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Street Fighter 4 Thread

i don't know which one has priority gief super/ultra or DP, but from this video EX tiger knee gets grabbed though from behind but if gief super/ultra has priority over DP/knee it shouldn't matter if it's from behind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB6YDVFM7bo#t=2m24s

I don't "study" SF4 so don't know if any of this is correct, but just point out something I saw in a video recently.
 
^ That's the kind of thing I've run into. I've grabbed Ryu and Ken out of EX dragon punches. Since the game pauses when you do an Ultra, you can see them in the pose and glowing yellow, although it doesn't seem to work if their feet have left the ground. There's something really odd about Zangief's grab ultra that at the very least seems to grab people out of some things that it probably shouldn't.
At the same time, I've also jumped at someone without attacking and executed Zangief's ultra right beside someone not moving (and not recovering from a move/jump/etc.) and had him completely whiff. I was literally so close that our sprites were overlapping.
Just one of those weird things that always makes me wonder about the mechanics of the game.
 
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Domingo said:
^ That's the kind of thing I've run into. I've grabbed Ryu and Ken out of EX dragon punches. Since the game pauses when you do an Ultra, you can see them in the pose and glowing yellow, although it doesn't seem to work if their feet have left the ground. There's something really odd about Zangief's grab ultra that at the very least seems to grab people out of some things that it probably shouldn't.
At the same time, I've also jumped at someone without attacking and executed Zangief's ultra right beside someone not moving (and not recovering from a move/jump/etc.) and had him completely whiff. I was literally so close that our sprites were overlapping.
Just one of those weird things that always makes me wonder about the mechanics of the game.
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Geifs grabs have always been "odd", and DP's have always been odd. Anyways on throws, taken directly from the SF4 wiki.....

Throws

Throws are performed by tilting the stick forward or neutral or backward, then pressing LP + LK. Normal throws hit on the third and fourth frame, making them some of the fastest normal moves in the game. Throws will connect against a guarding opponent, or during the startup of an opponent's attack. Throws will not connect against an airborne or knocked down opponent, against an opponent who is still in guard or hit stun following an attack or if they hit at the same time as an opponent's attack. Some characters have command throws that involve different joystick motions and have different properties.

Normal throws can be escaped by pressing LP + LK within 10 frames of the opponent starting to throw (within 7 frames of the throw hitting). Command throws cannot be escaped, but jumping can avoid them, as can properly timed or invincible attacks. Joystick motions during a throw escape don't matter, so you can for instance hold down/back on the stick and press LP + LK. This will result in an escape if the opponent tried to throw, and a crouching attack if they did something else.

I've bolded the important parts.

The key is with gief that his regular SPD has 2 frames on start-up, his super starts on frame 1, as does his ultra.

Often even though a character looks like they are attacking, they are still in their starting frames. Starting frames vs active frames for an attack are two different things, they are not in "active" state yet. This is why Geifs throws seem to grab all sorts of things that they should not, their speed.

If you want to beat the ultra, or even the super, you need to start with launching an attack that is also active on frame 1 and roll the cice :)

For shits and giggles, from the same wiki here is on ryu's LP DP

1~2f invincible, 3~4f cannot be thrown, 3~16f lower body invincibility 1-2 Frames completely invincible to any and everything, 3-4 he starts hitting and leaves the ground but only his lower body is invincible, he stops hitting on frame 14, but still retains lower body till frame 16.

hence why a lot of whacky stuff happens.
 
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my mind is actually blown now...all this just for zangief. i need to do a lot more reading on the game
 
To expand on what sd11 said:

The first comment about throws only landing in nuetral is somewhat misleading - as long as your opponent is not in active frames of a move that would collide with your hitbox the throw will land (i.e. Abel's awful anti-air throw).

On a side note: Abel's tornado throw will stuff any/all of Zangief's throws on wakeup. Backdash is one of your safest bets against Abel on wakeup.
 
Wackiness. I wish I could actually look things like this up at work.
I pretty much just know what I know from playing and watching.
Anyway - I suppose the MK/Ultra can be escaped, but I'd still highly recommend learning to do it :)
I'm sure it's related to the frame data, but when you do the low MK and use and EX version of the Zangief piledriver, the whole game seems to pause for a milisecond before he grabs them. I've had people get out of that one before, but it's one scenario where it almost feels like a glitch when you see how many moves that grab overpowers. I've grabbed out of Abel's ultra with that one.
 
