Nvidia blocks AMD from optimizing drivers for GameWorks titles.

[jwcalla]

Name the features AMD is with holding from Nvidia?

There are no AMD features. The company has been phoning it in for years now. It's part of the corporate culture over there. It's even more obvious when looking at what comes from the CPU division. The attitude goes all the way to the top. Have you ever worked for a big company that's just phoning it in? Believe me, you know it when you see it. No hate... I used to buy AMD when they were aggressive, took risks, and were beating Intel at their own game. That was a different company.


We all know what the deal is: Radeons for mining, Geforce for gaming. That's pretty much the GPU rule for contemporary times.

But some of the posters here seem to think NVIDIA should water down its efforts to meet the mediocrity of AMD... because that is somehow supposed to help consumers.

 

[PRIME1]

Yes it is different, regardless of your wishes otherwise. Mantle is an API that is seeking for wider adoption. By wider adoption, AMD wants groups like Nvidia and Intel to adopt it. These are just closed libraries with Nvidia's intellectual property stickers on it that prevent anyone from messing with them.

That's a total crock of shit. One day if Mantle ever does actually show up, IT WILL ONLY BE SUPPORTED ON AMD. They already said it only works on the GCN architecture.

MANTLE IS PROPRIETARY

Hell it doesn't even work on their crappy consoles.

You know it's crap when people have to spread so much misinformation about it.

 

[jwcalla]

Yes it is different, regardless of your wishes otherwise. Mantle is an API that is seeking for wider adoption. By wider adoption, AMD wants groups like Nvidia and Intel to adopt it. These are just closed libraries with Nvidia's intellectual property stickers on it that prevent anyone from messing with them.

If AMD wanted NVIDIA and Intel to adopt Mantle, they probably would have collaborated with them on development from day one, rather than doing it in secret and explicitly tying it to GCN 2.0 architecture.

Do you believe every bullet you read on a PR slide?

I have a hard time believing that people here are as naive as they present themselves. There has to be some kind of Apple-like reality-warp going on.

 

[trick0502]

silly fools, one that blocks DX optimizations is the guilty one.

mantle is AMD's API, you cant get mad on that, each company has rights to make their own API.

difference here is that DX is one and for all, but Nvidia is paying company to block DX optimizations for AMD, and that is flat out wrong.

Nvidia fans, stop acting dumb.

There is a big difference between paying for more support for optimizations like we had and paying to block optimizations permanently.

This is a great post. DX is a standard that nvidia is trying to close with their gameworks. If nvidia made nv-mantle I would see no problem with that.

You really can't compare mantle and gameworks. They are two totally different things.

 

[TroyX]

We all know what the deal is: Radeons for mining, Geforce for gaming. That's pretty much the GPU rule for contemporary times..

trolling much?

I don't see any Nvidia products in any of the new game consoles.

AMD gpu's on PC will be fine, cant say the same for Nvidia gpu's since game engines will have to be changed in order to run correctly because all three new consoles are running on AMD gpu's.

With or without Mantle, PC's with AMD GPU's will run games without any issues because new consoles are using AMD.

Nvidia is just mad that they missed out on contracts from MS, Sony and Nintendo.

 

[jwcalla]

The idea that nvidia is "closing DirectX" is hilarious. It's amazing how powerful the victimhood mentality can be; it completely overwhelms rational thinking.

 

[trick0502]

That's a total crock of shit. One day if Mantle ever does actually show up, IT WILL ONLY BE SUPPORTED ON AMD. They already said it only works on the GCN architecture.

MANTLE IS PROPRIETARY

Hell it doesn't even work on their crappy consoles.

You know it's crap when people have to spread so much misinformation about it.

I will agree mantle is proprietary, even though amd claims it is "open". But it is also their own API that they created. Nvidia card can still run mantle games in dx and optimize their drivers for dx. Amd is in no way stopping nvidia from doing that.

