Waiting for Haswell?

spincut

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I was waiting on Ivy Bridge, but admittedly was a tad underwhelmed by both the CPU and platform change of sorts. I figured there would be a more massive "tock" change with Haswell, but honestly, in reading about the socket 1150 (down 5 pins?) and the CPU itself, the differences for the one real useful CPU (the 4770/k, presumably to replace the Ivy bridge of similar numbering) seem rather minor?

Anyone want to weigh on this (I'm sure many have already in other threads, although I saw none on quick glance beyond release date speculation threads).
 

Araxie

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What system you have? What platform are you using?... Thats the mainly important thing to decide if you can wait or not...
 

spincut

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I don't have a system, and I am able to wait...I think you took my subject a bit too literally. I am just curious what the "point" of waiting is, and if I could perhaps generate a conversation to discuss the actual and significant differences that would make it worth it.

Also, just from a surface level perspective, a socket with less pins? Really? The proposed z87 is to be better than the z77 though, right?
 

NIVO

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hmm, well I can address as to why I wanna upgrade I guess(not necessarily discuss the improved benefits of the new socket/chipset). Im still on 775 with a Q6600 oc'ed to 3.6. Now as new games/tech coming down the pipe, im just now starting to be "long in the tooth" with this platform. But not in the cpu department, actually in the GPU department. At the same time, there is no sense in investing more money into a dead socket platform. Granted the cpu does everything just fine and then some, its one investment that really HAS paid off for so long now. But its time to move forward, finally get native USB 3, sata 6, newer cpu instruction sets, etc etc. I think now is the time for the move, as the jump will be enough to notice going to a 4770K. From what im reading though, the next huge jump in GPU performance wont be until Maxwell(GTX 800 series), so either continue to use the GTX460 SOC(which is a damn fine card) or buy an intermediate card to get by with until purchasing from the 800 series. I think that is where our biggest leap is going to come from here in the next 2 years personally.
 

Ultima99

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Don't worry about pin count. Haswell will have higher IPC and better power efficiency that IB. Its not long to wait, why by last years cpu?
 

Araxie

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Don't worry about pin count. Haswell will have higher IPC and better power efficiency that IB. Its not long to wait, why by last years cpu?

Yeah, we are more or less a month of distance from haswell... So no need to be hurry until they come out.

Also with the OP one of the more important things of wait is that exactly change of socket type, that mean the socket 1155 is a dead end way, people who build a new rig at this moment are knowing that any posibilty of upgrade the CPU is null... Waiting for haswell mean a new socket, that can be a possible upgrade in a future.. Also comparing to ivy bridge it mean 5-10% (thats the expected) more performance clock by clock, a more efficient control over energy, without the thermal issues of ivy bridge, also new ways of OC..

In a personal opinion the change of pin numbers is just a comercial way... A new socket mean for intel new sales on their mobo, mean the gain profit of manufacturer that pay for the use of the tecnology, etc etc etc... A way tu push users spend more money.. Is not a significally diference like 1155 to 2011 but i can be wrong, the difference from nehalem to sandy bridge was so high.. And just was one pin change from 1156 to 1155...
 

syncopied

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why do they say less power consumption when the haswell processors have higher max tdp vs the ivy bridge?

also, when will there be general availability of both cpu and mobos (mini-itx especially)? the day of (june 2)?

i'm seeing a cheap 3570k at microcenter for $169... so tempted but dont know if i should wait
 

KazeoHin

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The TDP goes up because of the integrated VRM on-die. It is much more power efficient than motherboard VRMs, but it means that the CPU is now handling that load, instead of the board. Lower overal system power footprint, but the CPU technically uses more power.
 

WeaponX

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Yeah, I saw that 3570K for 169 + 40 dollars off ANY motherboard and almost jumped. But I calmed down and I'm waiting for Haswell for many reasons, like finally more native Sata 6 ports, native USB 3.0, better iGPU, possibility of a 5ghz overclock 24/7, more up date to driver support for Windows 7/8. etc.

I just wish Asus would show their ROG boards already. I wonder when all the manufacturers will start to show their boards, can't all be at once at Computex can it? Well, I guess they could but that would mean another month of waiting for availability. I'm taking a guess and saying all the motherboards will have to be revealed some time in May with availability in or June 3rd.
 

NIVO

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agreed on the boards, i'd love to have more info now. I wanna go mini-itx this build, which means i'll probably be waiting a bit longer. I gave myself a self imposed date of build until October of this year. Most major games will come out around then anyway.
 

syncopied

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agreed on the boards, i'd love to have more info now. I wanna go mini-itx this build, which means i'll probably be waiting a bit longer. I gave myself a self imposed date of build until October of this year. Most major games will come out around then anyway.

how much longer do you think for mini-itx b/c i have to finish my build before i move -_-
 

defaultluser

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In a personal opinion the change of pin numbers is just a comercial way... A new socket mean for intel new sales on their mobo, mean the gain profit of manufacturer that pay for the use of the tecnology, etc etc etc....

