Nvidia blocks AMD from optimizing drivers for GameWorks titles.

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So the Nvidia White Knights finally showed up in force, big surprise.

I think AMD should straight pour as much money as possible into paying developers to code their games in such a way that Nvidia cards never get more then 25 FPS. Take out as many loans as is necessary, just do it to every game coming out for the next 2 years, lets see how many cards Nvidia sells then.

I expect the Nvidia White Knights to be fine with this considering how they have reacted to gameworks.
 
NVidia is damage controlling and now is trolling hard because they got dumped by Sony and MS.

What counts is that PS4 and Xbox One are both using AMD gpu's and If you own a gaming PC with AMD gpu then you should not worry one bit.
 
You know it's funny because people cry wolf when one competitor tries to get better performance than another competitor. This is no different than mantle at all. Mantle is a lowlevel API designed to run very well on the GCN architecture (for now), yes they've said it's "open" but they don't declare what exactly that means. Also technically all APIs are open since that's how developers are able to use them in the first place, it doesn't state that NVidia or Intel for that matter wouldn't have to re-implement the entirety of mantle (which is likely the case) CUDA is also a lowlevel API optimized explicity for running parallel code right on the card. If gameworks is using nvidia tools it's quite likely using a fair collection of the CUDA framework as well. However both CUDA and mantle are well below DirectX, and right now directX is a standardized API the other two aren't. This specifically is the problem with having games sponsored by hardware companies that want to get the edge. No API that has been designed to run very low on a specific set of hardware is good for the entire commmunity. Honestly I've long since stop caring about how consumers get ripped off by companies, there's always companies that have their hand in your back pocket and this will never change. I'd just say grab GPUs you want and can afford and play games and have fun.
 
On the one hand JHH is looking down the double barrel 8 ga. bores of Mantle, which from data to hand is looking to provide some serious performance increases, so I suppose he's doing whatever he can, ethics be damned, to try and counter what is coming.

On the other hand if BF4 Mantle shows 20-30% or better performance gains, which at this point appears all but certain, anything shady JHH gets up to isn't going to stop the steamroller.

On a side note it occurs to me Johan's repeatedly stressing the point Mantle is vendor neutral, and will provide most of the gains available to AMD, and that he really really really really really wants to see it opened up to 'other' hardware vendors as quickly as possible, is motivated in part by the performance delta he is seeing with BF4 and will exist on upcoming frostbite games being of such magnitude that developers will swarm to it and AMD motivated to delay for as long as possible making it available to Nvidia and Intel.

There is Maxwell with it's rumored ARM v8 processor, and that will be interesting, but it doesn't really compete with Mantles all vendors, all operating systems, all platforms promise.
 
flak-spammer said:
This is no different than mantle at all. Mantle is a lowlevel API designed to run very well on the GCN architecture (for now), yes they've said it's "open" but they don't declare what exactly that means.
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Johan did by stating the foundation of Mantle is a baseline set of features available to 'nearly all' modern GPUs and those GPUs will be able to achieve most of the performance gains available to AMD.

It was clearly stated AMD purposefully constructed mantle to accommodate other hardware vendors and future architectures. The capability is there and it provides most of the performance benefits, far more than Nvidia and Intel could achieve using DX, the real question is when AMD makes it available to other hardware vendors.
 
joyzbuzz said:
It was clearly stated AMD purposefully constructed mantle to accommodate other hardware vendors and future architectures. The capability is there and it provides most of the performance benefits, far more than Nvidia and Intel could achieve using DX, the real question is when AMD makes it available to other hardware vendors.
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No, the real question is if other hardware vendors would even adopt it, we all know that Nvidia wants to lock consumers into only buying Nvidia with proprietary tech, so adopting mantle doesn't seem like something they would be willing to ever do.
 
darkstarcow said:
I think AMD should straight pour as much money as possible into paying developers to code their games in such a way that Nvidia cards never get more then 25 FPS. Take out as many loans as is necessary, just do it to every game coming out for the next 2 years, lets see how many cards Nvidia sells then.
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If they're smart they will. Considering the contracts and connections they won, they really should capitalize on it now. Make nvidia bleed so they have to start a price war and consumers win.
 
PRIME1 said:
AMD is trying to do the same thing with Mantle. They just can't get it working yet.
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I've heard Mantle is not only working but the performance increase is so insane Johan is desperately trying to get AMD to dial it back before release because JHH is his golfing buddy and the Full Mantle Monty might implode JHH's ego and ruin his golf game.
 
