Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[heatlesssun]

Awesome link! It actually proves that gaming under Linux is doing pretty damn good! Almost at OSX levels in 2014 with far less titles available under Steam! A vastly outdated link that doesn't really prove the current gaming usage under Linux whatsoever though.

So links from 2 and 3 years ago where one of the comments is "No, I think it will grow, due to steambox." Valve has all but abandoned SteamBox at this point. Its new fascination is VR.

 

[BulletDust]

I think you're missing the point. Yes, it's the most popular, but it has the most stuff and widest variety also. That's why I said Amazon is a better analogy; Amazon has almost everything I could think of to order online. McDonalds still just sells burgers and some extras. Windows may not be the best in and of itself, but it CONTINUES to be popular because it supports such a wide array of stuff.

Except this just isn't true.

Windows is popular because it's literally forced onto the user, you buy a PC chances are it's got Windows pre installed - That doesn't make Windows better, it simply indicates that the consumer knows no better. So as a result of such forced marketing it's no wonder companies like Adobe love Windows.

I can assure you, Windows 7 support isn't going to last as long as you think it will, soon enough it won't be MS dropping support of the OS, it'll be the developers dropping support of the OS far before it's cut off date. It's what happened to XP and it'll definitely happen to Windows 7.

 

[BulletDust]

So links from 2 and 3 years ago where one of the comments is "No, I think it will grow, due to steambox." Valve has all but abandoned SteamBox at this point. Its new fascination is VR.

Really, how do you work that out? As we well know Steam doesn't count SteamOS in their statistics. I've mentioned this time and time again, we're back to comprehension issues once more!

 

[BulletDust]

The better question here is as a Desktop windows user, what am I MISSING OUT on by not being on Linux? I know I would have better security, but if I've never been hacked and run an antivirus / malware scan, that's not so relevant to me. I know you don't have the update nightmare you get on Win10, which is why I'm still on 7. I like the visual customization of Linux, but that's not enough by itself to make me want to switch. So as someone who mainly wants to run my wide variety of programs, what's the draw of Linux?

I make a living cleaning up Windows PC's infested with malware and viruses, don't assume that because you've somehow managed to avoid infection in your isolated case that Windows isn't the most likely candidate for literally millions of infections, because we all know that is completely untrue. If you don't run any form of anti virus or malware protection for all you know your PC's part of some sleeper botnet, how the hell would you know any different?

 

[Darunion]

Except this just isn't true.

Windows is popular because it's literally forced onto the user, you buy a PC chances are it's got Windows pre installed - That doesn't make Windows better, it simply indicates that the consumer knows no better. So as a result of such forced marketing it's no wonder companies like Adobe love Windows.

I can assure you, Windows 7 support isn't going to last as long as you think it will, soon enough it won't be MS dropping support of the OS, it'll be the developers dropping support of the OS far before it's cut off date. It's what happened to XP and it'll definitely happen to Windows 7.

It just is self sustaining at this point too. We know it is forced, but forced is a strong word if it is also desired. I think it was dell IIRC that was doing linux desktop offerings, but still the biggest choice is still windows. Once linux can do what windows can do without having to sacrifice a virgin during a full moon to make it work, then it will stand up there with them.

Linux cant move into the average home for the reason of, I shouldn't have to change to work with the software (ie missing out on games I want to play, or certain software I am used to). The OS should just do what I want it to do, and that is the reason anyone should pick an OS. For some people that means windows, some linux, osx, self written os's (for 5 people), chrome etc etc.

Also don't let your pride be harmed by someone preferring windows, is it the best os? Possibly based on what criteria is used, likewise for linux. But there is no perfect OS that just does everything , and linux is the perfect example as you know it really isn't fair to just lump them all together because you can get specialized distros or compile your own distro to suit your needs.

For me, a few things keeps me on windows, warcraft, xbox one, and my work vpn that seems to be a whiny bitch when it comes to os. I do miss having a linux box to play on though.

 

[heatlesssun]

Really, how do you work that out? As we well know Steam doesn't count SteamOS in their statistics. I've mentioned this time and time again, we're back to comprehension issues once more!

http://boilingsteam.com/alienware-exec-steam-machines-lost-priority/

Interesting read from a pro-Linux site that doesn't have a lot of positive things to say about SteamBoxes.

 

[heatlesssun]

I make a living cleaning up Windows PC's infested with malware and viruses, don't assume that because you've somehow managed to avoid infection in your isolated case that Windows isn't the most likely candidate for literally millions of infections, because we all know that is completely untrue. If you don't run any form of anti virus or malware protection for all you know your PC's part of some sleeper botnet, how the hell would you know any different?

Like all software on the desktop, including malware, Windows is by far the most popular target. Unlike you, I can easily admit this being a weakness of Windows. But if desktop Linux were in a similar position of 90% market share, it would definitely see far more attacks on the desktop because of around 30,40, 50 fold increase in users than it has today. Nothing can totally protect unsuspecting people from those highly motivated and skilled to take advantage of them, not even Linux.

