Waiting for Haswell?

I guess it could be a nice upgrade for my E4300, although I still have no idea how bad the USB3 bug is.

Oh, and I'm interested in undervolting for reaching stock, not overvolting and overclocking :)
 
I have no interest in paying $$$ for a new Haswell i7 chip and having to risk damaging it by delidding in order to fix intel's design flub...IF that's true.
 
c3k said:
I have no interest in paying $$$ for a new Haswell i7 chip and having to risk damaging it by delidding in order to fix intel's design flub...IF that's true.
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I'm 99% certain that if you want to see high overclocks (like my 3770K in sig) at any sort of reasonable temperatures, you will be forced the de-lid, just like Ivy..

All the facts seem to point toward it..The fact that most of the leaked results seem to all top out @ 4.4-4.5Ghz with temperatures through the roof, along with Intel confirming they are using the same TIM process seem to guarantee this..

I hope I am wrong..I WANT to be wrong, but..
 
ccityinstaller said:
I'm 99% certain that if you want to see high overclocks (like my 3770K in sig) at any sort of reasonable temperatures, you will be forced the de-lid, just like Ivy..

All the facts seem to point toward it..The fact that most of the leaked results seem to all top out @ 4.4-4.5Ghz with temperatures through the roof, along with Intel confirming they are using the same TIM process seem to guarantee this..

I hope I am wrong..I WANT to be wrong, but..
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Intel confirmed it? Well, it looks like delidding will be the only option if you want to keep the temps down. Pretty disappointing to be honest.
 
c3k said:
I have no interest in paying $$$ for a new Haswell i7 chip and having to risk damaging it by delidding in order to fix intel's design flub...IF that's true.
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It's not really fair to call it a "design flub" when their TIM choice causes high temperature at 50% overclocks.....
 
Zangmonkey said:
It's not really fair to call it a "design flub" when their TIM choice causes high temperature at 50% overclocks.....
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4.4-4.5 isn't really close to a 50% overclock. Base clock is 3.5, 4 core turbo is 3.7.

We're not even really looking at a 25% overclock there taking the turbo into account.
 
I remember when 25% overclock was something to be proud of.
 
tonyftw said:
Intel confirmed it? Well, it looks like delidding will be the only option if you want to keep the temps down. Pretty disappointing to be honest.
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It was confirmed a while back..Something along the lines that they were having a problem with the solder and the Tri-Gate process on 22nm..

The main issue that worries me with de-lidding Haswell is that Intel showed some slides showing several surface mounted components, not just a single raised die like Ivy..I mean as long as you are careful it should be fine, but what is the IHS is stepped (as in the main Die might be taller then the surface components)..

I don't really see this being the case as it would complicate getting things perfectly lined up in the assembly procedure, but this is Intel...If this were the case though it *COULD* possibly explain why we haven't seen a de-lidded version shown out in the wild..:confused::confused:
 
Vexerz said:
Just from personal experience of being in this hobby the last 15+ years...you will have buyer's remorse. IMO, avoid the forums for at least a few months after Haswell releases.
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With the reviews or news leaks and assumed pricing.. 229 vs at least 300+ (probably 349) for only 5-15% increase in performance. I don't think I'll be unhappy at all. Sure it's an EOL socket, but I'll most likely be keeping my 3770K for a few more years.
 
Zefram0911 said:
With the reviews or news leaks and assumed pricing.. 229 vs at least 300+ (probably 349) for only 5-15% increase in performance. I don't think I'll be unhappy at all. Sure it's an EOL socket, but I'll most likely be keeping my 3770K for a few more years.
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My q6600 has lasted me for almost 6 years. A 3770k would last me about that long, as well. For me, I don't care about the absolute latest tech. I want the -best- tech. If Haswell is just a 15% increase in performance for a 50% price increase, I'll pass. I'd rather pry the lid off a $229 cpu than try surgery on a $300-350 cpu. That's just me...
 
wonderfield said:
People believe everything should be a Celeron 300A.
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P4 2.4c pretty easily high 3.6

Celeron 566 hit 800something
lower end p3's did the same

My AMD 3800x2 hit 2.75-2.8

Thuban overclocked from what... 2.8 on the 1055t to 3.8 or so pretty regularly?
Bulldozer hasn't been a great overclocker.

I'm not sure wanting more than a 25% overclock is really some pie in the sky rare thing.
 
ccityinstaller said:
The main issue that worries me with de-lidding Haswell is that Intel showed some slides showing several surface mounted components, not just a single raised die like Ivy..I mean as long as you are careful it should be fine, but what is the IHS is stepped (as in the main Die might be taller then the surface components)..
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header_1.jpg
 
InternationalHat said:
P4 2.4c pretty easily high 3.6

Celeron 566 hit 800something
lower end p3's did the same

My AMD 3800x2 hit 2.75-2.8

Thuban overclocked from what... 2.8 on the 1055t to 3.8 or so pretty regularly?
Bulldozer hasn't been a great overclocker.

