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The Elder Scrolls Online

Kryptorchid said:
My complaint is nothing like these.



I realize it is more work, but it stems from the idea that most MMO developers really have no clue what they are doing in terms of making a "world." All they really care about is churning out areas where they can slap together some kind of "content."

If you start designing your game by saying "I want all monsters within this would make logical sense in terms of the laws governed by the lore and the world," then it really isn't that much extra work.

Each zone that has a river, might have alligators in those rivers, it's just they will always be level 5 alligators. Rats will always be level 1. Harpies will always be level 10. And so on.

Now you can just focus on making the other parts of the zones have content that makes sense. So, let's say you are making a village of farmers who are trying to defend their land from you. Those will be level 15, but the battle-hardened Raiders who are trying to take the town, are level 30!

It really is simple, but like I said, you have to have the design goal to make it logical.
Click to expand...

Do you think it is laziness that stops that from happening or the player base? I'll give you a hint it is both! There have been numerous MMO's with that type of content and all have either been ridiculed or lambasted for putting in worthless trash mobs that do nothing but get in the way. The psychology of level design isn't a lost art, it just isn't appreciated by players anymore. There is a reason that MMOs end up becoming more streamlined as they age so most developers just aren't going to waste time on those assets when in the end they'll end up taking them out to satiate fans who just want content to level off of so they can get to end game.

MMOs aren't about the journey anymore, its about getting to end game and either doing PvP or raiding. That is the curse of MMOs and why the single player experience of Skyrim and its forbearers is so fun because in those games it is about the journey not the end game. I think my first completion of skyrim was at around hour 200. The amount of just wandering, questing, and exploring was the fun part having the game end wasn't. That is why the sandbox feel is gone from ESO because MMOs are about goal and task oriented rewards as sad as that is and they [the devs] want you stuck on the "carrot on a stick" mentality and this is why the game is going to fail as so many have pointed out.

Elderscrolls was never about the end game but about the journey and Zenimax and their team haven't done a great job of capturing that feeling.
 
That's why you need scalable content! When MR. Speed Rush gets to level XX by grinding rabbits in the starter zone, you can tell him to go back and do the quests as they have now scaled up to his level. Like The Secret World has.
 
Kryptorchid said:
The Angry Joe one has a lot of low level combat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upE802rZl7Q

For what it's worth, his thoughts and the other players thoughts in the video echo my own.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have audio on while watching this, so i don't know what he said.

Combat looks clunky to me, but i've been playing a ton of Dark Souls lately, which really makes most other games look like poop in comparison lol
cageymaru said:
That's why you need scalable content! When MR. Speed Rush gets to level XX by grinding rabbits in the starter zone, you can tell him to go back and do the quests as they have now scaled up to his level. Like The Secret World has.
Click to expand...

I like the fact that they don't have scaled content. That completely ruins the immersion for me. I like being able to beat harder content than my level and thereby gain access to loot above my level, making me really powerful for a stretch of time. When you become more powerful you should be able to one-shot the lesser enemies that once gave you trouble. It gives you a visceral way to know you've been progressing.
 
The biggest concern I have is with character builds. The system they have now would be set up perfectly for a pure-skill system. They tout the whole thing as being a "You can build any class, any way you want. Be a Sorcerer in heavy armor with sword and shield!" You're supposed to be able to level up simply by using your abilities, and then 'upgrade" them at certain teirs with points. This is where the problem comes in. So long as you have a fixed amount of points to "upgrade", especially if these are based on 1. level and 2. finding "widget pieces" in game where 3 widget pieces equals a skill point or something etc... this is an issue. Especially considering you have limited action sets so to speak where you can only equip X amount of skills at a time.

