Starcraft 2 Beta

jeremyshaw said:
SCV has the lowest health. (as of patch 12, it got nerfed way back, though).
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SCV's also don't regen health or a shield, and have to be healed. We're also the only idiots sitting there building a base and able to be disrupted.
 
jeremyshaw said:
SCV has the lowest health. (as of patch 12, it got nerfed way back, though).
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I'm fully aware of that, SCVs still have five more health than all of the other workers. Probes are 20/20 health, drones are 40 health, and SCVs are 45 health. All attacks and movement speed are the same, SCVs are still the toughest workers by default.
 
Decko87 said:
I'm fully aware of that, SCVs still have five more health than all of the other workers. Probes are 20/20 health, drones are 40 health, and SCVs are 45 health. All attacks and movement speed are the same, SCVs are still the toughest workers by default.
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Yup, and they have to be given that they do not regenerate health by themselves, and they are the most likely to be used in the battlefield.
 
refraxion said:
That's not true.. zerg is still viable.
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Sure, just not with roaches. I've been using the baneling + zergling rush with all my partners in every one of my platinum 2v2 teams and it's working pretty well.

I never liked roaches to begin with. I skip them whenever I can even before the nerf. I still feel bitter about them taking the spot of the almighty hydralisk ! :mad:
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Sure, just not with roaches. I've been using the baneling + zergling rush with all my partners in every one of my platinum 2v2 teams and it's working pretty well.

I never liked roaches to begin with. I skip them whenever I can even before the nerf. I still feel bitter about them taking the spot of the almighty hydralisk ! :mad:
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I would disagree, roaches are still very useful as pop cap isn't much of an issue when I play. Of course you have to be more aggressive with food macro, but I still use roaches to some extent in almost every game.
 
kencheeto said:
I would disagree, roaches are still very useful as pop cap isn't much of an issue when I play. Of course you have to be more aggressive with food macro, but I still use roaches to some extent in almost every game.
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Well pop cap aside, each roach effectively costs 12.5 more minerals since you need an overlord for every 4th roach as opposed to an overlord for every 8th. But this also means you need to spend more larva on overlords which I think is a bigger deal.

I never liked roaches anyway. So whatever. I hope they swap the roach and hydralisk... nerfing / buffing as needed to fit their tech spots. But they probably won't do that :(
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Well pop cap aside, each roach effectively costs 12.5 more minerals since you need an overlord for every 4th roach as opposed to an overlord for every 8th. But this also means you need to spend more larva on overlords which I think is a bigger deal.

I never liked roaches anyway. So whatever. I hope they swap the roach and hydralisk... nerfing / buffing as needed to fit their tech spots. But they probably won't do that :(
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Just move on and change your name to Intel_Infestor
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
Well pop cap aside, each roach effectively costs 12.5 more minerals since you need an overlord for every 4th roach as opposed to an overlord for every 8th. But this also means you need to spend more larva on overlords which I think is a bigger deal.

I never liked roaches anyway. So whatever. I hope they swap the roach and hydralisk... nerfing / buffing as needed to fit their tech spots. But they probably won't do that :(
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So that's roughly a 15% nerf in cost? I don't see that being too bad, Psi storm got a 40% radius nerf, the build time for immortals went up 30%, and colossi damage has repeatedly gone down. I know that these aren't tier 1 units, but a 15% nerf in cost isn't that big compared to a lot of other nerfs that have occurred. Roaches are still very useful, but I will agree that one or two of the other tier 1 armored units has a bit too much power for the cost now.
 
I'm probably not playing the margins close enough to notice the 15% cost nerf as really changing my gameplay. One of my big issues is that I freeform every game, I never have any set BO and play to what I scout.
 
kencheeto said:
I'm probably not playing the margins close enough to notice the 15% cost nerf as really changing my gameplay. One of my big issues is that I freeform every game, I never have any set BO and play to what I scout.
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Yep this is exactly what I do as well, free form for the most part.

With mech buff, terran is pretty good (they were not bad before). I still think It's a tie between Protoss and maybe T or Z for 2nd and third. Blizzard numbers don't lie I guess, I wonder when they are gonna do the stats again.

