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STL's New Computer - Final Spec

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Originally posted by jblair
[fugu]

> might want to look into maxtor or fujitsu for your scsi drives. iirc they've passed seagate in
> server performance.

Really?
Click to expand...

http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200304/20030429MAS3735_sp.html

yep, right now the 15k.3 isn't even 2nd place

not too surprising though. maxtor was the champ of the 10K scsi drives and although seagate was first to the market with a 15K drive fujitsu's first one ended up being faster. fujitsu is about to release another drive pretty soon too so he might want to wait on that if he's already waiting for the 3.4 prescott.
 
[Black Morty Rackham]
> Don't ask for our input if you don't want us to know your reasoning.

I don't want to hear that my choice of processor sucks. That's a fixed quantity now. I want to know about obscure problems that will prevent me from integrating everything. For example, I had to look up the current draw of hard drives.
Click to expand...

I didn't say your choice of processor sucks. I did, however, question your logic behind choosing a processor. If you do development work and want to see how your code behaves, wouldn't it make sense to build several cheaper computers with as many diverse platforms as possible and one powerhouse with dual (quad?) Opterons and SCSI-drives (or even flash memory?) instead? I do not understand your reasons for not liking AMD. You don't like them because you don't like them? Maybe I'm just weird, but I think that makes no sense what-so-ever.
Anyway... the Prescotts are nice, sure, but for what it seems you intend to do, the Opterons are a better choice. If you're set-in-stone about using Intel, could you please just explain why?


> x86 isn't exactly the platform of the future.

I've got one person telling me that x86-64 is the future, and another saying that it isn't.
Click to expand...

Note the "exactly." x86-64 has more room to grow than x86 without 64-bit extensions and thusly seems to be the logical choice with the future in mind. Add to that the fact that AMD are doing quite nicely spreading their x86-64 processors...



All this being said, you're building a kick-ass computer and I wish I could have one like it. But if I had $10,000 to spend on a computer, I'd build it completely differently. So I'm trying to give you my view on the matter, in case it helps.
 
[fugu]
> might want to look into maxtor or fujitsu for your scsi drives.
> iirc they've passed seagate in server performance.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I'm not married to Seagate, but my X15-36LP has treated me very well. I guess with RAID-1 I don't have to worry about the reliability of individual drives.

Hmm.

[EnderW]
> if you don't have anything against Hitachi, you might also look at
> their 7K250 line as apposed to those WD's

The performance of the mass storage array doesn't really matter.

> fujitsu is about to release another drive pretty soon too so he
> might want to wait on that if he's already waiting for the 3.4
> prescott.

Yeah. Perhaps I'll do that, if the cost isn't insane.
 
[Black Morty Rackham]
> If you do development work and want to see how your code behaves,
> wouldn't it make sense to build several cheaper computers with as
> many diverse platforms as possible

Caltech has a dual Opteron with 16 GB of memory. I still have to get an account on that...

> If you're set-in-stone about using Intel, could you please just
> explain why?

Intel dominates the market. If I'm going to have a single badass computer, it may as well have the processor that everyone's going to use.
 
Originally posted by STL
[fugu]
> might want to look into maxtor or fujitsu for your scsi drives.
> iirc they've passed seagate in server performance.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I'm not married to Seagate, but my X15-36LP has treated me very well. I guess with RAID-1 I don't have to worry about the reliability of individual drives.

Hmm.
Click to expand...

yeah, i really like mine. as it stands now though i'm pretty tempted to go with a raptor for my next computer. my computer is mostly a CAD workstation/gaming box so the single user performance is more important than server performance, but at the same time the principle of going back to some kind of ATA seems wrong =b oh well
 
Originally posted by STL
[Black Morty Rackham]
> If you do development work and want to see how your code behaves,
> wouldn't it make sense to build several cheaper computers with as
> many diverse platforms as possible

Caltech has a dual Opteron with 16 GB of memory. I still have to get an account on that...

> If you're set-in-stone about using Intel, could you please just
> explain why?