ChaosShadow said:
No, the real question is if other hardware vendors would even adopt it, we all know that Nvidia wants to lock consumers into only buying Nvidia with proprietary tech, so adopting mantle doesn't seem like something they would be willing to ever do.
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Mantle is such a developers and publishers dream come true, solving nearly all their game development problems and fulfilling nearly the entirety of their 'wish list' in one fell swoop, it will have to be ripped from their cold dead code base.

If they see Mantle made available to Nvidia and Nvidia turn it down in an attempt to scuttle Mantle, Nvidia will lose all credibility and any remaining influence with the developers and publishers. Many, like EA, will flat out turn their backs on Nvidia and proceed on with Mantle. The first time Nvidia will see game code is the day it's released to the public - with zero Nvidia optimizations included.
 
I read the ET article and I was hard-pressed to find exactly what the scandal is. If there is anything sour it is with the fact that developers accept payments to favor certain vendors. I don't like that so much but developers are in it for the money and if someone is going to pay them to help make their product, I don't know that I'm in any position to criticize them so much. If it bothers me too much I just don't buy their product.

If NVIDIA is making libraries to improve gaming performance, then that's their capital. I would expect AMD to turn around and do likewise and provide similar libraries for developers too, rather than immediately pulling out the victim card.

As a developer myself I do hate closed-source libraries and other "black boxes" because they're a real PITA to work with. But let's get real here... none of you people complaining really believe in open source and open standards. Nobody believes you.


One of these days I'm going to wake up and find an article from one of these tech sites demanding that Intel open up the x86 architecture and open up licensing for x86. Since the whole world is moving towards integrated CPU / GPU chips and x86 has a monopoly in some key markets, the fact that NVIDIA is legally prohibited from participating is the truest sense of a "competitive disadvantage"... right?

Like I've said before, when Intel opens up x86, then I'll take seriously all these cries for NVIDIA to open up their tech to competitors.
 
I think everyone is upset because NVIDIA already has something like Mantle on the market and working, while AMD fans are left out in the cold.
 
PRIME1 said:
I think everyone is upset because NVIDIA already has something like Mantle on the market and working, while AMD fans are left out in the cold.
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Yeah, it was called GLIDE and NV killed it off after buying out 3DFX...on the market and working over a decade ago! :rolleyes:
 
If Mantle is impressive I'd switch camps for sure as I really only play BF4. I owned a 7970 briefly before my 690 and I had no problems with it. As for those Gameworks games, Nvidia would have to pay me to install them on my computer.
 
pcjunkie said:
Yeah, it was called GLIDE and NV killed it off after buying out 3DFX...on the market and working over a decade ago! :rolleyes:
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The fuck are you talking about? 3DFX going out of business had nothing to do with Nvidia or Glide, and had everything to do with Voodoo 3 being a piece of shit, V5 being MIA, and 3dfx spending way too much money on STB. When they bought STB, that was the nail in the coffin. Which was too bad because 3dfx was awesome early on. 3dfx' demise was solely because they stopped releasing good products. Lack of cash for R+D after buying STB didn't help either. And then after they were done and gone, their IP went up for auction.

Your revisionist history is quite interesting though. I should add, glide wasn't meaningfully faster than DirectX either. It was faster, but only slightly so. Also, if you'll remember, Glide was created when there was no D3D. In fact, the biggest selling point for voodoo cards (the 1 and 2) were not glide or D3D performance, but the mini GL wrapper for GLQuake and Quake 2. Those were, by far, the biggest reasons for 3dfx' early success - because 3dfx hardware ran those games far better than everyone else, and at the time Quake was more or less "THE" PC shooter to get. If you wanted FPS competition, quake/q2 was it. Sort of like COD is now on consoles, except quake / Q2 were actually good games. Something I can't say for COD any longer.

DirectX/D3D didn't come into form until well after the 3d accelerated revolution. That is why glide was created. There was no industry standard directX in a usable form at the time. Once D3D came into form, glide became more and more irrelevant. Which would have been fine had 3dfx continued to make great hardware as they did with V1 and V2 - but they didn't. V3 was average at best. V5? MIA. STB purchase was the nail in the coffin. Like I said, too bad because 3dfx was so great in the early days.
 