 

[BulletDust]

It just is self sustaining at this point too. We know it is forced, but forced is a strong word if it is also desired. I think it was dell IIRC that was doing linux desktop offerings, but still the biggest choice is still windows. Once linux can do what windows can do without having to sacrifice a virgin during a full moon to make it work, then it will stand up there with them.

Linux cant move into the average home for the reason of, I shouldn't have to change to work with the software (ie missing out on games I want to play, or certain software I am used to). The OS should just do what I want it to do, and that is the reason anyone should pick an OS. For some people that means windows, some linux, osx, self written os's (for 5 people), chrome etc etc.

Also don't let your pride be harmed by someone preferring windows, is it the best os? Possibly based on what criteria is used, likewise for linux. But there is no perfect OS that just does everything , and linux is the perfect example as you know it really isn't fair to just lump them all together because you can get specialized distros or compile your own distro to suit your needs.

For me, a few things keeps me on windows, warcraft, xbox one, and my work vpn that seems to be a whiny bitch when it comes to os. I do miss having a linux box to play on though.

I don't see any evidence that could highlight 100% that if Windows wasn't forced by default installation on boxed PC's that it would still be popular because it's desired. In fact, considering the retail cost of Windows I believe that it would be a very safe assumption to state that if the only way to purchase a PC was to buy it with no OS installed, leaving the installation of the OS up to the consumer, that Windows wouldn't disappear overnight once people worked out that they could do most of what they want to do without outlaying $150.00 on an OS!

Once again, popularity doesn't indicate better.

Furthermore, as I've stated in the past, there are a number of people that are only too happy to loose a percentage of games just so they could reclaim their PC back from Windows 10 - Not everyone loves Windows, especially Windows 10.

The remainder of your quote I agree with, with the exception that you're implying Linux is difficult to use - It's not difficult to use, it's simply not a Windows clone, and that's an outrageously good thing.

 

[BulletDust]

Like all software on the desktop, including malware, Windows is by far the most popular target. Unlike you, I can easily admit this being a weakness of Windows. But if desktop Linux were in a similar position of 90% market share, it would definitely see far more attacks on the desktop because of around 30,40, 50 fold increase in users that it has today. Nothing can totally protect unsuspecting people from those highly motivated to take advantage of them, not even Linux.

I don't totally agree.

Yes, Windows infection issues are due to the forced popularity of the OS somewhat. However, even MS themselves have admitted that the primary reason for UAE to exist when running an Administrator account is primarily to be an inconvenience to users thereby forcing developers to stop coding software that insists on running as admistrator - Under an Administrator account UAE has little to do with physical security.

Now you tell me, how many people run a standard account with UAE? I think it's fairly safe to assume that outside of corporate circles it's literally no one.

Now compare this to Linux where sudo is far more flexible and geared more towards physical security as opposed to simply inconvenience, and couple that with the fact that Linux software is downloaded from signed repositories and I think it's almost impossible to argue that infection issues under Windows are due solely to popularity alone.

 

[Darunion]

I don't see any evidence that could highlight 100% that if Windows wasn't forced by default installation on boxed PC's that it would still be popular because it's desired. In fact, considering the retail cost of Windows I believe that it would be a very safe assumption to state that if the only way to purchase a PC was to buy it with no OS installed, leaving the installation of the OS up to the consumer, that Windows wouldn't disappear overnight once people worked out that they could do most of what they want to do without outlaying $150.00 on an OS!

Once again, popularity doesn't indicate better.

Furthermore, as I've stated in the past, there are a number of people that are only too happy to loose a percentage of games just so they could reclaim their PC back from Windows 10 - Not everyone loves Windows, especially Windows 10.

The remainder of your quote I agree with, with the exception that you're implying Linux is difficult to use - It's not difficult to use, it's simply not a Windows clone, and that's an outrageously good thing.

Yea I would say windows is starting to get much harder to use. Hell for work I had to write a registry script to force install a 32bit database driver because MS is pushing everyone to SQL but all our crap is on an access db. And in microsofts wisdom, that driver is replaced with the 64bit version from office, so if microsoft word updates, I lose connection to my database which orcad and mentor pads runs off of.

I really miss win 2k as my daily driver. I think that was my personal favorite os.

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't see any evidence that could highlight 100% that if Windows wasn't forced by default installation on boxed PC's that it would still be popular because it's desired.

I agree here. Who the hell DESIRES a desktop OS beyond places like this on the internet? But if that PC came with an OS that didn't support the stuff they want to use, I bet they would learn to not desire it so much.

Furthermore, as I've stated in the past, there are a number of people that are only too happy to loose a percentage of games just so they could reclaim their PC back from Windows 10 - Not everyone loves Windows, especially Windows 10.

