Nvidia blocks AMD from optimizing drivers for GameWorks titles.

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cageymaru

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Main article from Extremetech. Explains it all very succinctly.

What is GameWorks.

Another take on the main article.


GameWorks titles are the games that Nvidia sponsors and they typically use PhysX. Now those sponsored titles are going to have their engine's graphics optimizations locked to Nvidia only. Meaning that Nvidia will do the optimizations for AMD and Intel GPUs as the libraries to do so are now proprietary to Nvidia. AMD is completely blocked from optimizing their drivers for those games from now on.

In Batman Origins it seems that the Nvidia GTX 770 is just as fast as an AMD R290x because of Nvidia GameWorks. So this is Nvidia's answer to AMD winning the console contracts; block AMD optimizing it's drivers for Nvidia games altogether. If this sounds familiar, remember when Intel did the same to AMD nearly a decade ago for CPUs. "Nvidia’s GameWorks program is conceptually similar to what Intel pulled on AMD 8-10 years back. In that situation, Intel’s compilers refused to optimize code for AMD processors, even though AMD had paid Intel for the right to implement SSE, SSE2, and SSE3. The compiler would search for a CPU string rather than just the ability to execute the vectorized code, and if it detected AuthenticAMD instead of GenuineIntel, it refused to use the most advantageous optimizations. "

So I guess we're back to a decade ago in the hardware wars. What do you guys think? Nvidia doing the right thing to hang on for dear life or untrustworthy as usual? What do you think? Boycott GameWorks titles? Or embrace them? Should consumers care? Should the developers that use such bullshit directly eat the fallout from this?
 

Nenu

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I guess Batman just got old, only losers in this game.
Its about time there was an organisation that has some clout, to protect the industry as a whole from this kind of crap.
 

jbltecnicspro

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I would get up in arms about this, but then there's Mantle. It's very lame though that Radeon users have to suffer because of this bullshit.
 

Pieter3dnow

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it does not matter :) Nvidia can't put in resources into positive things unless you count crippling games enough to make Nvidia "look" faster.
 

flak-spammer

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To be honest, it sounds as stupid as mantle, and it's probably designed to partially combat mantle. Honestly neither organization is doing the graphics/gaming industry any favours they just want more money. However ultimately consumers have to deal with crap like this from most companies that have competitors so it's not surprising and we lose in the end. Although to be fair if any company writes an extremely optimized API (CUDA for instance) then they should be entitlled to reap the rewards of their efforts, so it's a double edged sword, that's the price that consumers pay for having software sponsored by hardware companies.
 

cageymaru

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Well the jury is still out on Mantle as it's currently not out "in the wild". Going by what AMD says they want to accomplish, Mantle will be hardware agnostic within 6 months of the initial launch if Nvidia wants to use it. Also DX11 will be alive and kicking for Nvidia to optimize with even if they don't want to support Mantle as Mantle games will support both pipelines.

GameWorks is Nvidia introducing more proprietary "tech"; and I use the word tech lightly. It's basically them locking AMD out of improving their drivers for GameWorks games. It doesn't have anything to do with them trying to help the industry or standardize tech. It's them trying to make a new market for themselves by making AMD cards look bad intentionally as seen in the performance charts in the article.

I think that anyone that reads the article can see what I'm talking about. I like to switch up hardware manufacturers and this gives me pause to supporting Nvidia when they are clearly being protectionist and anti consumer choice. They can't fool me into thinking that suddenly a GTX 770 is as fast as a R9 290x. That's dishonesty on their part. Well that's my opinion. :)
 

Brackle

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Doesn't shock me, They did the same thing with Crysis 2. I mean hell even the article mentions that.

With AMD putting the pressure on Nvidia, and basically tesla being a flop, I can see Nvidia being desperate.

P.S. Waiting for Prime1 troll post in 3, 2, 1.....
 

Yakk

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Well, this has been going on for years in various forms from nvidia. It not really news per say, but it good to see this type of behind-the-scenes activity highlighted in articles like this. AMD optimized tessellation settings helps mitigate this quite a bit.

