Theoretical maximum specs for AMD cpu based platform under Windows 7

Discussion in 'AMD Processors' started by spacedrone808, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    CPU: 1950X [confirmed by Amx77]
    RAM: 192Gb [confirmed by microsoft]
    If you need even more RAM switch to Enterprise Server 2008 R2 [up to 2TB of RAM]

    SSD NVME: Samsung 970 PRO [confirmed by silent157 on youtube]
    SSD NVME RAID 0: TBD ?
    BEST MOBO: TBD ?

    Please post your suggestions and thoughts below. Together we can shape better FAQ.
     
  2. cyberguyz

    cyberguyz Gawd

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    If you are running Win7 you will need to roll in some nvme & updated amd drivers drivers to your windows install image.
     
  3. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    Yep, i know this fact, done it with Samsung 960 EVO NVME.
    But don't have experience with NVME RAID 0 feature. I suspect that some problems will arise definitely.
     
  4. bobzdar

    bobzdar [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is still a thing?
     
  5. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    Win 7? Yes, it is a thing!
    Win 10: 10-15% slower in Blender, *still* full of bugs. Privacy monster.
     
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  6. chithanh

    chithanh Gawd

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    Somehow building a maxed out system with a projected lifetime of slightly over a year (Windows 7 extended support ends in January 2020) seems not to be the best idea.

    Consider going Windows 8.1, that still boots on any current AMD CPU (may need to workaround Windows Update "unsupported hardware" issue) and is supported until January 2023.
     
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  7. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    Windows 7 Pro is supposed to support up to 128 virtual or real cores as far as I remember.
    Advantage of Windows 7 vs Windows 8.1 : nice UI, no huge privacy intrusion (it all started with Windows 8) , Huge driver support (even old Adaptec SCSI supported). Windows 8 is even worse than Windows 10 in many regards.
     
  8. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    Does someone know is there is a way to downgrade a Windows 10 Pro OEM, I installed on a home made PC, into Windows 7 Pro OEM1 ?. It seems there is, but the procedure is unclear.
     
  9. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

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    As much as I love(d) Windows 7, the disadvantages of attempting to use modern hardware with it simply became not worth it for me. Also, for those of you who hate the Windows 10 telemetry, Microsoft back-ported the telemetry that everyone loves to hate to the Windows 8.x and 7.x ecosystems, so you will still be marketing droids for Microsoft regardless of which OS you have installed. I am not a fan of the Windows 10 UI but once you have launched the process(es) you want the UI is essentially irrelevant anyway.
     
  10. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    256 cores to be precise.
     
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  11. bwang

    bwang Gawd

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    Most applications that can utilize many cores are also compatible with Linux (HPC people are not interested in buying a Windows license per node!) - at this point, Linux is almost certainly a more viable platform if you have concerns about Windows 10 privacy issues.
     
  12. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    I believe it's 256 cores aka virtual cores. Means 128 real cores as of x86 today standards. PowerPC has 4 virtual cores per real core.
    It has been mentioned by several testers that Windows 10 had inner limitations that actually limits it's efficiency at around 10 real cores. Microsoft has eventually patched the problem to some extent (seem boosted to 16 real cores).
    Zen 2 be better keeping Windows 7 compatibility.
     
  13. raazet

    raazet n00b

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    spacedrone808, were you able to complete your 1950x Windows 7 build, I have similar requirements and share similar concerns as you.
     
  14. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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  15. raazet

    raazet n00b

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    Thanks, have you shortlisted memory modules (8x 16GB) . With air cooling, it becomes tricky to choose right cabinet,air coolers, fans etc. Could you please include your current wish list, it would serve as valid starting point for others looking to run Win 7 on TR4
     
  16. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    I believe this includes the threads, so it may be 128 cores only to fit 256 threads but there is an issue of how Windows recognize a CPU and it seems it checks how the cores are addressed internally. So Windows has a problem with the dual design inside the 8 core Zen/Zen+ chips and this is even worse on multiple chip Threadripper. Windows Pro is limited in a way it supports only what he sees as 2 sockets (maybe 4 not sure). And Zen 2 comes with aggregated chiplets which may eventually need even Windows 10 to be updated for full support.
    I hope Zen 2 is fully supported on Windows 7 Pro. I will try switch my Ryzen/Ryzen+ computers with a Zen 2 as soon as it's on market. Windows 7 Pro OEM is supposed to handle this without asking for a new license.
     