You have no proof of this. Indeed who has even asked the question "What percentage of games would you be willing to lose to reclaim your PC back from Windows 10?". I mean, really, who the hell even thinks like that outside of Nerdville?

The remainder of your quote I agree with, with the exception that you're implying Linux is difficult to use - It's not difficult to use, it's simply not a Windows clone, and that's an outrageously good thing.

Might be a good thing to clone that software support though.

 

[heatlesssun]

Now you tell me, how many people run a standard account with UAE? I think it's fairly safe to assume that outside of corporate circles it's literally no one.

Now compare this to Linux where sudo is far more flexible and geared more towards physical security as opposed to simply inconvenience, and couple that with the fact that Linux software is downloaded from signed repositories and I think it's almost impossible to argue that infection issues under Windows are due solely to popularity alone.

Huh? Windows does the same thing as sudo if you're not running under an admin account. The problem is that when you buy a PC, someone's got to be the admin and yeah, there's nothing in Windows to really force the issue.

 

[Frobozz]

Like all software on the desktop, including malware, Windows is by far the most popular target. Unlike you, I can easily admit this being a weakness of Windows. But if desktop Linux were in a similar position of 90% market share, it would definitely see far more attacks on the desktop because of around 30,40, 50 fold increase in users than it has today. Nothing can totally protect unsuspecting people from those highly motivated and skilled to take advantage of them, not even Linux.

I would totally bet windows malware would run under wine.

 

[heatlesssun]

I would totally bet windows malware would run under wine.

No doubt a lot of it can. I do think this is one area where maybe Linux folks don't see how much Windows has improved. If you look at the RTM of XP, that was a security disaster like nothing in the modern day of Windows. And I'm at all saying that Windows is anywhere near perfect in this area, but it had to have gotten better than the initial release of XP.

 

[ChadD]

Linux doesn't support the first major came to out this year in Resident Evil 7.

RE 7 is a PS4 game.

No, that doesn't add up. Steam added Windows titles 4 to 1 last year compared to Linux, most were indie shovelware.

All I said was there is some good indi Linux games heatle, you can call it shovelware if you wish. Sure there's plenty of junk for Windows it pays to put junk out for windows... it has a huge install base of the computer illiterate. You are making the point for me... the vast majority of those 4 to 1 windows titles are junk. Although I'm sure there are Linux titles you wouldn't like. Not many if any are made to make "quick money" for some terrible developer. Windows has lots of those because it has an install base that tends to get sucked in by a cool graphic or trailer.

Why in the hell would I run games on a PS4 that have Windows versions with the kind of hardware I'm using now? I can get being pro-Linux but really, this forum is full of people that spend money and overclock and delid and custom water cool to play games on a PC. If Linux were as good as you say all the people who do these things, who would have the skills to run Linux, would gladly use Linux to power all of this stuff for their gaming needs.

Cause be honest with yourself... most of them run better. lol You know its true... sure the odd game shines perhaps in the GPU dept. Most people will ask you the simple question though. Was the game fun ? If you have fun with the sorts of games that take 5-6 hours to play through and then shelve until you wanna show off your GPU when the brother in law is over have at it. I am quite happy with how pretty CIV 5 looks on my linux machine. I been playing Civ 5 Moo and off world trading lately and they all look great.

Regardless this thread isn't about alternatives just for nuts that change out their hardware every 6 months with no real perceptible difference to any one sane at least for years on end.

I'm glad you got yourself some nice VR toys and the like... I really hope you picked the correct format. Better yet I hope you have lots of fun with it. Again don't confuse your use as a Norm... even here on Hardocp cause its not. (unless I really mistaken and a vast majority of HardOCP readers have already bought into VR) I know myself I'm sitting back waiting on a format winner / standard... although I love reading the breakdowns the guys here do so I can feel in the loop. lol

 

[ChadD]

No, your faulty analogy is not my logic. Shifting Audio to different formats is easy, and if a new one comes along that is actually better, we can switch with relative ease.
Software OTOH, does shift easily, maybe never.

Linux is NOT better. It's just what you prefer. You have to stop confusing your preferences, with facts. Leave that to Trump.

Early adopters? Didn't your point out this is Linux year 26. How is it still early adopter time?

Cause until recently no Linux was not a serious gaming platform at all. Yes Linux users understand that. The last year or two though we have gotten lots of major day and date releases... and there is a thriving Linux indie community.

It may not be perfect... it is good enough for many people that don't build their computers as pure toys.

My computer makes me money that's its main job... and I'm still able to enjoy a bunch of the types of games I love because strategy (rts turn based and other pure PC type games) are very well supported by Linux. We even get a good spread of the FPS type games, windows people try and convince me I should like all the time.