Did nvidia create dx? No, but they are trying to make it proprietary with gameworks. Do you see the difference there?

 

[trick0502]

The idea that nvidia is "closing DirectX" is hilarious. It's amazing how powerful the victimhood mentality can be; it completely overwhelms rational thinking.

Not letting anyone (game devs, amd, intel) look into their library's isn't "closing" dx at all?

 

[jwcalla]

I don't see Nvidia products in any of new game consoles.

Of course not... they had no x86 license and couldn't make a CPU+GPU design anywhere nearly as cheap as AMD could in its desperation.

AMD gpu's on PC will be fine, cant say the same for Nvidia gpu's since game engines will have to be changed in order to run correctly because all three new consoles are running with AMD gpu's.

Ahh, so we're switching gears now from, "AMD is hopelessly being excluded because of meaniehead NVIDIA's anti-competitive unethical business practices" to "NVIDIA is doomed and doesn't have a chance because AMD has a market monopoly on the consoles, and this is a saintly thing."


Ohh well. The future (~5 yrs) of living room gaming is going to be on Linux-based PCs anyway. I'm sure NVIDIA's efforts in these areas will be harshly criticized as unfair and anti-competitive.

 

[TroyX]

This is a great post. DX is a standard that nvidia is trying to close with their gameworks. If nvidia made nv-mantle I would see no problem with that.

You really can't compare mantle and gameworks. They are two totally different things.

they can block optimizations all they want, it's not going to work because all game engines will be AMD based, so what is there to block?

last gen we had ps3 using NVidia and Xbox360 using AMD, so it was a win win situation for both parties.

but not this time and this is why NVidia is so upset and have to spend millions just to stay in the game.

 

[xoleras]

Nvidia is just mad that they missed out on contracts from MS, Sony and Nintendo.

Yep, life is rough for nvidia with their commanding discrete GPU market share lead of 65% vs 35%. They're so mad right now that they missed out on the low margin pennies per machine royalties.

Anyway, the next gen consoles are all playing games at 720p and 900p using inferior image quality in comparison to the PC. Bf4 on the PS4 is 900p and plays at 30-45 fps in 64 player MP. BF4 on the XB1 is 720p upscaled. If that's your "bar" for next generation consoles and ports, I do feel bad for you. How is this supposed to help PC development, exactly? Please explain this. The next generation consoles are woefully inadequate compared to a modern PC and already next gen console games are playing at lower than 1080p resolutions with lower image quality to boot. This helps PC development, how? The PS4 and XB1 are also using their own hardware specific, proprietary APIs which have nothing to do with Mantle. So this combined with the above makes me question how this helps PC development at all. Fact of the matter is, the xbox 360 and PS3 were amazing machines at launch. Heck, the 360 had a faster GPU than the PC when it was launched in 2005. This is not the case with PS4 and XB1 - both of these machines are far worse than modern PC's so I cannot fathom how they can possibly help the situation with PC development.

Another fun fact. The most widely used multi platform engine is unreal engine 3, and the same will be true for UE4. It will be used in over 70% of multi platform games - and all UE games generally perform much better on nvidia hardware rather than AMD hardware. Tim Sweeney, the creator, also expressed outright hostility towards the idea of Mantle. Just throwing that out there. Because if UE4 is as widely used as UE3 was, I don't think the situation is all that rosy for AMD with console ports. Because Unreal Engine 3 has always favored nvidia's architecture, and UE4 will as well.

 

[jwcalla]

Not letting anyone (game devs, amd, intel) look into their library's isn't "closing" dx at all?

No, it's not. Not at all. Firstly because the libraries don't compose the DX standard but are merely an implementation of it. Just like all other closed-source middleware that nobody else here has a problem with.

Second because use of those libraries is strictly voluntary for game developers. And AMD is free to make their own implementations if they wish.

It's funny how people have no problem with MS actually making D3D a closed, proprietary, non-licensable graphics API, but something like this gets them all spun up.

