NVIDIA NDA & HardOCP - POLL

HardOCP Signs the NVIDIA NDA for 2080 Launch Access?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

WAterTriAd

n00b
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
25
Yes but the people that are pre-ordering now are a small portion of the market compared to those that are waiting on reviews and even the casual gamers that don't know the release is coming til launches. Again, the diehard fan like us are the minority.



That NDA only bound you by information officially provided by them and deemed as confidential. Information Kyle dug up through sources at other manufacturers, AIB partners and even off the record sources in Nvidia would not be bound. And since Kyle dug up the story based on good old fashioned investigative journalism and not "confidential information given to him by Nvidia", it would not have been bound by the NDA.



Yes, a handful. All it would take is one person of that handful to drop an anonymous phone call to some random YouTuber that Nvidia had never heard of and hadn't signed the NDA and whammo, it's now out in the public domain and will get more attention and then eventually picked up by the major sites.

I don't think you understand how insidious that NDA is.

The way it's written, if Nvidia wants to do something and keep it hush hush, they send the information about the program to any journalists that have signed the NDA. Even if information then arises from secondary sources it would have gutted the article as any information that looks like it could have been gleaned from original memo sent on the program has to be redacted or the journalist has to give up their sources in court to prove that got the information from a different avenue. That's a win/win for Nvidia. They get to cause major problems for any journalist that's signed the agreement if their story even reeks of revealing previously disclosed "confidential" information. It doesn't matter if the journalist has legit sources or not, it still ties up their time and money and allows Nvidia to gag any additional details on the story until it's been tried.

The NDA Nvidia is asking to be signed is abusive.
 
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FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
52,494
This is what you don't understand. Nvidia with GPP detailed a public program, they sent info to NDA holders. There NDA does not expire when something is made public BY nvidia. You can not go and say unnamed source told me X if your in the loop at all. Its spelled out very plain in their NDA. To publish Kyle if he was under NDA would have had to ask permission for a period of 5 years.

And some random You tuber isn't going to mean jack if no real new site is going to back them. There are tons of conspiracy theories on youtube right now. They don't have the sway some one like Kyle does >.< Even with Kyle a lot of people claimed he was full of it.

If he signs hey its his choice. He has earned most folks respect no matter what he chooses to do. But legally I get why his own lawyer has said its a bad idea for him. Their NDA is clearly designed to quash any investigative reporting by NDA signatories. In their defense.... devils advocate it would put the dampers on Rando youtubers with minor review access from turning into Conspiracy sites with just enough info to be annoying.

I don't think you understand how insidious that NDA.

The way it's written, if NVidia wants to do something and keep it hush hush, they send the information about the program to any journalists that have signed the NDA. Even if information then arises from secondary sources it would have gutted the article as any information that looks like it could have been gleaned from original memo sent on the program has to be redacted or the journalist has to give up their sources in court to prove that got the information from a different avenue. That's a win/win for Nvidia. They get to cause major problems for any journalist that's signed the agreement if their story even reeks of revealing previously disclosed "confidential" information. It doesn't matter if the journalist has legit sources or not, it still ties up their time and money and allows Nvidia to gag any additional details on the story until it's been tried.

The NDA Nvidia is asking to be signed is abusive.
^ Some folks get it. As I have said over and over, that NDA is NOT for card reviewers. If all you do is review cards, go for it.

And what people fail to understand here on the journalism side is that NDA invites litigation. Now say I was inside the NDA's or outside the NDA's terms, either way I still would have to fight it in court, and that is not somewhere I want to be and have to pay for again. NVIDIA has way more resources than I do. Last time I was in court it cost me a quarter million dollars out of pocket and damn near ruined me and HardOCP. And that was a shitty company with little resources I was dealing with.
 

B770

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
106
Well, I backed up my NO vote with a visit to Patreon... If everyone voting in this poll did the same, the correct answer would be for Kyle to print out the NDA, defecate on it, and then send it in to Jensen Huang.

i did the same, kind of a put your $$ where your mouth is.......
 

Corvette

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Messages
1,269
Man, I misread the title and thought that something in the contract bound you until the year 2080. I looked all over trying to figure out how that was possible.

Anyway, I voted yes because NDAs are common in the tech sector and this one doesn't seem that bad. [H] was never a leaky site anyway.