Intel dominates the market. If I'm going to have a single badass computer, it may as well have the processor that everyone's going to use.
Click to expand...

That's all I wanted to know. :D
But does code really behave all that differently on Intel's and AMD's processors?
 
Originally posted by STL
[EnderW]
> Well if that's true, then SCSI is definitely a better choice. The
> Raptor still gets owned in the server benches, which ironically is
> what it's supposed to be designed for.

Heh.

> Yeah I guess, but it's kinda of a long shot. I can understand why
> you'd want to be sure though, spending that kind of money.

Exactly. I don't want to buy all of the stuff and then find out that it doesn't work together. (As I said, a friend bought the 8KNXP-Ultra and couldn't boot from SCSI.)

> Sounds interesting, but I don't want to learn about it, b/c right
> now I love my LCD and I don't want to ruin that.

Yeah, heh.

[Tooden]
> I'm sure they'll actually beable

Beable! Beable beable beable!
Click to expand...



Apparently you know Im correct and instead just picked on one spelling typo. Good job fuck tard.
 
Looked at the 7K250 on SR and HM. Performance is basically identical to the WD2500JD (a little faster, not that I'd notice). More importantly, I'd end up paying $320 more for them. Nah.

The Fujitsu MAS3735 has an impressive 25% higher STR at the end of the disk than the 15k.3, and performance is maybe 10% higher.

It's not available from HyperMicro or NewEgg though. ZipZoomFly carries it for $491, which would be like $531 after tax. That's cheaper than HyperMicro's 15k.3.

Looks like you may have a convert.
 
Originally posted by STL
I'm building a new computer before I graduate, and this is (hopefully) the final spec. I'm pretty sure I won't have any compatibility problems, but I'm posting the spec so everyone can look it over and scream at me if I'm doing something really stupid.

(For example, I was going to use the GA-8KNXP Ultra Rev 2.0's onboard SCSI to do SCSI RAID-1, until a friend got that board and tried to boot from non-RAID SCSI, and had horrible driver problems doing so. He ended up booting from IDE.)

I think my biggest worry right now is making sure that the SCSI RAID-1 takes boot priority over the SATA RAID-5.

The general gist of this computer is a Prescott-3.4 with 4GB DDR400, booting from SCSI RAID-1 with a 1.6 TB SATA RAID-5 mass storage array. It lives in a new PC-76 with lots of fans and is attached to dual 21" CRTs.

I've bought about $1000 of this already (the case, fans, etc.) and about $2000 is being carried over from my current computer. I'm waiting until the Prescott-3.4 is released to buy the real goodies.

