Navi Rumors v2.0

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XoR_

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From what I can gather, DXR requires support for the DX12_1 feature set called Conservative Rasterization. Pascal has support for Tier 2; Turing, Vega, and Volta has support for Tier 3. This allowed nVidia to create a driver for the Pascal, Turing, and Volta architectures that can handle DXR. nVidia cards with RTX can hardware accelerate the DXR operations allowing for better (note I did not say stellar) performance. Presumably AMD could use the Tier 3 feature set in Vega to enable DXR support; non-hardware accelerated, of course, just like my 1070 so naturally the performance is piss-poor.
Actually RTX performance in ray-tracing very good.
With each ray intersection is handled by not-so-simple shader program and given DXR effects are mostly added on top of existing effects which already stress shaders a lot (or replace much cheaper shader based effects) it is no wonder performance with DXR enabled is worse than with it disabled. This will never change!

Some of these shaders which are executed with each ray intersection could be made into fixed hardware and with this approach performance would be much better but that would allow far less flexibity and would require even more silicon. DXR is designed to be fully programmable so any effect can be done with it from simple reflections to more elaborate path-tracing implementations and even things which one could hardly call ray-tracing like using RT cores to calculate realistic sound effects, etc.

Of course I would not expect first HW implementation to be most optimal and some tweaks can surely be made to make RT better. More optimizations can be however expected from game developers than from Nvidia or anyone else.
 

Digital Viper-X-

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From what I can gather, DXR requires support for the DX12_1 feature set called Conservative Rasterization. Pascal has support for Tier 2; Turing, Vega, and Volta has support for Tier 3. This allowed nVidia to create a driver for the Pascal, Turing, and Volta architectures that can handle DXR. nVidia cards with RTX can hardware accelerate the DXR operations allowing for better (note I did not say stellar) performance. Presumably AMD could use the Tier 3 feature set in Vega to enable DXR support; non-hardware accelerated, of course, just like my 1070 so naturally the performance is piss-poor.

The point being that my three year old card has support for a feature that was just released without having been designed to do so.
Running something does not equate to handling it :/ a GTX 2070 struggles with RTX, how do you expect the 1070 to fair without dedicated hardware ?

Crytek ran a ray tracing demo on a Vega 56...?
 

XoR_

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Running something does not equate to handling it :/ a GTX 2070 struggles with RTX, how do you expect the 1070 to fair without dedicated hardware ?

Crytek ran a ray tracing demo on a Vega 56...?
RTX 2070 can run RTX games fine, just not in higher resolutions or at very high frame rates.

Crytek implementation is different and more performance-clever and will also support DXR acceleration in the future.
DXR is just DX12 API extension and by design it is fully programmable and so you can do whatever with it, even brute force some barely visible effect that immediately halves performance
We will have to wait for really clever implementations... and by then Nvidia will have new chips, AMD will have chips with DXR and even Intel Xe will be out =)
 

defaultluser

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Running something does not equate to handling it :/ a GTX 2070 struggles with RTX, how do you expect the 1070 to fair without dedicated hardware ?

Crytek ran a ray tracing demo on a Vega 56...?

That gimmicky demo only ran at 1080p 30fps, and as XoR_ already noted, it cuts some quality to make that performance level.

GTX graphics adapters in the same performance range as the Vega 56 (GTX 1070 ti) can hit between 10 and 25fps at 1080p running the demos provided by Nvidia. It's not too much more to jump to 30fps, if you can customize the scene rendered, so cutting a few corners will go completely unnoticed by the viewer.

No, RTX is not required for smooth ray tracing, but it is if you want to play at higher resolutions, or render more than a single effect at a time.
 

Gideon

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RTX 2070 can run RTX games fine, just not in higher resolutions or at very high frame rates.

Crytek implementation is different and more performance-clever and will also support DXR acceleration in the future.
DXR is just DX12 API extension and by design it is fully programmable and so you can do whatever with it, even brute force some barely visible effect that immediately halves performance
We will have to wait for really clever implementations... and by then Nvidia will have new chips, AMD will have chips with DXR and even Intel Xe will be out =)
The way Crytek did it is the way to go for now, were still quite a ways away from true ray tracing performance we need.
 

Digital Viper-X-

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That gimmicky demo only ran at 1080p 30fps, and as XoR_ already noted, it cuts some quality to make that performance level.

