Origin PC CEO: Steam Machines "Pretty Much Dead"

heatlesssun said:
Well they did have to go back and redo the controller. And how long ago was the Steambox announced? Going on two years?
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Yeah, and the controller was innovative before the change. After it was just pointless. Use an XBOX controller.

Fact is that the only real tangible anything about SteamOS Steam Machines etc is making OPENGL run as good as DX11 and become a universally welcome standard for PC games.

Not much incentive for PC game publishers to cut their console market by giving Valve their time and effort.

They should have fixed the controller and shipped a StreamCast like device to make any gaming PC stream to any HDTV on your network (without lag). Then they could forego the Linux waste of time and have a marketable product. I would have bought that and thrown my consoles in the garbage. Not really but you know what I mean.
 
PC gaming will always be relegated to being the red-headed bastard step-child of gaming platforms, with crappy third-rate after-the-fact ports with idiotic graphics and 30fps locks.

It won't ever change unless and until some big company comes along and tries to make living room and PC gaming the same thing, so that developers are targeting essentially a single platform.

Maybe Valve isn't that company, but I don't see anyone else out there stepping up. The irony is that so many in the "master race" are too blind to see the situation for what it is, or they just have no problem getting the sloppy seconds.
 
crusty_juggler said:
Are you seriously comparing desktop Linux to Android?
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Have you even used Steam OS? I suggest you go try it before you put your foot in your mouth more than you already have. It is literally as easy as installing an app on Android. You find the game/software you want, click install, wait for it to download and ta da. Time to play your game.

How is that any different than installing an app on Android? ;)
 
Skillz said:
Have you even used Steam OS? I suggest you go try it before you put your foot in your mouth more than you already have. It is literally as easy as installing an app on Android. You find the game/software you want, click install, wait for it to download and ta da. Time to play your game.

How is that any different than installing an app on Android? ;)
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I'd imagine there is only one hangup. People who are used to consoles, are going to have to go through the video settings to choose a resolution, AA etc. that works on their hardware, right?

Or have they automated this somehow?

I imagined SteamOS to essentially just be a debian based installation with pre-installed graphics drivers that loads Steams big picture mode as an x session.

If that is the case, then just like with Steam for Linux, you'd still ahve to change the graphics and control settings, right?

So, A LITTLE more complex than just starting it up on a console. Unless - that is - they ahve automated that somehow.
 
It has been a while since I last installed Steam OS; but I will go ahead and install it to a flash drive real quick and report back. IIRC, it detected everything automatically or at least prompted you to "select" your resolution. I hadn't used it in over a year so I can't recall.
 
Skillz said:
It has been a while since I last installed Steam OS; but I will go ahead and install it to a flash drive real quick and report back. IIRC, it detected everything automatically or at least prompted you to "select" your resolution. I hadn't used it in over a year so I can't recall.
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I think what he's talking about are in game settings.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think what he's talking about are in game settings.
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Well I know Windows/Steam can auto detect the native resolution for my games so I can't imagine why they can't replicate that with Linux/Steam. I will install a game as well and see how it goes. The download is taking FOREVER to complete though. Only going at like 900 - 1100 KB/sec. Ugh.

Also IIRC, back in the early days of HD you had to manually tell your console to output to SD or HD (720P) so...
 
Well crap. I thought I had a spare SATA HDD laying around somewhere I could install this on. Just got it extracted to my flash drive but I can't seem to find the HDD now. :(
 
jwcalla said:
That would be pretty obscene for the living room. Better off with a Lian Li TU100.
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My looks similar to that case and nobody notices it. Anyone knew to my house will notice that I have Windows on my 73" DLP TV. And when I point out the computer they're amazed of how bad ass it is.

A computer doesn't make your living room ugly unless the computer is ugly.
 
