Switch From Windows to Linux

Mazzspeed

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The difference is if you go and install arch or manjaro. You won't NEED the AUR for anything at all.
No, you use PKGBUILD. The problem is: There's really no problem with adding a PPA as PKGBUILD is still not inherently secure unless you manually inspect all code. I fail to see an issue with adding multiple PPA's as opposed to one huge repositiry that isn't maintained when most will only use ~10% of all software contained within the repo.
 

Mazzspeed

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I don't think they care if you use another DE.
Any DE based on Gnome is showing limitations as a result of Gnome devs locking down the desktop. It was evident in Mate from 18.04 upwards which was the reason I decided GTK could stick it altogether.
 
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ChadD

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No, you use PKGBUILD. The problem is: There's really no problem with adding a PPA as PKGBUILD is still not inherently secure unless you manually inspect all code. I fail to see an issue with adding multiple PPA's as opposed to one huge repositiry that isn't maintained when most will only use ~10% of all software contained within the repo.
No I'm saying you don't have to install shit from the AUR. ;)

Installing base Manjaro as an example what do you NEED to install from the aur ?

Drivers ... No
Kernels ... No
Newer OpenGl/Vulkan stuffs ... No
Latest version of Blender or other major packages ... No

Cause they are in the main repositories.

Ubuntus drivers in their main repos are ancient. So anyone looking to game or do anything with there GPU is going to need to use a PPA. Want a newer kernel ... probably going to end up installing some tool via a PPA to do it. Need / Want the latest version of a popular package... probably going to need a PPA. And again I get your an advanced user... sure you can hunt through PPAs for the best options. Talking about new users though... telling them Linux takes care of all their software then pointing them to some new PPA on Github everytime they ask how they install the latest X or Y is just bad new user experience imo anyway.

So if your telling a new power user at least to go Ubuntu or Mint... they are probably going to be hunting multiple reliable PPA sources. Where as with an arch based distro all of those things are in the main repos. Its not a PPA vs AUR argument... its that distros using PPAs need them for far to much, where as the AUR really is just a nice bouns if you have some bit of software not covered by the official Arch packages.

The AUR is for obscure software. Yes it has lots of obscure software... its not filled with main stream stuff. The only packages I have installed form the AUR right now.... are widevine so I can use premium video services on Chromium, and UMS which is nice for streaming stuff to things like playstations. Those are the only 2 packages I use that are not in the main repos. Oh wait I stand corrected ... I also used the AUR to use someones PopOS theme installer. :)
 
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ChadD

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Any DE based on Gnome is showing limitations as a result of Gnome devs locking down the desktop. It was evident in Mate from 18.04 upwards which was the reason I decided GTK could stick it altogether.
I really am not sure what you mean locking down the desktop ?

No distro that I know of is Gnome only... offering gnome as a default option doesn't make it the only option. As I pointed out the gnome desktop manager allows you to launch any DE, even KDE. That is code maintained by the Gnome project. Where as last I checked at least SDDM the KDE projects launcher has a ton of issues launching DEs that are not KDE or LXqd
 

Mazzspeed

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I really am not sure what you mean locking down the desktop ?

No distro that I know of is Gnome only... offering gnome as a default option doesn't make it the only option. As I pointed out the gnome desktop manager allows you to launch any DE, even KDE. That is code maintained by the Gnome project. Where as last I checked at least SDDM the KDE projects launcher has a ton of issues launching DEs that are not KDE or LXqd
They've gimped the theming engine ChadD, any DE that relies on GTK3 no longer provides the user with the ability to customize colors to their liking as they could in the past. Running KDE I can change colors related to my theme and even GTK software applications respect my customization's.

No one in the Linux community should stand for such behavior.

No I'm saying you don't have to install shit from the AUR. ;)

Installing base Manjaro as an example what do you NEED to install from the aur ?

Drivers ... No
Kernels ... No
Newer OpenGl/Vulkan stuffs ... No
Latest version of Blender or other major packages ... No

Cause they are in the main repositories.

Ubuntus drivers in their main repos are ancient. So anyone looking to game or do anything with there GPU is going to need to use a PPA. Want a newer kernel ... probably going to end up installing some tool via a PPA to do it. Need / Want the latest version of a popular package... probably going to need a PPA. And again I get your an advanced user... sure you can hunt through PPAs for the best options. Talking about new users though... telling them Linux takes care of all their software then pointing them to some new PPA on Github everytime they ask how they install the latest X or Y is just bad new user experience imo anyway.