Sentries need a force field nerf of some sort, they can take their 8 damage back. Or make it an upgrade like the marauder concussive shot.

Zerg ultralisk needs some sort of buff.

Terran I think right now has pretty good units in terms of balance, splash damage is working as intended now I believe.. the reactor nerf and marine build time nerf doesn't hinder terrans too badly either and I think it was much needed or terrans would be pretty OP like back then.

SCV nerf hurt terrans a bit but was much needed as well, 50 mineral meat shields with 60hp was pretty sweet..
 
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Hmn i can play but only on medium now =\

Anything higher and it craps out.
 
I think the roach nerf was an attempt to make more players move on to hydras. Not that hydras werent used before but it seemed that so many zergs went lings to roach for ground and then teched to mutas to cover air. It did hurt my inital build because i'd throw out 6 or so lings before getting some roaches out for early game defense. Because of the larva usage I've found myself hitting that wall early on until I get my queen out. I've shifted to get my queen out before I start the roach den now. I think i'll just shift to hydras now.
 
bigbadgreen said:
I think the roach nerf was an attempt to make more players move on to hydras. Not that hydras werent used before but it seemed that so many zergs went lings to roach for ground and then teched to mutas to cover air. It did hurt my inital build because i'd throw out 6 or so lings before getting some roaches out for early game defense. Because of the larva usage I've found myself hitting that wall early on until I get my queen out. I've shifted to get my queen out before I start the roach den now. I think i'll just shift to hydras now.
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The thing about hydras is that they need roach to tank for them. Hydras by themselves are really not that good at all unless you get them for anti-air. There's very easy counters from both terran and protoss for mass hydra. Roaches in the front is what made hydras strong. I don't think hydras were overlooked before either. This may be another stupid attempt to get people to tech to ultralisk. I've always gotten the queen before the roach den... oh wait, I never got a roach den. Either way, you should always get the queen right after the spawning pool.

By the way... there was a blue post explaining the removal of the lurker. Blizzard felt that the ultralisk's aoe attack was a suitable replacement for the lurker. Ugh.

On another note... I never realized gold league was so different from platinum. All of my 2v2 teams and my1v1 are platinum except for 1 team with a noob friend of mine which is gold. We decided to play last night with him as zerg for the first time (he wanted to practice zerg) and me as random. His initial build order was an 8 pool... no he wasn't rushing, he was just bad. We managed to win all of our games and moved up to the top 20 in the division... No, it wasn't because he was a quick learner and I played brilliantly. In fact, I played terribly and he was so god awful. Our opponents were worse... I fear that at this rate we'll make platinum and he'll still be sitting on 200 energy queens. *facepalm*
 
TheResidentEvil said:
i think dark templars need a buff. They are more of a late game unit and they are not good in the late game
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They actually don't need a buff at all. They don't have to be late game unit, lots of high end plat games have been forcing your opponent to lose to DT's, its a DT fast build.
 
I'll give it a go later tonight when I get the chance to, seems fun. I definitely love multi tasking!
 
Yeah same, thanks for the find.

Edit: Tried it on easy a few times, needs to be balanced out more. I can't keep from losing all my probes. even if I just micro my probe around he takes hit's and eventually dies from the ling's attacks. It's supposed to be slower than your probe in this but I believe it's not, it always catches up to be right behind you and eventually gets in 1 attack.
 
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refraxion said:
They actually don't need a buff at all. They don't have to be late game unit, lots of high end plat games have been forcing your opponent to lose to DT's, its a DT fast build.
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Yup. DT fast tech is a good build unless the person is Terran and going Ghost Mech with a Raven popping out fast. DT proxy tech players die very quick to a well executed Ghost Mech with Raven opening. :D
 
The ladders and leagues don't seem quite right. My friend and I were pretty good at SC1 (nothing special) but in SC2 in the Platinum division for 2v2 we're 8-0, and we've won convincingly each time. It feels like there are people in the Plat leagues that don't belong there.
 
petertew said:
The ladders and leagues don't seem quite right. My friend and I were pretty good at SC1 (nothing special) but in SC2 in the Platinum division for 2v2 we're 8-0, and we've won convincingly each time. It feels like there are people in the Plat leagues that don't belong there.
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Ladders are all screwed up because of cheese openings like a 6 rax or the now nerfed cannon rush. So you get a ton of crappy people that go all-in right off the bat during their placement matches and since they get other newbies they steamroll them. I expect that to go away once the game is actually released and people start to realize that 6 rax doesn't mean auto-win. All those 6 rax people will never get any better.

