Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[BulletDust]

They'd probably do alright in the mobile sector if it wasn't for their pricing model, their devices are simply too expensive, it the same thing working against Apple with the new MacBook Pro and their rubbish bin looking Mac Pro desktop unit.

Personally I'd like to know how they expect to charge for Windows if Windows 10 is supposed to be the final version. If they plan on a subscription based model it could very well Backfire badly on them.

 

[Snowdog]

. Every company that uses it makes it better by contributing their bit if required to the Kernel team. Long term Windows won't be able to compete with the pace of its development. Unless they open source their kernel instead of useless things like .net and dx and somehow convince a ton of competitors to develop the windows kernel for them. I still stand by what I said 10+ pages ago... at some point MS is likely to adopt the Linux Kernel.

There isn't anything stopping them ... its free to use. They are free to develop their own Windows DE close it as tight as they would like as google has done. At some point MS is going to be forced to make major changes to windows such as finally dumping NTFS, I would imagine that would be the perfect time to switch as everyone will be clean installing anyway. (especially if they can push a good number of users to things like Windows Cloud... by forcing UWP software usage they make backwards compatability a non issue, as they could easy have the required code added to the kernel) I know I sound crazy again... but think about it. It means MS can take any money they spend on kernel development right now and hack and slash staff.

You say a lot of things that are utterly out to lunch, but Microsoft replacing the Windows Kernel with the Linux Kernel is absolute lunacy.

The Linux Kernel development is a MESS.
Linus calls Linux 'bloated and huge'

Citing an internal Intel study that tracked kernel releases, Bottomley said Linux performance had dropped about two percentage points at every release, for a cumulative drop of about 12 per cent over the last ten releases. "Is this a problem?" he asked.

"We're getting bloated and huge. Yes, it's a problem," said Torvalds.
"I mean, sometimes it's a bit sad that we are definitely not the streamlined, small, hyper-efficient kernel that I envisioned 15 years ago...The kernel is huge and bloated, and our icache footprint is scary. I mean, there is no question about that. And whenever we add a new feature, it only gets worse."

The Linux Kernel. To Infinity and Beyond!

I suppose Microsoft should get in early before the Linux Kernel fills up the Universe with it's ever expanding size.

BTW File system updates are essentially trivial and could be done in place if necessary. It looks like Apple will soon be swapping the file system in iOS and most users won't even know. Not that NTFS seems that problematic.

 

[Frobozz]

I think the moves we've seen recently (Linux Foundation, open sourcing .NET parts, SQL Server on Linux, etc..) are moves to shore up Azure and add MS relevancy in others cloud offerings. IMO, these moves are unlikely to show up on the desktop in any meaningful way unless we see additional moves in the datacenter. Ex. You'd see them bring up their own Linux distribution in support of MS SQLServer to square off against Oracle a bit better.

If there was a jumping off point for flipping the core underpinnings on the desktop, it would grow from that, and it'd be combined with something that lets you market it obviously different to the public - A unique form factor, or a ridiculous advantage from a technology change (ARM v.20 is just amazing). Even then, I doubt they'd really try to drag their actual Explorer code along. They'd be better off forking an existing DE and make it their own. They could then leverage their partnerships made by collaborating in the datacenter to smooth out experience deficiencies without having to maintain the entire operating system, which might might be a desirable destination from a staffing and personnel perspective.
(yay layoffs for the bottom line)

Overall, I don't see the MS Linux desktop on the horizon at all. If so, it's something that would grow and mature in their datacenter offerings first.
*IMO

 

[heatlesssun]

A Linux user wouldn't have heard of MS made software ? Sounds crazy. Whats next are you going to tell me Mac Users don't know every useless MS program either.

If one is going to discuss alternatives to Windows 10 it might actually help to understand the things people do with it maybe? What's been debated from the other side here is that moving to Linux is the easy part. The hard part is all of the hardware and software support issues to contend with if you do play games or need Photoshop. And it's been said a million times, even from the supposed Windows zealot, if you have basic needs on a PC, which I've conceded are the bulk of home users, then moving to Linux probably wouldn't present much of a challenge.

And while I don't agree that the PC is dying, it is dying off at the lower end because much of those activities are easily replaced by a phone. I think that the lower end of PCs isn't really where most pro-desktop Linux folks are that interested in because they see the obvious. PCs are transitioning to the higher end where mobile is no where near replacing them any time soon, especially for things like PC gaming. So I get why pro-desktop Linux folks like to cheer on the rise of desktop Linux gaming. And yeah, Linux gaming is better than ever, but so is Windows gaming.