TheGardenTool said:
It's ok Darth, I forgive you. Much loves. Hope your stuff looked great at CES.
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Thanks

here is my biggie for CES (NOT A LIVING ROOM PC LOL)

pR6p9T.jpg
 
Ashbringer said:
My looks similar to that case and nobody notices it. Anyone knew to my house will notice that I have Windows on my 73" DLP TV. And when I point out the computer they're amazed of how bad ass it is.

A computer doesn't make your living room ugly unless the computer is ugly.
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pics? What specs? What software do you use for playback?
 
Skillz said:
You find the game/software you want, click install, wait for it to download and ta da. Time to play your game.

How is that any different than installing an app on Android? ;)
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Cool. Let me know when you can do that with any game beyond the latest pixel art 2D Indie game or a DX9 Valve game running on a 10 year old engine.

Linux gaming is completely inaccessible for a console gamer. It's a pain in the ass for even experienced PC gamers. You know it and I know it.

The fact that you can play Papers Please and Half Life 2 with minimal problems doesn't change that. Linux gaming is totally out of the question for gamers who want to play the latest games (ie, 99% of gamers). The ability to simply install and run World of Goo means nothing.

I eagerly await your response in which you point out the shining examples of AAA Linux gaming in the abysmal ports of Borderlands 2 and Metro LL. In which the former doesn't even support AMD or Intel graphics, is riddled with bugs and performance issues - and the latter has a single graphics slider as far as video options go. Or maybe you want to bring up The Witcher 2? How about XCOM, which can run on an 8600GT under Windows but requires a 600 series under Linux and has major stability problems?

Enjoy your trendy Indie games and ancient Valve titles.
 
crusty_juggler said:
The fact that you can play Papers Please and Half Life 2 with minimal problems doesn't change that. Linux gaming is totally out of the question for gamers who want to play the latest games (ie, 99% of gamers). The ability to simply install and run World of Goo means nothing.
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This * 1,000,000. Drivers, controllers, ease of use, whatever issue you want to consider, combined they are all nothing without the games. 1632 games that we played 10 years ago aren't nearly worth one new hot title on an Xbox, PS4 or Windows PC.
 
crusty_juggler said:
Cool. Let me know when you can do that with any game beyond the latest pixel art 2D Indie game or a DX9 Valve game running on a 10 year old engine.

Linux gaming is completely inaccessible for a console gamer. It's a pain in the ass for even experienced PC gamers. You know it and I know it.

The fact that you can play Papers Please and Half Life 2 with minimal problems doesn't change that. Linux gaming is totally out of the question for gamers who want to play the latest games (ie, 99% of gamers). The ability to simply install and run World of Goo means nothing.

I eagerly await your response in which you point out the shining examples of AAA Linux gaming in the abysmal ports of Borderlands 2 and Metro LL. In which the former doesn't even support AMD or Intel graphics, is riddled with bugs and performance issues - and the latter has a single graphics slider as far as video options go. Or maybe you want to bring up The Witcher 2? How about XCOM, which can run on an 8600GT under Windows but requires a 600 series under Linux and has major stability problems?

Enjoy your trendy Indie games and ancient Valve titles.
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Because those console ports to PC are doing so wonderful.

PC gaming is a complete trainwreck, "you know it and I know it". Pretending that Linux is the only PC platform with issues is ridiculous. If devs target Linux from the beginning (like with UE4 or whatever), they'll be fine. You're talking about old games that were made for console and ported to Windows and then ported to OS X and then finally over to Linux. Gee, what could go wrong?
 
heatlesssun said:
This * 1,000,000. Drivers, controllers, ease of use, whatever issue you want to consider, combined they are all nothing without the games. 1632 games that we played 10 years ago aren't nearly worth one new hot title on an Xbox, PS4 or Windows PC.
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You keep repeating this over and over and over again like you're trying to convince yourself it makes any sense.

If a new game is developed and launched on the PS4, a company could just as much develop and launch a new game for a Steam Machine. Full stop right there: the concept is no different.