As most Linux users will admit to... we (I) keep a small windows drive around with a few games on it I like to play that I just don't get the performance I would like in Wine or a VM solution.

As an alternative to Windows though... ya Linux is a great one. Not forcing it on anyone, and if you have games you really love and that is the ONLY thing holding you to windows you owe it to yourself to at least check Linux out if you never have or haven't in awhile. (seeing as we are talking about good alternatives... and IMO and millions of others Linux isn't an alternative at all. Windows is the alternative you run if a few specific games are important to you.... but the thought of using windows for my business hahahaha.

 

[ChadD]

I think you need to look in the mirror to see a diehard, or more like Zealot.

Microsoft is becoming more of a multi-platform company. They no longer try to without products from other platforms. Instead they just sell products on all viable platforms. It's a much more sensible way to conduct business.

In line with that Microsoft reversed direction and developed Office Apps for iPad/iPhone. That doesn't mean the are adopting iOS as their mobile OS.

Similarly developing server product for Linux makes sense, because Linux is the leading server platform.

Thinking Microsoft is going to replace the Windows Kernel with the Linux Kernel is just Delusional.

It's not based on any kind of evidence, just your Linux colored glasses.

Your right its not a fact. Its just a logical business move. I think MS has been extremely slow to react to lots of stuff the last few years, I don't however believe they are all morons. MS is not going to spend billions of R&D dollars keeping up with Linux development long term. Its bad business.

We know they are already transitioning their Largest systems to a Linux kernel Microsoft made solutions. We know because they have SAID so. Microsoft cloud services like MS office run on Microsoft Linux. That isn't something I pulled out of the air its a fact. A real one not an alternative one.

They tried to make their latest Windows server release as Linux as like as they could... they crated their own file system (cause god forbid they use an open one... but what ever they are going to cave on that soon enough cause ReFS and server 2012 didn't really help much. MS is still loosing install base. They have held onto a few keystone accounts by pretty much giving away free support... which is very bad business.

If they don't make major changes to their server solutions soon things are going to stop slowly snowballing and pick up some serious speed. I don't think MS is that stupid I know they have been playing with the kernel... yes they even incorperated a Linux subsystem for everyone in Win 10. Moving things in the server world over to the Linux kernel makes more sense then you think... no it doesn't mean MS Windows is all of a sudden Linux. It will still be windows and most Joe and Jane users won't even notice the difference on the surface. But it instantly SAVES MS millions, and long term more like billions. Cause Kernel development is expensive. Unless you think they can continue to out spend the entirety of the rest of the tech world forever. Google alone spends as much on OS Development as MS... when you factor in all the work done on the same project by companies like IBM, Samsung, Intel, ARM ect ect. MS can't continue really competing with that level of spend. They have lined up all the tech they need to do it and they have even been rolling it out and selling it in pieces. IMO the question isn't if they will switch to the Kernel, its really when. I doubt Win 10 gets a kernel switch anytime soon... but Server 2017 or 2018 I would say its not a bad bet. When that happens the consumer version won't be that far behind, MS isn't going to spend billions keeping a consumer only OS updated at the same pace of Linux Kernel development.

 

[BulletDust]

I agree here. Who the hell DESIRES a desktop OS beyond places like this on the internet? But if that PC came with an OS that didn't support the stuff they want to use, I bet they would learn to not desire it so much.

Once again you missed the point. Software support has everything to do with Windows popularity, Windows popularity has nothing to do with the fact that it's a good, or even a desired, OS.

You have no proof of this. Indeed who has even asked the question "What percentage of games would you be willing to lose to reclaim your PC back from Windows 10?". I mean, really, who the hell even thinks like that outside of Nerdville?

It's obvious you read with blinkers on, totally avoiding any positive Linux propaganda. As a Linux user I read of Windows users switching all the time, furthermore it's proven in the statistics, while they vary there's simply no denying that Linux popularity is growing whether you want to admit to it or not.

We like porn:

https://imgur.com/a/94HZe

And here:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Might be a good thing to clone that software support though.

A fairly generalised statement based around one's needs. Personally I find software support to be fine, in fact I find it better than fine. If you absolutely need Adobe products or some other overpriced propitiatory product feel free to stick to Windows.

Interesting read from a pro-Linux site that doesn't have a lot of positive things to say about SteamBoxes.

I've stated it before, I don't give the slightest crap about Steamboxes. Doesn't change the fact they aren't included in steam statistics though.

Huh? Windows does the same thing as sudo if you're not running under an admin account. The problem is that when you buy a PC, someone's got to be the admin and yeah, there's nothing in Windows to really force the issue.

Obviously you didn't read my post.

 

[ChadD]

This isn't the first time I've seen this, but this is how you know you're dealing with a zealot. People support Linux because of the freedom and options it gives you, I get that. So a Linux user endorses you to go buy a CONSOLE to play your games before playing them on Windows. Oh sure, consoles are all about the freedom. Run at the resolution and framerate you want, hook up any kind of controller you want, mod it, go triple screen with it, etc. Total freedom in the console, because Linux.

