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Starcraft 2 Beta

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refraxion said:
Patch 13 notes here!

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&postId=250240003971&sid=5000#16

I like the changes.

Zerg got buffed back I'd say and now I can see a lot of harassment with zerg overlords lol, force fields somewhat toned down for the better (only makes sense).
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Saw you posting on the beta forums. I assume you're refrexion.refraxion? :p

I really dislike the zerg changes. Specifically, the ultralisk. Blizzard still has no idea why people don't invest in ultralisks. I'll spell it out here:

1) Ultralisks require a lot of tech. Hive tech is rarely ever achieved in games.
2) Ultralisks require a lot of upgrades to make them viable. They NEED at least 1 or 2 carapace levels as well as the two upgrades in the ultralisk cavern which are both 150/150.

All of this makes the ultralisk a unit that you make a serious investment in. It's just too much to ask in almost all scenarios. Now blizzard is literally screaming "synergize ultras with infestors!" - that's really BAD. Now ultras need a 150 gas unit just to make up for their 25% HP nerf.

I actually went ultralisks for the first time today (I had 4 bases and over 1700 resource collection rate at the end of the game). I actually went hydra + infestors into a ultralisk + zerglings + some hydralisks. I just simply did NOT have the extra gas to invest into infestors to back up these ultras. It's just not a good idea in practice.

With the damage change to ultralisks, it seems that they're meant to counter every other armored unit in the game - stalker / marauder / roach balls, siege tanks, thors, collosus, and MAYBE immortals (that's arguable due to immortals literally filling the same role). I just don't see such a heavy investment in ultralisks to be viable as a counter to the much lower tech units (even thors and collosus are much lower tech / upgrade requirements).

There's this HUGE gap between hydralisk and ultralisk - it just seems absurd. Zerg really just needs that 1 unit to bridge it.

Situation report:

I agree with everything they say.

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...511&pageNo=1#0
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I'm sorry, but I do not. They say Ultralisks are now viable against mass marauder and mass roach (wtf?) in an 'end game scenario'... that's just dumb. Since when was mass marauder 'end game' ? Try 5 minutes into the game. Great, now I can tech to an ultralisk to counter a tier 1.5 unit. Thanks blizz. What if terran needed to tech battlecruisers to counter stalkers and roaches? Just stupid, plain flat out stupid.

Also, since when did 'infantry heavy' terran builds require any help??? Isn't MMM ridiculed to the ground??? I don't know what game blizzard is playing.
 
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Uhh, Terran were unbeatable as a zerg player in the last patch with mech builds. They certainly didn't need any help at all what so ever. I love how they buffed the marine builds that are popular now and incredibly difficult to beat. I agree with the void ray change, but Terran is certainly the strongest race now. Oh, and I'm totally cool with the force field nerf, I'm a little scared about that new contaminate ability. A lot of protoss strategy relies on having one tech 2/tech 3 building in their opening, I'm imaging that being easily shut down now.
 
I say, the patch just starting to roll out, lets see how it goes. Its still beta - people just need to learn to counter -- just like the void rays. Blizzard will do whats right for the game.

Also, read the situational report with regards to terran and protoss. I still agree with everything they say :p. Not like protoss got a huge hit, I still think they made zerg a bit more viable after the roach nerf, I can theory craft a ton in my head with the new overseer "ability". 25 energy for frenzy means you can spam a ton too.
 
Blizzard Patch Explanation:

"We've decided that since protoss of equal skill could only get void rays to beat a Terran of equal skill, we nerfed void rays, and buffed nothing else.

We decided that now that the void ray range is equal to the range of a marine and a bunker that marines and marauders still needed a buff to make Terrans totally invulnerable.

These new Zerg changes are whims that we thought would be cool because we're basically out of ideas of how to make Zerg interesting without adding a unit to the game.