 

[heatlesssun]

I never stated I've never heard of One Note, I stated that I don't know a single sole that uses it - And I deal with a lot of people. I still stand by that claim, as to state otherwise would be an outright lie. Doesn't matter anyway as if you really need it it's available in Office online.

I'm not arguing your personal experience, I'm just saying OneNote is much bigger deal than your personal experience I believe indicates. Web searches reveal a LOT of information about OneNote across the various platforms it supports.

I'm also fairly certain I never outright claimed that Linux was superior to Windows. Windows 10 is an outright mess compared to W7 and I believe Linux does have some security advantages, I believe to claim that all of Windows infection issues are related solely to it's popularity is slightly generalised - But I have nothing against Windows with the exception of the obvious updater issues, fragmented UI issues, touch issues on desktop machines, that odd thing with the microphone and privacy issues. As stated, I have three Windows machines here, two of those are running Windows 10, so I can't think it's that bad.

Fair enough. I personally have Windows 10 running on 6 machines across a wide spectrum of forum factors and for me it's as solid as Windows 7 ever was. And I know this isn't a universal experience. But if I were having some of problems that others are having here I don't see how I'd be able to use Windows 10.

But I by far prefer Linux and the statistics highlight that it's popularity is growing, that pleases me.

Cool. And if this were a new debate I'd probably see it more like you do. Pro-desktop Linux folks have been proclaiming its growth for nearly 2 decades now, thus the "This is the year of Linux on the desktop!" meme. So desktop Linux isn't going anywhere but I don't see it ever really being mainstream as it is. It's going to have to received a lot more 3rd party support. If that happens then sure, Linux could easily become mainstream.

AAA titles piss me off as they're overpriced, full of bullshit DLC and usually half finished on release. Nvidia tries to cover up the issues with a driver update, at times that breaks something else (Call Of Duty - Advanced Warfare anyone?). I have a right as a consumer to be pissed at that, as a result I don't care for such titles anymore.

I bought more games in the last year than I had in long time, including Call Of Duty - Advanced Warfare. Biggest issue by far was with SLI support, or lack there of. I just didn't have that many issues.

 

[ChadD]

You say a lot of things that are utterly out to lunch, but Microsoft replacing the Windows Kernel with the Linux Kernel is absolute lunacy.

The Linux Kernel development is a MESS.
Linus calls Linux 'bloated and huge'

The Linux Kernel. To Infinity and Beyond!

I suppose Microsoft should get in early before the Linux Kernel fills up the Universe with it's ever expanding size.

BTW File system updates are essentially trivial and could be done in place if necessary. It looks like Apple will soon be swapping the file system in iOS and most users won't even know. Not that NTFS seems that problematic.

You really love those 7 year old links don't you ? Linus is an old timer who learned what he knows back in the 80s... his idea of bloated would make a MS engineer blush. Seing as MS was shipping Vista I'm not sure they have a good comparison. Seriously though Linux has solved it in the years since. There are plenty of papers describing how to compile the kernel to smaller sizes if required for smaller devices. TI has published plenty of papers describing how to do so... and Linux has in the last 7 years set the kernel code up exactly for that use. (in fact Linus publicly calling them out 7 years ago helped spur some of that) You can compile todays kernel as small as 20meg leaving out all the hardware drivers and other things if your hardware doesn't need them..... having said that the kernel is still around 80megs compiled. That is still much smaller then the windows kernel, and they still do drivers outside the kernel.
Yes the Kernel has gotten bigger doh... how do you add support for all the things you guys claim Linux doesn't support without adding code ? It isn't an issue, of course things get larger.... Just as MS ships more and more software as well. (No distro compiles the kernel with every single line of kernel code... for instance x86_64 kernel doesn't compile with the ARM PowerPC or X86 32 code... nor do they compile all the drivers required for things like mobile wi fi hardware ect)

Denying that NTFS has issues is just silly. Granted they have been masked a bit with SSDs the last few years... that still doesn't make it an ideal FS. MS stuck with it because they own it and love charging companies that are forced to use it. They have developed a better system that does fix many of the NTFS short falls so far they only us it in their server OS. In the case of windows no it wouldn't be a very smooth upgrade process for peoples consumer hardware.

 

[ChadD]

I bought more games in the last year than I had in long time, including Call Of Duty - Advanced Warfare. Biggest issue by far was with SLI support, or lack there of. I just didn't have that many issues.

I think you are sort of agreeing with him even if you don't know it.

He has said... the industry annoys me with their lack of real support for the PC platform. They have forced the PC hardware companies to cover for their lack of support.