Nope very closed system... and If MS had their way Windows would be just as closed. Clearly they haven't had their way completely.

In any event... My joke...

was more to the point that... the game developers COULD publish on Linux with zero issues. They already compile most games these days for FreeBSD (ok a fork still its that's what it is). What keeps most of them from supporting Linux isn't... install numbers or difficulty or support costs. Its Microsoft throwing $ around to ensure specific developers stay on bored with their PC games logo program. For that matter not much stopping most games from being on OSX either... granted most Macs don't have great gaming hardware, regardless it MS that keeps the pressure on.

Yes that makes me hate them enough to forgo a few so called "AAA" games.

 

[BulletDust]

The only reason the Xbox exists is to push developers to use DirectX as it's easier to port games from Xbox to Windows and vice versa - It's a clever marketing tactic to force DirectX onto the broader gaming community.

It's most likely the reason for the 'X' in Xbox.

 

[ChadD]

You just love that Steam survey, don't ya? Even though SteamOS isn't counted and Linux users rarely get invited to participate! But it's Steam so it has to be spot on! Lol!

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

https://imgur.com/a/94HZe

Once again, that's the users we know of, there's many, many more that we have no statistics for whatsoever.

At least some Linux users browsers don't exactly report the truth to some sites... just saying. lol Don't think that would change the numbers in a major way... still a higher % of Linux users are a bit more technical minded might move the results by 0.2-0.3 or something lol

Hmmm wonder if Porn hub counted me lmao

 

[BulletDust]

I'd make up 80% of Tube8.

 

[Snowdog]

Cause until recently no Linux was not a serious gaming platform at all. Yes Linux users understand that. The last year or two though we have gotten lots of major day and date releases... and there is a thriving Linux indie community.

It may not be perfect... it is good enough for many people that don't build their computers as pure toys.

Actually it is often the other way around. Linux is a Hobby for many users. Windows just runs the software people need.

As an alternative to Windows though... ya Linux is a great one. Not forcing it on anyone, and if you have games you really love and that is the ONLY thing holding you to windows you owe it to yourself to at least check Linux out if you never have or haven't in awhile. (seeing as we are talking about good alternatives... and IMO and millions of others Linux isn't an alternative at all. Windows is the alternative you run if a few specific games are important to you.... but the thought of using windows for my business hahahaha.

Check Linux out? As I already said, I have been using Linux personally or professionally for 20 years. I have been hearing for my than 10 of those years, that Linux is better than Windows and now is the time to switch.

It isn't just games that keeps me on Windows.

#1) Its games.

#2) It's specific Software like WMC and VideoRedo where the Linux alternatives suck, that come immediately to mind because I use them almost daily.

#3) It's dozen of other small utilities that I would need to waste lots of time seeking alternatives that I probably didn't like as much.

#4) It's clunky UIs in Linux programs. Because even when desktop Linux software works, it often has much clunkier interfaces on Linux. It isn't even totally the difference between commercial and open source. When I compare MPC-BE which is Windows developed Open Source Media player, with VLC which is a Linux developed Open Source Media player. VLC has a much clunkier UI. MPC is a dream to use in comparison. I

#5) The same UI chunkiness, extends to the Linux desktop itself, making it irritating to use.

Tons of reason to stay with Windows, and really no practical ones to go Linux. MS pisses me off sometimes and I don't like the direction they are headed with Windows 10. But that really isn't a practical reason to make an impractical decision.

That I don't like the direction in Windows 10, doesn't actually affect my usage of Window 7, it is just as good as it was before I ever heard of Windows 10.

I'll just stick with Windows 7 and check the lay of the land when I am forced to move on.

 

[ChadD]

Zealots are funny.

Averaging about 2% is not even marginal. It's like statistical noise.

Use that argument the next time you to go buy something at the store. Tell the cashier your going to pay 2% less tax today because its just statistical noise.

2% of 100 is 2... sure not much. 2% of 200,000 copies is 4,000 copies.

Having said that... your cherry picking there... cause even that OLD article lists a bunch of games selling 5-6% Linux. These days the largest "AAA" Linux titles like Civ5 ect sell very strong. For those guys the expense to "port" the game to Linux isn't very large to be honest. If the game was made in a modern 3rd party engine its a day of work perhaps if they didn't go way off script with the Engine SDKs. For the smaller studios... it is also not a ton of work to recompile for Linux. Lots of the indy developers are developing in Linux anyway and publishing games for IOS / Android and Windows from their.

 

[ChadD]

Actually it is often the other way around. Linux is a Hobby for many users. Windows just runs the software people need.