We will do nothing to address how over powered splash damage is, and how completely over powered thors are against mutalisks. I know we're trying to remove hard counters in the game, but we decided to keep the most damaging one in the game. "

I realize this is harsh, but just addressing void rays and making these really strange changes to zerg doesn't help the fact that mech builds destroy zerg.


Also, I never get void rays against terran unless I have my back up against the wall, and aside from void rays having too high of a range I felt that the match was perfectly balanced. I really dislike the infantry buff. I really wish they would have done something about the templar archives and the dark shrine, but unfortunately that remains to be a thorn that won't be refined.
 
Decko87 said:
Also, I never get void rays against terran unless I have my back up against the wall, and aside from void rays having too high of a range I felt that the match was perfectly balanced. I really dislike the infantry buff. I really wish they would have done something about the templar archives and the dark shrine, but unfortunately that remains to be a thorn that won't be refined.
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The thing about void rays is that some players really abuse them to the ground - my roommate being one of them. He's plat 1v1 and plat with me in 2v2. He loves to just abuse the hell out of them against terran / zerg.

The reason so many people use air against terran is because of marauders. It forces terran to at least spread their unit balance and not just mass marauder the whole game.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
The thing about void rays is that some players really abuse them to the ground - my roommate being one of them. He's plat 1v1 and plat with me in 2v2. He loves to just abuse the hell out of them against terran / zerg.

The reason so many people use air against terran is because of marauders. It forces terran to at least spread their unit balance and not just mass marauder the whole game.
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Yeah I totally agree, a lot of people used them to stop kiting that was so simple and easy. I think void rays will still be good in those situations, it's just to put a halt on the early cheeses. But the buffs I really don't get what so ever.
 
Decko87 said:
Blizzard Patch Explanation:

"We've decided that since protoss of equal skill could only get void rays to beat a Terran of equal skill, we nerfed void rays, and buffed nothing else.

We decided that now that the void ray range is equal to the range of a marine and a bunker that marines and marauders still needed a buff to make Terrans totally invulnerable.

These new Zerg changes are whims that we thought would be cool because we're basically out of ideas of how to make Zerg interesting without adding a unit to the game.

We will do nothing to address how over powered splash damage is, and how completely over powered thors are against mutalisks. I know we're trying to remove hard counters in the game, but we decided to keep the most damaging one in the game. "

I realize this is harsh, but just addressing void rays and making these really strange changes to zerg doesn't help the fact that mech builds destroy zerg.


Also, I never get void rays against terran unless I have my back up against the wall, and aside from void rays having too high of a range I felt that the match was perfectly balanced. I really dislike the infantry buff. I really wish they would have done something about the templar archives and the dark shrine, but unfortunately that remains to be a thorn that won't be refined.
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This doesn't help much for terrans against protoss, its pretty much the same thing. Also, for this "mech build" if you are referring to the so called TLO 1/1/1 build, the new overseer ability demolishes it to the ground.

People just need to realize there are tons of unrealized strategies out there still and be more open minded with the changes. I used to be like you guys until I just started playing the game and figuring out crap to counter it myself. Used to complain about random stuff heh :p
 
refraxion said:
This doesn't help much for terrans against protoss, its pretty much the same thing. Also, for this "mech build" if you are referring to the so called TLO 1/1/1 build, the new overseer ability demolishes it to the ground.

People just need to realize there are tons of unrealized strategies out there still and be more open minded with the changes. I used to be like you guys until I just started playing the game and figuring out crap to counter it myself. Used to complain about random stuff heh :p
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Yeah I'm aware there are plenty of unused strategies, but if someone like Artosis can't figure out how to deal with Terran there might be a problem. I can counter plenty of builds, but sometimes you're fighting an uphill battle even with your best counter. I'm not really complaining, and it's fairly obvious through my play that I'm open minded about builds. I don't mind the Protoss changes, but infantry buffs are unnecessary. And making ultra to counter teir 1.5 units is totally retarded. There's no other way of stating it, and I really doubt that contamination will do anything against that terran build. They have so many marines you'd have to suicide your overseer. Considering how expensive they are, and the amount of resources that it takes to get an overseer, there's no way any decent Terran doing that build will lose to contaminate.
 