So if your telling a new power user at least to go Ubuntu or Mint... they are probably going to be hunting multiple reliable PPA sources. Where as with an arch based distro all of those things are in the main repos. Its not a PPA vs AUR argument... its that distros using PPAs need them for far to much, where as the AUR really is just a nice bouns if you have some bit of software not covered by the official Arch packages.

The AUR is for obscure software. Yes it has lots of obscure software... its not filled with main stream stuff. The only packages I have installed form the AUR right now.... are widevine so I can use premium video services on Chromium, and UMS which is nice for streaming stuff to things like playstations. Those are the only 2 packages I use that are not in the main repos. Oh wait I stand corrected ... I also used the AUR to use someones PopOS theme installer. :)
Once again, I don't see the issue in adding repositories as I need them. Generally speaking and as stated by yourself, this is an issue Windows users struggle to comprehend, I'm surprised you have such a problem with it ChadD.

If I want software outside of the official repo, I add the PPA and install the software - Big deal. Furthermore, drivers and kernels are provided by the official repo regarding non LTS releases and the kernel is updated to a newer version every second point release regarding LTS distro's, something I don't have a problem with and has never limited me in any way whatsoever.

However, choice is the beauty of Linux, there's something for everyone. Which is why I'm so opposed to Gnome devs and their insatiable desire to lock everything down.
 

Bowman15

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Linux Mint is a good OS for those who are transitioning from Windows, because Linux Mint copies a lot of what Windows does.


I feel the same about Windows honestly. How many different versions of Windows exist that people actually use? There's still people using Windows 7, 8, and now 10. Of those versions you have home, pro, ultimate, and etc. Now with Windows 10 you have different releases which can also cause issues. My sound card certainly doesn't like Windows 10 1903.

If you stick with the most popular distros you generally have less problems to deal with. I don't recommend Debian to people new to Linux despite how popular it is. Mint, Ubuntu, and PopOS is what most people should use when new to Linux. I can't say they'll be able to play the newest Windows games on Linux without issue, with all the tools that Linux now has like Proton and Lutris, but it can be done.
I'm not sure how you think that is even remotely the same?
 

DukenukemX

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Good point... Windows is fragmented as well. Windows fragmentation in many ways I find worse as many people are using old versions of the OS... with many even choosing versions with minimal security support. There may be 20+ very good new user Linux distros... but at least every single one of them is receiving daily security updates, and timely feature updates. People give Linux a hard time about fragmentation... but the software bits that make up the distros all pull from the exact same source. If your on Fedora or Ubuntu or Arch, Debian Suse or any other distro if your running Gnome... your on Gnome 3.34 right now and things are basically uniform. The Linux FHS means regardless of distro everything is where it is supposed to be. For most desktop distros these days are all the same... there package manager and software release schedules are the only major differences for the most part anymore. Ubuntu-Gnome vs Fedora-Gnome vs Manjaro-Gnome. The only differences are the package mangers used... and when and how often new versions of packages are pushed.
My Creative Recon3D sound card for example is totally broken in Windows because the drivers stopped being updated since 2015 and a new Windows 10 release broke many sound cards. I also have an Asus Xonar DGX and while it does work fine using the latest UniXonar drivers, there is a caveat about using new drivers with the latest release of Windows 10 and how it can hang the system if you suspend it. Surprisingly these sound cards work right out of the box on Linux Mint, with no issues. There is no DDL or DTS but that's more of a licensing issue than a technical one.

That suggests that new releases of Windows 10 can and will break stuff without warning.
 

Derangel

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My Creative Recon3D sound card for example is totally broken in Windows because the drivers stopped being updated since 2015 and a new Windows 10 release broke many sound cards. I also have an Asus Xonar DGX and while it does work fine using the latest UniXonar drivers, there is a caveat about using new drivers with the latest release of Windows 10 and how it can hang the system if you suspend it. Surprisingly these sound cards work right out of the box on Linux Mint, with no issues. There is no DDL or DTS but that's more of a licensing issue than a technical one.

That suggests that new releases of Windows 10 can and will break stuff without warning.
Isn't that more on companies for not bothering to update drivers? Creative is well known for quickly abandoning products and having fairly shit drivers and ASUS has never been good on the software and driver side of things.
 

Mazzspeed

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Isn't that more on companies for not bothering to update drivers? Creative is well known for quickly abandoning products and having fairly shit drivers and ASUS has never been good on the software and driver side of things.
Certainly is, which is no different to driver issues under Linux. Fact is: There isn't a desktop OS available that doesn't suffer from driver issues in one form or another, MacOS devices no longer even support Nvidia hardware.
 

