Starcraft 2 Beta

kencheeto said:
i am having a terrible time in plat.. getting better but I have to be so focused every time I play to even stand a chance. makes me want to RAAAAAGE!
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Haha yeah you'll get used to it :p.

The multiplayer is pretty ready as far as I can tell, just minor tweaks here and there. Since its a blizzard game, it'll receive some good patches to come along with it.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Which is what they're doing... The release date has already been set to July 27th so they have until then.

Blizzard games constantly get rebalanced post release as well.
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Shutting the beta off for a month means that they won't have any more data during that time to re-balance the game. I was only referencing pre-release balancing, not post release. We're all aware of how well and often Blizzard patches their games. :)
 
Ive been practicing harrassing tactics lately. Usually im a defensive person but hey its a nice time to start learning to harrass whilst continuing to build your base in parallel. Damn hard.
 
tybert7 said:
Protoss players have swine written into their souls I think. One recent char/fire planet game, I was building my base as normal, but did not see the typical scout snooping around my terran base and attacking my builders forcing extra scv off the line to defend them.


So I check the left of my base, and see a warp gate and pylons... He sent his probe along the top of the land section in my base to avoid sight detection, went to the far end and got a beachhead into my base.

Instant loss.



I wonder, I know what my biggest issues are, at least some of them.


I never attack early, EVER. To counter this I have been trying to find the optimal way of base defense and unit composition to protect my base early on, with mixed results.



Here are ways my base has been compromised.


fast void rays with only a handful of marines to defend, with less range.
ultra fast lings before my supply barrier is erected
terran drops into my mineral line
reapers on certain maps getting into mineral line
early banshees with cloak on mineral line
canon rushes (usually beat these)
most recently, hidden protoss gateway
Boxed into base and beaten through attrition and lack of map control - done with siege tanks on the ledge of that one map that pelts your expansion
Early Mass mutas that almost one shot everything, and cut through marines like tissue when massed exclusively to a more mixed force from myself


Now part of these compromises can be dealt with from better base defensive positions, to deal with banshees I could place a turret between the mineral line and the gas, units can be placed in the mineral line to discourage reapers reign on the line.

supply depots can be erected earlier to prevent ultra fast lings, early thors can effectively halt early muta rushes, especially with 2 or three of them, they splatter clusters of mutas like lings against hellion flames, but this is not the biggest issue.


At best that stops the early steam roll.

The later game often comes down to resource collection denial acquisition and map control. And that is where I am weakest. The best times I have sent an early base off to some far off corner unmolested for long enough to keep me ahead.


Since I don't early harass, I want to becomes as good at humanly possible to stop the early harass, but I think my game needs more radical changes.
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It sounds like you KNOW what you're doing wrong, you just have to learn how to fix that. First off, disclaimer: I am not great at sc2...I feel like i such at it compared to the first. Regardless, I feel like when I lose, its always one stupid stupid decision - that I beat myself, rather than my opponent beating me. Maybe thats a touch arrogant, and probably rarely actually true, but that mentality is a bit of a must in the game.

To address your thoughts - yes - scout scout scout scout...I won a game last night with about 3 banshees because i kept an eye on my opponent to see he was attempting a marine / medic build...had no starport (no raven or viking). I was able to disassemble most of his base with him able to do nothing by dancing away from the scanner sweeps. His counter attack with all those units was taken care of with minimal loss by the banshees that built in my base since i hit him. Point is...I originally wanted to try a MMM or tank push - but scouting made me believe I had a better shot doing something else. Keep an eye on them at all times. Losing a unit here and there to do just that is often MORE than worthwhile.

Secondly - you mention issues with map control and the ability to harass. A lack of map control is often a result of a lack of harassment. Its not true at the top top levels - but many players can be scared into a bit of turtling if you constantly harass them. Even 2 or 3 marines dropped somewhere random in a base can keep them from attacking you. It lets you set the pace. The harassment may make them want to wait until theyre "SURE" they can beat you, because they start to feel that you always have something lurking to hit them with as soon as they take their main army out of base. Even if you dont feel like youre accomplishing much, it may be worth it to keep at it (see resource thoughts below). Sometimes a good player will even start to invest in cannons or S* colonies, or turrets and bunkers instead of an offense. Regardless, denying expansions is critical. That may be a supply depot or unit where they would build, burrowed units, whatever. Especially useful if you KNOW when they go for the expansion location, because you put something in the way they have to kill first. This falls into a bit of scouting in a way, too.