Decko87 said:
Yeah I'm aware there are plenty of unused strategies, but if someone like Artosis can't figure out how to deal with Terran there might be a problem. I can counter plenty of builds, but sometimes you're fighting an uphill battle even with your best counter. I'm not really complaining, and it's fairly obvious through my play that I'm open minded about builds. I don't mind the Protoss changes, but infantry buffs are unnecessary. And making ultra to counter teir 1.5 units is totally retarded. There's no other way of stating it, and I really doubt that contamination will do anything against that terran build. They have so many marines you'd have to suicide your overseer. Considering how expensive they are, and the amount of resources that it takes to get an overseer, there's no way any decent Terran doing that build will lose to contaminate.
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I know how you feel and I'm just saying wait it out and see what these changes actually bring to the table, I really think the zerg's new abilities will come into handy.

Fungal growth >>> MMM ball. Frenzy hydralisk with fungal growth = GG to MMM balls. and of course Siege tanks are good, they were good also in SC1, its just that people are starting to figure out some good mech builds that are viable.
 
I love and hate the Ultra changes. The frenzy has the potential to pair very nicely with Ultras, despite the heavy gas requirement for both units, but honestly that doesn't fix the biggest problem with Ultras: they can't get to their target. And now it'll be even harder to get to their target because of the health nerf. Sigh. Frenzy should increase movement speed by 25% also in order for it to be viable when paired with Ultras.

And by other problem with the patch are the lower cost on the terran infantry armor upgrades. I don't know if they think MMM is out of style now... but once everyone figured out mech is better, they're buffing infantry? Here's a hint: MMM was never bad.

I have no idea what they were thinking buffing Terran, they're easily the best race right now.
 
Decko87 said:
Uhh, Terran were unbeatable as a zerg player in the last patch with mech builds. They certainly didn't need any help at all what so ever. I love how they buffed the marine builds that are popular now and incredibly difficult to beat. I agree with the void ray change, but Terran is certainly the strongest race now. Oh, and I'm totally cool with the force field nerf, I'm a little scared about that new contaminate ability. A lot of protoss strategy relies on having one tech 2/tech 3 building in their opening, I'm imaging that being easily shut down now.
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I don't see marines or terran getting that much of a buff here. All they did was lower the cost of an upgrade slightly, no change to unit mechanics or power.
 
tybert7 said:
I don't see marines or terran getting that much of a buff here. All they did was lower the cost of an upgrade slightly, no change to unit mechanics or power.
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Yeah exactly, I share the same sentiments. I like Blizzards reasoning on it, but they need to fix TvT, it always ends up mass vikings or banshees.
 
Unbelievable how many people are crying over on the forums about races. People switching races and what not.. over something so small. People need to see the light! Just like void rays all over again, lawl. Each race is beatable, I still see many zergs/protoss at the top of each plat division save for a few.

Anyhow, I still like playing protoss.. blink stalker seems so easy haha.
 
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I still think zerg could really use a T2 siege unit of some sort. Once zerg hits lair it takes forever to get to any of the hive units and the broodlord is zerg's only siege unit.
 
Zerikin Loukbel said:
I still think zerg could really use a T2 siege unit of some sort. Once zerg hits lair it takes forever to get to any of the hive units and the broodlord is zerg's only siege unit.
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I think it might have to do with how fast zergs can amass units that they make them T3.. but I could be wrong.
 
Good thing I was wanting to try out Zerg with the reset that never happened. Time to stop playing Toss, more nerfs, what a joke. Oh well only 10 days left anyways....
 
Jutsu said:
Good thing I was wanting to try out Zerg with the reset that never happened. Time to stop playing Toss, more nerfs, what a joke. Oh well only 10 days left anyways....
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It's not too bad of a nerf.. void ray -- more reasonable now. Force fields you gotta admit got pretty out of hand.. any how, you'd be able to snipe out that massive unit that's trampling through your force fields anyhow haha.