RanceJustice

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I can applaud the progress of Linux in terms of accessibility while equally applauding and encouraging interested users to adopt Linux. From both practical and ethical standpoints, Linux offers a variety of benefits with regards to free/libre open source software (FLOSS) especially regarding privacy/security/data sovereignty ; a major factor in an age where data (and metadata ) is collected, analyzed, and used en masse to the profit of entrenched vested interests. While I'd love if almost all computing hardware/software was released under hardcore copyleft licenses that even Richard Stallman and the FSF would find acceptable, pragmatically it is still a net positive to run software that may be proprietary or otherwise licensed from Linux or otherwise open platforms.

Great progress has been made over the last few years and Linux is of interest, desired, and often thriving among home users at an increasing rate. I say "home users" here because most accept Linux's (or at least UNIX-like / POSIX compliant. ) supremacy in the datacenter, and more home users than ever have Linux uses beyond the desktop, from a Pi-Hole , LibreELEC, or PiCroft running on SBCs, to a NAS or multiuse home server (Rockstor, NextCloud, "Fediverse" instances, and many other self-hosted applications) and beyond. While the arrival of these new home use projects is great to see, desktop Linux is still the primary focus regarding assessing the use of the platform at home. WHile the idea of the "Year of the Linux Desktop" has been meme'd out for years, desktop Linux interest, adoption, and use has been increasing significantly.

The userbase for whom Linux is a viable, often preferable competitor for Windows and MacOSX is growing. Picturing the intensity and required knowledge of computing tasks from "very easy/casual" to "highly demanding", Linux viability is growing "inward" from those ends. Starting out exclusively for the highly technical geeks, by the last decade Linux became a capable alternative for very light/casual tasks like browsing, word processing, and the like ; the "my grandparent/parent/small child etc.. uses Linux" demographic. The problem has been the large middle section between the two extremes, where the problems of "Linux doesn't have X specific program / I can't get X to work" are most prevalent. Lots of the progress in the past several years is owed directly to Valve Software, for not only embracing Linux with their Steam client and SteamOS, but contribution to everything from X Windows System to GPU drivers and of course the open source coup de grace, Proton. While still contributing back upstream, Proton uses an enhanced version of WINE and related programs like DXVK to make playing Windows games on Linux easier and more effective than ever, including building a seamless version into Steam itself . Valve's projects have influenced others from hardware manufacturers to game/software developers to think more seriously about Linux, with myriad effects. This is not to say things are entirely perfect, and Proton for all its benefits doesn't work immediately for every game, but the advances in the gaming sphere have definitely knocked down many of the last walls that kept people on Windows. There is a large contingent of users who like the idea of Linux and would be open to switching, provided that enough of the games or software they desire work, and that's where we're headed. In turn, the synergistic effect of the additional interest/support means even more developers/manufacturers see value in supporting Linux, which then brings a larger user base, which is catered to by development...and on the benevolent process goes.

With the state of the digital world, there is more rationale , philosophical and practical alike, to use libre / open source software including Linux whenever possible ; a trend I do not see changing anytime soon. We should be happy however about the progress and increasing rates of Linux adoption , fulfilling a wider array of user needs in the process. Existing users should continue to contribute where and how they're able, including thanking and informing a developer that support of Linux was a big part of your purchase/donation motivation ; extremely important especially in gaming, where automated metrics drastically under report interest/use of the platform. Those who are intrigued by Linux, tried it out some time ago and for one reason or another didn't find it suited your needs, or otherwise have the interest - give it a try! While there are myriad distros, online resources showcase popular desktop focused, newcomer friendly distros. Just remember that every OS is a little different and you;ll need to learn new things, especially when it comes to troubleshooting ; repetition has made many users forget that the parameters and troubleshooting technique for using Windows and MacOSX had to be learned and worked out at one point! It would be dishonest of me to say that all the issues are gone when it comes to any particular piece of software / hardware not supporting Linux (or issues attempting to get it to run through WINE and the like). However, there is more official support than ever before and the tools for users to get around the lack thereof, from Wine / Proton all the way to using VirtualBox w/ GPU and other hardware passthrough, are easier to implement and more viable.

Linux has come a long way and hopefully it will continue to have a bright future, including on the desktop.
 
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Spun Ducky

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My point of view is that for my personal stuff i mainly use windows, however i do have multiple linux nucs and laptops. I do dev work so it is all about using the right tool for the job. In my experience for personal use windows is the better OS. The reason being that most consumer level goods are built first for it. So if i need to use a printer, scanner, or some odd program its just installed and done. Then gaming is a large issue, linux can game fairly well, but there are still games that won't run at all and if they do run on par with windows they are usually at lower performance on the same machine.