 

[TroyX]

Yep, life is rough for nvidia with their commanding discrete GPU market share lead of 65% vs 35%. They're so mad right now that they missed out on the low margin pennies per machine royalties.

Anyway, the next gen consoles are all playing games at 720p and 900p using inferior image quality in comparison to the PC. Bf4 on the PS4 is 900p and plays at 30-45 fps in 64 player MP. BF4 on the XB1 is 720p upscaled. If that's your "bar" for next generation consoles and ports, I do feel bad for you. How is this supposed to help PC development, exactly? Please explain this. The next generation consoles are woefully inadequate compared to a modern PC and already next gen console games are playing at lower than 1080p resolutions with lower image quality to boot. This helps PC development, how?

And you say that garbage is supposed to help PC development. Nonsense. The PS4 and XB1 are using their own hardware specific, proprietary APIs which have nothing to do with Mantle.

resolution, detail and fps doesn't concern me at all, its always been like that from $300-$500 consoles, you cant go against expensive PC machines.

what counts is that console games have finally moved to DX11+ platform, and that will help PC development in upcoming years, we still haven't seen anything what DX11+ truly offers since all previous games were build under DX9 due to ps3 and xbox 360.

but for some reason, you changing subjects here.

ohh and btw, if you think NVidia doesn't care that AMD won new console contracts then you need to get reality check and did you play Killzone SF on PS4? it is 1080p with very good frame rate and it looks nice, not bad for a launch game, ha?

 

[xoleras]

ohh and btw, if you think NVidia doesn't care that AMD won new console contracts then you need to get reality check.

Why would they care? Nvidia has better performance than AMD in the most widely used multiplatform engine (unreal engine) and I don't think nvidia cares all too much for pennies per machine royalties. Unreal Engine 4 presumbly will maintain nvidia's performance lead over AMD, and it will once again be the most widely used multiplatform engine for both consoles and PCs.

Anyway - back to the console argument. With prior consoles, the margins were so slim that it wasn't really worth it from a R+D perspective. I don't know if that changed with PS4 or XB1 but I highly doubt it. If you have a source with specific figures for royalties (PS4 and XB1), that would help. Yet the point remains that prior generation consoles were not very profitable, thus nvidia wouldn't have a reason to care. Maybe royalties dramatically changed this time around. I doubt it though.

 

[TroyX]

Why would they care? Nvidia has better performance than AMD in the most widely used multiplatform engine (unreal engine) and I don't think nvidia cares all too much for pennies per machine royalties. With prior consoles, the margins were so slim that it wasn't really worth it from a R+D perspective.

I don't know if that changed with PS4 or XB1 but I highly doubt it. If you have a source with specific figures for royalties (PS4 and XB1), that would help. Yet the point remains that prior generation consoles were not very profitable, thus nvidia wouldn't have a reason to care.

not having NVidia in PS4 and Xbox One is what bothers them more than if they were losing money, lol.

stop the damage control kid, its not all about money sometimes.

but since you're all about money then you should know that Nvidia will have to pay a lot of money from their pocket to pay for optimizations, drivers, etc, since every game will be coded for AMD hardware first.

 

[jwcalla]

what counts is that console games have finally moved to DX11+ platform, and that will help PC development in upcoming years, we still haven't seen anything what DX11+ truly offers since all previous games were build under DX9 due to ps3 and xbox 360.

PS4 / PS3 don't even use Direct3D. I'm not seeing the correlation here.

 

[wonderfield]

It was nice when there were 5 players in the GPU market when this battle first begun. Were down to 2 of them now.

They were terrible times for developers, particularly early on, before Direct3D and OpenGL ubiquity. As I see it, they weren't particularly great times for consumers either: driver quality tended to be awful, and issues and incompatibilities were commonplace. Things glide a good deal smoother today, no pun intended.

And you're mistaken about this being a two-horse race: Intel actually does well in the low-end. The Iris Pro is a pretty poignant solution, especially compared to typical mobile GPU offerings.

