Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[ChadD]

I am observing that yours is the one that is most consistently wrong.

Check the comments at the bottom of the link you provided. One guy says thanks. Everyone else says there should be significant warnings about issues/side effects from DE switching.

Yet when you tell it, we get your standard BS that it just magically works without issue, install 8 of them and it all just works perfect: "your Disro is going to have a default Desktop setup, if you don't like it you can install with ONE click 7 or 8 other options and try them out... if you don't like them you can uninstall them with ONE click and you can run every single one on one system if you wish and change your Desktop daily, it will all just work."

It really gives me the impression you are trying to fool people who have never used Linux before.

It was the first thing that popped up in google. It is also 4 years old.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-mint-18-the-best-desktop-period/

Here a more recent article talking about Mint 18.

As I have said... and I am not lying Linux developers from every Distro have really been spending time making multiple DE a smoother experience for people that don't know enough about linux to type "xdg-mime default kde4/dolphin.desktop inode/directory" into a command line to set a default file manager.

http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2016/02/the-first-two-x-apps-are-ready/ This was a year ago now... The Mint team have done a lot of work making the major DE all work together well.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

Will you two - or maybe three - just get a room, please?

 

[Snowdog]

It was the first thing that popped up in google. It is also 4 years old.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-mint-18-the-best-desktop-period/

Here a more recent article talking about Mint 18.

As I have said... and I am not lying Linux developers from every Distro have really been spending time making multiple DE a smoother experience for people that don't know enough about linux to type "xdg-mime default kde4/dolphin.desktop inode/directory" into a command line to set a default file manager.

http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2016/02/the-first-two-x-apps-are-ready/ This was a year ago now... The Mint team have done a lot of work making the major DE all work together well.

And the second link I provided was from a couple of months ago (2016/Nov).

When you make of pattern or pretending there are no issues at all, your trust factor gets lower.

Though at this point you may as well carry on, you have no trust factor left.

 

[heatlesssun]

Rationalise?! You're far too biased to rationalize.

So I readily admit that most people that use Windows on PCs could use Linux most likely as easily as they could Windows. Even easier as these users would be far better protected from local Windows malware. But when I point out at the higher end of the PC spectrum like higher end gaming, where people spend thousands of dollars on hardware to drive a PC hard to play games and how inadequate Linux is for that purpose, I'm biased because well, maybe because desktop Linux can't run much of the stuff?

 

[heatlesssun]

And the second link I provided was from a couple of months ago (2016/Nov).

When you make of pattern or pretending there are no issues at all, your trust factor gets lower.

Though at this point you may as well carry on, you have no trust factor left.

Install Linux and all of your problems go away. Along with most of your software. And Windows 10 gets reamed for not reinstalling everything after a major upgrade that can usually be reinstalled easily.

 

[BulletDust]

So I readily admit that most people that use Windows on PCs could use Linux most likely as easily as they could Windows. Even easier as these users would be far better protected from local Windows malware. But when I point out at the higher end of the PC spectrum like higher end gaming, where people spend thousands of dollars on hardware to drive a PC hard to play games and how inadequate Linux is for that purpose, I'm biased because well, maybe because desktop Linux can't run much of the stuff?

Hang on.

We've been over and over this subject, time and time again. I'm well aware of what you are attempting to imply, however it means little to anyone tired of Windows and wanting to make a change to something else entirely. I raise this point, you ignore it. In fact any point I raise and back up with evidence you ignore or just keep chanting the same rhetoric if that point is pro Linux and biased against Microsoft.

If you want to see my opinion on the point above go back through the thread, otherwise I am over discussing anything related to 'opinion' with you. I am sick of reiterating myself, it's something I don't even need to do with my 6yo as often as I have to do it with you - There's just pages and pages of the same shit clogging up the thread because you refuse to accept evidenced points of argument and rationalise.

I disagree with your opinion completely, with good reason, and refuse to go round and round again defending myself.

 

[heatlesssun]

Will you two - or maybe three - just get a room, please?

All in good fun. I'm the Windows zealot but I'm not telling or suggesting or anything else to people who want to or who are using Linux that they should do a damned thing. It works for them, they're happy, so be it.