This type of politics playing probably contributed to developers actively asking for a product like Mantle with the new AMD consoles coming in and hampered performance on some libraries for bought off, err.. "sponsored" games.
 

primetime

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Stuff like this only makes me more likely to buy amd cards.......but that's just me......never had an amd card till now and couldnt be happier with the performance and price
 

moose517

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quite honestly something like that would make me just refuse to buy gameworks games in general, i've already given up on nvidia because of their ways. I would love to have the physx effects some of the games have but can't cause i'm ATi but its not worth going back to nvidia for them.
 

Priller

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quite honestly something like that would make me just refuse to buy gameworks games in general, i've already given up on nvidia because of their ways. I would love to have the physx effects some of the games have but can't cause i'm ATi but its not worth going back to nvidia for them.

Which will hurt the developer and they may decide to go around Nvidia on their own if it hurts their bottom line.
 

xoleras

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LOL.

Typical of AMD to pretend to be the victim through sensationalist articles. It almost deflects their gross negligence of their software, or that's probably their intention anyway.

Nobody is holding a gun to a developers head forcing them to use nvidia features. We can also just forget examples of AMD games such as Dragon Age 2 or Tomb Raider where nvidia was denied access to collaborate with developers, leading to terrible TressFX performance on NV cards at launch. Dragon Age II barely worked on nvidia cards at launch. Nvidia denied collaboration with Bioware during development. Nope. Oh. Dirt showdown. Using AMD features that are intentionally gimped on nvidia cards leading AMD cards to have a commanding performance lead. No, let's just forget that happened - Nvidia is evil. AMD is the victim. Poor AMD. Meanwhile, let's just deflect while we pretend they're the poor victim and overlook the fact that their software is neglected and they release broken driver after broken driver. Their latest driver broke HDMI audio again. Their latest driver fails to recover after sleep. Again. They still haven't fixed CF+EF microstutter two years after the problem existed.

Oh, heck. On this very forum even. AMD 290X CF is broken on X58 chipset boards:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1796442

Or, even better. A driver thread on this forum:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1797590&page=4

Let's see here. MLAA doesn't work for DX10/11 in latest driver. Check. Broken HDMI audio. Check. Recover from sleep not working for most users. Check. CF+EF microstutter for 79xx cards not fixed two years later. Check. No new features since MLAA in 2010. Check.


NOPE. AMD IS THE VICTIM GUYS. Let's just forget the instances of where AMD did the same thing with AMD GE titles. Poor AMD. Poor, poor AMD. Those evil assholes at nvidia. Trying to screw them over. Oh the hilarity of threads like this. Perhaps AMD can get some pity sales through having their marketing team spread sensationalist articles like this which are barely based on reality. Maybe through a few more pity sales, AMD can edge up from the fact that nvidia has 64.8% discrete GPU market share these days. I'm sure that happened not because nvidia makes better products, but because nvidia are evil jerks. We'll just pretend AMD hasn't done their fair share of bullshit. They're the victim.
 
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pcjunkie

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This is one of the reason's I don't have a problem with AMD releasing Mantle. Nvidia has been pulling this kind of shit as long as they've been around. Certain game developers should be chastised as well.
 

cageymaru

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LOL.

Typical of AMD to pretend to be the victim through sensationalist articles. It almost deflects their gross negligence of their software, or that's probably their intention anyway.

Nobody is holding a gun to a developers head forcing them to use nvidia features. We can also just forget examples of AMD games such as Dragon Age 2 or Tomb Raider where nvidia was denied access to collaborate with developers, leading to terrible TressFX performance on NV cards at launch. Dragon Age II barely worked on nvidia cards at launch. Nvidia denied collaboration with Bioware during development. Nope. Oh. Dirt showdown. Using AMD features that are intentionally gimped on nvidia cards leading AMD cards to have a commanding performance lead. No, let's just forget that happened - Nvidia is evil. AMD is the victim. Poor AMD. Meanwhile, let's just deflect while we pretend they're the poor victim and overlook the fact that their software is neglected and they release broken driver after broken driver. Their latest driver broke HDMI audio again. Their latest driver fails to recover after sleep. Again. They still haven't fixed CF+EF microstutter two years after the problem existed.