You know what pays my bills... I specialize in switching Small- medium size companies to open source / Linux. lol

No trust me... you take the average user and plunk them down infront of a PROPERLY installed and running Linux desktop... and they are right at home and happy.

At least once a month someone in some office says to me when I'm around well after I switched them... "So what version of windows is this anyway ?".

Most people just need the stuff there working on to work... and Linux does that extremely well.

 

[Snowdog]

Use that argument the next time you to go buy something at the store. Tell the cashier your going to pay 2% less tax today because its just statistical noise.

2% of 100 is 2... sure not much. 2% of 200,000 copies is 4,000 copies.

Having said that... your cherry picking there... cause even that OLD article lists a bunch of games selling 5-6% Linux. These days the largest "AAA" Linux titles like Civ5 ect sell very strong.

These days being 2010? When is Linux getting Civ6?

 

[BulletDust]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Linux and OSX are both so closely related that if you can use OSX/macOS than you can use Linux. People like to claim that OSX is based on BSD and therefore more closely tied to Unix, but Linux is literally a Unix clone. I haven't found a single Unix command yet that didn't work on Linux.

I'd honestly go as far as to claim that the Unix kernel back in the 80's was better in a number of ways than the current NT kernel, at least it didn't rely on a damn registry of all things.

 

[ChadD]

Huh? Windows does the same thing as sudo if you're not running under an admin account. The problem is that when you buy a PC, someone's got to be the admin and yeah, there's nothing in Windows to really force the issue.

No no it does not.

Sudo is a simple program designed to allow users to do things as another user. The difference is the systems Admin has to be very specific in which users can do what. Yes most distros set you up a basic wheel group or whatever so switchers feel more at home I guess. However users setup that way still have some very important restrictions. Anyway no its sort of like Windows I guess, if you think Billy Ray Cyrus is on par with say Mozart. (ok perhaps Sudo isn't that great... still my point is made lol)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudo

 

[ChadD]

.....

Oh lol I guess it is 6... whatever the newest one is. I'm getting old man don't kill me. haha

 

[Snowdog]

Your right its not a fact. Its just a logical business move. I think MS has been extremely slow to react to lots of stuff the last few years, I don't however believe they are all morons. MS is not going to spend billions of R&D dollars keeping up with Linux development long term. Its bad business.

We know they are already transitioning their Largest systems to a Linux kernel Microsoft made solutions. We know because they have SAID so. Microsoft cloud services like MS office run on Microsoft Linux. That isn't something I pulled out of the air its a fact. A real one not an alternative one.

When you keep saying this stuff, you just portray the image of the blind zealot. Microsoft isn't switching kernels. It isn't logical. It isn't even sane.

Go read, your own link. It's about using Linux on Network Switches, where there isn't even a suitable Windows product. You need a stripped down product that they don't have. So Microsoft would have to start nearly from scratch, or they can just grab some free open source code that people already do the same thing with. Network switches aren't a Microsoft strength, they aren't even a Microsoft product.

That has no impact on Microsoft desktop business, or the kernel they use for it. On the desktop the have refined product perfect for the role, and they have the largest install base and the most software. More than 10X the size of the nearest competitor.

 

[BulletDust]

The other problem with Windows is that signed apps can bypass UAC. Yes, obtaining that licence is difficult, but it's possible - Just look at Stuxnet.

 

[Snowdog]

Oh lol I guess it is 6... whatever the newest one is. I'm getting old man don't kill me. haha

Civ6 from 2016 is not yet available on Linux. You are playing 2010 Civ5.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Actually it is often the other way around. Linux is a Hobby for many users. Windows just runs the software people need.

I used to feel that way too, but things have changed. It's not like Linux used to be where after five minutes you want your Windows machine back.

Even when it comes to gaming the situation is much much better. No, you won't have 100% of your Windows games, but 1/3 of my Steam library is Linux native without even touching Wine. I already have more than enough games to fill my free time, that makes it a viable gaming platform IMO.

Linux has crossed a threshold for viability and it's seems to be growing. I switched all my machines over back in October. I don't think I'm alone.

 

[ChadD]

Civ6 from 2016 is not yet available on Linux. You are playing 2010 Civ5.

Well damn you right I just went and looked. lol Got me there. I swore I just bought it... damn I'm either working to much or playing to much not sure. Sorry.

Doing a little reading it sounds like Aspyer (they put out the OSx version) is working on the Linux version... guess we'll see when it hits. I seem to remember CIV 5 was out not much more then a month or so after the game launched. They are getting slower that is never good.

 

[Snowdog]

I used to feel that way too, but things have changed. It's not like Linux used to be where after five minutes you want your Windows machine back.

Even when it comes to gaming the situation is much much better. No, you won't have 100% of your Windows games, but 1/3 of my Steam library is Linux native without even touching Wine. I already have more than enough games to fill my free time, that makes it a viable gaming platform IMO.