Gillette said:
To expand on what sd11 said:

The first comment about throws only landing in nuetral is somewhat misleading - as long as your opponent is not in active frames of a move that would collide with your hitbox the throw will land (i.e. Abel's awful anti-air throw).

On a side note: Abel's tornado throw will stuff any/all of Zangief's throws on wakeup. Backdash is one of your safest bets against Abel on wakeup.
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I'm guessing you're referring to a wake-up attack on a downed Abel. In that case, at least in theory, couldn't Zangief execute a jab piledriver as a wake-up that's simply outside of Abel's grab range? The Zangief jab piledriver should reach further than any of Abel's grabs, EX or otherwise shouldn't it? Granted, if you see someone outside of range there should be other options (circle kick, jump back, backdash, etc.)...but I think that should probably beat Abel's wake up counter grab.

If you mean when Abel is playing wake-up against Zangief...that probably makes sense. Obviously there are other things you'd do as a wake-up instead. Granted, every character has a zillion wake-up strategies, so that opens a gigantic can of worms anyway.

Anyhow my grand point of all of this is that I still think Zangief's low MK into any form of grab is a very valuable tool. The ultra version might not be inescapable, but I think you're going to find very few people that can escape it, especially online when you can't see the other guy's hands making circle motions. I've played about 3200 matches online, with about half of those as Zangief. I have yet to have someone escape when the kick lands.
 
Domingo said:
Wackiness. I wish I could actually look things like this up at work.
I pretty much just know what I know from playing and watching.
Anyway - I suppose the MK/Ultra can be escaped, but I'd still highly recommend learning to do it :)
I'm sure it's related to the frame data, but when you do the low MK and use and EX version of the Zangief piledriver, the whole game seems to pause for a milisecond before he grabs them. I've had people get out of that one before, but it's one scenario where it almost feels like a glitch when you see how many moves that grab overpowers. I've grabbed out of Abel's ultra with that one.
Click to expand...

On ultras, not all ultras start hitting on frame 1, some don't hit until later. In general though, the invincibility frames work in a way that you still have invincibility frames up to, and for the start of, the moves active frames... though this is not always the case.

I've played about 3200 matches online, with about half of those as Zangief. I have yet to have someone escape when the kick lands.
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Don't evaluate anything about a fighting game from online play. Even with "good" netcode the lag screws up all sorts of stuff. If you're not the type of person that exploits frames, you won't notice. If you are that type of technical player, online will drive you bonkers. None the less, frame data helps explain some things well.

Anyhow my grand point of all of this is that I still think Zangief's low MK into any form of grab is a very valuable tool.
Click to expand...

Not disputing that. But it can be escaped and it's not 100% sure. Though online lag, may help it seem so. In an actual match, you should be aware there are ways about this.

and...... http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Street_Fighter_IV

All the frame data you could want :)

I'm sure it's related to the frame data, but when you do the low MK and use and EX version of the Zangief piledriver, the whole game seems to pause for a milisecond before he grabs them. I've had people get out of that one before, but it's one scenario where it almost feels like a glitch when you see how many moves that grab overpowers.
Click to expand...

There are ways to force a "glitch" with various types of throws. Namely kara throws. Where you use the forward motion of a move to extend the range of a throw, or in some cases push it out faster. Ken is a good example with his kicks.

As an Akuma player one kara trick I always use is his overhead forward + mp. If you press forward + all three punches at the same time, and then as the animation starts put in the directional motion and the light kick part of the raging demon command, releasing hard punch last you can either move forward into the demon, or cancel out of the first frame of the over head punch into instant super.
 
Most the thread has just been fans of the game chatting about it
I've never really messed with SF4 frame data before so learning how the throw properties in SF4 work has been pretty interesting.
I used be into fighting games that much but that was a loooong time ago when I had a lot more time on my hands.
That's pretty much what the last page or so has been about - the ins and outs of when you can grab people, and what they can do to escape. In general, something I thought was inescapable can be escaped after all, but online play makes it pretty damned difficult. Offline (and against tournament-level players) - I'm sure it's a different story.
SF4 changes some of the throw mechanics from older games, so you'll see that reflected above :)
 
Hulk said:
anyone have cliff notes on this thread?
Click to expand...

For the most part, you ignore my posts in this thread unless you want to dissect frame data on the ins and outs of the game engine.

