years later.

Windows 8 is like the middle-eastern war of operating systems, it just keeps going and going and...
I don't ever remember Vista (or Office 2007) having this much flack, and that was a truly horrid OS.

Microsoft: If this many people are still upset, perhaps you should start listening to them. Just saying.

People RAGED about windows XP and their beloved start menu changing from windows 98/2000.

Of course most people here don't remember that.

 

[Red Falcon]

People RAGED about windows XP and their beloved start menu changing from windows 98/2000.

Of course most people here don't remember that.

But it could be brought back to the old version, as that was still built-in.
This time around, it just doesn't exist, at least not without 3rd party add-ons.

 

[dali71]

I use Stardock Start8 (never tried freeware start menu replacement tools). The only time I go into Metro is for Netflix and Skype.

 

[ManofGod]

But it could be brought back to the old version, as that was still built-in.
This time around, it just doesn't exist, at least not without 3rd party add-ons.

Yet, it still did not stop people from raging about it anyways. Personally, I have been enjoying OS's without griping since Windows XP had come out and I have decided not to choose sides in a stupid battle that never ends.

I loved Windows Vista since SP1, 7 was good but they removed the ability to having things load into memory during startup and I have been using Windows 8 since the consumer preview. I enjoyed my Amiga, OS/2 Warp 3 and Windows 95, 98 and ME. I like Macs to and they work the same as everything else, I just cannot afford one since I prefer to build my own.

The Amiga OS will probably always be my personal favorite. True is, the only thing that annoys me is when someone tries to look down on me just because I decided to learn how the OS's work instead of bitching about it over and over and over......... It is part of my job to know how things actually work as they are.

 

[KazeoHin]

Personally, I prefer the start menu because I have to move my mouse a smaller distance to click on the program I want.

Is there any reason M$ can't just have the start menu (which only takes up like 15% of modern HD screens) and the start SCREEN appear at the same time? Like, the start screen has a lower-left-hand menu resembling the old start menu that can be set minimised like a window if the user wants more tile space. I don't think anyone would have complained about that... Because you press start, the screen blurs and the tiles swipe from the right, the start menu swipes from the lower-left. Press start again to go back to desktop.

 

[Manofsteel]

I say the start menu looks cool after some tweaking!

 

[Manofsteel]

^ Or the Metro menu.

 

[Red Falcon]

^ Or the Metro menu.

No no, it's called the Modern UI.
Have you not had your daily dose of Microsoft-brand Coolaid, today?

 

[erexx]

The Start Menu has been the Index to Windows for Years.
Without one its like trying to use a book without an Index or 52 pickup AOL style.
Who pushes out a touch screen OS to mostly Keyboard and Mouse computer users?