My rule of thumb for harassment is to get out what you put in. Ideally, a 50m/50v reaper should kill at least 2 workers or 1 pylon or whatever equates to 100 resources. As long as that is taking place, keep aggressively harassing and pumping into them. The second condition is where, you might not directly kill 100 resources with your 100 resource investment, but if you can disrupt mining enough that they pull away workers that result in a loss of 100, mission still accomplished. The least desirable but still effective method is if you make them build a 150m cannon with that harassment. You just took away 150 resources from their offense on a 100resource investment. Well placed harassment might cause all 3 of these. When you start thinking in terms of strictly "RESOURCES" like this, it might become clear that harassment is HUGE not just for the mental aspect, but the financing, too.

The ability to scout and harass often result in map control...which leads to wins. sitting on a defense and being slow to expand or plain old, out expanded, is a recipe to disaster. In many ways, the best defense is an offense. That statement is a rule of thumb, as a tricky backdoor strike can put a real hurting on your gameplan. However, proper scouting should let you know when this is a possibility, and let you adjust accordingly. You should never be taken for surprise, but rather by disappoint that they executed your worst case scenario you saw through scouting. Just to harp on the subject: Harassment often makes it hard for them to tech to nydus worms, drops, warp attacks, etc. If you keep a player struggling to stay in a match and protect their expansions or main, its harder for them to retaliate against you...keep constant pressure on!

Perhaps i said all the obvious stuff you know, but its worth mentioning anyway. Maybe theres a key idea or two that will help connect some dots or give you new perspective =\

glhf as always =)


CryingGod said:
Game still needs some balancing. Protoss need some help in the anti-air department.
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I would argue protoss has the best anti air, objectively speaking. Every race feels a bit weak AA compared to the original though. Protoss has fine AA though.
 
I'm new to starcraft, but my friends are pretty good at it. At first I asked a ton of questions, but I've learned that the answer to 90% of them is...SCOUT!
 
Crash250f said:
I'm new to starcraft, but my friends are pretty good at it. At first I asked a ton of questions, but I've learned that the answer to 90% of them is...SCOUT!
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Once you know what all the buildings are for / what they do - all you need to do is scout. If you do get taken off guard, some forums / googling will often find a good counter move that lets you figure out where you could have done better.



off topic: within 3 seconds of "Nuclear launch detected" my friend gave me a gg and left lastnight haha. It didnt even hit his base ...it wouldnt have been that devastating of a blow just yet. I wonder if he was detector-less though. Perhaps Ill try nuking something random on a map where he isnt even is for future fun. Still the most terrifying 1.5 seconds in the game of starcraft haha.
 
CryingGod said:
Game still needs some balancing. Protoss need some help in the anti-air department.
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What makes you say that? I've played maybe two games, which were FFA, where anyone got a big enough fleet that my stalkers were ineffective against it. Do you often have a problem with air? I'd like to know what problems you have with air, so I can avoid those problems if they ever come up for me :).
 
petertew said:
What makes you say that? I've played maybe two games, which were FFA, where anyone got a big enough fleet that my stalkers were ineffective against it. Do you often have a problem with air? I'd like to know what problems you have with air, so I can avoid those problems if they ever come up for me :).
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void rays or phoenix go a long way against the air. Using blink to get stalkers behind the air units may get you a few extra hits. phoenix micro to hit and run can be effective. void rays just tear things up with FF (focus fire) micro to keep them working as effectively as possible. psi storm is weakend, but still cant hurt.

if the fleet is that large that you just cant do anything against a player, id say you failed in keeping pressure on all game. In the event of FFA or 2v2v2v2 gameplay, its just kind of how it goes. If one player is left alone and can amass tier 2 and 3 units and go on a rampage...its just the luck of the draw. I wouldnt say 50 supplies of stalkers should beat 120 supplies of banshees and vikings or etc.