Offline (and against tournament-level players) - I'm sure it's a different story.
Click to expand...

Thing is, that's where you should debate what is, and is not, possible. Funny thing, and I do compete off and on, most of the "wow, how in the hell did he do that crap", can be explained by frame data. Nobody counts frames, it's not possible, but knowing what is possible, can help you cream the snot out of some scrub that isn't aware of these things. At the same time, knowing frame data equates to jack shit without the technical skills to back it up. Fighting games have an odd learning curve. Once you master the basics, then you start zone games, after that, it's all about knowing what is, and is not, possible. Then you chuck the dice and take your shot.

SF4 changes some of the throw mechanics from older games, so you'll see that reflected above
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Indeed. In the older games, throws were god, not the case now. But even still, I remember a top player (pretty sure it was wolfe or sirlin) had a vid with guile getting out of EVERY gief throw trap with a flash kick. Nigh impossible for the mere mortal, but it was a proof of point. This was SF2 super turbo era.

Plus frame data is fun, it gives us kara throws and other such bullshit. As a person who mains Akuma, it's nearly a must to be any sort of competent. Don't read to much into it, a lot of it doesn't make any sense (I'm convinced all SF games were programed by baboons on crack), but it's worth knowing that you do you have an option in any situation.
 
Domingo said:
I'm guessing you're referring to a wake-up attack on a downed Abel. In that case, at least in theory, couldn't Zangief execute a jab piledriver as a wake-up that's simply outside of Abel's grab range?
Click to expand...

Yes... but the point is Zangief is waking up and Abel is already in active frames of his grab. Gief's only options at that point are to backdash or jump. It takes precise timing on Abel's part and generally doesn't work for shit online.

Again, just a friendly reminder tip for Gief players in that matchup.

sd11 said:
Then you chuck the dice and take your shot.
Click to expand...

Thank god fighting games don't have RNG - there's a reason I stopped playing WoW :p
 
Yes... but the point is Zangief is waking up and Abel is already in active frames of his grab. Gief's only options at that point are to backdash or jump. It takes precise timing on Abel's part and generally doesn't work for shit online.

Again, just a friendly reminder tip for Gief players in that matchup.
Click to expand...

That's not exactly what's going on ;)

Properties of a jab SPD

Spinning Piledriver LP 200 100 2 2 52 55
200 damage, 100 stun, start-up 2, active 2, recover 52, total 55 (don't ask me where that last frame comes from), but possess no special properties.

Able, properties of his grab on jab
Tornado Throw LP 180 100 5 2 51 57

Worth noting here is that he has a 5 frame start up, and only 2 active frames. In theory he should loose out, but things get funky with his special properties. Which are 1~6f cannot be thrown, doh! So durring his start up, and active frames, he can't be thrown! So Gief will loose out every time if you both input at the same time, if Gief goes for a counter throw, or if Abel goes for the counter... this assumes no lag. Hence why making a judgement about the game from online doesn't equate for shit.

A friendly FYI, throw range DECREASES if you use a harder punch :confused: IE for Geif, LP has a range of 1.65, mp 1.45, hp, 1.35. Able, and all others, follow a similar pattern. So the LP version of any command grab is always going to have longer range, that's important. For the record, Abel's grab HP is .9 :eek:

For both of them, start up and active frames do not change.

In a nutshell, Don't try and wake up throw Abel with Geif, somebody that knows what they are doing will slaughter you for that.

Thank god fighting games don't have RNG - there's a reason I stopped playing WoW :p
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Yes they do! It's called online play, it screws of frame data play so badly that a lot of high level gameplay goes out the window.:p
 
Man so how about SUPER Streetfighter 4? I think I might get this one too. I like the new costumes, new ultras, and new characters, plus the tournament mode options are great. Am I allowed to be excited or is this another L4D2 situation where i should boycott it?
 
Super's going to be great. They're adding a lot of new characters (including 2 of my faves, T. Hawk and Adon), different supers and ultras, bonus stages, costumes, etc.
They're also re-balancing some of the characters from normal SF4 (like toning down Sagat's damage and making Abel's sweep quicker) to make the game more evenly matched as well.
There are way too many things to simply make it DLC, so they're selling it as a new game. I'd say it not much different than say...Alpha 2 to Alpha 3.