On the other hand, I also don't see the money spent as lost. You gained a product for market value (more or less) and the vast majority of that purchase could be recovered if you weren't going to keep the product anyway. However, if the free review samples are a major source of income then I'm wrong again.
 

pendragon1

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 7, 2000
Messages
35,700
Yes but the people that are pre-ordering now are a small portion of the market compared to those that are waiting on reviews and even the casual gamers that don't know the release is coming til launches. Again, the diehard fan like us are the minority.
the first few batches will all sell out regardless of who has a review out. by the time those waiting for reviews wait for a restock [H]'s review will be out and then they can make a properly informed buying decision.
 

albie

n00b
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
4
HardOCP may have to keep the RTX cards after the initial first round of review because the way of GPU reviews may change moving forward because of AI and more importantly, real time Ray Tracing. There are very limited games that supports this new feature at the moment and the current sets of games selected for benchmarks will not be sufficient moving forward. There may be a different sets of GPU reviews may appear, GTX (2060,2070,etc) and RTX (2080, 2080Ti). So maybe AIB will send HardOCP review samples after the embargo without signing the NDA (I don't know).


So whether NDA is signed or not at this point, let's help HardOCP to grow. Here's the Patreon link to HardOCP.

https://www.patreon.com/HardOCP/overview

"Fun" fact:
AdoredTV
528 patrons and they are receiving $1,536 a month.

GamersNexus
1423 patrons, $5,654 a month.


I changed my mind on signing the NDA to No. But I hope we all can help to increase HardOCP readership to new readers.
 

ChadD

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
5,475
No, I get it....I just think not signing the NDA will hurt your business more than signing it would especially when it seems virtually no other site, channel or blog is refusing to sign. I know you're a tech journalist first and a video card reviewer second but testing and reviewing GPU's is a very large part of your business, maybe even bigger than the journalism side so cutting yourself off from the only GPU game in town right now on the chance another GPP type story comes down the pike will hurt the business more....at least in my opinion.

I'm with ya either way brother. We both want what's best for the [H].

Well he isn't cutting himself off. He is opting out of early review hardware. Unless Nvidia is refusing to sell him product.

I don't imagine he will have any issue recouping the majority of his money on the second hand market. Kyle can easily sell them on his own site. Keeping what he needs for comparisons down the road and using those costs as a tax deduction.

There is potential lost ad revenue in the form of day one launch hits. Even then I don't believe it will be major. I will read day one reviews... but I'll get to them via the [H] day one review roundup post. :p lol
 

Nobu

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
7,133
Lets not forget there are other things to review too–nvidia isn't the only thing driving traffic to this site. There are motherboards, cpus, psus, coolers, cases and plenty of other shit to review between GPU releases.

It'll hurt a bit not having a review out day one, but I think y'all are blowing it a bit out of proportion.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
It'll hurt a bit not having a review out day one, but I think y'all are blowing it a bit out of proportion.

There's probably not going to be anything to buy for a while after retail launch day due to the presales. I was keeping an eye out on the FE 2080 Tis and it was presold through mid-November before nVidia shut it down.
 

Nobu

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
7,133
There's probably not going to be anything to buy for a while after retail launch day due to the presales. I was keeping an eye out on the FE 2080 Tis and it was presold through mid-November before nVidia shut it down.
Yeah, iirc kyle got at least one coming around sep 8, and some more set for October. It's somewhere in this thread.
 

pendragon1

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 7, 2000
Messages
35,700
There's probably not going to be anything to buy for a while after retail launch day due to the presales. I was keeping an eye out on the FE 2080 Tis and it was presold through mid-November before nVidia shut it down.
that's what I was saying. people waiting on reviews are too late for the first few batches anyways. so it prob wont matter if [H] is "late".
 

MMitch

Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
807
Kyle, not sure what could get out of this but you may want to speak with AMD marketing if you decide not to sign it. They may want to reward such action ;)
 

DPI

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,099
Lets not forget there are other things to review too–nvidia isn't the only thing driving traffic to this site. There are motherboards, cpus, psus, coolers, cases and plenty of other shit to review between GPU releases.

It'll hurt a bit not having a review out day one, but I think y'all are blowing it a bit out of proportion.
I don't think it's out of proportion at all. New Nvidia cards = review superbowl. Only happens every couple years.

If that wasn't the case then this thread wouldn't even exist.
 
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next-Jin

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
6,965
I voted No only because of Kyles comments on the NDA and the fact he wants to continue to be more than just another review site.