Oh, heck. On this very forum even. AMD 290X CF is broken on X58 chipset boards:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1796442

Or, even better. A driver thread on this forum:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1797590&page=4

Let's see here. MLAA doesn't work for DX10/11 in latest driver. Check. Broken HDMI audio. Check. Recover from sleep not working for most users. Check. CF+EF microstutter for 79xx cards not fixed two years later. Check. No new features since MLAA in 2010. Check.


NOPE. AMD IS THE VICTIM GUYS. Let's just forget the instances of where AMD did the same thing with AMD GE titles. Poor AMD. Poor, poor AMD. Those evil assholes at nvidia. Trying to screw them over. Oh the hilarity of threads like this. Perhaps AMD can get some pity sales through having their marketing team spread sensationalist articles like this which are barely based on reality.

@Xoleras

Why are you going batshit crazy? If that's what you feel the need to do to justify a purchase, then glad you bought Nvidia's products then. They need more weirdo posts like you just did. Because the rest of us rational thinkers know that games are released to cater to one camp or another, but drivers are optimized later on to support all vendor's cards.

What Nvidia is doing to throwing up a brick wall to optimization after the game is released by doing all optimizations themselves. Do you think it is a great idea that only Nvidia can optimize drivers for GameWorks games? That Nvidia is responsible for the game being optimized for AMD and Intel GPUs?

To a rational thinking person that seems like it is a helluva lot different than game coming out optimized for Nvidia or AMD, then the other camp getting a crack at the code and new drivers to fix issues are addressed a month or so later. You're certainly entitled to your opinion as wrong as I know it is.

:)
 

xoleras

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One, the article you posted in the OP is sensationalist and isn't based on reality. Gameworks intent from what I've read isn't to hijack AMD, and no one is forcing a developer to use any of it. It is all based on choice. AMD also has numerous developer tools which are optimized for GCN and guess what. They don't perform all that great on nvidia hardware.

Furthermore, if you think AMD hasn't done their fair share of bullshit. You are wrong. Period. I named several examples of them doing AMD specific optimizations with crippled nvidia performance, and there have been numerous AMD GE titles to where nvidia was denied collaboration with developers. You're trying to make it sound like nvidia is some evil company trying to hijack AMD at every turn. I'm about 99% sure that's bullshit. You're also ignoring instances of AMD optimizing for AMD GCN hardware to the detriment of nvidia cards. It's okay for AMD to do it, though, right? Whatever.

But I do find the pity play for AMD to be quite humorous. We'll just pretend AMD is the holiest of companies while nvidia are evil jerks. We'll just forget all the bullshit that AMD has done. We'll just forget about their gross negligence of their customers and their software/drivers. The fault is nvidia's. Right? It isn't AMD's fault. We'll just pretend that.
 

TroyX

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it doesn't matter really, from now on every console port will be AMD optimized from the start, the only company that needs to do major optimizing is Nvidia.

people are forgetting that PS4 and Xbox One are both running on AMD hardware.
 

FrameBuffer

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LOL.

Typical of AMD to pretend to be the victim through sensationalist articles. It almost deflects their gross negligence of their software, or that's probably their intention anyway.

Nobody is holding a gun to a developers head forcing them to use nvidia features. We can also just forget examples of AMD games such as Dragon Age 2 or Tomb Raider where nvidia was denied access to collaborate with developers, leading to terrible TressFX performance on NV cards at launch. Dragon Age II barely worked on nvidia cards at launch. Nvidia denied collaboration with Bioware during development. Nope. Oh. Dirt showdown. Using AMD features that are intentionally gimped on nvidia cards leading AMD cards to have a commanding performance lead. No, let's just forget that happened - Nvidia is evil. AMD is the victim. Poor AMD. Meanwhile, let's just deflect while we pretend they're the poor victim and overlook the fact that their software is neglected and they release broken driver after broken driver. Their latest driver broke HDMI audio again. Their latest driver fails to recover after sleep. Again. They still haven't fixed CF+EF microstutter two years after the problem existed.