$469 - Prescott-3.4 - http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merc...ore_Code=M&Product_Code=120150&AFFIL=FRG&NR=1
$198 - Gigabyte GA-8KNXP Rev 2.0 - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProdu...128-185&catalog=280&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0
$1120 - 2x 2GB Corsair DDR400 TWINX2048-3200 - http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-486&DEPA=0
$400 - ASUS GFFX 5950 Ultra - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-121-165&catalog=48&depa=0
$239 - Enermax EG851AX-VH (W) FM - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProdu...-103-438&catalog=58&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0
$366.78 - New Lian Li PC-76 - http://www.sundialmicro.com/cgi-bin/sundial/pc76.html
$42.44 - Lian Li PC-7x Silver Window Side Panel - http://www.so-trickcomputers.com/Me...en=PROD&Product_Code=LL75WS&Category_Code=LLC
$147 - Netgear GS108 - http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProdu...catalog=30&manufactory=1233&description=gs108
$176 - Plextor Black PX-708A Retail - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProdu...7-131-311&catalog=5&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0
$240 - 3x Pioneer Silver DVD-120S - http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=127
$89.50 - Audigy 2 ZS - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProdu...-102-162&catalog=57&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0
$1752 - 8x 250GB WD2500JD - http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=HDWD112&dept_id=06-002
$1120 - 2x 73GB 15k.3 - http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=HDSE306&dept_id=06-005
$475 - 3ware Escalade 8506-8 SATA RAID Controller [includes 8x SATA cables] - http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=CT3W119&dept_id=13-005
$209 - Adaptec 29320-R - http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=CTAD205&dept_id=13-003
$29 - 4-position twisted-to-flat SCSI cable - http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=CAHM205&dept_id=01-002
$6 - 2x IDE cables - http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=CAHM104&dept_id=01-006
$50 - 2x HD Brackets (3 Drives In 2 Optical Bays) - http://www.rackmountpro.com/productpage.cfm?prodid=1337
$37.48 - 100x A14385-ND [Connector]
$11.61 - 100x A25438-ND [End Cover]
$12.03 - 100x A25439-ND [Thru Cover]
$43.80 - MCX4000
$45 - 4x Vantec Tornado 92x38mm TD9238H Fans - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/van92tor.html
$118.65 - 7x Delta 80x38mm FFB0812EHE Fans - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/del80ffb08123.html
$74.85 - 3x Delta 120x38mm FFB1212EHE Fans - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/delffb1212eh.html
$10 - 4x Gold 92mm Fan Grilles - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/92golfanguar.html
$17.50 - 7x Gold 80mm Fan Grilles - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/80golfanguar.html
$7.50 - 3x Gold 120mm Fan Grilles - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/12golgril.html
$5 - 100 Black Fan Screws - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/100blacfansc.html
$5 - 100 Chrome Fan Screws - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/100chfansc.html
$7.95 - Arctic Silver 5 - http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/arcticsilver5.html
$8.89 - ARISTA 18-315 10 Foot 3.5mm Headphone Extension Cable
$11 - 2x 120mm Aluminum Fan Filters - http://www.directron.com/cr235nd.html
$34 - 2x Blue, 2x Red 12" Sunbeam Cold Cathode Lights (Dual Inverter) - http://www.directron.com/dualkit.html
$12 - 6x Three T-Shaped Molex Connector Extension Cables - http://www.directron.com/tide.html
$1508.38 - 2x Sony CPD-G520P
$66.98 - Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro USB
$40 - Microsoft Hovermouse Explorer 3.0
$390 - Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Speakers

Comments:
I specifically want the highest-end Prescott, and not an Extreme Edition.
I'll upgrade to NV40 or NV45 when it comes out.
There is an old PC-76 (the one reviewed by Dan's Data), so I made sure to get the new one.
I'll upgrade to the PX-712SA when it becomes available.
The original Audigy has treated me well. Yes, people say bad things about Creative. No, I don't feel like switching until Creative gives me problems.
The Axxxxx-ND are right-angled Molex connectors from Digi-Key. They rock.
I bought a few extra fans (only need one 92, six 80s, two 120s). I ended up using the chrome fan screws.
I'll need one fan filter for the top intake of the new PC-76. The right-angled molex connectors will go on the extension cables; I'm not quite confident enough to stick them on my PSU wires.

The total cost of the computer will be about $10,000 (yeesh).

The machine will boot XP Pro. Earlier versions of my spec tried to use a mix of non-PCI-saturating SATA and IDE with software RAID-5, until I found that only Windows Server 2003 does that. I eventually gave up and resorted to PCI-saturating hardware RAID-5, and then figured out how to cram 20 hard drives in a single machine. The whole PCI thing bugs me, but I can't do anything about it (I can't wait the year or longer it'll take for PCI Express mobos and RAID cards to be released).

Aside from upgrading the video card and DVD burner, the computer has room for a second SATA RAID-5 array of 8 drives. Thanks to the special HD brackets, I even have space for 2 further drives (perhaps ICH5R SATA RAID-1).

To install the second array I would have to remove two of the DVD-120S opticals.

With current technology I can put about 3.2 TB in the machine (just add a second array identical to the first). The ultimate storage capacity of the machine is 6 TB (achieved with three 8506-8's and 400+ GB drives, when they come out). When I add a second array, I can transfer the first array's contents over, and then replace those drives. It may be possible to have even more storage, assuming even larger drives come out in the future, and 3ware produces a PCI-33-compatible card without a 2TB limit. However, I figure that by the time I exhaust 3.2 TB, I'll be able to buy another computer with PCI-Express and who knows what.