I'm happy with Windows 10. And I've heard all the reasons I shouldn't be and ok. So when I ask about alternatives, "VR is about people waving their hands in the air." "I don't play AAA games." "I never heard of OneNote and don't know anyone who does." Time and time again, this argument seems to be between Linux folks who don't give a rats ass about anything other than people using Linux who don't give a shit about what people do with their PCs and whatever they're doing with their PCs, if it doesn't run on Linux and you haven' invested 2 years into making it, you're a Microsoft zealot.

 

[BulletDust]

Will you two - or maybe three - just get a room, please?

No need. He can talk to himself for all I care.

 

[BulletDust]

All in good fun. I'm the Windows zealot but I'm not telling or suggesting or anything else to people who want to or who are using Linux that they should do a damned thing. It works for them, they're happy, so be it.

I'm happy with Windows 10. And I've heard all the reasons I shouldn't be and ok. So when I ask about alternatives, "VR is about people waving their hands in the air." "I don't play AAA games." "I never heard of OneNote and don't know anyone who does." Time and time again, this argument seems to be between Linux folks who don't give a rats ass about anything other than people using Linux who don't give a shit about what people do with their PCs and whatever they're doing with their PCs, if it doesn't run on Linux and you haven' invested 2 years into making it, you're a Microsoft zealot.

Fine.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

We've been over and over this subject, time and time again.

Now learn from it.

 

[BulletDust]

Now learn from it.

Learn?!

If anyone talks generalized shit in relation to anything I will correct them. It's that simple.

 

[heatlesssun]

Hang on.

We've been over and over this subject, time and time again. I'm well aware of what you are attempting to imply, however it means little to anyone tired of Windows and wanting to make a change to something else entirely. I raise this point, you ignore it.

Nope. If people don't like Windows and what to use Linux, when have I spoken out against that? What I do speak against is ignoring the obvious strengths of Windows, PC gaming support being perhaps the single greatest strength of Windows? Half-assed solutions that are going nowhere because it's obvious that they are going no where, that's not bias.

I disagree with your opinion completely, with good reason, and refuse to go round and round again defending myself.

So you disagree that people that just need a PC for things like web browsing or basic content creation, you disagree with me that these folks would have the fewest problems moving over to Linux FULL TIME. That these are people that could do it successfully with the fewest issues? You completely disagree with that?

 

[BulletDust]

Nope. If people don't like Windows and what to use Linux, when have I spoken out against that? What I do speak against is ignoring the obvious strengths of Windows, PC gaming support being perhaps the single greatest strength of Windows? Half-assed solutions that are going nowhere because it's obvious that they are going no where, that's not bias.



So you disagree that people that just need a PC for things like web browsing or basic content creation, you disagree with me that these folks would have the fewest problems moving over to Linux FULL TIME. That these are people that could do it successfully with the fewest issues? You completely disagree with that?

Not interested mate.

 

[heatlesssun]

If anyone talks generalized shit in relation to anything I will correct them. It's that simple.

LOL! And that's the thing. The people that disagree with you are arguing in the most specific terms possible. You said not long ago you never heard of OneNote and to this day don't know anyone who does. Fine. I've been using OneNote for well over a decade and have been looking into Linux OneNote alternatives before you even heard of it.

 

[tetris42]

I got some windows users arguing about UI at least.... Win for the Linux guy.

It does prove my point though... the multiple Desktop environments that some believe to be a Linux weakness. Is quite the opposite. I can make Linux look just like XP or Win 7 or Mac or a Unix server from 1971. Or like a modern version of Linux. Log out Log in and I have a new UI again. Not sure Microsoft could really do it the same way to be honest. The way their OS is coded everything is all linked and tied together with messy DLLs and Registries. It highlights another advantage of Linux that gets listed as a conn by some Windows boosters. The modularity of its development. It may seem fragmented to someone not really familiar with how Linux fits together. Its why we say yes Android is Linux and some argue it isn't. It is running the Linux kernel on a Linux file system... Google has changed out the UI interface and init system. That doesn't not make it Linux, its just another (more locked down) distro.

Oh this has been a chip on my shoulder a long time. I've always wanted the GUI to be as efficient as possible, and after a point, you run into a lot of hard barriers in Windows in order to do things differently. I was hoping Windows 8 was where MS would overhaul everything, make everything DPI-friendly, and just make everything future-thinking in terms of the GUI, similar to the upheaval MacOS went through. Not even close.