You are saying I have bought tons of that software... the issues I have had revolve around the software not really supporting my platform very well. (no sli support)

So which do you want... the software companies to actually support the PC and code SLI support and other things important to PC gamers. Or do you want the hardware companies to continue doctoring their driver to detect that console port an hack in some support. Which gets broken of course when said software company runs an update in a few months and changes a few header calls... or some other piece of software completely gets mistaken by the driver and causes some strange crash.

I understand his point... when I am gaming in Windows I see the (Your Graphics driver has crash and restarted) message at least a few times a month. I have never had the Nvidia Linux driver crash on me... granted Nvidia I don't believe is in their adding the same types of hacks, perhaps if Linux got more support that would change.

Anyway its good to see you guys have a bit of common ground... thought I would point it out.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think you are sort of agreeing with him even if you don't know it.

He has said... the industry annoys me with their lack of real support for the PC platform. They have forced the PC hardware companies to cover for their lack of support.

You are saying I have bought tons of that software... the issues I have had revolve around the software not really supporting my platform very well. (no sli support)

So which do you want... the software companies to actually support the PC and code SLI support and other things important to PC gamers. Or do you want the hardware companies to continue doctoring their driver to detect that console port an hack in some support. Which gets broken of course when said software company runs an update in a few months and changes a few header calls... or some other piece of software completely gets mistaken by the driver and causes some strange crash.

I understand his point... when I am gaming in Windows I see the (Your Graphics driver has crash and restarted) message at least a few times a month. I have never had the Nvidia Linux driver crash on me... granted Nvidia I don't believe is in their adding the same types of hacks, perhaps if Linux got more support that would change.

Anyway its good to see you guys have a bit of common ground... thought I would point it out.

I think what he was saying involved much more serious problems than lack of SLI support. Sure, I'd love to see much better for support for SLI but it is a pretty exotic thing. In any case, a single 1080 doesn't have too many problems driving most games at max except 4k and even then a good deal of new games can be maxed or come close and still maintain a solid 60 FPS. In any case, in all the years I've played games on Windows PC, 2016 for me quality wise was very good. And I guess that's one reason why I get called a Windows 10 zealot buy some. I'm just not having many problems with it. So can imagine that for those that are having problems it's hard to imagine Windows 10 running well on a variety of hardware.

 

[ChadD]

I think what he was saying involved much more serious problems than lack of SLI support. Sure, I'd love to see much better for support for SLI but it is a pretty exotic thing. In any case, a single 1080 doesn't have too many problems driving most games at max except 4k and even then a good deal of new games can be maxed or come close and still maintain a solid 60 FPS. In any case, in all the years I've played games on Windows PC, 2016 for me quality wise was very good. And I guess that's one reason why I get called a Windows 10 zealot buy some. I'm just not having many problems with it. So can imagine that for those that are having problems it's hard to imagine Windows 10 running well on a variety of hardware.

Well I can't say I have ever spoken to an actual Windows user in real life that doesn't know what a blue screen is. MS has went as far as adding things like GPU recovery to Windows for a reason. So yes your claims do seem a little over the top to most. If your being truthful though and your systems have always just worked then that's great of course.

 

[BulletDust]

I'm not arguing your personal experience, I'm just saying OneNote is much bigger deal than your personal experience I believe indicates. Web searches reveal a LOT of information about OneNote across the various platforms it supports.



Fair enough. I personally have Windows 10 running on 6 machines across a wide spectrum of forum factors and for me it's as solid as Windows 7 ever was. And I know this isn't a universal experience. But if I were having some of problems that others are having here I don't see how I'd be able to use Windows 10.



Cool. And if this were a new debate I'd probably see it more like you do. Pro-desktop Linux folks have been proclaiming its growth for nearly 2 decades now, thus the "This is the year of Linux on the desktop!" meme. So desktop Linux isn't going anywhere but I don't see it ever really being mainstream as it is. It's going to have to received a lot more 3rd party support. If that happens then sure, Linux could easily become mainstream.



I bought more games in the last year than I had in long time, including Call Of Duty - Advanced Warfare. Biggest issue by far was with SLI support, or lack there of. I just didn't have that many issues.

The year of the Linux desktop for me came three years ago when I worked out there was nothing tying me to Microsoft and I could do everything I wanted under Linux.

Can't be bothered with the rest of your comment.

 

[BulletDust]

In relation to my issues RE: COD-AW, see below. It would fill all 8GB of vram on a GTX980Ti in about two minutes:

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-page...-graphics-performance-benchmark-review,8.html

And there's much, much more. Issues with BF3 on release, issues with BF4 on release. All that money and the games are half finished.

 

[ChadD]

And there's much, much more. Issues with BF3 on release, issues with BF4 on release. All that money and the games are half finished.