I mean...in sc1, a bunch of dragoons would still get run over by gwardos and mutas. It sucks, but thats how it is if you are outnumbered, out teched, and out powered. It took significant micro and spell casting to turn the tides of battle. I dont really SEE a problem in SC2 considering all that..it makes sense that a big fleet of capital or high tech air units stampede the ground units. If you have equal numbers of approximately equivalent tech, Id say it tends to shake out pretty even.

More importantly, in a "normal" game, with aggro on that player, they never get too big where any "overpowering" fleet can be built without it falling back on the other players fault.

Its just the FFA curse if you will. In the orig, I could wipe out 2/3 opponents, and then without a doubt, get stampeded by the 4th player with a bunch of carriers. Cant say I ever felt wronged by it...just annoyed haha.

As a whole, barring a FFA that gets out of hand though...I think the protoss have fine AA.
 
CryingGod said:
Game still needs some balancing. Protoss need some help in the anti-air department.
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Protoss has probably the best anti-air.

There are two types of air units you have to guard against: Harassment units and Strong air units. In terms of anti-harassment, phoenix have it pretty well covered considering both banshees and mutalisk are small units and phoenix can run circles around them. Stronger air units are a bit tougher for protoss (brood lords and battlecruisers), but it's not a huge deal since void rays are so strong and stalkers themselves are pretty good with blink.

The most important thing though is that the protoss tier 1.5 units can both attack air. Therefore, you don't really need to scout and respond to air, you already have pretty good anti-air. Zerg and Terran don't have that luxury.
 
thisperishedmin said:
void rays or phoenix go a long way against the air. Using blink to get stalkers behind the air units may get you a few extra hits. phoenix micro to hit and run can be effective...

As a whole, barring a FFA that gets out of hand though...I think the protoss have fine AA.
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I agree. I've never had a problem with an overpowered air fleet outside of FFA matches (although I have lost a match to a single Void Ray I didn't see in my base :( )
 
petertew said:
I agree. I've never had a problem with an overpowered air fleet outside of FFA matches (although I have lost a match to a single Void Ray I didn't see in my base :( )
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bwahaha...the kind of antics i depend on ....*evil grin*

sometimes its amazing what can go unnoticed in a main base for quite some time in mid-late match. I let a few marines wipe out most of my original "main" recently before realizing they were there...just a sneaky drop I guess? I'm trying to learn to keep a better eye on those matters, but its so hard to do everything at once...
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Protoss has probably the best anti-air.

There are two types of air units you have to guard against: Harassment units and Strong air units. In terms of anti-harassment, phoenix have it pretty well covered considering both banshees and mutalisk are small units and phoenix can run circles around them. Stronger air units are a bit tougher for protoss (brood lords and battlecruisers), but it's not a huge deal since void rays are so strong and stalkers themselves are pretty good with blink.

The most important thing though is that the protoss tier 1.5 units can both attack air. Therefore, you don't really need to scout and respond to air, you already have pretty good anti-air. Zerg and Terran don't have that luxury.
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Think Terran's AA ability would be a close second if not almost even. Their T1 can attack air, although relatively weak and cheap, and a Viking w/ Raven support is pretty neat.

I think Zerg have the toughest time. Hydras are great for anti-air, but they're a late T2 unit and NEED vespene. :(
 
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SPARTAN VI said:
Think Terran's AA ability would be a close second if not almost even. Their T1 can attack air, although relatively weak and cheap, and a Viking w/ support Ravens is pretty neat.

I think Zerg have the toughest time. Hydras are great for anti-air, are a late T2 unit and NEED vespene. :(
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Yea, everytime I rush some mutalisks into someone's base... if the terran doesn't have missile turrets already down, I just slaughter his marines and go to work. When the toss moves in a couple of stalkers I have to back off with the mutas. Once the toss gets phoenix, I just simply stop making mutas, no point anymore.

Vikings are pretty good all round since they deal extra to armored which is good against void rays, capital ships, brood lords, etc.

Right now as Zerg, if I feel some imminent air harassment coming my first reaction is to build more queens.
 
Terrans seem to have good anti air later into the game if they get a couple of Thors. Those things rape mutas from what I've seen and would probably do really well against any air. The range on their anti-air missiles is crazy.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Yea, everytime I rush some mutalisks into someone's base... if the terran doesn't have missile turrets already down, I just slaughter his marines and go to work. When the toss moves in a couple of stalkers I have to back off with the mutas. Once the toss gets phoenix, I just simply stop making mutas, no point anymore.