I look at it from a tool perspective and windows is the better tool for my personal use, while linux shines more often for dev work. The same reason i keep an old macbook is for their specific dev environment even though i rarely touch it outside of IOS testing. Having started linux back in the 90's on slackware i can say it is leaps and bounds better but it isn't quite ready for prime time.
 

Mazzspeed

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My point of view is that for my personal stuff i mainly use windows, however i do have multiple linux nucs and laptops. I do dev work so it is all about using the right tool for the job. In my experience for personal use windows is the better OS. The reason being that most consumer level goods are built first for it. So if i need to use a printer, scanner, or some odd program its just installed and done. Then gaming is a large issue, linux can game fairly well, but there are still games that won't run at all and if they do run on par with windows they are usually at lower performance on the same machine.

I look at it from a tool perspective and windows is the better tool for my personal use, while linux shines more often for dev work. The same reason i keep an old macbook is for their specific dev environment even though i rarely touch it outside of IOS testing. Having started linux back in the 90's on slackware i can say it is leaps and bounds better but it isn't quite ready for prime time.
There seems to be confusion regarding the term 'a better OS'.

When it comes to file system performance, scheduler performance including multicore threading and NUMA implementation as well as overall kernel efficiency - These are items relating specifically to the operating system and Linux is the better OS in relation to these factors. The same goes for updating efficiency and end user control over the updating process as well as updating reliability and operating system privacy and security. Considering these factors, Linux is the better OS.

When people relate to software availability, this has more to do with outright marketing and little to do with an unsubstantiated claim that an OS is better because there's more 'stuff' available for it. Furthermore, the idea that Linux is a software wasteland is in certain cases an exaggerated claim made up by misinformed Windows users unable to retrain their muscle memory and quite possibly stuck in the past. As stated earlier, there are many situations regarding printer drivers (HP) under Windows where the software is notoriously bloated and unreliable and it's unlikely to find high end consumer grade and professional level printers without easy to install Linux drivers where such devices aren't automatically supported out of the box under the kernel.

I had my Brother multifunction laser printer/scanner drivers set up in around 2 minutes including download time vs around 15 minutes including download time under Windows. The process couldn't have been easier and reliability is perfect, which is more than I can say for HP Windows drivers. I've also come across an outrageous number of perfectly good printers supported under Windows 7 that are no longer supported under Windows 10. Perspective is relevant.

If you're a professional requiring the use of specialized packages like the overpriced and under supported Adobe CC, stick with Windows. If you feel Microsoft Office, the worlds least compatible with ISO standards office suite marketed as the most compatible office suite is necessary - Stick with Windows. But bear in mind that most users don't fall into these categories and can quite easily get by using an alternative that's faster, respects their privacy, has a better updating process, is more secure and in many cases supports software that's available cross platform - I believe even Edge is being made available for Linux in the not too distant future.

When it comes to gaming, as stated Linux has quickly become the second most desirable platform under Steam when you consider full OGL compatibility, native Vulkan compatibility, Wine/DXVK/Proton support, overall driver availability (MacOS doesn't even support Nvidia hardware in it's latest iteration), quality of drivers, number of titles considering SteamPlay as well as diversity considering hardware platforms and cooling compared to devices that overheat easily by favoring sleek design over practicality - The only Apple device allowing for remotely decent cooling is the ~$50k Mac Pro, which is out of reach for most.

No small feat considering the amount of time Linux has been supported under Steam vs MacOS and especially Windows - No one's going to topple the OS that's on the device when you buy it unless Microsoft make a fatal decision that rightly pisses off their user base.

Please don't take this as a dig at yourself as that's by no means my intention, think of it as more of a comment in general. 100% agreed re: A computer is a tool and you use what's best for yourself and your situation.
 
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Bowman15

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Isn't that more on companies for not bothering to update drivers? Creative is well known for quickly abandoning products and having fairly shit drivers and ASUS has never been good on the software and driver side of things.
Bingo, people using broken Creative drivers as a reason to not like Windows do not know or gloss over the fact that they have been slow to non existent with driver updates and fixing issues basically forever. For every OS.

People don't think facts be like they do but they is.
 

KarsusTG

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I am a fan of the right tool for the job approach. I daily drive windows and linux and I find things like coding / development and general work stuff is just easier on linux. I think the primary reason for windows at this point is the MS Office monopoly and people that use their pc as a $3k gaming console. I think that as we push software as a service and it matures we will see the need for windows diminish.
 