I'd stick with the race you like to main -- I know I've stuck with terran when they wern't that great.

Zerg is gonna be pretty awesome I think.
 
hrrmm I am already envisioning a single base, mass speedling, fast lair, mass overseer to contaminate buildings and drop infested terrans along the mineral line. Kekeke Constant pressure with on front speedling, on the back with infested Terran and contaminate will stop all of your opponents production causing them to fall so far behind.
 
that overseer ability is a game changer....I agree its a shutdown for the 1/1/1 build, and devastating to alot of higher tech protoss builds. If nothing else, it forces players to build cannons or turrets etc just to protect their buildings (i never built EITHER of those as EITHER race), and honestly, just the fear of this gives zerg a head up in early game if you ask me. I really like that change.

The terran change is a bit funky, but I think everything else is wise and for the better. That ability for zerg alone just opened so many doors to new strategy and harassment.
 
refraxion said:
Its funny how many protoss players have cheesed me today. Every single one actually.
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Cheese you with which build? VR or something else?

I'm a Terran player and I welcome the changes. Well executed early VR harassment is the bane of Terran existence on maps like Metalopolis when you spawn next to each other.

I don't like using cheese to win but if I'm against Protoss on a smaller map it's 8 rax all the way in order to pause the race to VR. That gives me enough time to get a starport up and 2-3 vikings. 10 rax to reaper is OK but generally not worth it. However, this puts me behind economically.

With these changes I'll be able to instead pump extra marines and grab stim early. So can fight off the early VR harassment without killing my economy. I like that a lot.

Fighting Zerg is still my weak point though. :( I'm busy learning TLO's one of each build though to try to offset that. Wife has an in-service meeting all day tomorrow so LOTS of practice time for me!
 
No, I mean in base gateway cheeses or close proximity cheeses :p. Some tried massing void rays too.
 
refraxion said:
No, I mean in base gateway cheeses or close proximity cheeses :p. Some tried massing void rays too.
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Oh early proxy stuff. I may them pay for doing that. ;) Very quick MM ball with hellion support ftw!

Also like the new changes to Terran to offset the new Overseer ability. Could be used to disrupt the building of a Starport/Barracks/Factory for 30 seconds. Few extra marines and stim and overseer would die before being able to do anything.

One thing we will see though with Toss and Terran now is tightly built bases near the middle of the base in order to prevent the Overseer harassment.
 
Vermillion said:
Oh early proxy stuff. I may them pay for doing that. ;) Very quick MM ball with hellion support ftw!

Also like the new changes to Terran to offset the new Overseer ability. Could be used to disrupt the building of a Starport/Barracks/Factory for 30 seconds. Few extra marines and stim and overseer would die before being able to do anything.

One thing we will see though with Toss and Terran now is tightly built bases near the middle of the base in order to prevent the Overseer harassment.
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Yeah I think the new corruption ability with overseer is pretty good. Especially since a lot of terran players wall off with production buildings.. you can shut down their vital production lines.
 
refraxion said:
Yeah I think the new corruption ability with overseer is pretty good. Especially since a lot of terran players wall off with production buildings.. you can shut down their vital production lines.
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Yep and going all depot for wall-in is no go due to Banelings. Going to have to get fast Ebay for turrets or fast Ghost for EMP. Maybe we'll even start seeing people stop walling in.

This may actually be a good response to TLO's Terran build though. Delay getting Thor for 30 seconds or better has huge implications.

Once it's actually starting to be used we'll see what happens. Right now it's all theorycraft and 100gas on a unit that people will make a priority to take out makes it very expensive. Also seems like if somebody tries to go to Overseer quickly would make them a prime candidate for a fast reaper harass. ;)
 
Wow guys. 2 marines > 1 overseer. 1 viking > 1 overseer. 1 stalker > 1 overseer. There's no way you can just mass overseers and cause your opponent to fall far enough behind to makeup for the fact that you... well... spent so much retarded money on overseers.