Anyone see anything wrong with this? Yes, it's a big machine - I want to make sure it will work. (I have even worried about the current draw from the wall; I /think/ it won't trip the circuit breakers.)
Click to expand...

WTF DUDE Are u running a whole fucking industry off of one computer? I mean WTF do u need all that juicy stuff for? I would be happy to have 1gb or GENERIC ran let alone 4 GB Corsair..... IOW

*Drooooooooooooooooool*
 
[Tooden]

> Apparently you know Im correct and instead just picked on one spelling typo.

There are other "spelling typo"s to pick on if you find beable offensive.

Beable beable.
 
And personally, who is saying that x86-64 isn't the future? Intel sure is saying it, they're USING it. And so does AMD.

Forseeable future: Intel will launch Yamhill probably in under 2 years. I'd call that forseeable future. They're going with x86-64. After that, I would expect that just about any last things that haven't made at least a partial migration would within 6 months.

I'd say that's pretty fast, especially for the tech world. And, if you're a developer, you'll want to be ahead on things and started on programming for it/knowing how to use it, or you'll be like those that thought the world was flat when Columbus sailed.

So, what in the world are you going to use 1.6tb for?

I'm not AGAINST your system, I'm just curious, and I like to make people think about what they're doing.
 
Can we have pics when you get it finished? ... Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top? :p



"Whenever i see your name, I think 'Imhotep', from the mummy.." -Vendetta, on my name
Click to expand...

Every time I see your signature, I think it says "for my mommy" instead of "from the mummy"... :p
 
Originally posted by STL
[lopoetve]
> There are also monitors out there that are a HELL of a lot better
> then that Sony.

Lies, all lies!

The CPD-G520P supports 1600x1200@100 and has a .24mm aperture grille pitch across the entire screen. I don't see how you can get "a HELL of a lot better than that", aside from the GDM-F520 (which has a .22mm pitch).
Click to expand...

NEC FP2141 SB-BK. 1600x1200 @ 120hz, .24mm, perfect flat, trinitron tube, atually reviewed with better color reproduction than the Sony :)

http://shop.monitorsdirect.com/product.asp?sku=2018207

EDIT: Not to mention cheaper. And black == sexah.
 
Originally posted by ChappyChaps11
WTF DUDE Are u running a whole fucking industry off of one computer? I mean WTF do u need all that juicy stuff for? I would be happy to have 1gb or GENERIC ran let alone 4 GB Corsair..... IOW

*Drooooooooooooooooool*
Click to expand...

Keep it in your pants, mister! :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by RS3RS
Can we have pics when you get it finished? ... Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top? :p





Every time I see your signature, I think it says "for my mommy" instead of "from the mummy"... :p
Click to expand...

LOL :D
 
[lopoetve]

> So, what in the world are you going to use 1.6tb for?

Reading his website reveals work on a data compressor. Considering the size of the files he is testing his compressor on, he may want the extra storage space so he keep track of what happens between individual steps of compression (as from my reading, the compressor uses fancy algorithims.) Being able to examine really big files may enable him to figure out better ways of doing things.

OTOH, everyone likes pr0n.
 
With the type of money you're throwing down on a system, you could just as easily buy a spac station, if you're a real programmer.
 
[RS3RS]
> Can we have pics when you get it finished? ... Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

Hilariously, I don't own a digital camera. I've been looking at the Canon PowerShot G5.

[lopoetve]
> NEC FP2141 SB-BK. 1600x1200 @ 120hz

Impressive. Not even the GDM can do that.

OTOH, I already own two CPDs, and 100Hz is really quite nice (though 120Hz is certainly better).

I think I'd like a .22mm pitch better than 120Hz. The CPD isn't razor-sharp at 1600x1200@100.
 
Originally posted by jblair
[lopoetve]

> So, what in the world are you going to use 1.6tb for?

Reading his website reveals work on a data compressor. Considering the size of the files he is testing his compressor on, he may want the extra storage space so he keep track of what happens between individual steps of compression (as from my reading, the compressor uses fancy algorithims.) Being able to examine really big files may enable him to figure out better ways of doing things.
Click to expand...