If the game was purely skill based, and you could eventually learn everything, but you only had so many skills you could equip at a time, that would be the limiting factor and it would work fine. Now, with the points involved, you can't decide that you want to say.. learn all the skills and abilities for Heavy Armor, and then also do the same for Medium Armor, because those points have to "go" somewhere else. Now, I suppose it could be done with a cumbersome respec system, but then we get back to "cookie cutters for every build". All this is to say nothing for certain builds being optimal and others being crappy - for instance, the skills/perks for heavy armor are said to be tanking related, medium armor is for DPS, and light armor is for magicka/caster stuff. Trying to be a wizard in heavy armor will mean much less magic-related bonuses. Okay, that's fine... IF AND ONLY IF, through an adapted playstyle a sorcerer in heavy armor was equally viable to a sorcerer in light armor. Perhaps the heavy armor kit would say... give you more survivability and you have to spec in a close combat weapon, but your magic is for enhanced sword attacks and damage shields, instead of using all your magicka just for direct damage as you may do with a high-magicka pool light armor build. If it turns out that you're just not as viable wearing heavy armor, to the point that the game is balanced against you doing so, then why even have the option? They can't balance the game difficulty against optimal builds and then tell people they have choice!

I hope there is a solution to this and I'll have to see up front when I actually get the chance to play a final version, but I'm more than a bit worried. I'd much rather see them forget about levels all along, and instead just move to a skill-based system.
 
Xaeos said:
The biggest concern I have is with character builds.

If the game was purely skill based, and you could eventually learn everything, but you only had so many skills you could equip at a time, that would be the limiting factor and it would work fine.

I hope there is a solution to this and I'll have to see up front when I actually get the chance to play a final version, but I'm more than a bit worried. I'd much rather see them forget about levels all along, and instead just move to a skill-based system.
Click to expand...

Quote edited for brevity. You cannot learn everything in the entire game but you can gain enough skill points to train a large number of the available skills, plenty to make several builds with, once you're further along. Remember the veteran stuff sends you into other faction territories so you have all of those quests that give skill points, sky shards, et al., throughout.

I have many complaints but the skill system isn't one of them :). They did actually think it through enough, though I thought from original press publicity that you'd be able to spec everything eventually, rather than just most things.

Still buying it though, just for the pvp.... craptacular user interface be damned.... :p.
 
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Xaeos said:
They can't balance the game difficulty against optimal builds and then tell people they have choice!
Click to expand...

There will be a lot of extra skillpoints floating around. You get them for doing main quests, pvp, exploring, and leveling up. By the time I hit 10 or 11 I had caught up to everything I wanted for my build and was dumping them in extra things. There are plenty of ways to 'waste' them too, like on crafting perks that let you see resources further away and whatnot.

As for what is optimal or not...hard to say for now. The game has multiple play styles, from endgame pve to mass pvp to stealthy small-group pvp. You will need two weapon lines at a minimum for weapon switch, and each one has its own action bar of abilities. May also need two armor types for pvp/pve, like medium for stealth bonuses in pvp and light for casting in pve. Then you have to worry about overcharging stats and diminishing returns, which starts to happen pretty quickly.
 
GoldenTiger said:
I have many complaints but the skill system isn't one of them :). They did actually think it through enough, though I thought from original press publicity that you'd be able to spec everything eventually, rather than just most things.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, though I would love them to change passives up a bit. I think it would be awesome if passives helped build synergy across multiple skill lines, kinda like how TSW's passives work, but this is picking nits.
 
Climber said:
Do you think it is laziness that stops that from happening or the player base? I'll give you a hint it is both! There have been numerous MMO's with that type of content and all have either been ridiculed or lambasted for putting in worthless trash mobs that do nothing but get in the way. The psychology of level design isn't a lost art, it just isn't appreciated by players anymore. There is a reason that MMOs end up becoming more streamlined as they age so most developers just aren't going to waste time on those assets when in the end they'll end up taking them out to satiate fans who just want content to level off of so they can get to end game.

MMOs aren't about the journey anymore, its about getting to end game and either doing PvP or raiding. That is the curse of MMOs and why the single player experience of Skyrim and its forbearers is so fun because in those games it is about the journey not the end game. I think my first completion of skyrim was at around hour 200. The amount of just wandering, questing, and exploring was the fun part having the game end wasn't. That is why the sandbox feel is gone from ESO because MMOs are about goal and task oriented rewards as sad as that is and they [the devs] want you stuck on the "carrot on a stick" mentality and this is why the game is going to fail as so many have pointed out.