I totally agree. The GUI situation is a matter of mass production. And in the case of Windows 8 moving into Windows 10, a GUI that's trying to work on devices Windows was never originally designed for. Which is obviously problematic. But in the middle of trying to make Windows work with different input capabilities for which it was never intended while simultaneously supporting UIs that don't work well with those new input capabilities? The only solution that will make everyone happy is to support every UI that's ever been in Windows, keep those fresh and then support UI capabilities that don't work with the classical ones. When you think it through it's a mess whichever way you go unless you just stick to a desktop design solely for a keyboard and pointing device.

And that's why a lot of people say Apple is doing it right with different OSes. At this point there's too many Windows devices that work with touch and pen to go back.



Sure, and Windows 8 didn't do it right but Windows 10, is it really that far off, at least with the basics from Windows 95? I'd say not as much as some would say.

We're talking about two different topics now. I think it's way WAY overdue to just open up the GUI and let Windows run and look however people want it to, but maintain their own standard. What you're talking about is the changes they themselves have made to the classic Win95 design with 8 and 10. I'm not disagreeing with anything there, since I was never using it to begin with. I feel like MS should support and maintain their own standard, but not make things such a pain in the ass for users to customize their own system.

This thread proves how stupid human beings are. Seriously. Windows 10 with Classic Shell here on 6 machines.

Yeah, except that's not the whole scope of the conversation. Classic shell doesn't get you popup menu scrolling, FULLY customizable shortcuts, dock taskbar replacement, complete control over the systray, windows behavior, the list goes on and on. I mean hell, the media was hyping up virtual desktops on Windows 10, even though that's been available on other Windows shells for I don't know, 10-15 years (longer on Linux)? I can appreciate if you don't care about any of that, but so much more is possible for GUIs than the Windows norm.

 

[BulletDust]

LOL! And that's the thing. The people that disagree with you are arguing in the most specific terms possible. You said not long ago you never heard of OneNote and to this day don't know anyone who does. Fine. I've been using OneNote for well over a decade and have been looking into Linux OneNote alternatives before you even heard of it.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[heatlesssun]

We're talking about two different topics now. I think it's way WAY overdue to just open up the GUI and let Windows run and look however people want it to, but maintain their own standard. What you're talking about is the changes they themselves have made to the classic Win95 design with 8 and 10. I'm not disagreeing with anything there, since I was never using it to begin with. I feel like MS should support and maintain their own standard, but not make things such a pain in the ass to customize their own system.

There are TONS of UI customizations out there for Windows. I just picked up on Steam yesterday called Wallpaper Engine. Not really tried it yet. I admit that I'm really not into these kinds of things because that's not my main focus with Windows. The more options the better but that does add complexity. Windows 10 has a ton of options that are supposed to allow it to work well with tablets and desktops, more options in that area than any client OS to date. And that still not enough. And I get that, options to completely ignore everything and be just like Windows 7, until some wants an app from the Windows Store. Yeah sure, no one would ever want a Netflix app. And then WTF?

It just gets complicated to the point where you really need lots of different versions of Windows. One for desktops, one for tablets, one for 2 in 1s, and then people wonder why the thing for a 2 in 1 doesn't work on desktop.

 

[heatlesssun]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Again, at this level it's not about opinion. It's about what are the alternatives. Your alternative to VR is that it's silly because it's just about people waving their hands in the air.

 

[BulletDust]

Again, at this level it's not about opinion. It's about what are the alternatives. Your alternative to VR is that it's silly because it's just about people waving their hands in the air.

Yeah, no problem. [rolleyes]

 

[heatlesssun]

Yeah, no problem. [rolleyes]

It's all good. Honestly I'm at something at a loss as exactly what pro-desktop Linux folks like you want. I've been doing this a long time. I get the rivalries and factions that form in this business. I try to look at all that I can and comprehend what's going on. And as I've said many times, this Linux vs. Windows debate on the desktop is ancient. I don't see any fundamental difference in the strengths and weaknesses of desktop Linux and Windows today than what's been debated for 20 years.

I've long conceded that people with basic PC needs, the large bulk of PC users would probably be fine with Linux. And for some reason desktop Linux folks don't seem to be happy with that. For some reason it's always been about Windows users with needs that Linux folks never heard of. Or don't care about.

 

[heatlesssun]

One will follow the other though. MS knows this which is why they tried so hard... even to the detriment of desktop sales with Win 8 to try and bridge the gap and steal back the mobile sector.