Vikings are pretty good all round since they deal extra to armored which is good against void rays, capital ships, brood lords, etc.

Right now as Zerg, if I feel some imminent air harassment coming my first reaction is to build more queens.
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I would like to see a Queen buff, something to make them a viable go-to for AA. Something as simple as lowering their build time would suffice. Mass queens are "no joke," but for some reason still very funny. :D
 
SPARTAN VI said:
I would like to see a Queen buff, something to make them a viable go-to for AA. Something as simple as lowering their build time would suffice. Mass queens are "no joke," but for some reason still very funny. :D
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I know what you really want.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNueEJzDdw

those siege bug abilities that eject plasma from planets into space that cut capitol ships in half. You want that on your zerg queens, admit it.
 
I've found I've been catching a lot of people by surprise lately.
Playing as zerg I get the quick spawning pool and start pumping out zerglings and a queen.
Build banelings nest and morph to lair, while building a nydus worm while having a overlord sitting on stand by with line of sight somewhere near the back of their base.
Morph a little over half the zerglings I have to banelings and load them into the worm while at this time teching to hydras.
Build the worm, usually behind his mineral line and unload all and send all the banelings at the command center/nexus/lair...
Seems to be working rather well, but it does work better it seems on terran and toss than it does zerg.
I've tried that build 6 or 7 times and it's only backfired on me once, took out his lair but he had a massive buildup of zerglings and just sent them all at me and I had nothing to counter with.
 
My friend and I have been doing double protoss and do a semi-fast expansion/tech to carries. Its amazing how powerful 30-40 carriers can do. We have yet to find a counter against so many. Only downside to our strat is early game, we are pretty much defenseless at start except for a few towers. I have a good feeling this wont work in the higher rankings. We are 4th in bronze, but we just started playing last night.
 
tybert7 said:
I know what you really want.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNueEJzDdw

those siege bug abilities that eject plasma from planets into space that cut capitol ships in half. You want that on your zerg queens, admit it.
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I want!

Starship Troopers was awesome, too bad the second one was a low budget, made for tv abomination. It's kinda like what Stargate Universe has done to Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis.

And back on topic: 30-40 carriers!? 17 carriers can win a game. I know because me and my brother play 2v2's, and one time, the enemy team made the mistake of ONLY attacking me, and while they did a good job at keeping me in check, they let my brother peacefully mass up his carrier fleet. He then proceeded to rampage on everything they owned with the escort of the few hydralisks I had. It was even funnier, because he had a capital ship to go with them, and one of our terran opponents had probably 30 marauders. I lost a few hydralisks in the attack, but then he just flew the mothership over my hydra's and the hilarity ensued.

One thing I still want to try is to get 3 or 4 hatcheries, pump out 60 or 70 queens, and then duke it out with someone as the creep tumors finally get to their base. It shouldn't take too long to get the creep wave all the way from your base to the enemy base (or even the whole entire map) when you have 5 or 6 creep tumors spreading.
 
Rooble91 said:
My friend and I have been doing double protoss and do a semi-fast expansion/tech to carries. Its amazing how powerful 30-40 carriers can do. We have yet to find a counter against so many. Only downside to our strat is early game, we are pretty much defenseless at start except for a few towers. I have a good feeling this wont work in the higher rankings. We are 4th in bronze, but we just started playing last night.
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I'd be curious to see how you do as you make your way to Gold or Platinum with that strategy. Most people play aggressively and I doubt you'd be able to make it up to a fleet beacon before you'd be overrun by t1 and t2 units. Glad it's working for you now though :).
 
It never gets old =D

I've come to appreciate the power of the terran banshee. They can be so awesome if you get them out cloaked early enough. I'm still missing Goliath for anti air though...I know the terran arent bad between marines medivac backed and vikings with some raven support and such...but damn, I just miss the holy air terror that was goliaths and valkyries.