They've changed the socket because they moved VRMs onto the CPU die itself. This is all part of the plan to integrate more parts of the system on a single die.

I agree it's a little bit hard to understand the need for a new socket because it still uses DDR3, but it's necessary.

why do they say less power consumption when the haswell processors have higher max tdp vs the ivy bridge?

The CPU has been revamped to have even lower IDLE states, much like the revamp of the Atom processor. This will allow it sip power at idle (just like the Atoms that compete with ARM cores), which will give you longer battery life.

Also, the TDPs you see are only for the desktop parts. I would expect the mobile parts to offer the same clocks at the same TDP as Ivy Bridge, just with MUCH better battery life. Ultra-portable processors (17w) will benefit even more thanks to GT3, which is twice as wide as the desktop GT2 (HD 4600) integrated graphics. By making the graphics part wider, they can cut loaded power by clocking it lower while still offering 2x the performance of Ivy Bridge HD 4000.
 
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euskalzabe

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The TDP goes up because of the integrated VRM on-die. It is much more power efficient than motherboard VRMs, but it means that the CPU is now handling that load, instead of the board. Lower overal system power footprint, but the CPU technically uses more power.

The jury is still out to see how much improvement Haswell will actually mean, although I'm convinced that even if TDP went up by integrating VRM, on average the chip will still be able to manage good performance-per-watt numbers. 10h of battery? I'm not so sure yet... maybe the lesser heat + aggressive gating... Reviews should come out on 6/3 or soon after, so I'm eager to read those. However, Haswell's successor Broadwell is the one where probably power will go down a good amount, even if it will partly be due to its ball grid array structure (which doesn't make me happy... but most people, the general market, they don't normally swap CPUs anyway and usually buy full computers).
 

Cheetoz

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from this

snbexec.png


to this

haswellexec.png


seems like a big difference to me!
 

Tsumi

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Most of those changes are probably the AVX and FMA changes/additions. They don't really affect integer performance, but can double FPU performance for code compiled with the proper tags. Unfortunately, 99% of mainstream software do not utilize the new instruction sets as of yet.
 

Raghar

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FMA has different rounding errors than standard. Thus some SW wouldn't be even able to use it.

In addition majority of properly written SW would use integers, because there is nearly no reason to use doubles at all and floats are downright harmful.
 

wadec22

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if you can stand to wait, why not? talking out the other side of my mouth... my patience ran out. when I heard the initial release will have a usb bug, I decided I would have to wait until july for the release of the more polished product.
I have a microcenter nearby and decided to take the plunge to get the 3770k for 229.99. gambling that the 4770k will be more expensive. I was ready for pci e 3.0, better usb and sata.....
coming from the 775 package, you can't lose.
 

arkk

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This is my biggest concern. I'm on an i7 920 right now and want USB 3.0/SATA 6gbps etc. I'm tempted to just upgrade to ivy now instead of waiting until June, because if the performance and over clocking is really only 7% or so over Ivy, the diff is negligible to me.
 

defaultluser

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Most of those changes are probably the AVX and FMA changes/additions. They don't really affect integer performance, but can double FPU performance for code compiled with the proper tags. Unfortunately, 99% of mainstream software do not utilize the new instruction sets as of yet.

AVX2 will also potentially double throughput for integer vector instructions, which were not supported by the original AVX. This can mean huge improvements in video encode speeds (these are integer-heavy), and could benefit web/database operations for servers.

You bet your ass companies will be adding AVX2 support soon :D
 

Raghar

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I'm currently thinking about Ivy Bridge-E. It has lower power consumption than Sandy-E, and has enough L3 cache and quad channel memory.
 

maxius

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why do they say less power consumption when the haswell processors have higher max tdp vs the ivy bridge?

also, when will there be general availability of both cpu and mobos (mini-itx especially)? the day of (june 2)?

i'm seeing a cheap 3570k at microcenter for $169... so tempted but dont know if i should wait

go for it hasbeen is a mediocre 10% ipc boost and a minor clock boost with a better igp that you will never use go with what your wallet can afford and spend the extra money you save on a big ssd that where you will see real world performance.
 

kingduqc

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This is my biggest concern. I'm on an i7 920 right now and want USB 3.0/SATA 6gbps etc. I'm tempted to just upgrade to ivy now instead of waiting until June, because if the performance and over clocking is really only 7% or so over Ivy, the diff is negligible to me.

There is no benchmark for overclock so we may get way more oc headroom and IPC bench are made of non-consumer ready cpu plus you don't have to deal with heat problem because it's soldered. You end up with the newest platform so you actually have an upgrade path if you so desire on the same mobo.