To which you'll quip, "But I don't want a Steam Machine, because I can't play all of my 10-year old games!"

Then the 10-year old games get ported over and you complain, "But they're 10-year old games! Nobody wants to play those!"


Everybody here who has at least two brain cells to rub together plainly understands that for "Steam Machines" or whatever to be successful that they will need to land the new, AAA games just like Steam does. NOBODY is arguing otherwise. But you're completely dismissing the possibility even before the platform is released.
 
jwcalla said:
You keep repeating this over and over and over again like you're trying to convince yourself it makes any sense.
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Every OS is judged by the number of programs/apps that it runs. How many times have people in here stated that they'd dump Windows completely if it ran XYZ? I'd dump Windows is it were 100% compatible with all of my software and hardware. Everyone would because it's free.
 
heatlesssun said:
Every OS is judged by the number of programs/apps that it runs. How many times have people in here stated that they'd dump Windows completely if it ran XYZ? I'd dump Windows is it were 100% compatible with all of my software and hardware. Everyone would because it's free.
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Well, to most computer shoppers, Windows is essentially "free" as well, which more or less removes the cost argument :(
 
heatlesssun said:
Every OS is judged by the number of programs/apps that it runs. How many times have people in here stated that they'd dump Windows completely if it ran XYZ? I'd dump Windows is it were 100% compatible with all of my software and hardware. Everyone would because it's free.
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That's all irrelevant to the conversation of Steam Machines and you know it. Nobody cares that the PS4 doesn't run Microsoft Excel. If Steam Machines can get the kind of game support that PS4 gets going forward, it has the potential to do well. It doesn't need Windows, just like the PS4 doesn't need Windows, and it doesn't need a 10-year old game library, just like the PS4 doesn't need a 10-year old game library. The whole argument is nonsense.

If developers target SteamOS going forward, then the platform will do well. I do not think they will ship millions of units in a month or whatever, but Valve has said that this is about opening a door in the living room and at least being in the mix.

Seriously... anybody who is a PC gamer should be supporting this... heavily. Some of the comments here and elsewhere in the interwebs are very bizarre. It is almost like they will spite PC gaming simply because they're butthurt that Valve didn't base its machine on Windows.
 
Ohh and Valve has just come out and said that Steam Machines will be "front and center" at their display at GDC. So so much for them being "dead".

Is it just me or is [H] turning into ?
 
jwcalla said:
That's all irrelevant to the conversation of Steam Machines and you know it. Nobody cares that the PS4 doesn't run Microsoft Excel.
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How many games in the Steam catalog currently run on Linux/Steam OS? And how many currently run on Windows? I have no idea why you're talking about Excel.
 
heatlesssun said:
How many games in the Steam catalog currently run on Linux/Steam OS? And how many currently run on Windows? I have no idea why you're talking about Excel.
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How many run on the PS4? And how many run on Windows? See we can play this all day. Sony has a sliver of the number of games on the PC. If Valve can get the same developers for their platform, why can't they do what Sony does? You are arguing, down to the letter of it, that Valve can not do with Linux what Sony did with FreeBSD, and it's a preposterous argument.

Obviously one of the key long-term points of Valve's investment is to get the gaming world off of a dependency on Windows and other closed, proprietary technologies and move PC gaming into an open platform.

We're talking about all very basic stuff here.

You would think PC gamers would be behind this 100%.
 
leeleatherwood said:
I think Linux will kill the "official" Steam machine. Most games on steam wont work with Linux.

On the other hand, Windows Steam in Big Picture mode is almost perfect.

If Valve wants the steam machine to succeed, they need to ditch Linux.
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That was my first thought when I heard about the steam machines in the beginning. Media center PCs have always been a nitch market. The steam machine seems to be a more torn down version of them in a sense. The media functions in the modern consoles(the xbox one even more) I believe have hurt the market's potential as well. Really I saw steam os as Gabe trying to come up with something to fight the integrated stores that everything has now. You can't fault him for this, in the end the microsoft store doesn't have to be better than steam to win, just really be usable. Apple has already established their app store on the mac, the consoles have their own as do the phones. Linux in that sense is a good direction to go.