There finished... they run fine on the machines their intended to run on. PS4 and Xbox. Its the windows ports with the issues. (ok I'm not sure a week later if it should still be fun pushing heatles buttons)

 

[Snowdog]

You really love those 7 year old links don't you ? Linus is an old timer who learned what he knows back in the 80s... his idea of bloated would make a MS engineer blush. .

Yeah, so now you know more than Linus.

But I am sure the Kernel is less bloated today.

This reminds me have you checked out gaming benchmarks on Linux for the few games Linux does have ports of?

Oops you just threw away half your GPU. BTW source of this is from a Linux site.

 

[BulletDust]

There finished... they run fine on the machines their intended to run on. PS4 and Xbox. Its the windows ports with the issues. (ok I'm not sure a week later if it should still be fun pushing heatles buttons)

Yeah, well it shouldn't as it's the harsh truth. I don't make up comments and I certainly don't exaggerate anything.

 

[BulletDust]

I think you are sort of agreeing with him even if you don't know it.

He has said... the industry annoys me with their lack of real support for the PC platform. They have forced the PC hardware companies to cover for their lack of support.

You are saying I have bought tons of that software... the issues I have had revolve around the software not really supporting my platform very well. (no sli support)

So which do you want... the software companies to actually support the PC and code SLI support and other things important to PC gamers. Or do you want the hardware companies to continue doctoring their driver to detect that console port an hack in some support. Which gets broken of course when said software company runs an update in a few months and changes a few header calls... or some other piece of software completely gets mistaken by the driver and causes some strange crash.

I understand his point... when I am gaming in Windows I see the (Your Graphics driver has crash and restarted) message at least a few times a month. I have never had the Nvidia Linux driver crash on me... granted Nvidia I don't believe is in their adding the same types of hacks, perhaps if Linux got more support that would change.

Anyway its good to see you guys have a bit of common ground... thought I would point it out.

That is an interesting point I never really realised. I used to see those 'Graphics driver has stopped responding and restarted' errors under Windows 7 all the time, I've never once seen anything remotely like it under Linux.

Another interesting point was just how much vram the Aero compositor took up, one of my tricks under Windows was to disable aero when launching certain games in order to save on vram when I was running SLI with NVS.

 

[heatlesssun]

Well I can't say I have ever spoken to an actual Windows user in real life that doesn't know what a blue screen is. MS has went as far as adding things like GPU recovery to Windows for a reason. So yes your claims do seem a little over the top to most. If your being truthful though and your systems have always just worked then that's great of course.

I never claimed everything was perfect, and certainly with new hardware sometimes especially there are issues. I got the Surface Book at launch and it took about 4 months for Microsoft to fix some big problems with power management and the screen detachment. So there were some blue screens there. Skylake and Windows 10 initially had some problems across many devices. So stuff happens. Since last March I think I can recall one BSOD on the Surface Book? My sig hasn't had one, not one that wasn't overclocking related or some other low level adjustment. I've spent too much money on this stuff to have it constantly bugging out, so yeah, I being perfectly truthful about it. No one is going to spend this kind of money on stuff to have constant problems. There's nothing over the top about that.

 

[BulletDust]

I never claimed everything was perfect, and certainly with new hardware sometimes especially there are issues. I got the Surface Book at launch and it took about 4 months for Microsoft to fix some big problems with power management and the screen detachment. So there were some blue screens there. Skylake and Windows 10 initially had some problems across many devices. So stuff happens. Since last March I think I can recall one BSOD on the Surface Book? My sig hasn't had one, not one that wasn't overclocking related or some other low level adjustment. I've spent too much money on this stuff to have it constantly bugging out, so yeah, I being perfectly truthful about it. No one is going to spend this kind of money on stuff to have constant problems. There's nothing over the top about that.

I have never had a kernel panic under Linux on any machine I've ever run it on. Not ever, don't even know what one looks like.

 

[heatlesssun]

That is an interesting point I never really realised. I used to see those 'Graphics driver has stopped responding and restarted' errors under Windows 7 all the time, I've never once seen anything remotely like it under Linux.

This used to be one of the problems I had early on with my Surface Book, the dual Intel/NVidia GPUs didn't get along well and the nVidia would crash often when detaching the screen.

 

[heatlesssun]

In relation to my issues RE: COD-AW, see below. It would fill all 8GB of vram on a GTX980Ti in about two minutes:

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-page...-graphics-performance-benchmark-review,8.html

And there's much, much more. Issues with BF3 on release, issues with BF4 on release. All that money and the games are half finished.

That seems to be by design. This review was actually favorable especially in the visuals area.