Mazzspeed

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I am a fan of the right tool for the job approach. I daily drive windows and linux and I find things like coding / development and general work stuff is just easier on linux. I think the primary reason for windows at this point is the MS Office monopoly and people that use their pc as a $3k gaming console. I think that as we push software as a service and it matures we will see the need for windows diminish.
Modern Microsoft are vastly different to the Microsoft of old. I'm seeing Edge being ported to Linux, I'm seeing MS Teams being ported to Linux (even if it is an Electron wrapper) - I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually port MS Office to Linux.

It all hints to one thing: The NT kernel/NTFS file system is going to be retired.
 

VanGoghComplex

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I actually just finished my latest attempt at Linux. Lubuntu, in this case.

Installed, spent about three hours trying to get a common Netgear USB WiFi dongle to work, decided my time was worth more than $10/hr, and bought a $30 Win10 key instead.

This, unfortunately, is how most of my Linux attempts go.
 

Mazzspeed

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I actually just finished my latest attempt at Linux. Lubuntu, in this case.

Installed, spent about three hours trying to get a common Netgear USB WiFi dongle to work, decided my time was worth more than $10/hr, and bought a $30 Win10 key instead.

This, unfortunately, is how most of my Linux attempts go.
And once again, that's 100% the fault of Realtek. To provide an example for perspective, that's like spending 50k on the latest Mac Pro in order to try and run an Nvidia 2080Ti - It's not going to happen.

No OS is immune from driver issues and that includes Windows. Next time, get an Intel networking adapter, at minimum a supported Broadcom adapter. I've got a perfectly good printer here that won't run under Windows 10, but it runs fine out the box under Linux.

I've encountered driver issues regarding Realtek audio under Windows numerous times. Realtek is cheap garbage.
 

VanGoghComplex

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And once again, that's 100% the fault of Realtek. To provide an example for perspective, that's like spending 50k on the latest Mac Pro in order to try and run an Nvidia 2080Ti - It's not going to happen.

No OS is immune from driver issues and that includes Windows. Next time, get an Intel networking adapter, at minimum a supported Broadcom adapter. I've got a perfectly good printer here that won't run under Windows 10, but it runs fine out the box under Linux.

I've encountered driver issues regarding Realtek audio under Windows numerous times. Realtek is cheap garbage.
Why does it have to be anyone's fault? A free OS is lacking some pretty basic support for off-the-shelf consumer hardware. That's neither surprising nor damning. I just don't have the time to spend to make that stuff work.

I don't follow your Mac and Nvidia analogy. I built this box to serve as a head for the Raspberry Pi that's running my 3D printer. The most expensive component - the CPU/Mobo combo - cost $70. All I needed it to do was get on WiFi and run a web browser.

As for the "realtek is garbage" bit... well, I don't know what to tell you. I can plug the same dongle into any of my three other Windows machines, install the driver and it just works.
 

Nobu

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Why does it have to be anyone's fault? A free OS is lacking some pretty basic support for off-the-shelf consumer hardware. That's neither surprising nor damning. I just don't have the time to spend to make that stuff work.

I don't follow your Mac and Nvidia analogy. I built this box to serve as a head for the Raspberry Pi that's running my 3D printer. The most expensive component - the CPU/Mobo combo - cost $70. All I needed it to do was get on WiFi and run a web browser.

As for the "realtek is garbage" bit... well, I don't know what to tell you. I can plug the same dongle into any of my three other Windows machines, install the driver and it just works.
Realtek is great–the hardware that is supported has lots of useful features. Unfortunately (at least last I used it) it requires a binary blob from realtek. It really is unfortunate...
 

SmokeRngs

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I actually just finished my latest attempt at Linux. Lubuntu, in this case.

Installed, spent about three hours trying to get a common Netgear USB WiFi dongle to work, decided my time was worth more than $10/hr, and bought a $30 Win10 key instead.

This, unfortunately, is how most of my Linux attempts go.
It's ironic. You complain about the OS being the problem when the problem is the manufacturer of the hardware. If that piece of hardware hadn't worked in Windows you wouldn't be blaming MS for the problem, you're be blaming Netgear for a lack of drivers and rightfully so. But instead you go out of your way to complain about Linux when it's not the fault of the OS at all. That indicates a shortcoming of yourself rather than a shortcoming of the OS.
 

ManofGod

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It's ironic. You complain about the OS being the problem when the problem is the manufacturer of the hardware. If that piece of hardware hadn't worked in Windows you wouldn't be blaming MS for the problem, you're be blaming Netgear for a lack of drivers and rightfully so. But instead you go out of your way to complain about Linux when it's not the fault of the OS at all. That indicates a shortcoming of yourself rather than a shortcoming of the OS.
:rolleyes: :wtf: From what I understood, I thought the FOSS community and kernels provided those drivers. Oh well, guess they do not do so, after all.
 