Oh, heck. On this very forum even. AMD 290X CF is broken on X58 chipset boards:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1796442

Or, even better. A driver thread on this forum:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1797590&page=4

Let's see here. MLAA doesn't work for DX10/11 in latest driver. Check. Broken HDMI audio. Check. Recover from sleep not working for most users. Check. CF+EF microstutter for 79xx cards not fixed two years later. Check. No new features since MLAA in 2010. Check.


NOPE. AMD IS THE VICTIM GUYS. Let's just forget the instances of where AMD did the same thing with AMD GE titles. Poor AMD. Poor, poor AMD. Those evil assholes at nvidia. Trying to screw them over. Oh the hilarity of threads like this. Perhaps AMD can get some pity sales through having their marketing team spread sensationalist articles like this which are barely based on reality. Maybe through a few more pity sales, AMD can edge up from the fact that nvidia has 64.8% discrete GPU market share these days. I'm sure that happened not because nvidia makes better products, but because nvidia are evil jerks. We'll just pretend AMD hasn't done their fair share of bullshit. They're the victim.

I dont think anyone besides maybe you is trying to pretend that both sides have exclusive features, I think the point being made is that AMD has never (that we know of) out right PREVENTED any competitor of optimizing their own drivers to gain additional performance gains.

/rant on

I notice you conveniently left out out how NV also had game developers apply techniques that purposely hurt competitors performance ( Crysis Tesselation and Batman Arkin Origins excessive amount of tessellation), and lets not pretend nV does not have issues with HDMI either or 4K displays or that the GTX 600 series had the very same framepacing issues at launch and that ALL GPUs suffer from some form of Microstutter.. nope lets just pretend in your fantasy world that NV = perfect and it's AMD being the baby..(do you REALLY want to bring up the issue of drivers..? How many driver sets did AMD/ATI release that KILLED off gpus ??)

/rant off..

The issue at heart here is that one party is attempting to block ANY and ALL improvement for another party's products to retain it's competitive lead where as the other party has shown a long history of pushing for the use of standards or allowing 3rd party access to it's own offerings

Edit: this sums up my problem rather well:
AMD attempted to provide Warner Bros. Montreal with code to improve Arkham Origins performance in tessellation, as well as to fix certain multi-GPU problems with the game. The studio turned down both.
In the long run, no one benefits from this kind of bifurcated market — especially not end users.
 
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FrameBuffer

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Furthermore, if you think AMD hasn't done their fair share of bullshit. You are wrong. Period. I named several examples of them doing AMD specific optimizations with crippled nvidia performance,

AND you are wrong in your comparison, those "AMD specific optimizations" that "crippled nvidia performance" are no different that what NV has done for over a decade, each vendor has some exclusivity in working with game devs/publishers etc.. UNLESS you are trying to say that it's OK when NV does it but not AMD ? (which would be a counter argument to your own argument)..

Lets ALSO not forget that those "AMD specific optimizations" use DirectX standards, it just so happens that AMD hardware is better suited to (for example) process HDAO in Dirt Showdown.. JUST as previously pointed out that NV did to an even GREATER extent in Crysis 2 with tessellation (Fermi/Keplers strong point).

and there have been numerous AMD GE titles to where nvidia was denied collaboration with developers.

You mean JUST like nV retains exclusive collaboration between it and it's partners ? Or is this YET another case of "OK when NV does it but not AMD ?"

You're trying to make it sound like nvidia is some evil company trying to hijack AMD at every turn. I'm about 99% sure that's bullshit. You're also ignoring instances of AMD optimizing for AMD GCN hardware to the detriment of nvidia cards. It's okay for AMD to do it, though, right? Whatever.