I get that, but quite frankly you have to do what’s best for business and only Kyle knows what that is. We don’t have privy to internal workings or finances.

So whatever route they take I’m alright with.
 

painintheworld

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
145
I voted Yes because I trust [H]. I will gladly throw in a few $ if a separate fund is started to procure an RTX card.
 

Nolan7689

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
1,694
Is this where we circlejerk about becoming Tequila?
upload_2018-8-22_20-34-10.jpeg
 

Fikus

n00b
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
3
I donate money to Hardocp every month. One of the reasons is so it remains as a site that stands up for what is right. Signing an NDA agreement goes against that. Seems like most NDA's are now attempting to silence a free press. Please don't sign any NDA agreements that restrict what you can say.

-Fikus
 

Omegas

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
10,489
Here's the fun part, Kyle pays out of pocket for the first batch, but do you really think Asus/MSI/GiB/etc aren't going to send him some of their aftermarket versions for free later on?? NDA free and with a lot more class to I'm sure.
 

bobdabilder

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
291
Don't sign it, Kyle. Think of all the shit you've endured over the years: infinium, etc. Nvidia will not only use this against you, but they will split your skull with it.
 

Joust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Nov 30, 2017
Messages
5,107
Over 1,000 voters have chimed in. The sentiment is pretty clear on both sides. So. What do you think, Kyle?
 

workshop35

Gawd
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
714
Voted no just because Kyle took a stand once on the NDA before based on principle and it shouldn't change now. If anything goes screwy and nvidia goes to town on this site, many of us have nowhere else to go for our tech reviews and real forum discussions.

I'll echo the crowd-funding option for hardware again. If you need something Kyle, put up a fundraiser for it and we'll make it happen.
 
D

Deleted member 82943

Guest
I just doubled my membership pledge fuck Nvidia. Stay [H] Kyle ... erm wait
 

Ripskin

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 15, 2004
Messages
2,417
I do not know enough about the nitty gritty details of the NDA to say properly.

I voted no solely for you and [H]ArdOCP to make the decision based upon what you always have done which is right by the community and your intuition. I did not see anything in there saying you cannot be honest about the product once released as at that point it is purchasable product but again I have no base reference.

There are benefits to signing and being able to prep a review with more lead time but there is also a solid reason to hold off on the NDA and review retail cards as the rest of us would get them, random silicon and no potential ringers.
 

laguerre

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
1,129
It's too soon.

It sucks that NDAs are sold to review sites (in the form of free hardware).

You guys are always great at linking reputable sites and I would continue to do that and offer commentary until your reviews can come out.

Let the NDA simmer for a while and see if it still looks palatable when the next launch nears.
 

mashie

Mawd Gawd
Joined
Oct 25, 2000
Messages
4,260
I voted no, a few days extra delay before seeing the [H] review isn't going to cause any negative impact for me. I do value the impartiality more then yet another website full of yes-men praising everything given for free so they keep on getting free stuff.
 

RanceJustice

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
6,229
As others have said, I can see the argument for both sides. Just out of curiosity, do you think there could be a middle ground?

If an attorney you trust tells you that this is a particularly harsh NDA and designed to control the narrative way beyond simply preventing leaks, then I'd certainly lean towards "No". To echo others of the forum, many people come to [H] for the quality of their reviews, not their speed, so if signing Nvidia's NDA could harm the "[H] brand" by not allowing you to really test the way you wish or say what you please, then it sounds like a bad idea. However, this isn't just about being in the very first wave of reviews but also the cost involved; it really isn't fair for you to have to pay thousands out of your own pocket to review a product properly when others will get them handed over for free if they agree to the NDA. Sadly though, there are some times in this world when ethics and ideals come with high costs. Regardless, it is not an easy one to bear and if you choose that route I think there will be those that will assist with other ways to at least help defer some of the cost - GoFundMe / Patreon / LiberaPay for instance, and programs like allowing any donators chances in obtaining the cards when they are raffled off seems promising.

However, before any final decision is made do you think it may be worth it to speak of a middle ground? That is to say, contact Nvidia again and politely let them know what portions of the NDA concern you and your attorney; that you'd like to sign if some things were changed and language clarified to ensure you could still give your readers the full [H] treatment. The worst they can say is basically "No, sign it as it is or don't", which only puts you back to where you are at the moment. If they've extended the NDA offer in the first place they must know that [H] is worthwhile and especially after the GPP nonsense maybe they're trying to show the public/media "See, even those guys who broke story X that unveiled us really looking evil signed up so we're not that bad!". Thus, they may be willing to adjust a bit and provide something akin to a standard NDA that one could expect from any other company. If they aren't and you choose not to sign well... then I think AMD (and others) may be very, very interested in the long running site that stood fast against overly restrictive NDAs...