Nobu

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:rolleyes: :wtf: From what I understood, I thought the FOSS community and kernels provided those drivers. Oh well, guess they do not do so, after all.
I would say most of the time they don't, in fact. It's just when the vendor doesn't, or when they make it easy for the community to support, that the community does the work (at least the minimum required for support). The exception being unsupported hardware that is ubiquitous, essential, but not supported by the vendor.
 

Derangel

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It's ironic. You complain about the OS being the problem when the problem is the manufacturer of the hardware. If that piece of hardware hadn't worked in Windows you wouldn't be blaming MS for the problem, you're be blaming Netgear for a lack of drivers and rightfully so. But instead you go out of your way to complain about Linux when it's not the fault of the OS at all. That indicates a shortcoming of yourself rather than a shortcoming of the OS.
I didn't read his post as blaming the OS, simply saying he didn't want to waste the time dealing with it. If you're asking someone to go out of their way to buy specific hardware in order to properly use an OS you are going to find a lot of people saying "screw this" and going back to what works with their hardware. I've had similar experiences with Linux over the years as well. If I need to spend hours looking for drivers for stuff to work or simply get told "that won't work, buy something else" then it's simply not worth my time to deal with it and I'm going to go go back to an OS that I know works with my hardware. Its not the fault of the OS nor really the manufacturers, they're not required to support every OS under the sun, but it is the reality of the situation and not everyone wants to deal with it.
 
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ChadD

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Why does it have to be anyone's fault? A free OS is lacking some pretty basic support for off-the-shelf consumer hardware. That's neither surprising nor damning. I just don't have the time to spend to make that stuff work.

I don't follow your Mac and Nvidia analogy. I built this box to serve as a head for the Raspberry Pi that's running my 3D printer. The most expensive component - the CPU/Mobo combo - cost $70. All I needed it to do was get on WiFi and run a web browser.

As for the "realtek is garbage" bit... well, I don't know what to tell you. I can plug the same dongle into any of my three other Windows machines, install the driver and it just works.
Ok free OS yes yes its free.

Linux is the best supported OS in existence. Linux is simply not consumer desktop only... and its not even close to the main target Linux developers are worried about.

Intel networking stuff just works, cause Intel make server grade networking gear. This means they have an actual Linux driver team and thus are very well supported as their Linux drivers are supplied by Intel. The same goes for most other big network companies... we are not in Linux year one development mode almost all hardware drivers for Linux are provided by the manufacturer. Basically no major hardware companies have zero Linux driver developers on staff. Realtek does not make real network or audio gear... they make inexpensive consumer grade stuff and as such feel they can skip providing proper Linux support as everything they sell goes to OEMs bundling windows home. Realtek is a company to avoid if you are a Linux user, most of their stuff works fine thanks to a handful of kind Linux coders mostly being paid by other companies. (companies like Red Hat SUSE and Canonical do a ton of Kernel work... and a major chunk of that is supporting crap like Realtek so the inexpensive workstations Red Hat consultants sell work, but they are often working in the dark and basic stuff works... while more advanced hardware functions are often spotty)

When it comes to networking stuff specifically... Intel and Broadcom chip based stuff are the 2 best options not just for Linux but basically any OS windows included. Intel contributes between 8-12% of all kernel changes every year... Broadcom 1-2%. That is a lot of code, a good chunk of that is top notch support for their hardware. Its real easy to go searching for the best Ethernet and WiFi adapters and finding lists that list the best... and its easy to see almost everything with a Realtek chipset has crap support in MacOS and Linux and damn near as bad support under windows as well. Lots of reports of issues with windows 10 or specific win 10 updates ect... realtek probably does make decent hardware but their software support is shit no matter what OS your using.
 
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ChadD

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:rolleyes: :wtf: From what I understood, I thought the FOSS community and kernels provided those drivers. Oh well, guess they do not do so, after all.
20 Years ago sure... 10 years ago mostly. Today no major hardware is dependent on drivers built by hobbyist.

All the major players in the industry contribute kernel code. Some of that work is actual kernel improvements. But the majority of it is hardware drivers and framework support for the same. Intel Samsung TI Broadcom AMD Nvidia ARM Cisco Fujitsu Imation Qlogic IBM Qualcom all contribute at min 1% of all kernel code... and you find all the smaller players further down the list of corporate contributed code.

Its true hobbyists (or at least people employed as Linux developers for other companies) do provide code for a good number of hardware bits, those examples are now the exception and outside of a handful of ass wipe companies like Realtek that support is mostly for hardware that is out of production. Very little in production doesn't have active paid Linux driver developers working on support.
 