 

[heatlesssun]

I have never had a kernel panic under Linux on any machine I've ever run it on. Not ever, don't even know what one looks like.

Cool. If Linux is more stable than Windows then it is. You put something on enough systems though stuff happens, hardware has plenty to do with system stability. And there's a lot of bad hardware out there.

 

[ChadD]

Yeah, so now you know more than Linus.

Oops you just threw away half your GPU. BTW source of this is from a Linux site.

Linus said what he said 6 years ago... and his public shaming did help them shape the kernel in a more moduler way which has helped make it easier for companies using the kernel compile what is required for their needs. The average kernel in a desktop Linux distro is 80 megabytes. The windows kernel is a micro kernel... honestly its only like 2 megs. The problem is its a micro kernel which means there is a lot of other required files that make up windows... there is a reason a Windows install is 8-9 gb and a Linux one averages 2gb, and at 2gb the Linux distro will include a lot more actual software such as an office suite. For a macro kernel to compile to 80 megs is hardly bloated. 6 years ago when companies like Intel and other big names all of a sudden started supplying lots and lots of code to the kernel he was worried it was going to spiral into a monster.... his concern wasn't misplaced, and when he vented his frustration they didn't have a plan to deal with it. They have since oiled the machine pretty well and they have a really good flow, which is why we see a new kernel every month at this point. (the compiled kernels don't grow all that much with each version. There where plenty of stories the last year or two about X or Y distro dropping X86 support and other things... they are streamlining the kernels by removing older code replacing it with newer code for newer hardware)
http://www.zdnet.com/article/anonymous-msft-developer-admits-linux-is-faster-than-windows/


Yes yes we know Linux is slower for games. No one here ever claimed the games ran faster in Linux. We have said we have games we like on Linux and if they run at 40fps avg we are happy and don't care that they could be running at 50 fps in windows. This is due to the way the Linux X window system works... perhaps Wayland helps that perhaps not. Mostly it has to do with the software. If you look at benches from games that are optimized for linux such as Valves DOTA the benchmarks are always either = or show a small advantage for Linux. You can also find benchmarks where its clear the higher the memory and drive loads in some games the less a gap... you will even find some that show Linux beating windows in ultra settings. Vulcan may or may not become a real thing (Nvidia Vs AMD Vulcan)... yes we know today Linux gaming isn't where it would need to be to have a massive number of windows gamers move over, no one denies that.

Regardless yes point ceded already... windows is faster for games right now, I can't recall ever claiming that wasn't the case. If that is all you do dual boot or just run windows.

I could go pull up 20 different benchmarks that show NTFS is 20-30% slower then EXT4... and 30-40% slower the BtrFS. There is a reason the majority of servers in the world run Linux and an even higher % of the ones that deal with lots of data movement (web servers and super computers) use Linux. Part of that reason is the superior file system support.
I won't however go and say Ooops look you just threw out half your hard drive. Windows is good for what its good for (gaming) if that is all you care about no one is arguing you shouldn't use windows, not many people only care about gaming I don't believe.

I move lots of system images and files for my clients to external drives usb keys ect... or just moving the files from one drive to another on my own system. I try to keep images around in case I need them at some point. Linux is faster for that, and after building moving moving deleting over and over again I have never had to worry about fragmentation or degradation of performance in anyway.

Who knows at some point in the future MS may decide to ditch their old file system as Apple has decided to do... and Vulcan may become a thing for the linux people.

The thread is titled thinking about windows 10 alternatives. So if you don't want to do that by all means stick to windows 10.... it will run all your games no issues, well unless they're console ports.

For plenty of people that are not "hardcore" gamers Linux is more then just fine... its superior.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-sw...mac-when-you-can-use-linux-mint-17-3-instead/

 

[Gavv]

They'd probably do alright in the mobile sector if it wasn't for their pricing model, their devices are simply too expensive, it the same thing working against Apple with the new MacBook Pro and their rubbish bin looking Mac Pro desktop unit.

Personally I'd like to know how they expect to charge for Windows if Windows 10 is supposed to be the final version. If they plan on a subscription based model it could very well Backfire badly on them.

I know I would move solely to Linux if iwindows went to subscription based. Unless the sub is less than a buck a month.

As good as windows works the value has changed for me. Without any discounts it is to much. Most home are 2-4 computer homes depending on sub cost that adds up. I have 5 computers with only one win 10 box. Not because I don't want to upgrade but the cost is just to high and the previous Win7 OS does everything it should.

To me I don't care which is better as I can make do on either OS. It comes down to cost and convenience. Right now Linux wins on cost and windows on convenience. However when the cost becomes to great it becomes inconvenient.