Elderscrolls was never about the end game but about the journey and Zenimax and their team haven't done a great job of capturing that feeling.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. SWG was awesome because the end game component was fairly limited and most of it was about the journey. journey though planets, new discoveries, you could max out a profession in couple weeks, have up to three and then had to give up one to try something new. It was fun. Same thing with Oblivion, it was all about the journey, I remember how I felt when I was walking though a forest and I saw a semi broken marbel block, the classic low pitched but strong sound would kick in and butterflies would fill my stomach as I would read the words across my screen "You have discovered ....." I would know that I was taking a detour from my quest right there and there and this could be starting a new journey that may go across multiple towns and days, or a short side quest with 2-3 dungeons and some loot in the end. No matter what though there will be a short story behind it that will keep me interested.
I played Oblivion for 8 months and did not finish the main quest....maybe a bit because on purpose thinking I may not play the game after I finish the main quest line. Nothing I ever did on Oblivion felt like a grind although I played the game 300 hours or more.

Current day mmo's, kill all creatures in an area, move to the next area,, kill more creatures move to next area.... same thing over and over. They feel like a grind from day one...things slow down to a crawl right after level 5 or so and it is all about people optimizing their time trying to get to the highest level as soon as possible......It is crap...
 
Watching that video just reassures me of how flat the combat is. He maybe did 3 special attacks (which were the same each time), and the rest was just left clicking and standing still. Awful.
 
It's like they combined the worst elements of MMOs and Skyrim and made a game.

MMOs are usually sky high on hype trains during late betas. This is more like when someone has an ugly baby and no one wants to come out and say the kid looks like a potato.
 
ocellaris said:
It's like they combined the worst elements of MMOs and Skyrim and made a game.

MMOs are usually sky high on hype trains during late betas. This is more like when someone has an ugly baby and no one wants to come out and say the kid looks like a potato.
Click to expand...

Some guy in /zone said it best:

"It's like GW2 and Neverwinter had a kid with down syndrome."

The game plays like it was made in 2005. Complete dookie balls.
 
This write up (and the user comments at the bottom) got me a bit more excited -

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/...Michael-Bitton-ESO-Its-The-Little-Things.html

I think a lot of people so far aren't giving the game a fair shake, especially since so many people are focused on the early levels/starting island.

I had the same issue with The Secret World, at first I was let down, but then as I kept playing I enjoyed it a lot more and it quickly grew to be a great underdog mmo that I got my money's worth out of and more.

I noticed another neat detail from the beta videos.

IF people are looking at their inventory you actually see their character holding a bag and rummaging through it. If they are looking at their map you see their character actually looking at a map. Small details like that can really help a game.

Wish the NDA would lift soon.

Seems the only people that don't care about breaking it are people that played a few minutes and said screw this.
 
Stiler said:
This write up (and the user comments at the bottom) got me a bit more excited -

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/...Michael-Bitton-ESO-Its-The-Little-Things.html
Click to expand...

I can't seem to ever validate an opinion over at MMORPG. They seem to be more about creating hype than giving games a fair review. I do think they are great for discovering new mmo's though.

I'm still on the fence about ESO. I think if I end up purchasing the game it will be 3-6 months out. I want to get a complete picture of launch content and post launch development. I have some serious concerns about the game in its current state.
 
I really hate white knighting the game but damn, the combat at early levels is no better or worse than any other early level combat, IMO it borders on better because it isn't just tab, click, spam over an over again. Combat revolves around correctly executing timed attacks, correctly parrying or blocking an attack to trigger counters, synergizing your skill with another class to achieve different results, interrupts and dodges to keep your defense up and the list can go on; however, none of that is fully developed on the starting island. If you want a good idea of combat just think FFXI, AOC, GW2, and TSW and you have combat in ESO.

When you let a bunch of scrubs stress test your game you end up with this...

Cmustang87 said:
Watching that video just reassures me of how flat the combat is. He maybe did 3 special attacks (which were the same each time), and the rest was just left clicking and standing still. Awful.
Click to expand...