I didn't know about 6 rax when I did my placement matches...thus why I'm copper league (at least I can say i'm number one in my division :) ). I'm glad I never knew about it though. I never played BW online really so this is all new to me. While I understand the concept of build orders and what counters what there is a difference between understanding it, being able to apply it correctly, and adapting to your competition constantly. I still forget things I shouldn't be forgetting and that puts me at a disadvantage. Thus why I just keep clicking "Find Match" so that I can continue to practice and actually get better without resorting to something like 6 rax.
 
Vermillion said:
Ladders are all screwed up because of cheese openings like a 6 rax or the now nerfed cannon rush. So you get a ton of crappy people that go all-in right off the bat during their placement matches and since they get other newbies they steamroll them. I expect that to go away once the game is actually released and people start to realize that 6 rax doesn't mean auto-win. All those 6 rax people will never get any better.

I didn't know about 6 rax when I did my placement matches...thus why I'm copper league (at least I can say i'm number one in my division :) ). I'm glad I never knew about it though. I never played BW online really so this is all new to me. While I understand the concept of build orders and what counters what there is a difference between understanding it, being able to apply it correctly, and adapting to your competition constantly. I still forget things I shouldn't be forgetting and that puts me at a disadvantage. Thus why I just keep clicking "Find Match" so that I can continue to practice and actually get better without resorting to something like 6 rax.
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I find a lot of opponents we've been playing against don't put enough pressure on us early, and thus allow us to control the map. I'm also seeing some pretty noobish stuff where people completely forget to guard their mineral piles and my buddy (always terran) rolls up with 1 or maybe 2 banshees and lays waste to his harvesters. Also, the general lack of micro is surprising. Units this time around in some ways feel more micro intensive than in SC1, and yet I still see people fail to blink their stalkers when they have that ability upgraded.

All that said, I'm sure I've got a fat 5 loss streak coming my way soon.
 
You've only played 8 games so far (really only 3 in platinum if your record is 8-0). The way the placing works right now there's going to be a lot of people who happen to go 5-0 and don't really 'belong' in platinum. I suspect at release they're going to increase the number of placement matches. Maybe add a penalty for sitting on a 5-0 record in platinum and never playing again.
 
petertew said:
I find a lot of opponents we've been playing against don't put enough pressure on us early, and thus allow us to control the map. I'm also seeing some pretty noobish stuff where people completely forget to guard their mineral piles and my buddy (always terran) rolls up with 1 or maybe 2 banshees and lays waste to his harvesters. Also, the general lack of micro is surprising. Units this time around in some ways feel more micro intensive than in SC1, and yet I still see people fail to blink their stalkers when they have that ability upgraded.

All that said, I'm sure I've got a fat 5 loss streak coming my way soon.
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I'm on a 4 game losing streak right now myself. :eek: All stupid mistakes on my part. For example this morning I was against a Protoss on LT. He was right next to me so I decided to go 8 rax fast reaper. Worked like a champ and I thrashed his workers pretty good but I was overzealous and figured I would pump a few marauders instead of marines and walk over him quickly.

That was phenomenally stupid. Void Ray comes in and I've got zip to fight it. My few marauders killed off a ton of his base but I just didn't have a enough to win before VR number 2 popped out. If I had pumped a few marines first I could have taken out the original VR, quickly gotten a pair of vikings and then stormed him and won.
 
Man I am stuck on copper LOL. I think I'm more suited to theory craft then actually playing the game. At least Im at the top on my division, ( which isn't anything to brag about) I keep losing to Terran turtle 1 base Marauder/ Marine push. or Marine/Tank .

I feel like a dirty whore to resorting to Void Ray or any form of air

These 2v2 really screwed me up on the way I think lol


I've been using Drukenbobby's stalker build. It just doesnt work well against T.
 