The PC market for many developers is a second class market already. Big publishers push towards consoles where the market is bigger and the cost of the games stays higher longer. Steam OS will be a second class market in a market that is already second class. Their problem is that they need the titles to make it work but they need it to work to bring in the titles. It will be an expensive box with limited market appeal. In this market it will not be able to compete with MS, Sony, and in a sense Nintendo on price.

Really the best way for this to work would be using windows, at least at first. Hell windows embedded might have been a good choice. Run it off flash media with a locked down file system as it normally is run which will make it more secure. Windows 8 costs oems like 50 bucks from my understanding and 15 bucks if the device is under 250 bucks. Large OEMs are said to pay closer to 30 for it on machines. With this in mind windows isn't a major cost when you factor in the greater support. Now who knows maybe valve could have built an environment to port games into that would help port the underlining os to linux in the future. I don't think it would have worked but it could have been an option.

heatlesssun said:
Perhaps, but Apple never done a console either. And given the margins on them, never will.
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They have and it failed. The Apple Bandai Pippin was released in the 90s. Pippin was designed to be licensed in a way like the 3do although bandai is the only one that released one. Jobs killed it when he killed the apple clones although I don't think it was going anywhere before that.
 
jwcalla said:
How many run on the PS4? And how many run on Windows? See we can play this all day. Sony has a sliver of the number of games on the PC. If Valve can get the same developers for their platform, why can't they do what Sony does? You are arguing, down to the letter of it, that Valve can not do with Linux what Sony did with FreeBSD, and it's a preposterous argument.

Obviously one of the key long-term points of Valve's investment is to get the gaming world off of a dependency on Windows and other closed, proprietary technologies and move PC gaming into an open platform.

We're talking about all very basic stuff here.

You would think PC gamers would be behind this 100%.
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Sony threw a lot of money into its gaming console and sold the systems at a loss for years to establish it. The PS4 is the first one that cost less to built at launch than it sold for. Even then that is the estimated cost to built one without the overhead of marketing, R&D to design, back end server support, warranty support, etc. They can do this because they control the system completely. Valve can't do this as easy if they have OEM's selling their own versions. The OEM's will need to turn their profit at first sale unless valve gives them back end money. The Playstation also is more simple. I mean this from the end user side. You know that any game you buy that says ps4 on it will play the same on pretty much every playstation 4 out there.

I'm not saying valve can't pull it off, I'm saying it is a very hard market and I don't think they will.

Also lets not kid ourselves that valve is trying to "get the gaming world off of a dependency on Windows and other closed, proprietary technologies and move PC gaming into an open platform". They want a closed platform that they can continue to control(the steam store). This was done to fight the move of other app stores. Look at how apple has managed to get so much to go through their app store on the mac. They are worried about MS being able to do the same thing which would hurt them greatly.
 
jwcalla said:
Is it just me or is [H] turning into ?
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Just you. The rest of us are giving this a [H]ard critical look rather than blind faith.

As a PC gamer, I like the idea of a SteamOS in the sense that I don't have to spend $100 on a Windows key. However, from a cost to benefit analysis, the fact that I have access to greater numbers of PC games once I buy that Windows key justifies that $100. That $100 also gets me greater performance as well since driver and driver performance on Linux is still lagging behind Windows. That $100 also gets me a more flexibile multi-media experience that, at worst, is equal to what we're seeing with the PS4 and Xbox One. $100 also means that I don't have to give up on games that I actually still play several years after release.