You forget Windows XP Tablet PC Edition. Microsoft had a interest in developing x86 tablet PCs long before iOS or Android. And admittedly those efforts weren't successful, however they had an EXTREMELY loyal following, particularly those that has interest in digital pens.

Yes for now gaming is better in Windows... we can argue that Linux is good enough, gets the games we tend to like on PCs and is supported by free developers that we want to $upport. Still sure we do have to concede that for now at least and for likely a few more years Windows will be the best place for the newest AAA style games. However will that be the case if the install base isn't using Windows for everything anymore. Right now if I publish a game that I expect to sell 100,000 PC copies... I know only 10% of those people will be gamers of the "hardcore" variety that have a GPU that is less then a year old and 3x the min spec requirements. Everyone else will likely be short of the recommended spec for the game. As more people abandon the idea of a full size Desktop and only own Laptops and smartphones... who are those game developers going to target ? I mean we already know the answer as they target PS4 and Xbox.... game publishers aren't stupid they understand only a small % of their purchases are by people running super high end PCs.

All of this means nothing is 95% of all PC gamers are running a common platform at some level. Somewhere around 90% of all PC gamers can be reached today with DX 11. And the thing about PC gamers, the top end buys a LOT of stuff relative to everyone else, especially hardware. I'm not even a big deal in this place and I've probably spent like $30k on PC hardware in this century targeted at playing PC games.

 

[tetris42]

There are TONS of UI customizations out there for Windows. I just picked up on Steam yesterday called Wallpaper Engine. Not really tried it yet. I admit that I'm really not into these kinds of things because that's not my main focus with Windows. The more options the better but that does add complexity. Windows 10 has a ton of options that are supposed to allow it to work well with tablets and desktops, more options in that area than any client OS to date. And that still not enough. And I get that, options to completely ignore everything and be just like Windows 7, until some wants an app from the Windows Store. Yeah sure, no one would ever want a Netflix app. And then WTF?

It just gets complicated to the point where you really need lots of different versions of Windows. One for desktops, one for tablets, one for 2 in 1s, and then people wonder why the thing for a 2 in 1 doesn't work on desktop.

You don't get it, modifying your wallpaper isn't even on the same scale of what I'm talking about. If you replace the desktop shell, you have to recreate functionality for the taskbar, start menu, systray, amongst a load of other things. But even that does NOTHING for the windows behavior and customization itself. And THAT does nothing about how icons are displayed and all kinds of other aspects. It's all a giant mess. And I'll also say the GUI customization options for Windows are all either:

1. Very limited
2. Very hacky

sometimes both. As for there being tons of options, let me say Windows does its damndest to break options with every new generation. For WinXP, there really were a lot of options, even if they were limited. Windows 7 / Vista saw those options DRASTICALLY reduced. I don't think it's even recovered since then. I mean can you name 3 shell replacements for Windows 10 that do anything BESIDES restore the classic start menu / taskbar? I mean what would I run today if I wanted Windows to look like this or this. The answer is you can't unless you run half a dozen programs that are almost certainly going to be glitchy, if they even work at all, and may fight each other, but will DEFINITELY give you incomplete coverage. GUI customization on Windows may be a worse situation than gaming on Linux. Windows has strengths, but that's not one of them, it's not even close at all. Say what you will about Linux, it has MANY themes that look infinitely better than anything that MS comes up with. While their GUI decisions are sometimes questionable, it's also modifiable, so bad decisions don't have to be permanent (at least that's my perception, Snowdog may have more real world insight on it). While some are ugly or impractical, I think Linux has had some really great GUI designs along the way. This is one of the reasons I care about this topic, it's such an obvious shortcoming of Linux compared to Windows. Now granted, that's not half as important as actually being able to run the programs I need, but it's certainly something that's stuck out to me for a while.

 

[ChadD]

You forget Windows XP Tablet PC Edition. Microsoft had a interest in developing x86 tablet PCs long before iOS or Android. And admittedly those efforts weren't successful, however they had an EXTREMELY loyal following, particularly those that has interest in digital pens.

All of this means nothing is 95% of all PC gamers are running a common platform at some level. Somewhere around 90% of all PC gamers can be reached today with DX 11. And the thing about PC gamers, the top end buys a LOT of stuff relative to everyone else, especially hardware. I'm not even a big deal in this place and I've probably spent like $30k on PC hardware in this century targeted at playing PC games.