So tell us how exactly "AMD optimizing for AMD GCN hardware to the detriment of nvidia cards" ?? Is AMD blocking nV from using already in place standards (Dx/OGL/OCL) ? Is AMD blocking ANY and ALL improvements to NV drivers on any AMD game partner ? Has AMD locked down Mantle to solely AMD GPUs ?

please free free to provide links and sources to such claims..
 

mi7chy

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Can understand Nvidia feeling a little desperation these days having abandoned x86 compatible CPU and chipset, becoming non-existent in the mobile SoC race and with their last source of revenue, discrete GPUs, losing interest to the competition due to popularity of crypto currency mining and password/hash recovery. But for consumers we benefit from having multiple competitors innovating and fighting for our money otherwise it becomes stagnant and expensive.
 

FrameBuffer

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Can understand Nvidia feeling a little desperation these days having abandoned x86 compatible CPU and chipset, becoming non-existent in the mobile SoC race and with their last source of revenue, discrete GPUs, losing interest to the competition due to popularity of crypto currency mining and password/hash recovery. But for consumers we benefit from having multiple competitors innovating and fighting for our money otherwise it becomes stagnant and expensive.

totally agree, however I think as sensationalist-ic as the OP link may be, locking competitors out completely, I think does more harm in the long run.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Doesn't shock me, They did the same thing with Crysis 2. I mean hell even the article mentions that.

With AMD putting the pressure on Nvidia, and basically tesla being a flop, I can see Nvidia being desperate.

P.S. Waiting for Prime1 troll post in 3, 2, 1.....

Nope. Xoleras stepped up to the plate on this one. :D
 

Sancus

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How exactly is this any worse or more anti-competitive than Mantle? They're both proprietary libraries. The idea that mantle is totally okay because Nvidia can just go ahead and implement it themselves is... ridiculous, to say the least.
 

maboblivion

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How exactly is this any worse or more anti-competitive than Mantle? They're both proprietary libraries. The idea that mantle is totally okay because Nvidia can just go ahead and implement it themselves is... ridiculous, to say the least.

mantle is an api that works on gnc architecture to take advantage of the optimization that was already done on the consoles. You think amd should have coded mantle to work on nvidias hardware ? ahahaha stop.... please! :rolleyes:

It won't stop nvidia from optimizing for dx11. It's just silly to try to imply that, what amd is doing trying to get more performance for "their" hardware, is the same as locking games to one vendor. Welcome to nvidia console on PC. Games for Nvidia LIVE tm.

go home nvidia your drunk!
 

trick0502

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Gameworks can't be compared to mantle.

Mantle is an optional rendering path. If you don't want to run mantle, you can run dx11. Nvidia can optimize their drivers for dx11.

With gameworks games, you have to use the gameworks library's. Those library's are optimized for nvidia and amd can't even look at them to optimize for them.
 

Pieter3dnow

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One, the article you posted in the OP is sensationalist and isn't based on reality. Gameworks intent from what I've read isn't to hijack AMD, and no one is forcing a developer to use any of it. It is all based on choice. AMD also has numerous developer tools which are optimized for GCN and guess what. They don't perform all that great on nvidia hardware.

Furthermore, if you think AMD hasn't done their fair share of bullshit. You are wrong. Period. I named several examples of them doing AMD specific optimizations with crippled nvidia performance, and there have been numerous AMD GE titles to where nvidia was denied collaboration with developers. You're trying to make it sound like nvidia is some evil company trying to hijack AMD at every turn. I'm about 99% sure that's bullshit. You're also ignoring instances of AMD optimizing for AMD GCN hardware to the detriment of nvidia cards. It's okay for AMD to do it, though, right? Whatever.

But I do find the pity play for AMD to be quite humorous. We'll just pretend AMD is the holiest of companies while nvidia are evil jerks. We'll just forget all the bullshit that AMD has done. We'll just forget about their gross negligence of their customers and their software/drivers. The fault is nvidia's. Right? It isn't AMD's fault. We'll just pretend that.

Mantle is something different but most of you guys don't realize this.

Mantle gets around bottleneck that is in current DX or OpenGL. The Nvida gameworks does not do that.
 

octoberasian

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I don't know if those criticizing read the article, but take this as you will:
AMD attempted to provide Warner Bros. Montreal with code to improve Arkham Origins performance in tessellation, as well as to fix certain multi-GPU problems with the game. The studio turned down both. Is this explicitly the fault of GameWorks? No, but it’s a splendid illustration of how developer bias, combined with unfair treatment, creates a sub-optimal consumer experience.