Contaminate was already in the game before and no one cared about it.

There's an even better 'mineral line' harass skill from the raven and even at 50 energy no one uses it for that. I don't see how a 125 energy super gimped version will be of any use.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Wow guys. 2 marines > 1 overseer. 1 viking > 1 overseer. 1 stalker > 1 overseer. There's no way you can just mass overseers and cause your opponent to fall far enough behind to makeup for the fact that you... well... spent so much retarded money on overseers.

Contaminate was already in the game before and no one cared about it.

There's an even better 'mineral line' harass skill from the raven and even at 50 energy no one uses it for that. I don't see how a 125 energy super gimped version will be of any use.
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Thus why I said theorycraft. ;) We won't really know until the patch is released, dunno if it is out just yet. Will be interesting to see what happens.

And I actually do like using a Raven for that mineral harass. I do it once and awhile because it's not expected. Works great on a FE zerg. ;)
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Wow guys. 2 marines > 1 overseer. 1 viking > 1 overseer. 1 stalker > 1 overseer. There's no way you can just mass overseers and cause your opponent to fall far enough behind to makeup for the fact that you... well... spent so much retarded money on overseers.

Contaminate was already in the game before and no one cared about it.

There's an even better 'mineral line' harass skill from the raven and even at 50 energy no one uses it for that. I don't see how a 125 energy super gimped version will be of any use.
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Yes but you say that like we will have stationed marines everywhere. Whats the cast range for corruption? If you can do it outside of their base (Via wall-ins) I don't see why it would be bad?

Who ever talked about massing overseers? We aren't total scrubs, we're talking about viable strategies with it since you can get it without building something to get infestors/corruptors. Ravens are also much much much slower than overseers can be AFAIK.

You can stop a protoss from chrono boosting some stuff too if you can just do a quick in and out corruption.
 
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refraxion said:
Yes but you say that like we will have stationed marines everywhere. Whats the cast range for corruption? If you can do it outside of their base (Via wall-ins) I don't see why it would be bad?
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Vikings were already made to snipe overlords, I don't see why anyone wouldn't make a single viking to stop the overseers. At least a corruptor could actually defend itself against that, and people still didn't use it.

Who ever talked about massing overseers? We aren't total scrubs, we're talking about viable strategies with it since you can get it without building something to get infestors/corruptors. Ravens are also much much much slower than overseers can be AFAIK.
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hrrmm I am already envisioning a single base, mass speedling, fast lair, mass overseer to contaminate buildings and drop infested terrans along the mineral line.
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Honestly all these skills look "zomg" on paper but then you realize an overseer won't have mana for sh*t... and then you make 3.. 4...5 then you realize your army sucks ass because you just wasted hundreds of gas to do ... not much. I'd rather just make mutalisk.

The only real change is that 1 overseer I do make everygame will now do something else other than afk in a corner and make changelings every now and then. It's not going to change much IMO.
 
Again, yes you can go viking and "harass overlords" but at the end of the day, they arent going to help you much via ground army as well, though having a few is nice.

Terran doesn't have the scouting capabilities that a zerg or protoss has, you dont have to stick an ovvie around the base, you can send one in at some random unknown time to try to catch the terran off guard. If you don't use the ability, you can always make the terran waste money on turrets they otherwise could have used on an army.

Its all mind games with this ability SO EASILY accessible for zergs now. You don't need to make three four or five, you can just make one or two, in case of banshees/ dt's/ghosts anyways. Not like making an overseer is a waste of money.

Also overlord transport as well, cant you just transport some units over (ie hydras, to just shoot down the vikings rendering it useless) though this would require a competent zerg player to do so.