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  17. CAD4466HK

    CAD4466HK [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is from Microsoft:

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/10737/windows-7-system-requirements

    It says processor cores, not threads. And only 2 sockets, I think you need Server 2003 for more.

    https://www.petri.com/hardware_requirements_for_windows_server_2003
     
  18. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    To be fair it will never say threads because ms use the word correctly to desribe a part of software ant not as an aspect of cpu hardware)
    it would specifs eiter physical or logical cores which is the more correct term.
     
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  19. CAD4466HK

    CAD4466HK [H]ard|Gawd

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    Valid point.
     
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  20. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    Please report here about your win 7 adventures in the upcoming future
     
  21. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    I have several PCs with Windows 7 Pro and Ryzen CPU. They work great. I stopped the upgrades (I put Windows update on manual download and install) at the date M$ put an update with a stop message for Ryzen/Skylake. Everything after that is on hold at the OS level, but I still have Windows Security Antivirus which works and updates itself (Windows Update doesn't block that update). After 2020 I will move to Avira is MS stops the MSE updates. They are still updating MSE on Vista.
    All the systems are Raid 1 with 2 sata SSD, 1 Crucial MX 500, and 1 Samsung 860 Evo. I put into on all of them Kingston 2400 RAM ECC. Everything works fine for now. Very stable.
    I don't mind getting 2, 3, 5% lower performance than the best if it's rock stable. Also every computer is connected to an UPS.
    I try to avoid Windows 10. Will gladly eventually install Linux if professional software I use, goes by this path.

    All the motherboards supporting Zen 2, have received a new Bios upgrade with AGESA 070/072 for now. These upgrades need newest drivers, one can't even find today at AMD (only at the motherboard manufacturers). Those drivers may not be compatible with Windows 7. That makes Zen 2, for now, incompatible with Windows 7.
    That would be a big shame on AMD. For now, do not update the BIOS to that latter one, especially if you're on Windows 7/8. Even on Windows 10 you may need to update the Chipset drivers to those recommended BEFORE you update the BIOS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  22. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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  23. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    I know, but best solution is to avoid the update of M$. People having updated have to play with the tool all along after updating.
    However, the major concern now is hat Zen 2 may not be compatible with Windows 7. I hope this is not true.
     
  24. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    AMD has little incentive to support a soon to be EOL OS, I doubt they'll make drivers available unless there's demand from large businesses for it. But even then, the drivers and software are unlikely to be made public, unless they get leaked.
     
  25. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    In fact the big problem is that even if an old mobo with b350 chipset is compatible with say Ryzen 3700, the latter will need a new BIOS for the motherboard and it seems new Bioses need new chipset drivers to run, that are only made for Windows 10. In fact it's been some time that AMD and the manufacturers do not publish Windows 7 AM4 compatible drivers.
    This is really bad news. In fact the Bios supposed to support Ryzen 3000 APU family based on 12nm Zen+ Which is supposedly no different from Zen, need new BIOSES that need new chipset drivers only compatibles with Windows 10. I am not sure there is anything to do against that. It means, if you're on Windows 7 on Ryzen, you can't upgrade to Zen 2. That would mean, first to update the BIOS, and the update needs first to update the chipset drivers BEFORE updating the BIOS. These drivers seem to be completely made for Windows 10 as for PCIe PCI express NVME and new CPU memory and states. There is no way around.
     
  26. Monkey God

    Monkey God Mangina Full of Sand

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    Microsoft pushing so hard to make people get off the older Windows OS's is just going to backfire. People don't like to be told what to do and will consider alternatives, if merely out of spite.
     
  27. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    There have been various small efforts to backport Windows 10 drivers to Windows 7 with varying levels of success. I had to use such a driver to get a 7th gen Intel CPU working on Windows 7 because Dell didn't tell us that the AIO machine we speced had secretly been upgraded from a 6th to a 7th gen CPU. I read about similar efforts on AMD's side, but didn't look into it too deeply since it didn't concern our machines.

    But BIOS updates are independent from chipset drivers. If you already had a modified chipset driver that worked on Win7, you wouldn't have to update it if you updated the BIOS in most cases. Unlike Intel, AMD has stated they will support AM4 and all chipsets at least through the 3rd generation of Ryzen, which should make unsupported driver modding efforts a bit easier. Intel's side is a total tossup though since they force unnecessary motherboard swaps nearly every generation now.

    Linus reviewed a weird Ali Express Chinese board not too long ago which claimed to support all Intel CPUs from the 6th gen up to the 9th gen with DDR3 and a single socket, and bizarrely it worked as stated. Other hardware hackers have proven that you can run newer CPUs in older boards with socket hacks, showing that Intel does its market segmentation crap just to force people to spend more money on their platform. There are obvious downsides though, the Chinese board used DDR3 and the chipset had crippled bandwidth due to restricted PCIe lanes, but it still worked and proved Intel is full of shit when they say they have to swap sockets because of running out of pins or some other excuse.
     