I said steal back. Implying it was stolen from them.

My point about windows games is simple. If the number of actual desktops drops and the desktop is the only market MS sells windows on. (which right now is the only market they dominate). Then AAA gamers no longer support windows desktops in the same way... at the very least they stop doing windows exclusives.

Why would a developer go out of their way to support windows if the market shinks to a point where 90% of the people are gaming on mobile and consoles. Developers already target the consoles now.
If a few years down the road mobile increases and desktops decline more as I suggest. Yes the % of desktop users with higher end game machines will go up but the pool of potential customers still goes down. If most of those people are running mobile platforms, that will become the target of the game houses.

I mentioned it before... keep your eye on the Switch. I know the switch seems odd and strange to most of us. If it sells like the wii did.... game developers are going to target it. At the end of the day the Switch is just a high end mobile device running the tegra. We know it will be capable of games like Skyrim SE... and yes I know I know there are newer games. The bottom line is the masses don't care for the most part. People just want to play fun games. If the game development industry realizes the vast majority of customers are open to them via Nintendo and the Android markets... that will be who they will target, as it will make them the most profit.

The Xbox and PS have been terrible for PC gaming in general IMO. Developers have been targeting that hardware. The switch may possibly be the beginning of the end of main stream big budget PC gaming. I do think developers are taking note that many of their 50+ million budget AAA games are not making them the profits they would like. If they can produce 3 or 4 Switch / Mobile games on the same budget it won't bode well for 'PC" style games. Having said that I am honestly hoping that is exactly what happens... its about time game developers remember its the game that matters not how fast it can overheat a 1080.

 

[heatlesssun]

You don't get it, modifying your wallpaper isn't even on the same scale of what I'm talking about. If you replace the desktop shell, you have to recreate functionality for the taskbar, start menu, systray, amongst a load of other things. But even that does NOTHING for the windows behavior and customization itself. And THAT does nothing about how icons are displayed and all kinds of other aspects. It's all a giant mess. And I'll also say the GUI customization options for Windows are all either:

1. Very limited
2. Very hacky

sometimes both. As for there being tons of options, let me say Windows does its damndest to break options with every new generation. For WinXP, there really were a lot of options, even if they were limited. Windows 7 / Vista saw those options DRASTICALLY reduced. I don't think it's even recovered since then. I mean can you name 3 shell replacements for Windows 10 that do anything BESIDES restore the classic start menu / taskbar? I mean what would I run today if I wanted Windows to look like this or this. The answer is you can't unless you run half a dozen programs that are almost certainly going to be glitchy, if they even work at all, and may fight each other, but will DEFINITELY give you incomplete coverage. GUI customization on Windows may be a worse situation than gaming on Linux. Windows has strengths, but that's not one of them, it's not even close at all. Say what you will about Linux, it has MANY themes that look infinitely better than anything that MS comes up with. While their GUI decisions are sometimes questionable, it's also modifiable, so bad decisions don't have to be permanent (at least that's my perception, Snowdog may have more real world insight on it). While some are ugly or impractical, I think Linux has had some really great GUI designs along the way. This is one of the reasons I care about this topic, it's such an obvious shortcoming of Linux compared to Windows. Now granted, that's not half as important as actually being able to run the programs I need, but it's certainly something that's stuck out to me for a while.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. All I'm saying is that I really think this is beyond niche. Look at how much blow back Microsoft is getting over UIs. So exactly how many UIs should Microsoft invest in? People who really are "entrenched" in Windows, they either get confused over ever little aspect of a UI or quickly adapt to whatever UI Microsoft throws at them so they can run their software. And I've said for years that this a strength of Linux. It's just not one that really resonates beyond these kinds of debates.

Really, how many people in these discussions just want a UI like Windows 7. I'd love Microsoft to give it to them. Many a Linux distro has copied that UI well. The UI in Windows is not why people use Windows. People use Windows for only these reasons.

1. It's what came with the machine.
2. It's what you need to run the software you want to.

That's it. Period.

 

[heatlesssun]

I said steal back. Implying it was stolen from them.

My point about windows games is simple. If the number of actual desktops drops and the desktop is the only market MS sells windows on. (which right now is the only market they dominate). Then AAA gamers no longer support windows desktops in the same way... at the very least they stop doing windows exclusives.