Mazzspeed

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:rolleyes: :wtf: From what I understood, I thought the FOSS community and kernels provided those drivers. Oh well, guess they do not do so, after all.
The FOSS community reverse engineer Windows drivers. You cant create decent drivers when the manufacturer provides absolutely no documentation on how their hardware works. I would have thought this was common knowledge.

Once again, driver issues are a problem under all operating systems, Linux is no more an exception here than Windows or MacOS.
 

Mazzspeed

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I didn't read his post as blaming the OS, simply saying he didn't want to waste the time dealing with it. If you're asking someone to go out of their way to buy specific hardware in order to properly use an OS you are going to find a lot of people saying "screw this" and going back to what works with their hardware. I've had similar experiences with Linux over the years as well. If I need to spend hours looking for drivers for stuff to work or simply get told "that won't work, buy something else" then it's simply not worth my time to deal with it and I'm going to go go back to an OS that I know works with my hardware. Its not the fault of the OS nor really the manufacturers, they're not required to support every OS under the sun, but it is the reality of the situation and not everyone wants to deal with it.
And how is this any different to Windows or MacOS? Plenty of hardware not supported there.

There's reality, and then there's blind defense.
 

Derangel

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And how is this any different to Windows or MacOS? Plenty of hardware not supported there.

There's reality, and then there's blind defense.
Didn't say it was. People stick with 7 for many of the same reasons. Businesses stick with much older OSes for the same reason as well. However, the conversation was about Linux so my reply was talking about Linux and some of my experiences with it over the years. Bringing up irrelevant talking points would over serve to make the post longer and distract from the point.

Also, why do you keep bringing up Macs? Outside of the tiny Hackintosh scene (which is a hobbyist scene) no one is switching their current hardware over to MacOS or switching to MacOS without buying Apple hardware. It's a pretty silly thing to keep mentioning when it has absolutely zero connection to the conversation at hand.

I'll go a step further and state Realtek is a company best avoided if you're a Windows user. Realtek audio driver issues under Windows anyone?
I haven't run into Realtek related audio driver issues in I dunno the last half decade, give or take a year. Considering Realtek is, by far, the most commonly used audio chipset on motherboards these days it does seem like they've gotten a little better over the years. At least on boards with their newer and "upper-end" audio chipsets.
 

Mazzspeed

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Didn't say it was. People stick with 7 for many of the same reasons. Businesses stick with much older OSes for the same reason as well. However, the conversation was about Linux so my reply was talking about Linux and some of my experiences with it over the years. Bringing up irrelevant talking points would over serve to make the post longer and distract from the point.

Also, why do you keep bringing up Macs? Outside of the tiny Hackintosh scene (which is a hobbyist scene) no one is switching their current hardware over to MacOS or switching to MacOS without buying Apple hardware. It's a pretty silly thing to keep mentioning when it has absolutely zero connection to the conversation at hand.
And you're exaggerating driver issues under Linux. As stated, no OS is immune to driver and hardware compatibility issues including WIndows. Realtek sucks, their hardware is cheap garbage.

I refer to MacOS as it's a great example of how proprietary doesn't equal perfect. Furthermore, if I refer to Windows only Windows users get all bent out of shape and ask why I'm referring to Windows only.

If you can't get hardware working under WIndows 10 (yes, it's common), people are going to state "stick to Windows 7". How is the reaction from the Linux community any different?

I haven't run into Realtek related audio driver issues in I dunno the last half decade, give or take a year. Considering Realtek is, by far, the most commonly used audio chipset on motherboards these days it does seem like they've gotten a little better over the years. At least on boards with their newer and "upper-end" audio chipsets.
Dude, there was massive Realtek audio driver issues in relation to Windows 10 update only a couple of years ago. There's nothing 'high end' regarding a Realtek codec.
 
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Derangel

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And you're exaggerating driver issues under Linux. As stated, no OS is immune to driver and hardware compatibility issues including WIndows. Realtek sucks, their hardware is cheap garbage.

I refer to MacOS as it's a great example of how proprietary doesn't equal perfect. Furthermore, if I refer to Windows only Windows users get all bent out of shape and ask why I'm referring to Windows only.

If you can't get hardware working under WIndows 10 (yes, it's common), people are going to state "stick to Windows 7". How is the reaction from the Linux community any different?