Linux has crossed a threshold for viability and it's seems to be growing. I switched all my machines over back in October. I don't think I'm alone.

Already covered, but saying you have enough games to fill free time is meaningless. You could probably buy and old commodore 64 at a garage sale and have enough games to fill your free time.

I like RPGs, How many of Fallout 3, New Vegas, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Dragon Age 1,2,3, Witcher 3 are available on Linux?

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Already covered, but saying you have enough games to fill free time is meaningless. You could probably buy and old commodore 64 at a garage sale and have enough games to fill your free time.

I like RPGs, How many of Fallout 3, New Vegas, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Dragon Age 1,2,3, Witcher 3 are available on Linux?

It's meaningless... because you don't think there are enough RPGs yet? I like games like Kerbal Space Program and Stellaris, and they run fine on Linux. What does an old machine like the C64 have to do with anything?

I'm on my phone but I know Dragon Age 1/2, Fallout 3/NV and Skyrim can play fine through Wine.

 

[Snowdog]

It's meaningless... because you don't think there are enough RPGs yet? I like games like Kerbal Space Program and Stellaris, and they run fine on Linux. What does an old machine like the C64 have to do with anything?

I'm on my phone but I know Dragon Age 1/2, Fallout 3/NV and Skyrim can play fine through Wine.

I see. On Linux, I am supposed to not play the games I like, and instead play ones that run fine on Linux.

Other than that, I can see why Linux users don't need many games to fill their free time.

Here is Configuring Fallout 3 for Wine:
http://www.gamersonlinux.com/forum/threads/fallout-3-guide.154/

Sure. Plays fine through wine. What a load of hassle, followed by seven more pages of comments from people having all kinds of problems.

I think this perfectly typifies the Linux Zealot mentality. They think this kind of battle to run something that should just work, is perfectly fine.

 

[ChadD]

I see. On Linux, I am supposed to not play the games I like, and instead play ones that run fine on Linux.

Other than that, I can see why Linux users don't need many games to fill their free time.

Here is Configuring Fallout 3 for Wine:
http://www.gamersonlinux.com/forum/threads/fallout-3-guide.154/

Sure. Plays fine through wine. What a load of hassle, followed by seven more pages of comments from people having all kinds of problems.

I think this perfectly typifies the Linux Zealot mentality. They think this kind of battle to run something that should just work, is perfectly fine.

Well that is a 3 year old article. That article is badly laid out it pretty much just showed every dialog box that pops up when you click install. lol

Wine 2.0 is out now, with much better DX 11 and DX 10 support. DX 9 games are pretty much old hat for wine now and in general don't require much other then click click click to get running.... sure there are tweaks for lots of games that very on user difficulty level, not sure how that is much different then any other OS. Never mind one where you are using an emulator to run software from another. It will be interesting to see what the Wine folks do now that DX 12 is open sourced.

Wine isn't perfect... its nice though for when you run 90% of your games in native Linux mode. Wine is a nice option rather then reboot to a windows partition to play X or Y old game. Wine is what it is its an emulator and it works pretty good most of the time. If you are installing Linux planning to run almost everything in Wine of course your doing things wrong.

I tell people to think of Wine as a newer version of DOSBox. The older the game the better it will run... not that people don't play the latest greatest in Wine it just takes more playing around. The newer the game the more likely it will be making DX calls that are not common in the software Wine has been built around and tested with. In general older DX 9 games run no issues at all no fancy settings required. Which for me is what I like to use wine for... when I have an itch to play an older game Wine does a great job.

 

[tetris42]

Except this just isn't true.

Windows is popular because it's literally forced onto the user, you buy a PC chances are it's got Windows pre installed - That doesn't make Windows better, it simply indicates that the consumer knows no better. So as a result of such forced marketing it's no wonder companies like Adobe love Windows.

I can assure you, Windows 7 support isn't going to last as long as you think it will, soon enough it won't be MS dropping support of the OS, it'll be the developers dropping support of the OS far before it's cut off date. It's what happened to XP and it'll definitely happen to Windows 7.

I think there's truth to both. Let's say Linux magically came installed on every system instead of Windows. That would steer things in a different direction and Linux might eventually win the day. But in the meantime, there would be a LOT of people switching back to Windows because Linux simply wouldn't cover their needs. I'd estimate at least 25% of users. Again, it's not because Windows would be that much better, it would be because there's software they need or want that Linux has no equivalent of. You're right in that Win7 won't be supported forever, but the way things are looking now, the bulk is going to be supporting Win10 instead for the desktop, with a minority for Linux, the way it's been for decades. I think from Linux users' perspective, things are better than ever on Linux now, and for non-Linux people, the market looks SLIGHTLY better for a lot of programs, but can still be safely ignored. It doesn't matter what developers like using or developing for, it matters where they can sell their software.