I hope Linux continues to grow. More choice is always better for the consumer.

 

[Snowdog]

I could go pull up 20 different benchmarks that show NTFS is 20-30% slower then EXT4... and 30-40% slower the BtrFS. There is a reason the majority of servers in the world run Linux and an even higher % of the ones that deal with lots of data movement (web servers and super computers) use Linux. Part of that reason is the superior file system support.
I won't however go and say Ooops look you just threw out half your hard drive. Windows is good for what its good for (gaming) if that is all you care about no one is arguing you shouldn't use windows, not many people only care about gaming I don't believe.

Maybe NTFS is 20% slower, but desktop applications are NOT file system bound. Taking 2 more seconds to load a game, is not on the same scale an issues, as cutting your FPS in half for the whole game, for the few games Linux does support.

For plenty of people that are not "hardcore" gamers Linux is more then just fine... its superior.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-sw...mac-when-you-can-use-linux-mint-17-3-instead/

That's not plenty of People. That's their Linux columnist. And he doesn't say much more than what Linux boosters were saying 10 years ago.

He claims you can get by with: Web Browser,GIMP, and Libre Office.

Because that is all anyone needs. Right?

That is NOT superior. It's barely better than a ChromeBook. Maybe for most Linux users a Chromebook would be superior.

There are over a million applications for Windows, and they exist because someone needs them.

And it isn't some fringe of people with 100 000 installed applications each. They are spread around the majority of users. It's more likely than not that most Windows users have applications they use, that don't have Linux equivalents, or have inferior Linux equivalents. So it would be a step in the wrong direction for them.

 

[ChadD]

Snowdog as I have said... if you have decided games are all you care about. Stick to Windows man. You win... Linux is no option for you. lol

Don't however compare your use to mine and think you know better then me. I am constantly building 4-8 GB Linux images for my clients... moving them around backing them up... coming through hundreds of files ect ect.

Granted I'm dealing with their Linux stuff mostly so obviously WIndows isn't really an option. I can tell you though if I was doing it on a windows machine it would drive me nuts, having to listen to the drives chunking... having to defrag the stupid things all the time.

Linux has its uses beyond just Enhanced chrome book status. For the average user though no chrome book is pretty much all they need your not wrong. Claiming the average person is using their copy of windows much differently then a chorme book is just wrong.

 

[Snowdog]

Snowdog as I have said... if you have decided games are all you care about. Stick to Windows man. You win... Linux is no option for you. lol

Yes, you keep saying that, every time I point out that similar Linux deficiencies exist across all application categories.

You like to pretend this is only about games, then dismiss gaming's importance.

I am not ONLY interested in games. AS I mentioned before, multiple times.

TV Tuner Recording.
Editing commercials out of TV Tuner recording.
Garmin Handheld GPS usage.
Garmin GPS Running Watch usage.


Like I said, there are a Million+ Windows applications, and they exists because people are using them. The people using those applications won't want to give them to go to inferior/nonexistent ones on Linux.

 

[BulletDust]

That seems to be by design. This review was actually favorable especially in the visuals area.

It wasn't by design, you could drop graphics settings to low and in two minutes the vram was full and the game became a slideshow.

 

[BulletDust]

I Snowdog still posting? I blocked his childish crap at the beginning of the thread.

No respect whatsoever, not interested in his opinion at all.

 

[BulletDust]

Cool. If Linux is more stable than Windows then it is. You put something on enough systems though stuff happens, hardware has plenty to do with system stability. And there's a lot of bad hardware out there.

What about when it's the same system and only shows issues under Windows?

 

[heatlesssun]

What about when it's the same system and only shows issues under Windows?

System stability is a tricky subject. I have no problem conceding on paper that desktop Linux is more stable than Windows. It can be easy to muck of Windows with malware, bad drivers, bad software and sometimes stuff can be very bleeding edge and new and not stable as I pointed out with my early experiences of the Surface Book. So much of what I do isn't support under Linux. Without 1 to 1 comparisons of everything I do under Windows vs. Linux, theoretical stability doesn't mean much when the functionality isn't even there to test.

So one can make generalized statements about Linux stability being better than Windows in this case it's not generalization I'd argue against. But ultimately stability is an individual case scenario with far too many factors to make generalizations that mean a lot in many specific cases.

 

[ManofGod]

I know I would move solely to Linux if iwindows went to subscription based. Unless the sub is less than a buck a month.

As good as windows works the value has changed for me. Without any discounts it is to much. Most home are 2-4 computer homes depending on sub cost that adds up. I have 5 computers with only one win 10 box. Not because I don't want to upgrade but the cost is just to high and the previous Win7 OS does everything it should.