Supposedly it'll be less than the price of a full game, so you might as well grab it if you're a fan.
I'm sure the normal SF4 community will live and thrive (probably Sagat fans and serious arcade junkies) but you'll see a lot of people move over to this one quickly.
 
We have been talking about it on and off at work. From what I gather you can't FADC from T-Hawk's Tomahawk Buster.
 
XLeezardx said:
Hahahah domingo and his Sagat grudges. How you doing?
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I'll forever hate the Sagat from SF4 :) You'd think they would've programmed a weakness in there somewhere...or at least give him an ultra that didn't clear 1/2 the screen and have the ability to combo. You just have to wonder how they can have Sagat/Zangief/Ryu and Rose/Vega in the same game and honestly think that they're comparable.

I'm psyched for Super, though. Adon was my go-to character in the alpha games and I can see him eating the shoryuken crew for lunch in SF4. I'm a little curious how his moves will work, though. They've changed how you do his moves in every game so far!
 
I played SF4 for a few days but never got used to it. Well...I just won a brand new Hori Real Arcade EX-SE so I may have to give it another whirl (with a stock 360 controller it sucked). We'll see...
 
SF4 takes some getting used to, but once you pick it up I think you'll like it. While I prefer the Alpha games and even Super Turbo, I prefer SF4 to SF3. It's not for everyone as there are definitely balance issues. The gap between the top 3-4 characters and the bottom 3-4 is pretty huge. Depending on who you play (Vega for instance) you might not ever truly enjoy SF4 just because your character is nerfed.
 
I always liked Ken when I played (not that I was ever very good). I hated Zangief, Bison, and a few others.
 
Ken is okay in SF4, so no fears there. He does good damage, his Ultra pretty much shuts down any normal attacks done anywhere near him, and he (and Ryu) have some mean sequences you can do with jabs that can lock people down.
Zangief and Bison are both extremely good, but you don't have to play with them to win or anything. You'll run into a lot of Zangiefs spamming the lariat, though. Bison players aren't that common, but if you're matched with one you might as well nix throwing any long distance fireballs.
 
Domingo said:
Supposedly it'll be less than the price of a full game, so you might as well grab it if you're a fan.
I'm sure the normal SF4 community will live and thrive (probably Sagat fans and serious arcade junkies) but you'll see a lot of people move over to this one quickly.
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As for price Amazon has it for pre-sale for $39.82, so I'd assume MSRP is $40.
 
Is Super Street Fighter 4 announced/dated for the PC yet? Amazon doesn't even list a product page for it... :(.
 
kabob983 said:
I played SF4 for a few days but never got used to it. Well...I just won a brand new Hori Real Arcade EX-SE so I may have to give it another whirl (with a stock 360 controller it sucked). We'll see...
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Sweet! How did you win it? You'll probably like SF4 more as you get used to it. I think one of the main things you should do is to find some people around you to actually learn the game with. I've always liked fighting games ever since SF2, but I never really took the time to sit down and learn the ins and outs of them until 3rd Strike while I was in college. Having a group of friends to attempt to beat down on a regular basis helps you get better a lot faster and makes it a lot more fun. :).

GoldenTiger said:
Is Super Street Fighter 4 announced/dated for the PC yet? Amazon doesn't even list a product page for it... :(.
Click to expand...
No. 360 and PS3 at the moment. Hopefully they announce a PC and Arcade release eventually.
 
I'm hoping for a return of Zangief's air slam from Alpha 3. People love jumping straight up to beat 'Gief's lariat, but that super/ultra would put a serious hurt on that strategy. That would also give him a better match with Bison, too.

With T. Hawk, while the FADC into an ultra would be nice - I think the instant throw vulnerability will play into his hands very well. I can imagine knocking someone down and doing a quick condor dive (while they're grounded) and mixing up the ultra or any number of other moves as a wake-up.

Anyone know if you have to select one ultra/super or if you get access to both?
 
Mikhal said:
Sweet! How did you win it? You'll probably like SF4 more as you get used to it. I think one of the main things you should do is to find some people around you to actually learn the game with. I've always liked fighting games ever since SF2, but I never really took the time to sit down and learn the ins and outs of them until 3rd Strike while I was in college. Having a group of friends to attempt to beat down on a regular basis helps you get better a lot faster and makes it a lot more fun. :).
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"Won" as in "highest bidder on Ebay auction." Yeah, when I had the game the first time I didn't really know how it all worked and just sorta jumped in. Seth whooped me (on Medium), online I got destroyed...I quickly sold it.
 