I do wonder if the next 2 versions will add some more air fun like the old expansion did. While medics lurkers and dark templars were adding, the useful new units were air focused in broodwar. I'd almost expect one expansion to focus on some more air based warfare, and another expansion to focus on some more spell caster units or abilities. of course, thats not all they would do...but I could see that being the main focus throughout if they do add more (god I hope they add more).
 
petertew said:
I'd be curious to see how you do as you make your way to Gold or Platinum with that strategy. Most people play aggressively and I doubt you'd be able to make it up to a fleet beacon before you'd be overrun by t1 and t2 units. Glad it's working for you now though :).
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yeah...the more competetive the play gets, the more likely a player is to strive to deny you from tier 3 or higher tech in general and try to limit your access to resources to enable those types of units. I read somewhere else in the thread that "most pro games never get off the ground", and its very true. The toughest games for me are the ones that end before either of us get to tier 2 or 3. Funnily enough, they can be just as long as a tier 3 super unit battle sometimes...
 
Protoss + Terran seems to spell doom for Zerg + anything in 2v2. The moment siege tanks and collosus start rolling out, there is literally nothing the zerg player can do except attempt to tech to brood lords which is pretty stupid. In all 7 of my platinum 2v2 teams, I have to attempt to end the game very quickly against Toss + Terran (usually baneling bust), or the game is pretty much over. The instant that factory or robo bay gets put down, my options are extremely limited.

It just feels kind of retarded right now that the tier 2 unit for Zerg is Hydralisk... the unit that you tech to in order to make your opponent tech switch or counter... except the Hydralisk is so easily slaughtered at this point that it seems kind of pointless. How can you even compare such a pathetic unit to Siege Tanks, Collosus, Immortals, etc. ? Zerg really is missing that unit to bridge Hydralisks and hive tech... And don't say infestors. People are so used to them by now that if your infestors survive for more than 2 seconds then your opponents are doing something wrong. Also, caster for caster, the terran ghost and protoss high templar are direct hard counters to infestors. Zerg don't hard counter anything, and everything that zerg has is hard countered by something. Boggles the mind.
 
I'm STRUGGLING against this new Terran build that is 1 rax, 1 factory, and 1 starport. It seems like Terran has an answer for anything protoss throws at them these days. Tanks with a raven and marines is just down right SCARY. Point defense drones and that splash damage have been annihilating any ground based attacks, or they get banshees if i'm not getting a lot of stalkers. It's super frustrating since this build has become so popular. I'm curious if anyone comes up with a good way to beat it, because I've tried everything and I'm at a complete loss right now.
 
Decko87 said:
I'm STRUGGLING against this new Terran build that is 1 rax, 1 factory, and 1 starport. It seems like Terran has an answer for anything protoss throws at them these days. Tanks with a raven and marines is just down right SCARY. Point defense drones and that splash damage have been annihilating any ground based attacks, or they get banshees if i'm not getting a lot of stalkers. It's super frustrating since this build has become so popular. I'm curious if anyone comes up with a good way to beat it, because I've tried everything and I'm at a complete loss right now.
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Same thing with zerg! I just can't break the new TLO build on equal bases no matter what I try. The only conceivable unit I think may work is brood lords, but I would be harassed into submission way before then.
 
seiferoth10 said:
Same thing with zerg! I just can't break the new TLO build on equal bases no matter what I try. The only conceivable unit I think may work is brood lords, but I would be harassed into submission way before then.
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Oh man... everytime I hear something about brood lords I just get this really irritated feeling. I personally feel that everything in hive tech is just gimicky. They just aren't practical units. The amount of time and resources it takes to tech to brood lords is just astronomical. There's no other unit in the game that requires so many stages of tech.

As zerg the hardest things you're going to face are the tier 2+ units that aoe your mass units. As it stands, zerg has this gaping hole between lair and hive tech. Beyond hydralisks your only options are ultralisk and brood lords. Hydralisks easily become ineffective when your opponent counters them.

What to do? Tech brood lords? That's like telling a terran he has to build battlecruisers to counter the zerg's tier 2 hydralisk. How absurd.
 