And they made an open standard that anyone can license and use: GPU vendors included.

Mantle isn't an open standard. Like Direct3D, it's neither open nor a standard. It's a proprietary API that AMD has claimed will allow for implementations on non-AMD hardware.

Amd has no option to optimize any game that is gameworks.

That simply is not true.

 

[xoleras]

stop the damage control kid, its not all about money sometimes.

In the corporate world, as a publicly traded company, i'm afraid it is always about the money. These companies don't exist for the good of mankind, they exist because they have a duty to earn money for their shareholders. Not sure why you would say otherwise. If a console venture isn't meaningfully profitable, there is no reason to pursue it. Period.

Although AMD's sleazy viral marketing would have you think that they exist for the good of mankind. AMD's viral marketers would have you think that their market position in CPUs and GPUs is solely because they're the victim, and they're the "good guys". And they would have you think that they're behind intel merely because of compiler cheats. They're behind nvidia because nvidia is "evil". Whatever. Excuse me while I roll my eyes.

Like I said, if you have any specific royalty figures for the PS4 or XB1 per machine - that would be welcomed. What we do know is that *every* prior console has not been meaningfully profitable for either company. So the point remains. If the profit isn't meaningful, why would nvidia care? Pride is a non issue in the corporate world, what is an issue is earning money for shareholders. That's the bottom line.

 

[jwcalla]

stop the damage control kid, its not all about money sometimes.

I guess that explains why AMD is hemorrhaging it and selling off their corporate headquarters to try to pay their bills. But hey, they're in the consoles and they have nice Dogecoin miners!

 

[TroyX]

lol at this failed place.

it is projected that between ps4, xbox one, and wii u, at least 250 million units will be sold after ten years.

I just read that AMD will be making between $20-30 per console sold.

do the math and then let me know if NVidia is looking at that total like its peanuts.

GTFO.

 

[xoleras]

20-30$ per console eh? That's a pretty large margin of error, where did you read that at. Reddit? Show us proof.

citation required

Look, maybe the next-gen consoles will help AMD's position. I don't know, but I doubt it. Yet, what we know is that most of those games are playing 720p-900p and are using IQ settings far worse than a modern PC would. And they are not using Mantle. How do the next generation consoles correlate with Mantle at all? They don't. With that being the case, it seems curious that those games are supposed to help PC development. This is aside from the fact that the most commonly used engine for both consoles and the PC, UE3/UE4, are generally better performing on the nvidia side by a pretty sizable gap in a lot of games. Furthermore, if AMD is making tons of profit from the next-gen consoles, the burden or proof is on you. Do you have a citation from an actual credible source on this?

I still take exception to the vicimized mindset that AMD fans tend to take. It's rather silly. Square games always perform better on AMD hardware than nvidia hardware, because nvidia is locked out during development and cannot collaborate, and all of these titles are AMD GE. At launch they always favor AMD in terms of performance. Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider, I could go on here. These games heavily favor AMD, especially at launch due to NV being locked out from collaborating with Square. Yet does nvidia take to viral marketing to play the victim? To whine and cry about it? No, their software team works over time to ensure that their customers get a good experience despite the fact that they were locked out during development.

There's a pretty big difference in what these companies do. AMD seems to play victim and whine (with many fans doing the same), while nvidia works overtime to deliver a good experience for their customers.

 

[Venomous]

Yep, life is rough for nvidia with their commanding discrete GPU market share lead of 65% vs 35%. They're so mad right now that they missed out on the low margin pennies per machine royalties.