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One is an alternate path, that has no effect on the original path.
The other is single path with an artificial slow lane reserved for non Nv gpus.

They are not really comparable. Oh well, it is not like I consider Nv when I am shopping for a new card anyway. The bullshit that went down with artificial driver blocks for SLI on non NV Core 2 chip sets left me kind of sour, but the day they decided I could no longer use my 9800GT for PhysX alongside my 4870, is the last day I considered buying a Nv product.
 
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xoleras said:
The fuck are you talking about? 3DFX going out of business had nothing to do with Nvidia or Glide, and had everything to do with Voodoo 3 being a piece of shit, V5 being MIA, and 3dfx spending way too much money on STB. When they bought STB, that was the nail in the coffin. Which was too bad because 3dfx was awesome early on. 3dfx' demise was solely because they stopped releasing good products. Lack of cash for R+D after buying STB didn't help either. And then after they were done and gone, their IP went up for auction.

Your revisionist history is quite interesting though. I should add, glide wasn't meaningfully faster than DirectX either. It was faster, but only slightly so. Also, if you'll remember, Glide was created when there was no D3D.

DirectX/D3D didn't come into form until well after the 3d accelerated revolution. That is why glide was created. There was no industry standard directX in a usable form at the time.
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WTF....calm down. They are both low level api's and Nvidia could have developed it further. They chose not too for obvious reasons...who care as that was a meaningless response to a meaningless nv fan boy post.

It gets tiring every time Nvidia pulls a stunt like this (seems to happen a lot) and the only response is AMD is no saint either? They are getting desperate as the pc market is all they have left...this is no good for anybody, how can you not see that.
 
heflys20 said:
LOL. It just entertains me to see people's true colors.
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Yeah. What's really entertaining is 1) the article in the OP is not based on truth and is completely sensationalist and 2) AMD GE titles have blocked nvidia from collaborating with developers multiple times.

True colors? Yeah. It's okay for AMD to do this shit, but nvidia is "evil". "jerks". Furthermore, nvidia goes around to developers, holding a gun to their collective heads, and forces them to use gameworks or else. I mean it isn't completely optional or anything. Far from it. That's what i'm getting from this thread. I guess AMD marketing is spreading this bullshit around to deflect from the fact that their software team is basically negligent in adding new features and delivers broken driver after broken driver. Last feature added? MLAA in what...2009 or 2010? Hopefully, someday they can get around to fixing two year outstanding bugs such as CF+EF microstutter, and DX9 microstutter for 79xx and prior cards. That may be asking too much, though, I mean these bugs have only existed 2 years.

Bottom line is, nvidia is evil, AMD are the holiest of companies and can do no wrong, let's all pity AMD here. They're like the fat girl that can't get laid. Maybe she can get pity sex though. Maybe AMD can get pity sales to make up for their 35% dGPU market share.
 
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LOL. You seem to be taking this a bit too seriously. I'm not sure where the bit about AMD, essentially, sucking came from.
 
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jwcalla said:
I read the ET article and I was hard-pressed to find exactly what the scandal is. If there is anything sour it is with the fact that developers accept payments to favor certain vendors. I don't like that so much but developers are in it for the money and if someone is going to pay them to help make their product, I don't know that I'm in any position to criticize them so much.
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Less than peanut crumbs compared to what they stand to realize if this ...

Want to see future version of Mantle supported on all platforms and on all modern GPUs!
‒ Become an active industry standard with IHVs and ISVs collaborating
‒ Enable us developers to innovate with great performance & programmability everywhere

... comes to pass.

This is where a cornucopia of future profits lie. Once the bean counters, executive suite and boardroom grasp this reality, which is in progress, Mantle will become an irresistible force.


One of these days I'm going to wake up and find an article from one of these tech sites demanding that Intel open up the x86 architecture and open up licensing for x86. Since the whole world is moving towards integrated CPU / GPU chips and x86 has a monopoly in some key markets, the fact that NVIDIA is legally prohibited from participating is the truest sense of a "competitive disadvantage"... right?

Like I've said before, when Intel opens up x86, then I'll take seriously all these cries for NVIDIA to open up their tech to competitors.
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I've seen no evidence on the forums or anywhere else of anyone evincing a desire to keep Nvidia from an x86 license. What is the basis for such an assertion?
 
joyzbuzz said:
Less than peanut crumbs compared to what they stand to realize if this ...