Furthermore, as I've stated in the past, there are a number of people that are only too happy to loose a percentage of games just so they could reclaim their PC back from Windows 10 - Not everyone loves Windows, especially Windows 10.

And like I said, it's about 1-2% of gamers willing to do that, based on Linux game sales. And that's assuming all of those people are giving up gaming on Windows ALSO. These are not significant numbers, these are sales that only exist because it's very easy for the developers to port over to Linux, so they figure why not. Any company I sure as hell don't love Windows 10, but I like the concept of not being able to run my games and programs even less.

Not many if any are made to make "quick money" for some terrible developer. Windows has lots of those because it has an install base that tends to get sucked in by a cool graphic or trailer.

Windows has tens of thousands of games available for it. Some of them are crap, some of them are masterpieces, genres of every kind; we've never had so many games available in history. Trying to characterize games for Windows v. Linux is a fools' errand. It's like saying DVD tends to favor one genre of movie over another. Windows just has more games because it has more users, period. For the glut of crappy ones Linux is missing, it's ALSO missing plenty of good ones also.

Having said that... your cherry picking there... cause even that OLD article lists a bunch of games selling 5-6% Linux.

Oh yeah, way back in ancient 2015. 5% was the high water mark, most were around 1-2% (from the 2015 version). If anything, the more well known the title was, the less percentage points it had for Linux sales. Steam shows less than 1% of OS's, but like it was stated, that doesn't include Steam machines. My guess is the real number is right around 1-2%. I've provided two sources, one straight from the mouths of devs themselves, with the more recent article 4x games I imagine get a couple more percentage points since they sort of fit the stereotype of the typical Linux user. I mean you talk about cherry picking, you're literally picking the highest listed numbers and providing no other source for Linux game sales data.

These days the largest "AAA" Linux titles like Civ5 ect sell very strong. For those guys the expense to "port" the game to Linux isn't very large to be honest. If the game was made in a modern 3rd party engine its a day of work perhaps if they didn't go way off script with the Engine SDKs. For the smaller studios... it is also not a ton of work to recompile for Linux. Lots of the indy developers are developing in Linux anyway and publishing games for IOS / Android and Windows from their.[/QUOTE]

I tell people to think of Wine as a newer version of DOSBox. The older the game the better it will run... not that people don't play the latest greatest in Wine it just takes more playing around. The newer the game the more likely it will be making DX calls that are not common in the software Wine has been built around and tested with. In general older DX 9 games run no issues at all no fancy settings required. Which for me is what I like to use wine for... when I have an itch to play an older game Wine does a great job.

See these are the sort of statements that get me riled up. You're comparing WINE to DOSbox. Dosbox enjoys maybe a 99.9% game compatibility rating? It's been YEARS since I've run into any DOS game that couldn't run on it, and even then, that was very rare. With WINE, I easily have a dozen or two titles not even listed in their database and it's not hard for me to find ones that have unplayable ratings. If Linux was in such a state where it couldn't run a lot of brand new games, but games that were 2+ years old were pretty much a sure thing of being able to run, I would honestly consider switching. I'm fine with waiting for compatbility, but I don't like waiting for support that's never going to come. DOSbox is a shining example of EXCELLENT compatibility. Unless support on WINE is currently so damn good that it's unheard of to find a game older than a couple years that WON'T run on it properly, this is a misleading comparison.

 

[Snowdog]

I think there's truth to both. Let's say Linux magically came installed on every system instead of Windows. That would steer things in a different direction and Linux might eventually win the day. But in the meantime, there would be a LOT of people switching back to Windows because Linux simply wouldn't cover their needs. I'd estimate at least 25% of users. Again, it's not because Windows would be that much better, it would be because there's software they need or want that Linux has no equivalent of. You're right in that Win7 won't be supported forever, but the way things are looking now, the bulk is going to be supporting Win10 instead for the desktop, with a minority for Linux, the way it's been for decades. I think from Linux users' perspective, things are better than ever on Linux now, and for non-Linux people, the market looks SLIGHTLY better for a lot of programs, but can still be safely ignored. It doesn't matter what developers like using or developing for, it matters where they can sell their software.

The "forced" argument is weak. I have owned PCs since 1993 when I put together my first 486, and not once did my PC come with Windows pre-installed. Now if you order a Dell Windows machine, you will get Windows. But Dell will sell you Linux PCs as well, see the "Operating System" box:
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/x...OS_BRAND=UBUNT&3x_page=1&filterCollapsed=true

The choice is there and easy to exercise. If your are totally oblivious, you might end up with Windows by default, and that is likely the proper thing to happen.

See these are the sort of statements that get me riled up. You're comparing WINE to DOSbox. .

Me too. I like Windows. I like Linux. I hate Linux and Windows zealots. IMO they accomplish the exact opposite of painting their platform in a good light with their antics. Linux being the smaller desktop platform tends to make it's advocates even more zealous and thus more annoying.