To me I don't care which is better as I can make do on either OS. It comes down to cost and convenience. Right now Linux wins on cost and windows on convenience. However when the cost becomes to great it becomes inconvenient.

I hope Linux continues to grow. More choice is always better for the consumer.

The OS itself will never be subscription based. Why would people even bother with Windows based anything then when they do not have to pay a subscription just to used the Android or iOS based phones and tablets? Or what about Mac's that will never require a subscription. You have nothing to worry about at all. In regards to Linux, most are not even aware that it exists so there would even be a choice in their mind and they would not care either.

 

[Frobozz]

The OS itself will never be subscription based. Why would people even bother with Windows based anything then when they do not have to pay a subscription just to used the Android or iOS based phones and tablets? Or what about Mac's that will never require a subscription. You have nothing to worry about at all. In regards to Linux, most are not even aware that it exists so there would even be a choice in their mind and they would not care either.

That's a load of assumptions. In this thread (among others), it's been stated that Windows does so much that it's worth paying for, and is a minimal cost in the big scheme of things. For all the things it enables you to do, surely you'd be willing to pay a nominal charge of say... $10/mo for the core of your system. Patches carefully tested by a top tier company. Access to every new version of an enterprise class operating system as it rolls out!
You can't find this in stores, folks! Enroll with your Live! Account today!



Don't underestimate the bean counters and lawyers.

 

[ManofGod]

That's a load of assumptions. In this thread (among others), it's been stated that Windows does so much that it's worth paying for, and is a minimal cost in the big scheme of things. For all the things it enables you to do, surely you'd be willing to pay a nominal charge of say... $10/mo for the core of your system. Patches carefully tested by a top tier company. Access to every new version of an enterprise class operating system as it rolls out!
You can't find this in stores, folks! Enroll with you Live! Account today!



Don't underestimate the bean counters and lawyers.

It is not an assumption at all, it is common freaking sense. Even the bean counters have common freaking sense. Oh well, good luck with that load of whatever you are using, I will be here all night.

 

[heatlesssun]

The OS itself will never be subscription based. Why would people even bother with Windows based anything then when they do not have to pay a subscription just to used the Android or iOS based phones and tablets? Or what about Mac's that will never require a subscription. You have nothing to worry about at all. In regards to Linux, most are not even aware that it exists so there would even be a choice in their mind and they would not care either.

The overwhelming majority of consumer Windows users never paid for Windows, not directly. And as you've pointed out, since every other major OS just comes with the device with free upgrades, I don't see how a consumer Windows subscription would ever work.

 

[jardows]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Not interested mate. I've stated my opinion and it still stands.

In my opinion Desktop Linux is awesome. Yes, I give a shit about Linux. I don't, however, give the slightest shit about your opinion.

Why do you always claim that I'm specifically talking about you? I'm talking in general, I don't really care about your needs.

The year of the Linux desktop for me came three years ago when I worked out there was nothing tying me to Microsoft and I could do everything I wanted under Linux.

Can't be bothered with the rest of your comment.

I Snowdog still posting? I blocked his childish crap at the beginning of the thread.

No respect whatsoever, not interested in his opinion at all.

Check it - this is the attitude I found so prevalent in Linux circles that turned me off from Linux altogether. For server side stuff, I look to FreeBSD. The community there is much more welcoming to differences of opinion. In fact, they don't even have a "Windows vs FreeBSD" debate in that community. It's all about "whatever works best for you is fine."

I have never had a kernel panic under Linux on any machine I've ever run it on. Not ever, don't even know what one looks like.

I have seen a kernel panic in Linux. It happens. Truth is, I haven't seen a "Blue Screen" on windows for so long, I have forgotten what they look like. Usually when I see it, I replace the faulty RAM and the computer works like a champ until it is obsolete.

The article and thread topic is Windows 10 alternatives, not Linux vs. Windows. If it is just about Windows vs. Linux, most people who could use something other than Windows are (phones and tablets), and those who do not use alternatives have good reasons to stay with Windows. Note I said most, not all.

Most people who need Windows can currently do fine with Windows 7 or Windows 8.1, and do not need Windows 10. That will change as time passes, just as people have moved on from Windows 98 and Windows XP.

 

[jtm55]

Check it - this is the attitude I found so prevalent in Linux circles that turned me off from Linux altogether. For server side stuff, I look to FreeBSD. The community there is much more welcoming to differences of opinion. In fact, they don't even have a "Windows vs FreeBSD" debate in that community. It's all about "whatever works best for you is fine."