Want to see future version of Mantle supported on all platforms and on all modern GPUs!
‒ Become an active industry standard with IHVs and ISVs collaborating
‒ Enable us developers to innovate with great performance & programmability everywhere

... comes to pass.

This is where a cornucopia of future profits lie. Once the bean counters, executive suite and boardroom grasp this reality, which is in progress, Mantle will become an irresistible force.
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Are you the pohzzer guy under a different account?

I don't take these marketing slides too seriously. Ohh yeah, developers were just begging for an API that wasn't run by a single company -- something open and driven by the community where everyone could participate and make changes off-the-cuff with rapid progression. Something that could go cross platform and not be tied down to any vendor or any one company. Yeah, sure. But where the rubber met the road, it was only Carmack showing up with OpenGL titles. Every other developer was riding Direct3D.

But yeah those slides make for great PR material.
 
I'm sure I'm not the only one that has some involvement in the world of business but this is how competition is, has been & always will be. We may not like it but both companies are in it to screw the other one as hard as the possibly can. In this case, Nvidia just has the bigger dick. We don't need evidence, sources, or proof of anything. We often demand it just to prove to another individual that our statement is more valid than theirs. In the end it's pointless since we all know they are competitors. They are going to one up each other as much as they can. I've done it to people that stood in my way in my career & I have had it done to me.

I would not be surprised if all of the allegations being listed here by numerous people turn out to be true. In the computer world, they are two of the most dirtiest companies. At least it's fun to see people bicker on which company is the bigger assclap! :D
 
jwcalla said:
Are you the pohzzer guy under a different account?
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I had the same question. I frequent 2-3 tech forums (mostly here and OCN) and they all have multiple newly registered accounts with ALL of them talking up the same points about Mantle. Including this guy. Who has multiple accounts because his language is similar across all his posts. As if we're so dense that we can't recognize what's going on with newly registered accounts. I'm sure they will all disappear in 2-3 weeks as well. Anandtech is by far the worst. That place is like the new AMD Zone.

I actually don't have an issue with Mantle. I hope it does really well. It would be great for competition. But these poor pity me AMD threads where AMD is some victim of intel and nvidia :rolleyes:,....nauseating. Their market share deficit in dGPUs is their own doing due to their grossly negligent software/drivers over the years. Yes, they've improved. Still not anywhere close to where they need to be. But these pity threads would lead one to believe it's nvidia's fault which is ironic because AMD has more or less locked NV out from multiple titles. Latest of which was tomb raider during development. Yet it's okay for AMD to do that! Pretty funny.....World's smallest violin and such.
 
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xoleras said:
I had the same question. I frequent 2-3 tech forums (mostly here and OCN) and they all have multiple newly registered accounts with ALL of them talking up the same points about Mantle. Including this guy. Who has multiple accounts because his language is similar across all his posts. As if we're so dense that we can't recognize what's going on with newly registered accounts. I'm sure they will all disappear in 2-3 weeks as well. Anandtech is by far the worst. That place is like the new AMD Zone.

I actually don't have an issue with Mantle. I hope it does really well. It would be great for competition. But these poor pity me AMD threads where AMD is some victim of intel and nvidia :rolleyes:,....nauseating. Their market share deficit in dGPUs is their own doing due to their grossly negligent software/drivers over the years. Yes, they've improved. Still not anywhere close to where they need to be. But these pity threads would lead one to believe it's nvidia's fault which is ironic because AMD has more or less locked NV out from multiple titles. Latest of which was tomb raider during development. Yet it's okay for AMD to do that! Pretty funny.....World's smallest violin and such.
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differnece is AMD allowed NVidia to use Tressfx. Just like AMD will allow Nvidia to optimized for Mantle.

Nvidia will not allow AMD To optimize for Gamework games or physx games. Totally different what Nvidia is doing.
 
PRIME1 said:
I think everyone is upset because NVIDIA already has something like Mantle on the market and working, while AMD fans are left out in the cold.
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Do you understand what mantle is?

Mantle is a separate low level API for a game to render in.

Gameworks is just dx11 library's optimized to run on nvidia hardware.

Nvidia has no "mantle". Gameworks is just plain old dx11.

Mantle games will still have dx11 paths for nvidia hardware. Amd isn't shutting nvidia out of mantle games.

Gameworks on the other hand is shutting amd out. Those library's are not available for amd to optimize their drivers. In fact the game developers can't even modify those library's.
 
trick0502 said:
Do you understand what mantle is?