I'm not sure wanting more than a 25% overclock is really some pie in the sky rare thing.
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Don't forget the JIUHB 1700+ chips that could do 2.4ghz + and were only $40-50. ~70% overclock.... ahh, the good old days.
 
InternationalHat said:
P4 2.4c pretty easily high 3.6

Celeron 566 hit 800something
lower end p3's did the same

My AMD 3800x2 hit 2.75-2.8

Thuban overclocked from what... 2.8 on the 1055t to 3.8 or so pretty regularly?
Bulldozer hasn't been a great overclocker.

I'm not sure wanting more than a 25% overclock is really some pie in the sky rare thing.
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Because it is. The higher the clocks, the harder it is to OC. Even Intel with all it's resources hit a GHz wall with netburst. Not only is it harder now, but with CPU's today coming in at well above 3GHz stock, asking for >25% is asking for a lot more than on a 1.8GHz processor.
 
The ghz wall is there and all, but I'm not totally buying that. They just don't offer lower end parts that you can overclock because they don't make as much money on it.

Core unlocking etc was on the AMD side last gen, and now you've got what, 3? enthusiast chips from intel and locked multipliers/linked bus speeds on everything. They've pretty effectively cut off the low-mid level enthusiast range that was growing for a while there. Those $60-$150 that you could overclock the snot out of like the e5200 are gone. You can get one of those overpriced i3 chips, but what's the point.

SB was pretty nice, clarkdale and nehalem were a bunch of fun to overclock.

That said, the lower power use is nice and I'm sure the lower end parts will be awesome for mobile, HTPC etc. It's just that the whole segment of people who want to buy a cheap chip and overclock it to the ragged edge are definitely being pushed away by Intel.
 
InternationalHat said:
The ghz wall is there and all, but I'm not totally buying that. They just don't offer lower end parts that you can overclock because they don't make as much money on it.

Core unlocking etc was on the AMD side last gen, and now you've got what, 3? enthusiast chips from intel and locked multipliers/linked bus speeds on everything. They've pretty effectively cut off the low-mid level enthusiast range that was growing for a while there. Those $60-$150 that you could overclock the snot out of like the e5200 are gone. You can get one of those overpriced i3 chips, but what's the point.

SB was pretty nice, clarkdale and nehalem were a bunch of fun to overclock.

That said, the lower power use is nice and I'm sure the lower end parts will be awesome for mobile, HTPC etc. It's just that the whole segment of people who want to buy a cheap chip and overclock it to the ragged edge are definitely being pushed away by Intel.
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Agree 100%. During my old phenom 2 days, once I fined tuned my settings to reach my desired overclock, it actually felt satisfying somewhat. Overclocking on intel (sandy & ivy) feels like I'm on training wheels.

Just imagine unlocked i3's. I would buy a handful of those suckers for suicide runs :D.
 
Zefram0911 said:
With the reviews or news leaks and assumed pricing.. 229 vs at least 300+ (probably 349) for only 5-15% increase in performance. I don't think I'll be unhappy at all. Sure it's an EOL socket, but I'll most likely be keeping my 3770K for a few more years.
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LGA1155 may be a dead-socket - however, what's the DSI (Dead Socket Impact)? Unlike with LGA775, there's no RAM change (DDR3 will still be the default with Haswell), and except for portables, there is little earthshaking OR revolutionary about either Haswell OR its chipsets. In other words, despite Haswell killing LGA1155, the dead-socket impact is pretty much nil.

After LGA775 became a dead socket, the only real impact is on those of us with DDR2 motherboards - and that is primarily a RAM-capacity issue for us. (That is, in fact, the prime mover behind my heading for Ivy Bridge - RAM capacity first, due to desktop virtualization, not gaming or any other use.)
 
PGHammer said:
LGA1155 may be a dead-socket - however, what's the DSI (Dead Socket Impact)? Unlike with LGA775, there's no RAM change (DDR3 will still be the default with Haswell), and except for portables, there is little earthshaking OR revolutionary about either Haswell OR its chipsets. In other words, despite Haswell killing LGA1155, the dead-socket impact is pretty much nil.
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I think that's why Intel waited to give us more than 2 6Gb SATA ports. I want Haswell just for that.
 
I've not read the entire thread but another topic eludes to mainstream (i.e. i3 - i7) parts becoming available for purchase as early as next week.

Obviously, if true, this is good news.

However, do we have confirmation whether Intel are going to go ahead with a release of IB-E? Or are they skipping and going straight to Haswell-E?

In either case, when do we think we will see the new "extreme" parts/motherboards?
 
Syphon Filter said:
I've not read the entire thread but another topic eludes to mainstream (i.e. i3 - i7) parts becoming available for purchase as early as next week.

Obviously, if true, this is good news.

However, do we have confirmation whether Intel are going to go ahead with a release of IB-E? Or are they skipping and going straight to Haswell-E?

In either case, when do we think we will see the new "extreme" parts/motherboards?
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IB-E if going by the road map is either this summer or later in Q3 2013. So, it's going to come after Haswell is out.