Anyway, the next gen consoles are all playing games at 720p and 900p using inferior image quality in comparison to the PC. Bf4 on the PS4 is 900p and plays at 30-45 fps in 64 player MP. BF4 on the XB1 is 720p upscaled. If that's your "bar" for next generation consoles and ports, I do feel bad for you. How is this supposed to help PC development, exactly? Please explain this. The next generation consoles are woefully inadequate compared to a modern PC and already next gen console games are playing at lower than 1080p resolutions with lower image quality to boot. This helps PC development, how? The PS4 and XB1 are also using their own hardware specific, proprietary APIs which have nothing to do with Mantle. So this combined with the above makes me question how this helps PC development at all. Fact of the matter is, the xbox 360 and PS3 were amazing machines at launch. Heck, the 360 had a faster GPU than the PC when it was launched in 2005. This is not the case with PS4 and XB1 - both of these machines are far worse than modern PC's so I cannot fathom how they can possibly help the situation with PC development.

Another fun fact. The most widely used multi platform engine is unreal engine 3, and the same will be true for UE4. It will be used in over 70% of multi platform games - and all UE games generally perform much better on nvidia hardware rather than AMD hardware. Tim Sweeney, the creator, also expressed outright hostility towards the idea of Mantle. Just throwing that out there. Because if UE4 is as widely used as UE3 was, I don't think the situation is all that rosy for AMD with console ports. Because Unreal Engine 3 has always favored nvidia's architecture, and UE4 will as well.

Right fanboi, that's because he and worthless Carmack, whom by the way already touted consoles superior over PC gaming were asked at an Nvidia event on their opinion... Paid off anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH2hjhcfWic

 

[xoleras]

So Carmack, considering he isn't even working on PC or console development - was paid off? Really? Why would he even have a vested interest in this. He is working on Oculus rift and has absolutely nothing to do with either PC or console development at this time.

 

[trick0502]

So Carmack, considering he isn't even working on PC or console development at this time - was paid off? Really? Why would he even have a vested interest in this. He is working on Oculus rift and has absolutely nothing to do with either PC or console development at this time.

It was an nvidia event, I'm sure he was paid to be there.

 

[xoleras]

It was an nvidia event, I'm sure he was paid to be there.

Maybe in terms of travel arrangements. Then again Carmack is a multi millionaire. I don't know, you could be right. Although Carmack still has no vested interest in either console or PC development, know what i'm saying?I just can't see why he would do that. He's supposed to be a leadership figure, and he already has his millions.

I could see his travel arrangements being paid for, though. In any case, we just won't ever know either way.

 

[Venomous]

So Carmack, considering he isn't even working on PC or console development - was paid off? Really? Why would he even have a vested interest in this. He is working on Oculus rift and has absolutely nothing to do with either PC or console development at this time.

Ask your parents to buy you a subscription to "Real Life" because you're just naive if you think those 3 weren't paid to be there... You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[xoleras]

No, I prefer the AMD subscription to "conspiracy theories" and think that every instance of AMD being perceived as worse than the competition is due to nefarious reasons. Their position is due to intel and nvidia being nefarious. As always. /rolls eyes

Anyway, we won't ever have a way of knowing the truth. Carmack is already filthy rich. And has no vested interest in PC or console development.

But, we could subscribe to the AMD conspiracy theory that Carmack was paid millions merely to show up. We know that Carmack can't have valid opinions about G-sync. Nah. That can't be the case. Once again, AMD is the victim of nefarious intent, it's a never ending cycle. Intel, nvidia, Carmack, you name it - they're all out to get AMD.

 

[Spazturtle]

I don't understand how anyone is supporting NVIDIA here.

Instead of making their own products faster they are making sure games run slower on their competitions hardware.

How does that benefit anyone?

 

[Venomous]

Maybe in terms of travel arrangements. Then again Carmack is a multi millionaire. I don't know, you could be right. Although Carmack still has no vested interest in either console or PC development, know what i'm saying?I just can't see why he would do that. He's supposed to be a leadership figure, and he already has his millions.

I could see his travel arrangements being paid for, though. In any case, we just won't ever know either way.

People don't become multi millionaires for going to sponsored events for free...