Why would a developer go out of their way to support windows if the market shinks to a point where 90% of the people are gaming on mobile and consoles. Developers already target the consoles now.
If a few years down the road mobile increases and desktops decline more as I suggest. Yes the % of desktop users with higher end game machines will go up but the pool of potential customers still goes down. If most of those people are running mobile platforms, that will become the target of the game houses.

I mentioned it before... keep your eye on the Switch. I know the switch seems odd and strange to most of us. If it sells like the wii did.... game developers are going to target it. At the end of the day the Switch is just a high end mobile device running the tegra. We know it will be capable of games like Skyrim SE... and yes I know I know there are newer games. The bottom line is the masses don't care for the most part. People just want to play fun games. If the game development industry realizes the vast majority of customers are open to them via Nintendo and the Android markets... that will be who they will target, as it will make them the most profit.

The Xbox and PS have been terrible for PC gaming in general IMO. Developers have been targeting that hardware. The switch may possibly be the beginning of the end of main stream big budget PC gaming. I do think developers are taking note that many of their 50+ million budget AAA games are not making them the profits they would like. If they can produce 3 or 4 Switch / Mobile games on the same budget it won't bode well for 'PC" style games. Having said that I am honestly hoping that is exactly what happens... its about time game developers remember its the game that matters not how fast it can overheat a 1080.

This is just a random jumble of things that have been said for years. You're comparing a Switch to devices in a DIY PC site that's got all kinds of tech available? That's not to mean the Switch won't be a great device, for what it is, but it's not going to touch a top line DIY PC.

 

[ChadD]

While their GUI decisions are sometimes questionable, it's also modifiable, so bad decisions don't have to be permanent (at least that's my perception, Snowdog may have more real world insight on it). While some are ugly or impractical, I think Linux has had some really great GUI designs along the way. This is one of the reasons I care about this topic, it's such an obvious shortcoming of Linux compared to Windows. Now granted, that's not half as important as actually being able to run the programs I need, but it's certainly something that's stuck out to me for a while.

Default looks can often be pretty bad yes. No Linux booster (ok perhaps no is strong) will argue that things look great always out of the box with most distros. Some are ugly by default and some are known for being pretty. Not my cup of tea but most people love the look of https://elementary.io/ not sure how that works out myself.

Things can be very customized with Linux... of course it isn't often fantastic looking out of the box.
Manjaro Manjaro Mint Mint Manjaro Manjaro Manjaro Kaos KDE KDE Plasma Mint
You get the idea... Linux gets knocked sometimes for having ugly fonts or ugly this or that. It does give you the power to make it look exactly how you like, and if you get bored of the system font or icons change it Linux lets you do that.

 

[ChadD]

This is just a random jumble of things that have been said for years. You're comparing a Switch to devices in a DIY PC site that's got all kinds of tech available? That's not to mean the Switch won't be a great device, for what it is, but it's not going to touch a top line DIY PC.

I never claimed it would.

I said if it sells gangbusters ala the wii.

Desktop gaming is going to suffer... because developers are going to target it. The fact that games targeting it will also run on the newer latest greatest phones hitting the market over the next few years will be even more reason for publishers to target them. Its about who will buy your software at the end of the day. The Wii sold almost 9 million units in the first 2 years it was on the market. If the switch gets half of that and sells 4 or 5 million units, and the Android manufacturers sell the same number of phones with higher end GPUs in the same time frame. Then developers are going to shift development to those platforms. Its simple economics.

EDIT correction... the wii sold 20 million units in its first year and a half. So if they manage 8-10 million Switch units in the by the end of 2018 and Samsung and Apple ship ship around 50x that in phones capable of playing the same games. I think you can understand how this is going to effect you as a PC gamer.

 

[BulletDust]

It's all good. Honestly I'm at something at a loss as exactly what pro-desktop Linux folks like you want. I've been doing this a long time. I get the rivalries and factions that form in this business. I try to look at all that I can and comprehend what's going on. And as I've said many times, this Linux vs. Windows debate on the desktop is ancient. I don't see any fundamental difference in the strengths and weaknesses of desktop Linux and Windows today than what's been debated for 20 years.

I've long conceded that people with basic PC needs, the large bulk of PC users would probably be fine with Linux. And for some reason desktop Linux folks don't seem to be happy with that. For some reason it's always been about Windows users with needs that Linux folks never heard of. Or don't care about.

We've got what we want, that's why we don't need Windows anymore. I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

Some class AAA gaming as a waste of expensive PC hardware.