What do you expect a full complement of skills as if you are a level 80 death knight at lvl 10?

ocellaris said:
It's like they combined the worst elements of MMOs and Skyrim and made a game.

MMOs are usually sky high on hype trains during late betas. This is more like when someone has an ugly baby and no one wants to come out and say the kid looks like a potato.
Click to expand...

The combat is almost identical to Skyrim with a few minor exceptions.

missalaire said:
Some guy in /zone said it best:

"It's like GW2 and Neverwinter had a kid with down syndrome."

The game plays like it was made in 2005. Complete dookie balls.
Click to expand...

I disagree, the combat is up there with TSW and GW 2 /zone is full of a bunch of scrubs, idiots, and perhaps the lowest IQs of anyone to step foot in game. /zone in ESO made Barrens chat look like a Ted talk.
 
They need to double the experience in the beginning two zones so that when you are done with them, you are level 10 and not 5. The game gets so much more enjoyable and interesting at level 10, Zenimax are really shooting themselves in the foot with how long it currently takes to get there.
 
Why doesn't Zenimax release a video of a level 80 hard mode dungeon fight? Just one boss fight and leave the lore out to preserve the story. Show us what the game is going to be like. I haven't seen them hype their game up to generate interest once to this point. I think I can speak for a few others in this thread when I say that I don't have a clue why I would want the game. Maybe this is an example of a company needing to hire an advertising team and stop trying to let word of mouth spread the gospel.

Whatever their message is, it's not resonating with consumers.
 
cageymaru said:
Why doesn't Zenimax release a video of a level 80 hard mode dungeon fight? Just one boss fight and leave the lore out to preserve the story. Show us what the game is going to be like. I haven't seen them hype their game up to generate interest once to this point. I think I can speak for a few others in this thread when I say that I don't have a clue why I would want the game. Maybe this is an example of a company needing to hire an advertising team and stop trying to let word of mouth spread the gospel.

Whatever their message is, it's not resonating with consumers.
Click to expand...

Nope and one of the few reasons why the game is going to tank if the initial press release isn't good after the first month or two.
 
Are they even attempting to put out a message? I watched one gameplay video prior to the beta last weekend. I think that was all that was available. It looked decent enough but there's a lot of competition out there and most of it doesn't have an upfront cost and a monthly fee. I tried the beta because I didn't have anything going on, on Saturday.

I foresee this game being a pleasant surprise for a lot of people at release. I don't know what they'll do with it after that but I think they're going to have a good base to work from. There's at least a chance...
 
Has anyone else had an issue uninstalling the beta? I uninstalled it in windows, but none of the files were actually removed from my PC, so it's still taking up 24gb of space. I tried too just send the whole folder to the recycle bin to remove it for good, but it tells me I need admin privileges to alter the folder...which is odd since my account is an admin account.

edit: nevermind...apparently just needed a restart. Silly me....
 
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Stiler said:
This write up (and the user comments at the bottom) got me a bit more excited -

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/...Michael-Bitton-ESO-Its-The-Little-Things.html

I think a lot of people so far aren't giving the game a fair shake, especially since so many people are focused on the early levels/starting island.

I had the same issue with The Secret World, at first I was let down, but then as I kept playing I enjoyed it a lot more and it quickly grew to be a great underdog mmo that I got my money's worth out of and more.

I noticed another neat detail from the beta videos.

IF people are looking at their inventory you actually see their character holding a bag and rummaging through it. If they are looking at their map you see their character actually looking at a map. Small details like that can really help a game.

Wish the NDA would lift soon.

Seems the only people that don't care about breaking it are people that played a few minutes and said screw this.
Click to expand...

There's a shift happening with how they're going to work up to launch at this point. They finally have gotten the message and realize they need to pull it together and listen to some feedback. The starting zones are going to have a revamp in time for the next beta weekend, is one example. Not well known info even in the closed beta here but there it is ;). They have additionally stated they will be pushing patches out quickly to get things tested and iterated on extensively instead of sticking to the giant build cycle. They have begun implementing some changes and fixes that were long overdue.