 

[Venomous]

No, I prefer the AMD subscription to "conspiracy theories" and think that every instance of AMD being perceived as worse than the competition is due to nefarious reasons. Their position is due to intel and nvidia being nefarious. As always. /rolls eyes

Anyway, we won't ever have a way of knowing the truth. Carmack is already filthy rich. And has no vested interest in PC or console development. Maybe you're correct, but I doubt it. We will never know either way.

Ok kid... You would be singing the blues if NV was the only choice... Stagnant technology and absurd prices would lock you out from owning anything decent... NV has already been practicing raping it's loyalist with overpricing their hardware but youre just too young and naive to understand the real world.

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

I don't understand how anyone is supporting NVIDIA here.

Instead of making their own products faster they are making sure games run slower on their competitions hardware.

How does that benefit anyone?

Probably people that are one of three things
1: Paid by nV
2: took the green pill(fanboys)
3: naive or ignorant (which can also apply to option 2)

I don't see any other logical explanation

 

[xoleras]

Ok kid... You would be singing the blues if NV was the only choice... Stagnant technology and absurd prices would lock you out from owning anything decent... NV has already been practicing raping it's loyalist with overpricing their hardware but youre just too young and naive to understand the real world.

Just to be clear, i'm glad that AMD is around. I hope Mantle does well.

The only exception I have is their sleazy marketing which portrays them as the "victim" in situations like this when they SHOULD be taking the deer by the reins. The pity card is just pathetic. The idea that every time their product is worse is because of nefarious reviewers and what-not, that is pathetic. AMD fans seem to perpetuate this as well. All the time I see accusations of biased reviewers, biased websites, paid off websites, paid off developers And this is also done by their viral marketing, oddly enough.

The current AMD is not the one that existed with the introduction of Athlon. They beat intel at their own game back then, and they didn't make excuses, play victim, or use viral marketing to spread bullshit everywhere. They just hands down delivered the better performing product with no excuses.

I want the old AMD back. The AMD that had balls. That took charge of the situation instead of looking to the pity card. The one that delivered without compromises. Someone bring THAT AMD back please.

 

[TroyX]

I don't understand how anyone is supporting NVIDIA here.

Instead of making their own products faster they are making sure games run slower on their competitions hardware.

How does that benefit anyone?

they wont make their products run faster, NVidia will have to invest a lot of money just to run normal perf due to all games being developed on AMD hardware first due to new consoles.

games will not run slower on AMD regardless of all these threats from NVidia.

Devs are not going to build game engines on PC with NVidia GPU and then port it to consoles, lol.

 

[Venomous]

Just to be clear, i'm glad that AMD is around. I hope Mantle does well.

The only exception I have is their sleazy marketing which portrays them as the "victim" in situations like this when they SHOULD be taking the deer by the reins. The pity card is just pathetic. The idea that every time their product is worse is because of nefarious reviewers and what-not, that is pathetic. AMD fans seem to perpetuate this as well. All the time I see accusations of biased reviewers, biased websites, paid off websites, paid off developers And this is also done by their viral marketing, oddly enough.

The current AMD is not the one that existed with the introduction of Athlon. They beat intel at their own game back then, and they didn't make excuses, play victim, or use viral marketing to spread bullshit everywhere. They just hands down delivered the better performing product with no excuses.

I want the old AMD back. The AMD that had balls. That took charge of the situation instead of looking to the pity card. The one that delivered without compromises. Someone bring THAT AMD back please.

AMD was a power house under Jerry Sanders... Acquiring ATI pretty much pushed them back 10 yrs on x86 forefront due to the mess of merging and the state ATI was in. However they did learn the value of acquiring ATI and it's starting to pay off for them by merging both together.

I wouldn't be too quick to count AMD as a non competitor... Nvidia is the one that needs to start being concerned. WE need to be concerned that too many people are playing into this bullshit because were going to be the ones to suffer.

I really wish Intel would enter the 3D graphics world on a serious level, just to rattle it. We need it...