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Protoss players have swine written into their souls I think. One recent char/fire planet game, I was building my base as normal, but did not see the typical scout snooping around my terran base and attacking my builders forcing extra scv off the line to defend them.


So I check the left of my base, and see a warp gate and pylons... He sent his probe along the top of the land section in my base to avoid sight detection, went to the far end and got a beachhead into my base.

Instant loss.



I wonder, I know what my biggest issues are, at least some of them.


I never attack early, EVER. To counter this I have been trying to find the optimal way of base defense and unit composition to protect my base early on, with mixed results.



Here are ways my base has been compromised.


fast void rays with only a handful of marines to defend, with less range.
ultra fast lings before my supply barrier is erected
terran drops into my mineral line
reapers on certain maps getting into mineral line
early banshees with cloak on mineral line
canon rushes (usually beat these)
most recently, hidden protoss gateway
Boxed into base and beaten through attrition and lack of map control - done with siege tanks on the ledge of that one map that pelts your expansion
Early Mass mutas that almost one shot everything, and cut through marines like tissue when massed exclusively to a more mixed force from myself


Now part of these compromises can be dealt with from better base defensive positions, to deal with banshees I could place a turret between the mineral line and the gas, units can be placed in the mineral line to discourage reapers reign on the line.

supply depots can be erected earlier to prevent ultra fast lings, early thors can effectively halt early muta rushes, especially with 2 or three of them, they splatter clusters of mutas like lings against hellion flames, but this is not the biggest issue.


At best that stops the early steam roll.

The later game often comes down to resource collection denial acquisition and map control. And that is where I am weakest. The best times I have sent an early base off to some far off corner unmolested for long enough to keep me ahead.


Since I don't early harass, I want to becomes as good at humanly possible to stop the early harass, but I think my game needs more radical changes.
 
I play protoss and I eat pork, I am also not a cannibal.

I'm glad phase 1 is ending, I'm looking forward to a better build of this game. I'm starting to get bored with the maps and mechanics.
 
tybert7 said:
Protoss players have swine written into their souls I think. One recent char/fire planet game, I was building my base as normal, but did not see the typical scout snooping around my terran base and attacking my builders forcing extra scv off the line to defend them.

So I check the left of my base, and see a warp gate and pylons... He sent his probe along the top of the land section in my base to avoid sight detection, went to the far end and got a beachhead into my base.

Instant loss.

I wonder, I know what my biggest issues are, at least some of them.

I never attack early, EVER. To counter this I have been trying to find the optimal way of base defense and unit composition to protect my base early on, with mixed results.

Here are ways my base has been compromised.

fast void rays with only a handful of marines to defend, with less range.
ultra fast lings before my supply barrier is erected
terran drops into my mineral line
reapers on certain maps getting into mineral line
early banshees with cloak on mineral line
canon rushes (usually beat these)
most recently, hidden protoss gateway
Boxed into base and beaten through attrition and lack of map control - done with siege tanks on the ledge of that one map that pelts your expansion
Early Mass mutas that almost one shot everything, and cut through marines like tissue when massed exclusively to a more mixed force from myself

Now part of these compromises can be dealt with from better base defensive positions, to deal with banshees I could place a turret between the mineral line and the gas, units can be placed in the mineral line to discourage reapers reign on the line.

supply depots can be erected earlier to prevent ultra fast lings, early thors can effectively halt early muta rushes, especially with 2 or three of them, they splatter clusters of mutas like lings against hellion flames, but this is not the biggest issue.

At best that stops the early steam roll.

The later game often comes down to resource collection denial acquisition and map control. And that is where I am weakest. The best times I have sent an early base off to some far off corner unmolested for long enough to keep me ahead.

Since I don't early harass, I want to becomes as good at humanly possible to stop the early harass, but I think my game needs more radical changes.
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The following is a pretty basic and standard Terran opening:

10 depot
11 rax
11 ref
11 OC
12 depot
13 fact
13-15ish port

make sure you keep SCVs building, pump a few marines/marauders, get a siege tank or two and some vikings. If you do it right you should be fortified enough to survive early pushes allowing you to tech, expand, and push back.