Haswell-E unfortunately isn't until Summer 2014 according to that same roadmap, about the time we will probably start seeing DDR4 appear for servers (DDR4 isn't expected to be out for consumers until 2015 for some reason).
 
InternationalHat said:
4.4-4.5 isn't really close to a 50% overclock. Base clock is 3.5, 4 core turbo is 3.7.

We're not even really looking at a 25% overclock there taking the turbo into account.
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Let's say 20% then....
What other product would you ever say had a "design flub" when it didn't outperform its advertised specs by 20% with the flip of a switch?

If your car advertises 400 horses, would you say it had a design flaw if you couldn't get 480 horses by flipping a switch without any adverse effects?
 
I was told from a very good source that we will not see a desktop version on this "tick" cycle. Tocks will be socket/soc, Ticks will be SOC only. So Haswell will be Socket/SOC, Broadwell will be SOC only, Skylake will be Socket/SOC.
 
octoberasian said:
IB-E if going by the road map is either this summer or later in Q3 2013. So, it's going to come after Haswell is out.

Haswell-E unfortunately isn't until Summer 2014 according to that same roadmap, about the time we will probably start seeing DDR4 appear for servers (DDR4 isn't expected to be out for consumers until 2015 for some reason).
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Thanks for that.
 
PGHammer said:
LGA1155 may be a dead-socket - however, what's the DSI (Dead Socket Impact)? Unlike with LGA775, there's no RAM change (DDR3 will still be the default with Haswell), and except for portables, there is little earthshaking OR revolutionary about either Haswell OR its chipsets. In other words, despite Haswell killing LGA1155, the dead-socket impact is pretty much nil.

After LGA775 became a dead socket, the only real impact is on those of us with DDR2 motherboards - and that is primarily a RAM-capacity issue for us. (That is, in fact, the prime mover behind my heading for Ivy Bridge - RAM capacity first, due to desktop virtualization, not gaming or any other use.)
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That's really my point in not caring and still buying the 3770K.
 
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Zangmonkey said:
Let's say 20% then....
What other product would you ever say had a "design flub" when it didn't outperform its advertised specs by 20% with the flip of a switch?

If your car advertises 400 horses, would you say it had a design flaw if you couldn't get 480 horses by flipping a switch without any adverse effects?
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As long as we're going with analogies... you could compare it to something in a similar electronic spectrum like an audio amplifier which often do put out higher than advertised wattage at a given voltage input. That's something people come to expect from quality brands.

I'm not saying it's a design flub or a design flaw, never did. However, I do think the performance of these launched chips is a disappointment and not what was expected by enthusiasts. Haswell doesn't do much to push desktop computing forward in the mainstream, and there hasn't been a high end part since SB-E. Low end overclockability is gone too. I don't care about the TIM, they can use horsehair glue for all I care. I just want better performance and more features before I buy anything new from them.

It's a company trying to make money. They don't need a pat on the back and a cookie every time they go to the potty properly. There are plenty of good reasons for enthusiasts to be unimpressed by Haswell.
 
LigTasm said:
Does anoyne happen to know if the Haswell iGPU will support 2560x1600 out of the DVI port?
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ScabSE said:
I'm curious about the resolution limitations of the new iGPU's as well. It'd be nice to not be stuck with 1920x1200 over DVI, as is the case with HD4000.

The leaked slides do mention 4k x 2k res, but that's in relation to Iris & Iris Pro. It'd be interesting to know what the HD4600 can do.
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From the AsRock Z87E-ITX spec sheet:

- Supports HDMI Technology with max. resolution up to 4K × 2K (4096x2304) @ 24Hz
- Supports DVI-I with max. resolution up to 1920x1200 @ 60Hz
- Supports DisplayPort with max. resolution up to 4K × 2K (4096x2304) @ 24Hz
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Fuller max. res specs from an MSI page (includes 60Hz modes):
- 1 x DisplayPort with max. resolution of 4096x2160@24Hz, 24bpp/ 3840x2160@60Hz, 24bpp
- 1 x HDMI® port with max. resolution up to 4096x2160@24Hz, 24bpp/2560x1600@60Hz, 24bpp/1920x1080@60Hz, 36bpp
- 1 x DVI-I port with max. resolution up to 1920x1200 @60Hz, 24bpp
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Looks about in line with what we'd expect, it's an architecture change with better igp and the same or so overclocking as ivy.
 
ShuttleLuv said:
Looks about in line with what we'd expect, it's an architecture change with better igp and the same or so overclocking as ivy.
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Except that the difference in thermals is huge and will very likely limit the upper end overclocks that were achievable on decent IB chips.
 
Well there is differences due to the onboard vr and everything but you gotta decide if a new platform and modest oc are worth it, or the older ivy with maybe a few hundred more mhz? Has anyone verified if these use the crap tim of ivy?
 
Romale23 said:
when can we actually, you know, order laptop with haswell?
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The new Razer Blade is already stating that it will have the new Haswell chips in them.

I personally will be skipping Haswell. I am locked into ivy right now on two machines and I think they handle everything I can throw at them well.
 
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