 

[jwcalla]

Instead of making their own products faster they are making sure games run slower on their competitions hardware.

Except the actual reality is 180 degrees opposite of what you just said.

People don't become multi millionaires for going to sponsored events for free...

Good point. Carmack made his millions by attending NVIDIA PR events.

 

[TroyX]

AMD was a power house under Jerry Sanders... Acquiring ATI pretty much pushed them back 10 yrs on x86 forefront due to the mess of merging and the state ATI was in. However they did learn the value of acquiring ATI and it's starting to pay off for them by merging both together.

I wouldn't be too quick to count AMD as a non competitor... Nvidia is the one that needs to start being concerned. WE need to be concerned that too many people are playing into this bullshit because were going to be the ones to suffer.

I really wish Intel would enter the 3D graphics world on a serious level, just to rattle it. We need it...

the future is to merge cpu/gpu/memory as one, similar to PS4 design.

Intel and NVidia are going to do what all other giant companies do to stay alive, and that is to pour a lot of cash to keep the tech in stand still and by holding back the software in their favor.

this will make the companies who are moving forward have no effect, I know, its ugly.

So you are right, If intel doesn't get into high-end 3d graphics stuff we wont see anything new, and I don't see NVidia getting into CPU business.

 

[jwcalla]

I really wish Intel would enter the 3D graphics world on a serious level, just to rattle it. We need it...

So you want to give more leverage to the company that has the greatest chance of achieving the most unfair advantage?

Intel already dominates GPU shipments and usage.

 

[TroyX]

So you want to give more leverage to the company that has the greatest chance of achieving the most unfair advantage?

Intel already dominates GPU shipments and usage.

he said serious level of 3d, like high end stuff.

I can care less who takes my money, as long we move forward.

 

[Vildayyan2003]

I really wish Intel would enter the 3D graphics world on a serious level, just to rattle it. We need it...

They would simply buy NVidia in order to enter the hardcore gaming market and I don't think any of the PC enthusiasts want that. Intel would simply crush AMD, we don't want that.

 

[xoleras]

AMD was a power house under Jerry Sanders... Acquiring ATI pretty much pushed them back 10 yrs on x86 forefront due to the mess of merging and the state ATI was in. However they did learn the value of acquiring ATI and it's starting to pay off for them by merging both together.

AMD's mistake was paying too much for ATI. But it was the right move - their position today would far worse had they not acquired ATI. It was a necessary and smart move. That said, the real problem was money mis-management by Hector Ruiz. He basically embezzled millions from the company which denied them from any meaningful R+D for a long period of time. And without R+D, you cannot create meaningful products. This led to AMD being in a rut in terms of CPU development for many years, or perhaps even still. I would argue that this was the real setback for AMD. Is it recoverable? Maybe.

Like I said. My problem is with the "victimized" mindset primarily. I don't agree with it - AMD aren't saints, just like intel and nvidia aren't saints; all of these companies exist to earn money for their shareholders. AMD's marketing would have you think that they're the good guys. Mantle is "open". The truth is Mantle isn't "open" in the sense that anyone can use it, as it requires GCN architecture. Oddly enough, only AMD has this GCN architecture. So is nvidia going to develop their next generation GPU according to AMD's specification? No. Hell no. Of course not. That's like saying physx is "open". As long as you're using Kepler architecture. Give me a break.

So to summarize. Their hardware is fine. The 290 and 290X cards in aftermarket form are great if they're priced right. The performance of these cards is great and where it needs to be. Their software needs work, still. Lastly, AMD's marketing which portrays them as the good guys and the victim of intel/nvidia just gets old and annoying. I don't have a problem with AMD or Mantle. I want Mantle to be great. If it is, it will just push competition in the GPU space that much further, which would be a great thing. I just get sick of seeing this mindset over and over and over. Perhaps my reaction to it was overboard. It was in fact, that i'll admit. Seeing this stuff over and over does kinda get old, though.