Decko87 said:
I'm STRUGGLING against this new Terran build that is 1 rax, 1 factory, and 1 starport. It seems like Terran has an answer for anything protoss throws at them these days. Tanks with a raven and marines is just down right SCARY. Point defense drones and that splash damage have been annihilating any ground based attacks, or they get banshees if i'm not getting a lot of stalkers. It's super frustrating since this build has become so popular. I'm curious if anyone comes up with a good way to beat it, because I've tried everything and I'm at a complete loss right now.
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orly?


tells us EXACTLY what these terrans are doing that are so damaging


(eagerly takes down notes)
 
Decko87 said:
I'm STRUGGLING against this new Terran build that is 1 rax, 1 factory, and 1 starport. It seems like Terran has an answer for anything protoss throws at them these days. Tanks with a raven and marines is just down right SCARY. Point defense drones and that splash damage have been annihilating any ground based attacks, or they get banshees if i'm not getting a lot of stalkers. It's super frustrating since this build has become so popular. I'm curious if anyone comes up with a good way to beat it, because I've tried everything and I'm at a complete loss right now.
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sounds like you can just do an early push on him, you can more than likely get a bunch of units before he gets siege upgrade and just wtfpwn him.

I've used this build many times before it became popular? (I make my own builds), but I've always gone mech so... heh.

That early raven build is to counter act stupid dt openings.

In fact, iNkA just beat Moo PvT doing the 1rax/1fact/1port build. Quite easily might I add.
 
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I read a few threads on TL, and here's what Z are doing against this build:

1. One base baneling bust. Not the standard baneling bust, but like 10+ banelings to power through the barracks/factory/starport wall. (Not sure this one will work though, when you get enough banelings to bust a barracks wall T will surely have some siege mode tanks).
2. Nydus his base when he moves his tanks into a forward position.
3. Doom drops, once again when his tanks are away.
4. Doom drops ON his tanks so they kill themselves.
5. And of course, Broodlords.

Basically, abuse the fact that siege tanks can't move in siege mode. If you try to take on the siege tanks, your army will melt away. The problem is when T do this build they are constantly harassing, so they will see what you're planning to do (except doom drop), and can counter it accordingly.
 
doom drop on tanks should be impossible against this build though. The idea is that there will be marines and a few vikings to cover them as they move forward. No sane terran player will move out without alot of cover for a tank push. You could still drop and just figure on losing a few overlords in the mix...but thats definitely an "all in" maneuver if it fails. Youll be low on supplies and mostly out an army against a terrible terran force.

I would stick to base counters (nydus, drops) when they move out so that theyre forced to have a race to the bottom or to turn back. dropping banelings towarsd the late game could be pretty devastating if you get them to that wall from the back side...

Brood lords are certainly a viable answer, but I feel like it would be a bit "too late to the party" in most normal fights...maybe not so?

The problem in my mind comes back to zerg tech tiers feeling off from other races. that roach change to 2 supplies was just devastating too.
 
I know I have been having problems against T who go tank with good air cover. I played a game last night were the T had the choke covered with tanks so no ground force could get into the base and backed it up with mass viking. I guess I should have gone mass muta? A terran choke with tanks appears to be unassailable by zerg ground forces, especially if the tanks have some high ground. After the fact I thought that maybe a roach drop into his base would have worked against tank/viking.
 
Zerikin Loukbel said:
I know I have been having problems against T who go tank with good air cover. I played a game last night were the T had the choke covered with tanks so no ground force could get into the base and backed it up with mass viking. I guess I should have gone mass muta? A terran choke with tanks appears to be unassailable by zerg ground forces, especially if the tanks have some high ground. After the fact I thought that maybe a roach drop into his base would have worked against tank/viking.
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If the main is secured by tanks like that, from what I've seen the Zerg player can pretty much start making hatcheries at the other expansions and use hydras to attack the expansion.

You do have a good idea with the burrowing, and also infestors. Depending on where the tanks are they can burrow up to them and mind control, though I don't see that as much. Or they playgu the supporting forces and more forces get to the tanks.

Maybe banelings, burrowed along the high ground of some expos or at the base of ramps. Unless they have a raven or it's in turret range, they could do damage as they probably won't scan. And even if they don't pop up into the tanks, they might just slip into a mineral line or take out buildings. I also saw great micro in that game above of a zerg force coming in from the side and banelings coming in from the bottom, to hit MM. They had to fire on the banelings but died from hydras.

They are also buffing ultras, though they are late game. They are certainly distracting, the twenty hydras seem more mundane.

Maybe do the extractor on their gas to slow the factory and tanks, and try to keep them from the third and fourth vents in the natural?
 
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