 

[auntjemima]

I'm fairly certain everyone knows about classic shell. the fact remains that it's literally a hack and stability cannot be guaranteed especially between updates as MS has a tendency to break everything between updates. So, for example, while it's fine to use such hacks on your own personal machine they're something I could never use on a clients machine if there's even the slightest chance of it introducing an issue due to Microsoft's overhanded tactics.

Just on the "break everything between updates" comment... I have been running Windows 10 on my Venue 8 Pro tablet since the beta builds and not once have I experienced this phenomenon you so quickly spout 10 times a day.

Remember all those "it just works" posts you made about Linux? Isn't this the same situation, exactly? Where one person experiences something that others don't?

Rabble rabble. I was going somewhere with this and lost it. I'll come back later when I can sort it out lol

 

[BulletDust]

Just on the "break everything between updates" comment... I have been running Windows 10 on my Venue 8 Pro tablet since the beta builds and not once have I experienced this phenomenon you so quickly spout 10 times a day.

Remember all those "it just works" posts you made about Linux? Isn't this the same situation, exactly? Where one person experiences something that others don't?

Rabble rabble. I was going somewhere with this and lost it. I'll come back later when I can sort it out lol

As someone that repairs Windows machines for a living, I can assure you I've got fairly good exposure to the faults relating to Windows 10. If you had issues with Linux that's unfortunate, if you're able to claim no issue with Windows 10 am I allowed to claim no issue with Linux?

 

[auntjemima]

As someone that repairs Windows machines for a living, I can assure you I've got fairly good exposure to the faults relating to Windows 10. If you had issues with Linux that's unfortunate, if you're able to claim no issue with Windows 10 am I allowed to claim no issue with Linux?

I think that was where my argument ended up... It's almost like my initial point got lost... I sometimes start a rant and half way through realise that I am only providing help to the other side. Weird.

 

[heatlesssun]

I never claimed it would.

I said if it sells gangbusters ala the wii.

Desktop gaming is going to suffer... because developers are going to target it.

And the first victim of suffering in the PC gaming space is always going to Linux. But I'm being told that Linux gaming is "exploding". So I don't see the Switch having a lot to do with this particular debate. The Switch isn't even VR capable so it's not even in the same gaming space I'm currently in.

 

[Snowdog]

So if they manage 8-10 million Switch units in the by the end of 2018 and Samsung and Apple ship ship around 50x that in phones capable of playing the same games. I think you can understand how this is going to effect you as a PC gamer.

No effect at all.

Different markets, different developers.

PC gaming market is stronger than ever. 2016 was the biggest year for PC gaming HW ever.

 

[heatlesssun]

We've got what we want, that's why we don't need Windows anymore. I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

Some class AAA gaming as a waste of expensive PC hardware.

I never was debating what YOU want. From a gaming perspective, Windows gets all that you want and five times more. And there's very little to push PC hardware in the Linux gaming space. So yeah, as a Linux diehard, there's no reason to buy expensive hardware for PC gaming. I'd have never spent a lot of money on hardware to run Linux natively, especially for gaming. On that maybe we agree?

 

[BulletDust]

I never was debating what YOU want. From a gaming perspective, Windows gets all that you want and five times more. And there's very little to push PC hardware in the Linux gaming space. So yeah, as a Linux diehard, there's no reason to buy expensive hardware for PC gaming. I'd have never spent a lot of money on hardware to run Linux natively, especially for gaming. On that maybe we agree?

I agree in relation to yourself and your own perspective. I don't agree that your own perspective relates to everyone whatsoever. I know that gaming under Linux is growing as the statistics and obviously increasing number of titles on Steam and GoG prove it. I know that there's going to be a number of users that will happily switch from Windows to Linux as long as support continues to grow, and I see no evidence of it slowing at all. I don't agree that comparing Windows growth to Linux growth is a fair or even relevant comparison.

I'm not going to budge from that point of view, are you?

 

[heatlesssun]

No effect at all.

Different markets, different developers.

PC gaming market is stronger than ever. 2016 was the biggest year for PC gaming HW ever.

I get a lot of blow back from Bullet on this, but I'm simply telling me experience on this. A lot of new stuff came out in 2016, my main rig was way old, and so spent about $8k from last June to December on my current setup. And yeah, running the evil Windows 10. Fuck. It's been the best PC experience I've had. Triple 144hz 3D monitors (you know the old nVidia 3D Vision which is still cool for 3D BD) on side of my office, a cheapo Samsung 6290 on the other side, which gets great praise in this forum for it's price, and all the rest.