Edit: Some of the recent comments and discussion on the contents of the NDA (of course, I am not aware of the full amount or ramifications thereof), suggest that it is written in a way that could mean that signing would mean giving up the ability to report on certain facets of industry news , do investigative reporting, and/or increase the chances of a court battle regardless of if Kyle and [H] are eventually deemed right in the end. If this is the case then I more emphatically lean towards "No". An NDA boilerplate style to prevent leaks before certain dates in return for swift access and hardware to test is one thing; one designed to control the narrative by wrapping everyone into the "family" legally speaking and then trying to point fingers for breaches of confidential information? Not acceptable!
 
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Nobu

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
7,133
As others have said, I can see the argument for both sides. Just out of curiosity, do you think there could be a middle ground?

If an attorney you trust tells you that this is a particularly harsh NDA and designed to control the narrative way beyond simply preventing leaks, then I'd certainly lean towards "No". To echo others of the forum, many people come to [H] for the quality of their reviews, not their speed, so if signing Nvidia's NDA could harm the "[H] brand" by not allowing you to really test the way you wish or say what you please, then it sounds like a bad idea. However, this isn't just about being in the very first wave of reviews but also the cost involved; it really isn't fair for you to have to pay thousands out of your own pocket to review a product properly when others will get them handed over for free if they agree to the NDA. Sadly though, there are some times in this world when ethics and ideals come with high costs. Regardless, it is not an easy one to bear and if you choose that route I think there will be those that will assist with other ways to at least help defer some of the cost - GoFundMe / Patreon / LiberaPay for instance, and programs like allowing any donators chances in obtaining the cards when they are raffled off seems promising.

However, before any final decision is made do you think it may be worth it to speak of a middle ground? That is to say, contact Nvidia again and politely let them know what portions of the NDA concern you and your attorney; that you'd like to sign if some things were changed and language clarified to ensure you could still give your readers the full [H] treatment. The worst they can say is basically "No, sign it as it is or don't", which only puts you back to where you are at the moment. If they've extended the NDA offer in the first place they must know that [H] is worthwhile and especially after the GPP nonsense maybe they're trying to show the public/media "See, even those guys who broke story X that unveiled us really looking evil signed up so we're not that bad!". Thus, they may be willing to adjust a bit and provide something akin to a standard NDA that one could expect from any other company. If they aren't and you choose not to sign well... then I think AMD (and others) may be very, very interested in the long running site that stood fast against overly restrictive NDAs...
He already asked, afaik no reply yet. Don't know if he specified any changes in his query.
 

Bowman15

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
1,772
I have no loyalty to any company or website. I purchase strictly on most bang for the buck. The day the NDA is lifted I will be visiting all the websites that have reviews just like everyone else. Including the posters that say they will wait for Kyle's, because quite frankly I don't believe them (human nature and the urge to see them). It will be almost impossible not to hear and learn about the numbers going forward so waiting 7-10 days is senseless. To say there are no other websites you can trust is ridiculous. If their are "gotchyas" they will come out soon enough either way. The NDA sucks and Kyle is in between a rock and a hard place so all I can say is good luck.
 
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scojer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
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8,147
I have no loyalty to any company or website. I purchase strictly on most bang for the buck. The day the NDA is lifted I will be visiting all the websites that have reviews just like everyone else. Including the posters that say they will wait for Kyle's, because quite frankly I don't believe them (human nature and the urge to see them). It will be almost impossible not to hear and learn about the numbers going forward so waiting 7-10 days is senseless. To say there are no other websites you can trust is ridiculous. If their are "gotchyas" they will come out soon enough either way. The NDA sucks and Kyle is in between a rock and a hard place so all I can say is good luck.

I'm sure some people will look at other sites on launch day for the reviews.
I won't, because I'm not going to buy it right away, or, within a few months of launch. I'm sure I'm the minority though here on [H] though when it comes to upgrading, I only do it every few years. I just built my rig in April so I'll have it until the 30xx or 40xx series comes out.
 
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