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  28. criccio

    criccio Fully Equipped

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    If we're talking the full Windows install base, these old curmudgeons that complain about change are an extreme minority. It's not going to backfire.

    I have to use Windows 7 at work and jfc it feels like I'm computing in 2009. Breath of fresh air to use a modern Win 10 machine at home.
     
  29. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    If by "breath of fresh air" you mean "toxic and full of cancer" then yeah, Windows 10 is peachy.

    From the OS itself being data mining hell, to machine bricking updates to driver nonsense, to WU being taken out of the hands of the user. It's the worst Windows yet.
     
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  30. criccio

    criccio Fully Equipped

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    I see all that complained about here daily. If I experienced issues with all that, i'm sure i would hate it too. Real shame.
     
  31. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    They added all the privacy invading goodness into Windows 7 a while back in regular "Windows Updates" though some shady KB's.
     
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  32. James21

    James21 Limp Gawd

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    I have Windows 7 x64 running on a Dual processor Xeon Scalable Gold CPU workstation booting from an Intel NVMe SSD, so I think there is a fair bit of life left in it if you don't mind pulling out the PS/2 keyboard & mouse from time to time.
     
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  33. Below Ambient

    Below Ambient [H]ard|Gawd

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    huge pain to get it to work, g/l to you, i tried and failed after many attempts over the course of a weekend... finally broke down, bought a $3 ebay windows 10 key and am quite happy after using an older version of spybot anti-beacon to shut down a bunch of stuff i dont need running all the time...
     
  34. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    Good luck getting Windows 7 to boot off an NVMe RAID array. You may be able to get it to use one as a non-boot device. but Its hard enough to make that work on Windows 10 with an AMD chipset based motherboard. I frequently have to fight to get the drivers to load properly during setup and to actually see such a volume as a boot device. Intel is 10x easier to deal with in this regard.
     
  35. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    I decided not to dive into such complex stuff, besides nvme raid is pretty questionable in terms of gained performance.

    Thanks to AXm77, i've managed to reach such configuration:

    Threadripper 1950x/Noctua u14s/Asrock x399m/64gb Corsair 2666Mhz/512gb Samsung 970 pro nvme/2 tb seagate firecuda with ssd cache/16gb vega vii/nec pa301w

    Suppose that such power will be pretty much sufficient for 3-4 years of graphics production under Windows 7
     
  36. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    It probably will be, but I don't understand the reasoning behind sticking with Windows 7 in the first place.
     
  37. Jandor

    Jandor [H]Lite

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    I'm answering to myself.
    Recent Bioses for Ryzen 3000 have been followed by new compatible AMD chipset drivers that are still compatible with Windows 7. I don't see any reason for those CPU not to be compatible with Windows 7. There is no new function unknown to Windows 7 that could render those CPU more incompatible than Ryzen 1000 series.
    I bet we'll be able to use a Ryzen 7 3700 on any of those boards with ECC, Sata Raid and Windows 7.
     
  38. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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    Motherboards can support new cpu's, but to support them we new to flash new bios, which could be incompatible with Windows 7.

    For eg on Asrock Taichi x399m you can't go above bios 1.10, if you do so Windows 7 installation will bootloop.

    Bioses after 1.10 add TR2 support. So 1950x is an edge for Windows 7.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  39. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    It's not broken, doesn't need fixing.

    Windows 10 is a steep downgrade in terms of user rights over their machines. From 1st party adware/malware to 3rd party apps automatically being pushed to your box to losing most control over updates and drivers on your box without ugly hacks and workarounds. Let's also not forget the automatic forced updates that have bricked thousands of machines from poorly QC'd updates and have caused mass data loss and lost productivity time.

    "But the spyware has been backported to Windows 7!" you may exclaim, well all of those updates have been found and can be blocked. Not so easy on Windows 10.

    Microsoft in its endless pursuit to cram as many features into its OS as possible has made the same mistake as countless developers in the past. They're so obsessed with features that they threw sensible design and quality control practices out the window, which has resulted in major disaster after major disaster with each big update they push out. How many times has the October 2018 update been pulled and re-released due to deleting user data?

    I don't understand the reasoning of people who willingly buy alpha quality software and be quality control guinea pigs for a multinational company to make profit off of them on both the front end of the product cost and back end of selling their user data. And no, I'm not talking about the Windows Insider program. Everyday people are subject to this crap, I see it on a daily basis.
     
  40. spacedrone808

    spacedrone808 [H]Lite

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