Ooookay, that explains the need for space. :eek: :D


STL, btwzip looks interesting indeed.
 
I've got to find some time to work on it. I'm sure I can do better than 50N memory usage.

How many people do you know who have the human genome sitting around on their computer? :->
 
Originally posted by STL
I've got to find some time to work on it. I'm sure I can do better than 50N memory usage.

How many people do you know who have the human genome sitting around on their computer? :->
Click to expand...

I find the human genome is rather messy, so I keep it in a jar rather than in my computer.
 
Originally posted by STL
How many people do you know who have the human genome sitting around on their computer? :->
Click to expand...
How much space does that take?
 
Originally posted by STL
[RS3RS]
> Can we have pics when you get it finished? ... Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

Hilariously, I don't own a digital camera. I've been looking at the Canon PowerShot G5.

[lopoetve]
> NEC FP2141 SB-BK. 1600x1200 @ 120hz

Impressive. Not even the GDM can do that.

OTOH, I already own two CPDs, and 100Hz is really quite nice (though 120Hz is certainly better).

I think I'd like a .22mm pitch better than 120Hz. The CPD isn't razor-sharp at 1600x1200@100.
Click to expand...

Yeah. The NEC is better than the CPD's, by a good margin. Haven't seen the GDM, though, although I have heard it is good. If you have 2 CPD's, I'd almost just keep them for now. (unless that's what you're planning on doing). The NEC is nice, but probably not worth the buy if your others are working fine :)

Also, cameras :p... You looking for something ultra-portable, or uber quality?
 
Originally posted by lopoetve
Also, cameras :p... You looking for something ultra-portable, or uber quality?
Click to expand...
Looking at what he's building, I have pretty good idea what the answer to this question is.
 
[EnderW]
> How much space does that take?

About a CD, compressed.

[lopoetve]
> Yeah. The NEC is better than the CPD's, by a good margin

You specifically mean the CPD-G520P? Lesser CPDs are... lesser.

> If you have 2 CPD's, I'd almost just keep them for now. (unless
> that's what you're planning on doing)

Yup, going to keep them.

> Also, cameras ... You looking for something ultra-portable, or uber
> quality?

Uber-quality (but I'm not a photographer, don't need SLR gunk).
 
[EnderW]

> Looking at what he's building, I have pretty good idea what the answer to this question is.

I don't think my wimpy little 256kbit connection will be able to download the resulting pictures any time soon. :D
 
This smells like brag to me.

Get a life buddy... you don't impress me whatsoever! You think a 10k$ machine will fancy our pickles?


Seriously, anyone can come here and post a "dream" shopping cart and say that is what they are going to purchase.

BTW, that system is inferior. You are blinding yourself thinking that your Intel "Preshot" will mow the competition. You'd better be looking into dual opterons... or heck... go for the gold and purchase a 4-way since you have your moms platinum discover card.

BTW, 7 years ago I spend $11,500 plus GST & PST on a PowerComputing Machintosh... today it is worth a whole mind boggeling $80... have fun watching your money drain away :p (I also had one of the first 486 DX4's out there... good ol $8,500 wasted for nothing).

Fall back kid... you got nothing but a big mouth and a lot of arrogance in your life.


PS: how much do you pay for sex?
 
Nice computer you're building there, I didn't see a UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply) listed, as I would think that's pretty important for a system like that. If it's already on that list forgive me there were alot of things on there. Also I remember watching Dateline or something a while back and there was a guy who was using a different type of algorithim to store mass amounts of data, and he was helping a hospital to store backups of heart ultrasound images or something like that to harddrives instead of thousands of VHS tapes. Was that related to the bwtzip thing you're working on? Sounds like cool stuff, good luck on it. And after reading all these posts, wow there are alot of haters/flamers on this board who have nothing better to do than talk trash and argue jeez.
 
Originally posted by jcc39
Nice computer you're building there, I didn't see a UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply) listed, as I would think that's pretty important for a system like that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, a UPS seems like a rather good idea...