Domingo said:
I'm hoping for a return of Zangief's air slam from Alpha 3. People love jumping straight up to beat 'Gief's lariat, but that super/ultra would put a serious hurt on that strategy. That would also give him a better match with Bison, too.

With T. Hawk, while the FADC into an ultra would be nice - I think the instant throw vulnerability will play into his hands very well. I can imagine knocking someone down and doing a quick condor dive (while they're grounded) and mixing up the ultra or any number of other moves as a wake-up.

Anyone know if you have to select one ultra/super or if you get access to both?
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Zangief has a new Ultra called the Siberian Blizzard. It's an air grab Ultra like you wanted, but it isn't an anti-air where he physically jumps in the air to grab the opponent like in Alpha 3. You can see it along with most of the other new Ultras in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPWDCxh-u44

Ultras are selectable before the match like in the SF3 games so most characters only have 1 Ultra during the match. Gen or course has 2 (1 for each stance). Sakura's 2nd Ultra (Shinku Hadouken) can be done horizontally (not shown in video) and diagonally upwards depending on the motion you use. Blanka has a ground (not shown in video, think of the beginning of his 1st Ultra where he electrifies the ground near him except it has a lot farther range) and vertical ant-air variant on his 2nd Ultra too.

kabob983 said:
"Won" as in "highest bidder on Ebay auction." Yeah, when I had the game the first time I didn't really know how it all worked and just sorta jumped in. Seth whooped me (on Medium), online I got destroyed...I quickly sold it.
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Ah okay. Thought you got it in a contest or something which would have been awesome! Great purchase regardless!
 
Yeah, I'm excited...gotta sell off the XFPS to fund it so the wife doesn't kill me though.
 
Thanks for the video Mikhal!
Looks like Zangief's is a mid-air grab of some kind? They just show him jumping and it looks like El Spazzo just warped into his arms.

T. Hawk's other ultra looks exactly like Zangief's old one. Not sure he needed that since he already has a good anti-air? Oh well - it looks really cool.

Lots of those look like grabs now...which I like. If you're down and someone's turtling, that'll be a handy way to make a comeback. Because of the nature of the ultras in normal SF4...you're almost forced to turtle when someone has one. I can imagine that more grab ultras will help that.

Vega's new one looks like a low hitting slide with a lot of range, which is also handy. Hopefully they'll boost his damage to go along with that.
 
I main cammy and im not too excited for her new ultra in ssf4... Counter-ultra? Meh... doesn't sound that great, but we'll see. I also play chun equally (well maybe cammy more) and I like how they added her big fire ball ultra back.

I'm pretty hyped for the new chars though. I never played the alpha series, so theres alot of new faces. Also, Juri has peaked my interest, though I know she'll be pretty weak health-wise, she looks so fun to play.

So many good games coming out this year...
 
I took Cammy's to be one of the grab ultras, but it's hard to tell with some of them. I always thought she needed some kind of special grab (other than the hooligan) just to round out all of her poking.
One of Juri's appeared to simply enable a bunch of chain combos, which I guess could be devastating or weak depending on how it's implemented.

Last I check, SSF4 had been delayed until April/May, so at the very least it won't coincide with the millions of games that have come out or will come out really soon.
 
its actually a counter-ultra. She'd have to get hit once for the ultra to activate... But who would hit you if you see the ultra animation flash for a good amount of time? Bleh, idk. Maybe it will be good, who knows... but so far, its not really in my favor. It would be nice if it was just a grab ultra though.
 
A counter ultra could work as long as it's not picky about high/low and as long as it comes out really quick. Then you could use it for everything from an anti-air to a poke stopper, to just about anything. However if it's slow or high/low only then it ends up being like Gouken where every fight turns into a throw-fest.
 
Alright, if I can find a copy of SFIV for the 360 cheapish I'll pick it up. My biggest gripe when I previous owned it was that I couldn't control anything with the 360 controller. With the new stick coming (hopefully it'll be here today or tomorrow) that problem will hopefully be remedied (I've never been good with a stick but I've not spent much time using one either, hopefully I'll catch on quickly!). I would just hold off and get SSFIV when it comes out but I figure I might as well learn the game mechanics before it's released, although the Taekwando girl looks interesting (Juri?).
 
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