Hi All
The same can be said for the Manjaro Community which is based on Arch Linux.They are much more welcoming to differences of opinion & like FreeBSD doesn't have a Windows vs Manjaro debate. I for one believe one should use the OS that best suits their needs. There isn't a best OS, there's only the best OS for you.

 

[Frobozz]

It is not an assumption at all, it is common freaking sense. Even the bean counters have common freaking sense. Oh well, good luck with that load of whatever you are using, I will be here all night.

It's the world of business.. Nothing is off limits as common freaking sense.
I could see a path where bean counters look at the success of the Creative Cloud and add it as an offering to their Office 365 service (for an additional cost of course.) That isn't to say they would cut out OEMs or retail avenues of purchase. That'd just be silly, but "$5/mo extra and you get Windows a windows license for your ultra VR system you built." is within the realm of possibility.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's the world of business.. Nothing is off limits as common freaking sense.
I could see a path where bean counters look at the success of the Creative Cloud and add it as an offering to their Office 365 service (for an additional cost of course.) That isn't to say they would cut out OEMs or retail avenues of purchase. That'd just be silly, but "$5/mo extra and you get Windows a windows license for your ultra VR system you built." is within the realm of possibility.

Sure anything is possible but not probable. The difference with CC and Office 365 the overwhelming majority of end consumer Windows users is that it's just another way to buy software that people had always been paying for, unless they pirated it. Windows for consumers has decades now come with the device and the cost of the version of Windows that came with the machine was NEVER a separate expense.

I do see what you're saying in one respect, you'd be forced to pay that $5 a month to keep thousands of dollars of hardware running like a VR headset. And you might even get some people willing to pay that if it's "Windows 7", i.e. a pure desktop OS with telemetry or Cortana. But it would still involve a lot of blowback and controversy and certainly lower end Windows users would be completely unhappy with a Windows sub model.

 

[Snowdog]

I don't see much stretch at all between Office 365 subscriptions for home users, and Windows Subscripts for the same.

It boggles my mind, that people even consider Software rental for basic home usage. So it would be no more shocking if Windows Subscriptions showed up and people paid for it, and told us it was a good thing.

I am happy to be insulated from most of the Win10 drama on Windows 7 until 2020. Hopefully my computer holds together.

 

[heatlesssun]

Snowdog as I have said... if you have decided games are all you care about. Stick to Windows man. You win... Linux is no option for you. lol

If we were only talking about games. The most interesting thing that happened to me in this thread is you mentioning Affinity as an alternative to Photoshop. I got check it out, there's a macOS and a Windows. No Linux version. More often than not when pro-desktop Linux folks mention "alternative" software there's a Windows version. So it's kind of ironic that when pro-desktop Linux folks are making the argument against Windows, they often end up highlighting the extraordinary Windows software ecosystem.

Granted I'm dealing with their Linux stuff mostly so obviously WIndows isn't really an option. I can tell you though if I was doing it on a windows machine it would drive me nuts, having to listen to the drives chunking... having to defrag the stupid things all the time.

Defragging a hard drive? LOL!

 

[BulletDust]

Check it - this is the attitude I found so prevalent in Linux circles that turned me off from Linux altogether. For server side stuff, I look to FreeBSD. The community there is much more welcoming to differences of opinion. In fact, they don't even have a "Windows vs FreeBSD" debate in that community. It's all about "whatever works best for you is fine."


I have seen a kernel panic in Linux. It happens. Truth is, I haven't seen a "Blue Screen" on windows for so long, I have forgotten what they look like. Usually when I see it, I replace the faulty RAM and the computer works like a champ until it is obsolete.

The article and thread topic is Windows 10 alternatives, not Linux vs. Windows. If it is just about Windows vs. Linux, most people who could use something other than Windows are (phones and tablets), and those who do not use alternatives have good reasons to stay with Windows. Note I said most, not all.

Most people who need Windows can currently do fine with Windows 7 or Windows 8.1, and do not need Windows 10. That will change as time passes, just as people have moved on from Windows 98 and Windows XP.

So lets get this straight.

I'm defending myself from what I consider to be quite simply that most biased Windows user I have ever seen, yet I'm not a helpful Linux user?

I state that I'm not interested in replying because Heatlesssun is a dog with a bone, no matter what i say, no matter how much I back my comments up with factual links, Heatlesssun will drag the thread further and further off course due to his blind bias for Windows - On the contrary I am doing all I can to keep this thread either:

A: On course, or
B: Let it die as it's pretty much lost the plot anyway.

If you believe I'm arrogant and unhelpful, you are wrong. However, as I state to Heatlesssun, you're entitled to your opinion.