Under ordinary circumstances, the consumer sees none of this. The typical takeaway from these results would be “Man, AMD builds great hardware, but their driver support sucks.”
And, this is where we get the complaints "AMD driver sucks".

You can't just expect AMD to throw money around at developers "paying"/"bribing" them [the developers] off to optimize the performance of their games.

This is how it should work:
Game developers are responsible for optimizing their own games to work as best as possible REGARDLESS of the hardware running the game regardless of the API used in their games-- DirectX or OpenGL.

Video card manufacturers are responsible for optimizing their hardware drivers to work with a given set of proprietary API that are being utilized inside the game itself REGARDLESS if the API used is DirectX or OpenGL; and, how the hardware driver interprets and runs the [graphics] API used going from software to hardware.

Nowhere should the two intermingle. Drivers support and run the API used and optimize the driver for their hardware that supports the API. Developers support and utilize the API, and optimize the game itself as long as it's using a standard API such as DirectX or OpenGL regardless of the hardware used.​

However, with Nvidia, from what I can understand is this:
They're dictating how DirectX titles are run using the proprietary software tools Nvidia provided to developers-- GameWorks package, and how the game engines use them. Therefore, DirectX titles are optimized for Nvidia hardware and developers are biased towards that using the tools provided. The GameWorks package also includes proprietary APIs such as PhysX and CUDA that only works on Nvidia hardware.

These are tools for developers to use as an all-in-one proprietary package from graphics to physics to compute utilizing DirectX, CUDA, and PhysX. It can only run optimized on Nvidia hardware. Nvidia intends to lock out AMD from accessing the GameWorks package so AMD could optimize their drivers for it.

Game engines using ONLY GameWorks package and software tools will therefore be optimized ONLY for Nvidia hardware. What this results in are possibly reduced performance on non-Nvidia hardware-- AMD or Intel because now neither company has access to the GameWorks libraries. And, do not have access to the game's internal engine to be optimized for their drivers.

That's the issue.​
How exactly is this any worse or more anti-competitive than Mantle? They're both proprietary libraries. The idea that mantle is totally okay because Nvidia can just go ahead and implement it themselves is... ridiculous, to say the least.
The difference here is: AMD's Mantle does nothing to DirectX or OpenGL-based titles, and is a separate graphics API and driver.

AMD is not telling developers to ONLY just use Mantle in their game engines, which is a big difference with Nvidia. Developers are still free to use DirectX or OpenGL or Mantle, Havok or PhysX, etc. in their game engines. DiCE, for example is still providing both DirectX 11 and Mantle support in their game engines such as Frostbite. Oxide is still providing both DirectX 11 and Mantle support in their Nitrous engine.

And, AMD is optimizing their drivers how to run DirectX 11-based titles better, not the other way around-- telling developers to optimize their DirectX 11-based engines to run exclusively on AMD hardware by injecting proprietary code into it. Mantle, even if proprietary to GCN-based AMD hardware, is shifting a lot of the graphics performance to be independent of the processor speed. It is multi-threaded and intends to bring graphics performance as close to video game console titles as possible. If you've seen the Oxide demonstration of the Nitrous engine, performance increases as both the number of processor threads increase and the graphics hardware gets faster-- it's practically scalable.

GameWorks is NOT Mantle. It is still using DirectX, PhysX, and CUDA, and is nowhere near being as close-to-metal of an API like Mantle is. GameWorks is a package of both software and engineers for the optimization and utilization of Nvidia proprietary tools to be used on Nvidia hardware exclusively.

With games like Batman Arkham Origin, the engine it uses is only optimized to use code curtailed for Nvidia hardware regardless if it is using DirectX API. It is also tacking on proprietary APIs optimized only for Nvidia hardware. There is no leeway here to have the developers optimize their game engine regardless of the hardware it's run on.

With AMD, it's an option to use Mantle or not.