Valve unfortunately screwed the pooch on this. They've burned through all the goodwill and excitement they got when the SteamBox was first announced by constantly delaying the release of the official SteamBox/SteamOS. They also screwed PC OEMs and PC boutiques who did initially support the SteamOS/SteamBox concept by constantly delaying the release of the official SteamBox/SteamOS. Those delays were costing those PC OEM/PC boutiques money in the form of no return on their investments/R&D, and marketing. Not to mention Valve also doesn't have the necessary resources or manpower to pull off the breakthroughs needed to make a SteamBox, SteamOS, or just basic gaming on Linux truly successful. Nor has Valve been fully open about current and future developments of SteamOS/SteamBox. Nor has Valve actually shown that the SteamOS will deliver on Valve's promises.

In other words, the rest of us understand that there's just too many factors involved that causes the SteamBox and by extension SteamOS to have a high probability of failure. Valve has made a lot of "promises". But they haven't shown that that they'll actually be able to keep their promises.
 
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If a new game is developed and launched on the PS4, a company could just as much develop and launch a new game for a Steam Machine. Full stop right there: the concept is no different.
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Actually yes, there are big differences. PS4 or Xbox One are backed by two very big companies who spend obscene amounts of money to market and get the developers to develop for their platforms. Somehow I doubt Valve would be able or willing to put so much money on marketing.
 
Pantalaimon said:
Actually yes, there are big differences. PS4 or Xbox One are backed by two very big companies who spend obscene amounts of money to market and get the developers to develop for their platforms. Somehow I doubt Valve would be able or willing to put so much money on marketing.
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Also developers knew that even if the Xbone or PS4 failed, they would likely still sell 10's of millions units, which would still give them a large group market to target, that isn't the case with the Steambox/OS.
 
heatlesssun said:
But the game is over. The score Linux/Steam OS 1638, Windows 9630.
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When you filter the search using "Games" it does cut the numbers down since it gets rid of all the DLC and fluff.

Linux 883
Windows 4359

That is not a huge difference, just a few percentage points of a difference in favor of Linux (Linux having roughly ~17% the amount of games using OPs numbers vs. ~20% with this search)

I find it more impressive looking at the number of games for Linux in almost two years since it launched compared against the 12 years for Windows client. The Linux catalog has grown at a faster yearly rate.
 
TheGardenTool said:
I find it more impressive looking at the number of games for Linux in almost two years since it launched compared against the 12 years for Windows client. The Linux catalog has grown at a faster yearly rate.
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Of course none of that matters when you're arguing with people whose life philosophy is, "This is how we've always done it, and so this is how we should do it forever."
 
TheGardenTool said:
When you filter the search using "Games" it does cut the numbers down since it gets rid of all the DLC and fluff.

Linux 883
Windows 4359

That is not a huge difference, just a few percentage points of a difference in favor of Linux (Linux having roughly ~17% the amount of games using OPs numbers vs. ~20% with this search)

I find it more impressive looking at the number of games for Linux in almost two years since it launched compared against the 12 years for Windows client. The Linux catalog has grown at a faster yearly rate.
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You need to remember that Linux didn't sprout into being with the introduction of SteamOS, just Windows existed before 8.1
 
If they took the time to publicly put down Steam machine, then something must be popping up.
 
All Valve needs to do is release HL3 on the same day as the Steam Boxes launch w/ Linux only support initially.

That's what I'd do.
 
jwcalla said:
Of course none of that matters when you're arguing with people whose life philosophy is, "This is how we've always done it, and so this is how we should do it forever."
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I'm actually arguing "This is how it's been done now show me something better." I just don't know how better is being able to less that what I can do now.
 
Skillz said:
All Valve needs to do is release HL3 on the same day as the Steam Boxes launch w/ Linux only support initially.

That's what I'd do.
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But that simply makes no business sense from Valve's perspective. Valve has made the point that they are platform agnostic. And why lock a title down where nearly 99% (Windows + OS X combined) wouldn't be able to run it without either buying hundreds of dollars in hardware or installing SteamOS on existing hardware? Given that Valve makes money on selling games and not the hardware nor SteamOS.
 
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