In short they finally seem to be listening. And for those wanting more info from beta, don't worry, you will have it within the coming days :D. All of it. Out of respect I will hold specifics as to when.

Also I will say after seeing the newest changes and posts they have made I'm much more optimistic about the game again. It has many flaws but if they can pull it together well for launch enough along with the new user experience they should be able to hold on long enough 'til they can really get things ramping after launch.

And ya know what, I realized something: been playing it with full access for several months now and I am not tired of the game, even with the big problems, my beef with the user interface and such. There is actually an endgame beyond what has been revealed by press too, and a real one even. I hate the ui, I hate the bugs, and I hate some of the overlooked ability designs, but they are addressing the last 2 there well recently. UI? Maybe right after launch... fingers crossed.

Tol said:
Are they even attempting to put out a message?

I foresee this game being a pleasant surprise for a lot of people at release. I don't know what they'll do with it after that but I think they're going to have a good base to work from. There's at least a chance...
Click to expand...

It will be if they keep doing what they have begun now. Also they are well aware of needing to put more real footage out there, real gameplay impressions, etc. from guilds and long term testers. See above. Very, very soon.

The "One Big Thing" people will probably begin to realize is how open the build system really is. It's much more open than The Secret World for example and that was a pretty open one except for the nightmare dungeons requiring certain abilities. In ESO except a taunt (and even that believe it or not isn't a necessity if you build as a dps-tank caster) there really is no one specific ability that is needed for any given Veteran level dungeon. Yes you will need to have the basics covered such as someone to take damage, someone to crowd control and such, someone to help keep the group alive, but you don't absolutely, positively *need* any given thing, there is a lot of flexibility in how you get there.

Yea I am jumping a little early here but I want to post again since my previous one was so negative-sounding ;). As soon as allowable I will be back though!
 
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Amaroth said:
GT you flip flop on this game more than political candidates.
Click to expand...

Actually the majority of my remarks have been positive, with only some negative stuff mixed in. Heaven for fend anyone not be a raving fanboy or hater! . In the real world things aren't binary as to whether you only like or hate something. We of course don't want that to get in the way of a cute troll zing though do we?
 
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I'm starting to see positive comments on various forums about this game...first time ever....seems as though you need to approach this game like a fine wine...enjoy the journey and slow down...power levelers need not apply...at least thats the jist of the conversations these days

thoughts Tiger?
 
Tiger, what end game content exists? Show us pics, videos. Hell, show me a real dungeon, like a 5-6? man one. Show us something that shows the meat of the game.
 
Bangorang said:
I'm starting to see positive comments on various forums about this game...first time ever....seems as though you need to approach this game like a fine wine...enjoy the journey and slow down...power levelers need not apply...at least thats the jist of the conversations these days

thoughts Tiger?
Click to expand...

Even if you do level quickly (which isn't even a bad thing in this game, it's how you approach it to an extent though... I've gone from 1-50 (Vet Rank 1) inside of 65 hours before with no bugs or anything used) the game continues opening up during the Veteran ranks anyway. However these people are indeed right that there is a LOT of content you find that is off the main path. This continues not just in the starter zones but throughout the entirety of the game world, including whole quest chains, small events, and cool little areas with a miniboss in them that has a higher drop chance of something decent, for example. You also find some cool lore that you wouldn't catch otherwise roaming around extra. The game opens up both on the skill system, quests, dungeons (instanced and public), zones, etc. as well as Cyrodiil access, the further you go.

I actually have a longer post written up about this topic but I can't post it until that time I was talking about "very soon" :). The instant I can though, it's ready to copy-paste on here :p.
 
lilbabycat said:
Ouch
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. That was just...brutal to watch.

I'm glad they keep validating my reasons of staying away from this though! If I just took everything the devs are saying at face value, I would be more optimistic. But this....whew, bullet dodged so far
 
lilbabycat said:
Tiger, what end game content exists? Show us pics, videos. Hell, show me a real dungeon, like a 5-6? man one. Show us something that shows the meat of the game.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to show you a video or pictures that are easily identified, and completely against what I can even stretch to think of that they want shared yet. But as I said, VERY soon you will see some people showing that because it's going to be allowed, but asked to not be shown yet (you know people will anyway).