Dude, there was massive Realtek audio driver issues in relation to Windows 10 update only a couple of years ago.
How, exactly, is talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCE exaggerating? Where, exactly, did I state Linux has a lot of driver problems? When, exactly, did I claim my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE applies to everyone? Did you intentionally ignore the fact that I explicitly stated that it happening wasn't the fault of the OS? Did you intentionally ignore the fact that I was talking about a specific situation and the reasons why that specific situation could cause people to move on? Stop acting like people sharing their experiences and issues with Linux are a personal attack against you.

Again: I haven't had any driver audio issues in years. I've been on Win10 since beta across multiple systems. I can only speak from personal experience. Also, if a Windows Update caused driver issues wouldn't that be the fault of the update breaking the drivers and not the company that made said drivers?
 

Mazzspeed

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I'm not acting like people sharing their experiences with Linux are a personal attack against myself, not too sure where you even got that idea from?

Talking from personal experience, there's a vast number of perfectly good printers that don't work under Windows 10, yet used to work perfectly under Windows 7 - Yet Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft. So rather than waste my time dealing with it, I'm going to use an OS that just works - That OS is Linux. Perhaps I took you out of context, I'm Man enough to admit that may be the case. However, any implication that Windows 10 is any more immune from driver issues than any other OS out there is blind defense - It's that simple.

When it comes to hardware that matters, I'd say modern Linux is almost on par with Windows. In fact when it comes to ease of driver installation considering Linux ships with many drivers as part of the kernel - I'd have to say Linux has a distinct advantage over Windows.

Again, as a tech working on the systems of the unwashed masses far away from the tightly controlled environments of corporate networks with a sample group that's far greater than my own PC - I can assure you that Realtek Audio drivers were causing a number of problems under Windows 10 a couple of years ago. On my Daughters NUC they still keep identifying the microphone as a speaker and the only way to rectify the problem is to reboot. As a result I now use an external DAC with no problems whatsoever.
 

Derangel

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I'm not acting like people sharing their experiences with Linux are a personal attack against myself, not too sure where you even got that idea from?

Talking from personal experience, there's a vast number of perfectly good printers that don't work under Windows 10, yet used to work perfectly under Windows 7 - Yet Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft. So rather than waste my time dealing with it, I'm going to use an OS that just works - That OS is Linux. Perhaps I took you out of context, I'm Man enough to admit that may be the case. However, any implication that Windows 10 is any more immune from driver issues than any other OS out there is blind defense - It's that simple.

When it comes to hardware that matters, I'd say modern Linux is almost on par with Windows. In fact when it comes to ease of driver installation considering Linux ships with many drivers as part of the kernel - I'd have to say Linux has a distinct advantage over Windows.

Again, as a tech working on the systems of the unwashed masses far away from the tightly controlled environments of corporate networks with a sample group that's far greater than my own PC - I can assure you that Realtek Audio drivers were causing a number of problems under Windows 10 a couple of years ago. On my Daughters NUC they still keep identifying the microphone as a speaker and the only way to rectify the problem is to reboot. As a result I now use an external DAC with no problems whatsoever.
No OS is immune to driver issues. Never has been and never will be. Like I said, people that run into driver issues that require them to buy new hardware are likely going to go back to what works with their hardware. I've had that experience with Windows as well. Early Vista and the abysmal graphics drivers from both AMD and Nvidia drove me back to XP on multiple occasions, not to mention the myriad of other driver issues present on early Vista. It also drove me to deciding see how Linux distros had improved in the few years since I'd tried them last. I think that was around when I tried Lindows (later called Linspire) because Mandrake and Red Hat had fallen out of favor as the choice for Linux newbies. At least I think thats what it was around that time.
 

Mazzspeed

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No OS is immune to driver issues. Never has been and never will be. Like I said, people that run into driver issues that require them to buy new hardware are likely going to go back to what works with their hardware. I've had that experience with Windows as well. Early Vista and the abysmal graphics drivers from both AMD and Nvidia drove me back to XP on multiple occasions, not to mention the myriad of other driver issues present on early Vista. It also drove me to deciding see how Linux distros had improved in the few years since I'd tried them last. I think that was around when I tried Lindows (later called Linspire) because Mandrake and Red Hat had fallen out of favor as the choice for Linux newbies. At least I think thats what it was around that time.
Agreed 100% on all accounts. Peace. ;)
 

GotNoRice

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Creative is well known for quickly abandoning products and having fairly shit drivers
Creative updated the drivers for the entire X-Fi lineup 6 months ago, including the first-gen X-Fi cards that came out in 2005. New drivers 14 years later = abandoned?
 
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Derangel

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Creative updated the drivers for the entire X-Fi lineup 6 months ago, including the first-gen X-Fi cards that came out in 2005. New drivers 14 years later = abandoned?
Color me surprised. That isn't Creative's usual MO.
 
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