Mantle is a separate low level API for a game to render in.

Gameworks is just dx11 library's optimized to run on nvidia hardware.

Nvidia has no "mantle". Gameworks is just plain old dx11.

Mantle games will still have dx11 paths for nvidia hardware. Amd isn't shutting nvidia out of mantle games.

Gameworks on the other hand is shutting amd out. Those library's are not available for amd to optimize their drivers. In fact the game developers can't even modify those library's.
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He does not want to know what mantle is, or accept there is a difference. Brand loyalty can be willfully blind at times.

To be honest, this is another thing that will only work for games Nv throws money at. If devs catch a bad rep for taking the money and using Nv's black box solution to the detriment of people with AMD cards, it is their sales that will suffer as people with the "wrong" gpu will just stop buying their games.
 
Wildace said:
no one, nvidia is free to optimize for mantle if they choose.
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They don't have to. They can just optimize for dx11 like they would with any other game. Afaik all mantle games will still have dx11 paths.
 
trick0502 said:
Mantle games will still have dx11 paths for nvidia hardware. Amd isn't shutting nvidia out of mantle games.
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AMD is not being "shut out" of any games. Stop making shit up.


People keep coming up with these conspiracy theories as to why AMD is slow in so many games.
 
PRIME1 said:
AMD is not being "shut out" of any games. Stop making shit up.


People keep coming up with these conspiracy theories as to why AMD is slow in so many games.
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You're right, amd isn't being shut out. Amd isn't allowed to optimize drivers for gameworks games.

"In Nvidia’s GameWorks program, though, all the libraries are closed. You can see the files in games like Arkham City or Assassin’s Creed IV — the file names start with the GFSDK prefix. However, developers can’t see into those libraries to analyze or optimize the shader code. Since developers can’t see into the libraries, AMD can’t see into them either — and that makes it nearly impossible to optimize driver code."

ET
 
PRIME1 said:
People keep coming up with these conspiracy theories as to why AMD is slow in so many games.
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To be fair, I wouldn't say AMD is slow. That's stretching the truth a little bit. Their new parts are competitive performance wise, although I would argue outside of performance - the intangible factors are better on NV. Software features, timeliness of driver fixes, mGPU surround support (AMD still haven't fixed DX9 or EF CF microstutter on 79xx and prior cards for TWO YEARS), acoustics, efficiency, etc etc etc. NV is just better by a mile there. Especially Nvidia's mobile kepler GPUs. They are miles better than what AMD has right now. My opinion, i'm sure people will disagree.

I really have a big issue with this AMD = victim mindset. Every day people post bullshit about how intel cheats AMD with compiler tricks. And of course the loyal AMD fans always think nvidia is being underhanded with developers.

The bottom line is, the pity for AMD card is pathetic. These are corporations that are competing with one another and they both try to one up each other through various means. And yes, AMD GE titles prohibits developers from interacting with NV. I remember when Tomb Raider was released, Manual_G at the nvidia forums posted exactly that. Neither of these companies are saints. Anyone trying to blame AMD's woes on nvidia is full of shit. Like I said. Nvidia has a commanding discrete GPU ( market share lead (65 vs 35%) because they've typically had better and more complete products. Just IMHO. 290/X is competitive in terms of performance, but in non performance areas? Not so much. This is partially why AMD is never seen as a viable alternative unless their part is significantly cheaper. Because the intangible metrics are just worse on AMD every generation - so the 290X is a great card in aftermarket form if the price is right. But they can't charge the same as nvidia charges. Maybe Mantle can be a dynamic that changes that. We'll see. I really do hope Mantle does well for the sake of competition.

In the meantime, people just need to shut the fuck up with this oh pity me poor AMD bullshit. Like I said. Nauseating.
 
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A large number of games ship with pre-compiled shaders ('blobs'). These aren't impediments to driver-level optimization.

Does NVIDIA have nefarious intentions here? Maybe. Is what they're doing 'blocking' AMD from doing any driver-level optimization? No.
 
wonderfield said:
A large number of games ship with pre-compiled shaders ('blobs'). These aren't impediments to driver-level optimization.

Does NVIDIA have nefarious intentions here? Maybe. Is what they're doing 'blocking' AMD from doing any driver-level optimization? No.
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Isn't it kind of hard to optimize for code that you can't see?
 
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