And after reading all these posts, wow there are alot of haters/flamers on this board who have nothing better to do than talk trash and argue jeez.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, yes.
 
[SupaFly99]
> Seriously, anyone can come here and post a "dream" shopping cart
> and say that is what they are going to purchase.

Except I am.

[jcc39]
> Nice computer you're building there, I didn't see a UPS
> (Uninteruptable Power Supply) listed, as I would think that's
> pretty important for a system like that.

At least at Caltech I don't have power problems. Depending on where I go after I graduate, I may need a UPS.

> Was that related to the bwtzip thing you're working on?

Maybe; the BWT is pretty popular.

> Sounds like cool stuff, good luck on it. And after reading all
> these posts, wow there are alot of haters/flamers on this board who
> have nothing better to do than talk trash and argue jeez.

Yes. Yes there are.
 
Haha, reading up to page six was so fun.

Good show.

I got bored though, too repetative.
 
Ahhh... some people have too much money.

Build a cheaper and better system and send the rest of the money to africa.

:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Black Morty Rackham
Ooookay, that explains the need for space. :eek: :D


STL, btwzip looks interesting indeed.
Click to expand...
Oh snap. :eek: NOW I understand why he's doing such a huge-ass MS array.

Still doesn't answer the question of why he's not using dual Opterons rather than Xeons, though, much less single vs. dual. :confused:

Regardless, you're probably going to want 64/66 or PCI-X, if you're running both SCSI RAID and xATA RAID in the same box, otherwise you're going to get bottlenecked hard.

On x86-64, unless you want to replace this machine again once XP64 gets out (lol...do you see the irony?), I still think that Opteron would be a better idea. Especially since SSE2 performance is not only existent, but decent, and raw bandwidth (if you're working with giant files, it seems like it might be a good idea) just beats the pants off of everything out there.

As for SCSI—are you sure that any single user (physically) can simulate a multi-user environment? I remember an article somewhere (talking about command-queuing shenanigans with the Raptor 74GB, it was Lost Circuits or XBit I think, maybe StorageReview) saying that with the spread of HT and even dual machines, single users have become more like multiple users, but it didn't really give any numbers on the effect. (They couldn't figure out how to control TCQ, or how to tell that it was on in the first place, on the Raptor.)

I'll try to find those articles again sometime soon.
 
Originally posted by Stiletto One
Oh snap. :eek: NOW I understand why he's doing such a huge-ass MS array.

Still doesn't answer the question of why he's not using dual Opterons rather than Xeons, though, much less single vs. dual. :confused:

Regardless, you're probably going to want 64/66 or PCI-X, if you're running both SCSI RAID and xATA RAID in the same box, otherwise you're going to get bottlenecked hard.

On x86-64, unless you want to replace this machine again once XP64 gets out (lol...do you see the irony?), I still think that Opteron would be a better idea. Especially since SSE2 performance is not only existent, but decent, and raw bandwidth (if you're working with giant files, it seems like it might be a good idea) just beats the pants off of everything out there.

As for SCSI—are you sure that any single user (physically) can simulate a multi-user environment? I remember an article somewhere (talking about command-queuing shenanigans with the Raptor 74GB, it was Lost Circuits or XBit I think, maybe StorageReview) saying that with the spread of HT and even dual machines, single users have become more like multiple users, but it didn't really give any numbers on the effect. (They couldn't figure out how to control TCQ, or how to tell that it was on in the first place, on the Raptor.)

I'll try to find those articles again sometime soon.
Click to expand...

Definately. :D :D ;)
 
Take the INQ articles with the usual grain of salt...
Opteron SSE2 goodness
Badness?
I can't find the article about the guy who went through and unflagged some Intel-flagged SSE2 code so that it would recognize Opteron's SSE2 capabilities, but I clearly remember reading it. :(

OK, TWO things on command queuing. Lost Circuits on CQ in general, XBitLabs on the Raptor specifically. (The Raptor review is especially interesting, btw.)
 
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