With Nvidia, it's use ONLY Gameworks in their game engines that Nvidia sponsors, and Nvidia will optimize their drivers for it, and optimize the game engine for use on non-Nvidia hardware. Nvidia is intermingling with both the game engine itself and telling developers how to run it better on Nvidia hardware, and locking AMD out of it so as to provide developers any optimizations for use on their own hardware.
 

trick0502

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One, the article you posted in the OP is sensationalist and isn't based on reality. Gameworks intent from what I've read isn't to hijack AMD, and no one is forcing a developer to use any of it. It is all based on choice. AMD also has numerous developer tools which are optimized for GCN and guess what. They don't perform all that great on nvidia hardware.

Furthermore, if you think AMD hasn't done their fair share of bullshit. You are wrong. Period. I named several examples of them doing AMD specific optimizations with crippled nvidia performance, and there have been numerous AMD GE titles to where nvidia was denied collaboration with developers. You're trying to make it sound like nvidia is some evil company trying to hijack AMD at every turn. I'm about 99% sure that's bullshit. You're also ignoring instances of AMD optimizing for AMD GCN hardware to the detriment of nvidia cards. It's okay for AMD to do it, though, right? Whatever.

But I do find the pity play for AMD to be quite humorous. We'll just pretend AMD is the holiest of companies while nvidia are evil jerks. We'll just forget all the bullshit that AMD has done. We'll just forget about their gross negligence of their customers and their software/drivers. The fault is nvidia's. Right? It isn't AMD's fault. We'll just pretend that.


I don't think you understand what gameworks is.
 

fanboy

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I have no plans to buy Gameworks or Nvidia products in the upcoming 2014 or later as the overpricing MSRP and the Hardline stance has killed Nvidia for me..
 

PRIME1

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Doesn't shock me, They did the same thing with Crysis 2. I mean hell even the article mentions that.

With AMD putting the pressure on Nvidia, and basically tesla being a flop, I can see Nvidia being desperate.

P.S. Waiting for Prime1 troll post in 3, 2, 1.....

So much irony in that last sentence there.

A BS sensationalist article to fire up the fanboys. Nothing to see here kids.
 

trick0502

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I don't know if those criticizing read the article, but take this as you will:

And, this is where we get the complaints "AMD driver sucks".

You can't just expect AMD to throw money around at developers "paying"/"bribing" them [the developers] off to optimize the performance of their games.

This is how it should work:
Game developers are responsible for optimizing their own games to work as best as possible REGARDLESS of the hardware running the game regardless of the API used in their games-- DirectX or OpenGL.

Video card manufacturers are responsible for optimizing their hardware drivers to work with a given set of proprietary API that are being utilized inside the game itself REGARDLESS if the API used is DirectX or OpenGL; and, how the hardware driver interprets and runs the [graphics] API used going from software to hardware.

Nowhere should the two intermingle. Drivers support and run the API used and optimize the driver for their hardware that supports the API. Developers support and utilize the API, and optimize the game itself as long as it's using a standard API such as DirectX or OpenGL regardless of the hardware used.​

However, with Nvidia, from what I can understand is this:
They're dictating how DirectX titles are run using the proprietary software tools Nvidia provided to developers-- GameWorks package, and how the game engines use them. Therefore, DirectX titles are optimized for Nvidia hardware and developers are biased towards that using the tools provided. The GameWorks package also includes proprietary APIs such as PhysX and CUDA that only works on Nvidia hardware.

These are tools for developers to use as an all-in-one proprietary package from graphics to physics to compute utilizing DirectX, CUDA, and PhysX. It can only run optimized on Nvidia hardware. Nvidia intends to lock out AMD from accessing the GameWorks package so AMD could optimize their drivers for it.

Game engines using ONLY GameWorks package and software tools will therefore be optimized ONLY for Nvidia hardware. What this results in are possibly reduced performance on non-Nvidia hardware-- AMD or Intel because now neither company has access to the GameWorks libraries. And, do not have access to the game's internal engine to be optimized for their drivers.