What I WILL show you is this list I wrote just now:

-There's Cyrodiil with the whole alliance war and many set items you can get off the vendors and in random bags with alliance points + upgrade through crafting.

-There's 4-man instanced dungeons (6 of them for Veteran ranks in two tiers, 10 more normal ones exist in-game that will be quickly added as more tiers).

-There's Veteran alliance zones which take you from Vet 1 to Vet 10 (and shortly post-launch, higher) which is another 2x the quests of your 1-50 in in its entirety (you've only done around 25% of the solo PVE content once you hit level 50/Vet Rank 1).

-There are Adventure Zones which I know some info about but the general closed tester populace doesn't yet, so I won't share anything further until that time, but in short they are NOT the same thing as raids, rather there are raid entrances inside the adventure zones to what you would see as traditional mmo raids. The adventure zones are not raids and are different areas entirely.

-Economically there is craftable gear that is actually worth a damn, and most of the good stuff from both pve and pvp is bind on equip so there will be one hell of an economy around those items, item enchantments (which between them and crafting often results in 2-3 customized things when changing a dropped item, and more if you craft a set item from scratch), and consumable foods that give you a lot of stats (and persist through death).
 
Stiler said:
I think a lot of people so far aren't giving the game a fair shake, especially since so many people are focused on the early levels/starting island.
Click to expand...

The thing is, those are the areas that should grab your attention and make you want to keep playing, not something you should have to force yourself to struggle through just to get to the "good stuff".

Its a sad thing, because now the only MMO I can hope for is Wildstar, and my playtimes there have not really sold me on that game either.

Guess I'll be playing Stick of Truth for a while and dipping into FFXIV now and then.
 
Limahl said:
The thing is, those are the areas that should grab your attention and make you want to keep playing, not something you should have to force yourself to struggle through just to get to the "good stuff".

Its a sad thing, because now the only MMO I can hope for is Wildstar, and my playtimes there have not really sold me on that game either.

Guess I'll be playing Stick of Truth for a while and dipping into FFXIV now and then.
Click to expand...

This is being addressed in time for the next beta weekend. They are doing a lot of work on the starter areas that are, as you say, "should grab your attention" but currently are something you "have to force yourself to struggle through" (which I agree they are par for the course for starting zones in an mmo but do not show off what the game really is). Zenimax got that concept after the beta weekend feedbacks. :)
 
Limahl said:
Its a sad thing, because now the only MMO I can hope for is Wildstar, and my playtimes there have not really sold me on that game either.
Click to expand...

having played wildstar, if you LIKED gw2, you will like wildstar
If you like action combat and constantly moving, you will LIKE wildstar
If the telegraph system doesn't bother you after 10 minutes, you will like it
If the color scheme of the world which is like being trapped inside a kaleidscope doesn't bother you, you will like it
If you like clusterfuck pvp with no tactics whatsover, you will like wildstar
If you like housing and decorate a house with all kinds of weird stuff, you will like wildstar
If you are a solo gamer, you will like wildstar

if you asnwered no to any of the above, you will NOT LIKE wildstar
 
Bangorang said:
having played wildstar, if you LIKED gw2, you will like wildstar
If you like action combat and constantly moving, you will LIKE wildstar
If the telegraph system doesn't bother you after 10 minutes, you will like it
If the color scheme of the world which is like being trapped inside a kaleidscope doesn't bother you, you will like it
If you like clusterfuck pvp with no tactics whatsover, you will like wildstar
If you like housing and decorate a house with all kinds of weird stuff, you will like wildstar
If you are a solo gamer, you will like wildstar

if you asnwered no to any of the above, you will NOT LIKE wildstar
Click to expand...



That's pretty much the impression I got as a tester too (actual closed beta i.e. early black ops both pre-and-post fall shutdown).
 
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