It's like a month, If I was you I'd wait considering the 920 is still decent for everything.
 

syncopied

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go for it hasbeen is a mediocre 10% ipc boost and a minor clock boost with a better igp that you will never use go with what your wallet can afford and spend the extra money you save on a big ssd that where you will see real world performance.

hope it's still at this price when I get back to the US in late may from my trip -_- I guess i will have to wait till i get back to find out what the market is like...

so you guys don't think the lack of ability to upgrade at a later date (because of a new slot) should hinder me from waiting for haswell?

i am learning lots of new things everyday from what you guys share! thanks so much for posting all this info!
 

rudy

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I don't care about power efficiency in a desktop I care about absolute performance. So I don't really care to hear about that, we all know ya, each CPU gen gets better for laptops.

To me the real test is overclockability. The 2500k and 3570K are great CPUs because they overclock like champs so easy, even for my grandma I would OC to 4.0 with stock HSF on either of those. Ultimately if haswell cannot overclock just as well then the performance / dollar is actually going to be better with the older CPUs. The IPC on haswell does not look to be that huge of a gain. We had a similar situation IMO going from SB to IB, overclocks weren't not quite as rhobust and even though you could get more performance out of IB it was hardly worth a jump or note, it all came down to the price you could get either CPU at.
 

cantoncobaltsssc

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I didn't wait. I was coming from 775 Q9550 from August 2009 and decided Feb 1st I was upgrading and I'm really happy that I didn't wait for Haswell. I'm at 4.5 on a Microcenter 3770k and I cannot imagine Haswell doing anything terribly faster for my video encoding & gaming.
 
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I'm looking strongly at haswell for my first cpu upgrade since 2009. My good ole' 920 is still getting the job done, but moving from 45nm down to 22nm sounds like a good jump in performance, wattage and heat.

I've been running my 920 at 3.6ghz daily pretty much since day one and it's done everything I've asked. This has been the best processor, longevity wise anyway that I've ever owned. I could probably go another year or two on it.
 

wadec22

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I'm looking strongly at haswell for my first cpu upgrade since 2009. My good ole' 920 is still getting the job done, but moving from 45nm down to 22nm sounds like a good jump in performance, wattage and heat.

I've been running my 920 at 3.6ghz daily pretty much since day one and it's done everything I've asked. This has been the best processor, longevity wise anyway that I've ever owned. I could probably go another year or two on it.

exact same boat I was in. reduction in heat is biggest benefit to me so far.
 
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exact same boat I was in. reduction in heat is biggest benefit to me so far.

Yeah, that is really my primary motivator. In the winter, it's not such a big deal. Summer however and the 920 can put off some serious heat. I have a VERY small office that is shared with my girlfriend, so the less heat my PC is putting out the better.
 

one swell foop

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Yes, waiting on Haswell. I've got my Q9550 and it has served me well, but I want USB 3 and DDR3. I feel like the amount of RAM I have and the speed it runs at is limiting performance more than anything else.

I will be waiting for prices to stabilize and for motherboards to come out and be extensively reviewed before deciding on which one I'll go for. At least now they aren't doing the stupid proprietary chipsets in the motherboard, the nvidia chipset on my current had a couple of issues that took a while to resolve.
 

NLW

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I hear you. My Q9400 has done well by me for a long time, but it's getting long in the tooth. The RAM issues are beginning to be a problem as well (I refuse to pay big $ for DDR2). I'm hoping Microcenter will have their usual deals up shortly after release.
 

Araxie

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This is my biggest concern. I'm on an i7 920 right now and want USB 3.0/SATA 6gbps etc. I'm tempted to just upgrade to ivy now instead of waiting until June, because if the performance and over clocking is really only 7% or so over Ivy, the diff is negligible to me.

But if you have long time with a 920 why not wait to june until haswell?... You said 7% but still they aren't out on the market and still not any review/bench tested so we don't not exactly the max performance over ivy... You have to think other things, like if you move to ivy you are upgrading to a dead socket you kill any possibility of CPU upgrade for that new mobo you have to buy... Moving to haswell you have new socket with new tecnology and a possible later upgrade when broadwell for CPU... And you still will keep the native USB 3.0 and sata 6gbps etc.... And all with aproximate the prices of the actual prices on ivy?.. It worth the wait time.. At least for me.. The 920 could do their great job until june..
 

Ur_Mom

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But if you have long time with a 920 why not wait to june until haswell?... You said 7% but still they aren't out on the market and still not any review/bench tested so we don't not exactly the max performance over ivy... You have to think other things, like if you move to ivy you are upgrading to a dead socket you kill any possibility of CPU upgrade for that new mobo you have to buy... Moving to haswell you have new socket with new tecnology and a possible later upgrade when broadwell for CPU... And you still will keep the native USB 3.0 and sata 6gbps etc.... And all with aproximate the prices of the actual prices on ivy?.. It worth the wait time.. At least for me.. The 920 could do their great job until june..


Agreed. You're not suffering too much as it is. Waiting a month or two won't kill you. You won't see that 7% because you aren't going from Ivy to Haswell. You'll see a much larger improvment because you're going from the 920 to Haswell for the same price as the Ivy is now. With the release being so close, I'd wait. But, once it released, I'd jump.
 
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