Put a few marines around your mineral line and put depots at the edges of the map so that you can spot incoming drops. Get an ebay and drop a few turrets around your mineral line as well.

Just be careful on maps like Scrap Station where the entrance is big. You need two/three depots, the rax and fact to block it off. Can use rax and 4/5 depots but then you're open to Bling rush.
 
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Decko87 said:
I play protoss and I eat pork, I am also not a cannibal.

I'm glad phase 1 is ending, I'm looking forward to a better build of this game. I'm starting to get bored with the maps and mechanics.
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Absolutely agree, I don't find myself playing as much anymore.. I hope they refine the game even more when it comes back up. Can't wait for final release!
 
tybert7 said:
Protoss players have swine written into their souls I think. One recent char/fire planet game, I was building my base as normal, but did not see the typical scout snooping around my terran base and attacking my builders forcing extra scv off the line to defend them.


So I check the left of my base, and see a warp gate and pylons... He sent his probe along the top of the land section in my base to avoid sight detection, went to the far end and got a beachhead into my base.

Instant loss.



I wonder, I know what my biggest issues are, at least some of them.


I never attack early, EVER. To counter this I have been trying to find the optimal way of base defense and unit composition to protect my base early on, with mixed results.



Here are ways my base has been compromised.


fast void rays with only a handful of marines to defend, with less range.
ultra fast lings before my supply barrier is erected
terran drops into my mineral line
reapers on certain maps getting into mineral line
early banshees with cloak on mineral line
canon rushes (usually beat these)
most recently, hidden protoss gateway
Boxed into base and beaten through attrition and lack of map control - done with siege tanks on the ledge of that one map that pelts your expansion
Early Mass mutas that almost one shot everything, and cut through marines like tissue when massed exclusively to a more mixed force from myself


Now part of these compromises can be dealt with from better base defensive positions, to deal with banshees I could place a turret between the mineral line and the gas, units can be placed in the mineral line to discourage reapers reign on the line.

supply depots can be erected earlier to prevent ultra fast lings, early thors can effectively halt early muta rushes, especially with 2 or three of them, they splatter clusters of mutas like lings against hellion flames, but this is not the biggest issue.


At best that stops the early steam roll.

The later game often comes down to resource collection denial acquisition and map control. And that is where I am weakest. The best times I have sent an early base off to some far off corner unmolested for long enough to keep me ahead.


Since I don't early harass, I want to becomes as good at humanly possible to stop the early harass, but I think my game needs more radical changes.
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Play to win and realize that harassment is there to deny minerals. A lone zealot in the mineral line, even if it doesn't kill a single worker, can do huge damage to an economy.
Also realize that opening with defensive play and turtling with static defense will seriously compromise your mid game economy and unit composition, as you have taken funds that would be going towards workers and army units and put them into turrets, etc. Your first priority should be pumping out workers and tier 1 units, followed by static defense when necessary.

My advice is to scout with a worker and see what tech they are going for. Scout again when tier 2 units would presumably be going up. Are they going tier 2 tech or making a crapload or tier 1 production buildings? This will help tell you what to do. You should be able to see if they are teching hard to void rays or banshees or whatever. If they are, push out on them! If they rush a tier 2 build then they have seriously compromised their tier 1 army, possibly their economy if they sacrificed workers for their build, and will be vulnerable to attack.

Also, read this: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
 
I really don't see this game being ready for release as far as multiplayer goes, I still feel like there needs to be a decent bit of balancing. Considering how vast the splash damage, thor resizing, and roach nerf was I really feel the game should be monitored a little longer.
 
i am having a terrible time in plat.. getting better but I have to be so focused every time I play to even stand a chance. makes me want to RAAAAAGE!
 
Decko87 said:
I really don't see this game being ready for release as far as multiplayer goes, I still feel like there needs to be a decent bit of balancing. Considering how vast the splash damage, thor resizing, and roach nerf was I really feel the game should be monitored a little longer.
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Which is what they're doing... The release date has already been set to July 27th so they have until then.

Blizzard games constantly get rebalanced post release as well.
 
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