That's the issue.​

The difference here is: AMD's Mantle does nothing to DirectX or OpenGL-based titles, and is a separate graphics API and driver.

AMD is not telling developers to ONLY just use Mantle in their game engines, which is a big difference with Nvidia. Developers are still free to use DirectX or OpenGL or Mantle, Havok or PhysX, etc. in their game engines. DiCE, for example is still providing both DirectX 11 and Mantle support in their game engines such as Frostbite. Oxide is still providing both DirectX 11 and Mantle support in their Nitrous engine.

And, AMD is optimizing their drivers how to run DirectX 11-based titles better, not the other way around-- telling developers to optimize their DirectX 11-based engines to run exclusively on AMD hardware by injecting proprietary code into it. Mantle, even if proprietary to GCN-based AMD hardware, is shifting a lot of the graphics performance to be independent of the processor speed. It is multi-threaded and intends to bring graphics performance as close to video game console titles as possible. If you've seen the Oxide demonstration of the Nitrous engine, performance increases as both the number of processor threads increase and the graphics hardware gets faster-- it's practically scalable.

GameWorks is NOT Mantle. It is still using DirectX, PhysX, and CUDA, and is nowhere near being as close-to-metal of an API like Mantle is. GameWorks is a package of both software and engineers for the optimization and utilization of Nvidia proprietary tools to be used on Nvidia hardware exclusively.

With games like Batman Arkham Origin, the engine it uses is only optimized to use code curtailed for Nvidia hardware regardless if it is using DirectX API. It is also tacking on proprietary APIs optimized only for Nvidia hardware. There is no leeway here to have the developers optimize their game engine regardless of the hardware it's run on.

With AMD, it's an option to use Mantle or not.

With Nvidia, it's use ONLY Gameworks in their game engines that Nvidia sponsors, and Nvidia will optimize their drivers for it, and optimize the game engine for use on non-Nvidia hardware. Nvidia is intermingling with both the game engine itself and telling developers how to run it better on Nvidia hardware, and locking AMD out of it so as to provide developers any optimizations for use on their own hardware.

I agree with this. I think people are posting with out reading the article. For those who can't handle the long read of et, the cliffs are on wccftech.

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-playing-...-pose-serious-danger-amd-dev-s-power-diluted/
 

KickAssCop

Supreme [H]ardness
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Frankly I don't give a shit. Thus far, there has yet to be a single game that was amd optimized, ran like shit on nVidia and I wanted to play it. Couldn't care less even with mantle unless BF4 starts pushing 200 fps constant on amd cards I am going to be fine for another 6 months with nVidia. We will see if future games require amd hardware due to console ports.
 

PRIME1

2[H]4U
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Messages
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Hopefully this convinces more people to buy NVIDIA cards as they actually have a working optimization program. Go with what works, I always say.
 

Croak

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
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That's like saying "Support Chicago Democrats, they have the most extensive network of bribes, bought votes, and intimidation...go with what works!".
 

PRIME1

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That's like saying "Support Chicago Democrats, they have the most extensive network of bribes, bought votes, and intimidation...go with what works!".

AMD is trying to do the same thing with Mantle. They just can't get it working yet.

Stop with the hypocrisy. It's OK if AMD does it, but so wrong when NVIDIA does it. :rolleyes:

I buy NVIDIA cards because their stuff actually works. Games have more features and run better with less problems.
 

pcjunkie

2[H]4U
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AMD is trying to do the same thing with Mantle. They just can't get it working yet.

Stop with the hypocrisy. It's OK if AMD does it, but so wrong when NVIDIA does it. :rolleyes:

I buy NVIDIA cards because their stuff actually works. Games have more features and run better with less problems.

Nvidia and their fan boys who think this is OK makes me want to switch to console gaming...I'd probably be labeled a AMD fan boy though since Nvidia is shut out of those.

AMD is trying to do the same thing with Mantle. They just can't get it working yet.

Dear lord what an ignorant and misguided statement...:rolleyes:
 

Croak

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
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Didn't say Chicago Republicans (both of them that are still alive) didn't or wouldn't use the same tactics. :)
 
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