Like I wrote on the battle net forums, once the more "known" players start utilizing this strategy that I have already stated, it will be coined "their strat" which will be sad and everyone will be riding their %!*@ like no other, I know this strat will be abused one way or another (without massing Overseers).
 
I think this quote by Idra sums up my feelings:

good players speaking out isnt gonna change anything, theres a real problem with blizzards balance team, or their goals in balancing.
its clear they dont even watch high level games, much less listen to high level players or understand whats going on in those games. some of the justifications for the last few patches have been utterly ridiculous. twice theyve mentioned ultralisk's performance in zvz to justify changes. ultralisks have never, ever, been built in a competitive zvz.


i think the vast majority of their changes are based solely on statistics. would explain why theyre so slow to notice it when one race is overpowered early and the other late, as its an obvious problem but it doesnt really show up in win rates if it cancels out. also explains why their patches lag behind the actual balance issues. ya, top players figured out right away that terran was overpowered after patch 12, but it takes a while for that to trickle down through the ranks and affect the overall win rates.
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Oh its a well known fact that Ultras were not viable from the start, Blizzard has no clue what they are doing with the unit itself.

Though I do have different feelings on the matter as Zerg isn't my main race, I've been playing Terran since they were supposedly "crap" compared to the other races.

But one thing is for sure, Blizzard has a few years for it to pull the game together to actually compete as a true "e-sport" lol.

Edit - How come it took someone that was "known" to get the word out with blizzard patches? This was known by virtually everyone but now its being brought to attention cause someone known says it? that's kinda sad.
 
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refraxion said:
Oh its a well known fact that Ultras were not viable from the start, Blizzard has no clue what they are doing with the unit itself.

Though I do have different feelings on the matter as Zerg isn't my main race, I've been playing Terran since they were supposedly "crap" compared to the other races.

But one thing is for sure, Blizzard has a few years for it to pull the game together to actually compete as a true "e-sport" lol.

Edit - How come it took someone that was "known" to get the word out with blizzard patches? This was known by virtually everyone but now its being brought to attention cause someone known says it? that's kinda sad.
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While I'm a total scrub next to Idra I don't think he's wholly right.

I don't think it's so much "known" people but more along the lines of Blizzard uses statistics and do a wait and see what happens. If anybody honestly believes Blizzard don't watch what the pro-gamers are doing they are kidding themselves. This is beta and people are still learning. Every other day some new build comes out.

For instance right now is TLO's TvZ build order. Any day somebody will find a way to beat it. That's the beauty of an RTS game. Just because a pro-gamer says something is imba in beta doesn't make it so.

I do agree though that Blizzard doesn't quite know what to do with the Ultralisk but I also think that's because people just don't use them. Blizzard is trying all types of things to get people to use the Ultralisk more so that they can figure out a plan of action. However, that only makes the problem worse because you do get people screaming about this or that being imba or worthless now.
 
Yeah, I agree to a point as well.

Blizzard just needs to get their act together with these patches in general though, from the start of the beta to now, the content that they add or change in the beta has been minimal.. lots of things had to be changed but they are doing it quite slow.. I just think people are getting more and more fed up with the way they are doing it because they are too eager to get competitive when the game isn't a final product yet.
 
If they gave ultralisk the ability to move while burrowed like roach that would solve the getting into range problem. Would be a hilarious sight to behold.
 
Zerikin Loukbel said:
If they gave ultralisk the ability to move while burrowed like roach that would solve the getting into range problem. Would be a hilarious sight to behold.
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Maybe give ultralisk a charge ability of their own to get into range.. But have the cooldown far longer than the zealot charge. (Charge ability will push all of their units aside if they are within the charging ultralisks path). That or give ultralisk the frenzy attack to boot, costing them maybe 50 energy or something with a max pool of 100.
 
While I don't like the latest patch, I do think people are overreacting in regards the state of the game and Blizzard. In case anyone didn't remember, it took them over a year to properly balance StarCraft 1. It even needed Brood War; the original wasn't even remotely close.
 
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