I know of now desktop Linux distro that could begin to support all of this hardware for the intended purpose. And what's insane about it is that I'm called a Microsoft zealot, but there's no Microsoft branding on ANY hardware I bought in 2016 that's in this sig rig. None. However, under a Linux distro, can the pro-desktop Linux folks around here tell me what I could expect from this hardware?

With Windows 10 that was never even in question. It all "just worked". I've searched the constantly for YEARS to see how the kind of hardware I use would work under Linux. Constantly. For years. And there's always problems reported in forums or YouTube or Reddit. Huge problems. And the responses to fixing them tend to be FU.

So use what you want to, but I'm fucking tired of a community that for 20 years has promised a better desktop experience than what Windows has and then just endlessly debates shit while as flawed as Windows is, Windows eats it's lunch and at least has people that care about peoples' needs and isn't a political movement.

 

[BulletDust]

I get a lot of blow back from Bullet on this, but I'm simply telling me experience on this. A lot of new stuff came out in 2016, my main rig was way old, and so spent about $8k from last June to December on my current setup. And yeah, running the evil Windows 10. Fuck. It's been the best PC experience I've had. Triple 144hz 3D monitors (you know the old nVidia 3D Vision which is still cool for 3D BD) on side of my office, a cheapo Samsung 6290 on the other side, which gets great praise in this forum for it's price, and all the rest.

I know of now desktop Linux distro that could begin to support all of this hardware for the intended purpose. And what's insane about it is that I'm called a Microsoft zealot, but there's no Microsoft branding on ANY hardware I bought in 2016 that's in this sig rig. None. However, under a Linux distro, can the pro-desktop Linux folks around here tell me what I could expect from this hardware?

With Windows 10 that was never even in question. It all "just worked". I've searched the constantly for YEARS to see how the kind of hardware I use would work under Linux. Constantly. For years. And there's always problems reported in forums or YouTube or Reddit. Huge problems. And the responses to fixing them tend to be FU.

So use what you want to, but I'm fucking tired of a community that for 20 years has promised a better desktop experience than what Windows has and then just endlessly debates shit while as flawed as Windows is, Windows eats it's lunch and at least has people that care about peoples' needs and isn't a political movement.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[heatlesssun]

I agree in relation to yourself and your own perspective. I don't agree that your own perspective relates to everyone whatsoever.

My perspective is mine, your perspective is yours. I never said either was inherently superior.

I don't agree that comparing Windows growth to Linux growth is a fair or even relevant comparison.

How in the hell in a thread titled "Thinking about Windows 10 alternatives" comparing Windows to Linux an unfair comparison? It's in the freeking title.

I'm not going to budge from that point of view, are you?

You're entitled to your opinion. But you can't get all up in a knot about comparisons between Windows and Linux in a thread titled "Thinking about Windows 10 alternatives".

 

[BulletDust]

My perspective is mine, your perspective is yours. I never said either was inherently superior.



How in the hell in a thread titled "Thinking about Windows 10 alternatives" comparing Windows to Linux an unfair comparison? It's in the freeking title.



You're entitled to your opinion. But you can't get all up in a knot about comparisons between Windows and Linux in a thread titled "Thinking about Windows 10 alternatives".

Not interested mate. I've stated my opinion and it still stands.

 

[ChadD]

And the first victim of suffering in the PC gaming space is always going to Linux. But I'm being told that Linux gaming is "exploding". So I don't see the Switch having a lot to do with this particular debate. The Switch isn't even VR capable so it's not even in the same gaming space I'm currently in.

Sure and when Nintendo adds it at some point... as they have hinted. The industry will target the switch and android day dream 3 to 1... seeing as I just read a Hard article about how Samsung + Google are currently outselling either of the PC VR options by at least that margin. I am not sure it will be desktop VR that is going to be the big seller. IMO if VR catches on it will be the Android variety. Now don't ask me how Nintendo plans to do VR with a switch, I can't imagine anyone really strapping one of those to their face and the screen resolution would be an issue... it would have to be something like a playstation solution. Who knows. VR is still in its infancy. If it is going to take off I can't imagine it will have much to do with the desktop solutions.