GTX graphics adapters in the same performance range as the Vega 56 (GTX 1070 ti) can hit between 10 and 25fps at 1080p running the demos provided by Nvidia. It's not too much more to jump to 30fps, if you can customize the scene rendered, so cutting a few corners will go completely unnoticed by the viewer.

No, RTX is not required for smooth ray tracing, but it is if you want to play at higher resolutions, or render more than a single effect at a time.
Not sure what your comment is about, I never stated RTX is required to play smoothly... or that GTX Cards can't run DXR(at the same level, worse or better than AMD)

Someone said their GTX 1070 can handle DXR, kind of implies, hey I can run this at acceptable fps. which is not the case.

This is HardForum still last I checked, and it's also 2019, pretty sure 1080p has become the minimum in terms of resolution, and smooth gameplay is again a given.
 

Algrim

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Someone said their GTX 1070 can handle DXR, kind of implies, hey I can run this at acceptable fps. which is not the case.
You are ignoring the context for why I stated it could. The person I was replying to said that AMD cards couldn't run DXR because graphics cards are built on a three year cycle and thus could not run DXR because DXR was just released. I was pointing out that my 1070 can handle implementing DXR calls, no matter how shitty, despite being released three years ago. Which, if the poster is correct, means that we're talking about hardware that was being planned SIX FUCKING YEARS AGO.

So before pointing fingers about people not being HARD enough around here, use your thinking skills to realize the point of the conversation.
 

Digital Viper-X-

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You are ignoring the context for why I stated it could. The person I was replying to said that AMD cards couldn't run DXR because graphics cards are built on a three year cycle and thus could not run DXR because DXR was just released. I was pointing out that my 1070 can handle implementing DXR calls, no matter how shitty, despite being released three years ago. Which, if the poster is correct, means that we're talking about hardware that was being planned SIX FUCKING YEARS AGO.

So before pointing fingers about people not being HARD enough around here, use your thinking skills to realize the point of the conversation.
The not hard enough wasn't at you, it was at the post picking mine apart. :)
 

CAD4466HK

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You don't think it's precisely intended to confuse the average Joe? I've criticized Nvidia before for their 1060 naming shenanigans, and I hold the same position for AMD. I was fooled into thinking I got a 1060 with 3GB VRAM, but the card I got was a lesser GPU - and I'm an informed consumer, who stupidly bought the card too fast instead of waiting for reviews, assuming that a 1060 was a 1060. I can see people being equally naive with the proposed Navi names.

This kind of trickery makes me lose respect for both of them, AMD or Nvidia. I've just never seen AMD do this kind of thing (and if I'm missing a historical example, I'm all ears).
AMD did this with the RX 560. The OG 560 had 1024 sp's, than AMD came out with a 892 sp variant and kept the same name. Later they came out with a RX 580 2048SP edition, which was nothing but a RX 570 with higher clocks.


RX-580-Comparison.png
 

Dayaks

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That gimmicky demo only ran at 1080p 30fps, and as XoR_ already noted, it cuts some quality to make that performance level.

GTX graphics adapters in the same performance range as the Vega 56 (GTX 1070 ti) can hit between 10 and 25fps at 1080p running the demos provided by Nvidia. It's not too much more to jump to 30fps, if you can customize the scene rendered, so cutting a few corners will go completely unnoticed by the viewer.

No, RTX is not required for smooth ray tracing, but it is if you want to play at higher resolutions, or render more than a single effect at a time.
Here’s the thing though. Even RT done with settings turned down is wayyy better than the current methods.

Rasterized reflections are usually done at 1/4 or less resolution and a lot of care has to be done with clipping. For some reason we have a hard on for high resolution reflections for RT even though in actual gameplay it’s hard to tell the difference between low and ultra RT. Or lighting, ect.
 

euskalzabe

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AMD did this with the RX 560. The OG 560 had 1024 sp's, than AMD came out with a 892 sp variant and kept the same name. Later they came out with a RX 580 2048SP edition, which was nothing but a RX 570 with higher clocks.
You're absolutely right, I completely forgot about that. So yes, both of them are the worst at this kind of lying. Or extra lipstick on the pig. I have hope they won't go down this same road again with Navi.
 

Pieter3dnow

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You are ignoring the context for why I stated it could. The person I was replying to said that AMD cards couldn't run DXR because graphics cards are built on a three year cycle and thus could not run DXR because DXR was just released. I was pointing out that my 1070 can handle implementing DXR calls, no matter how shitty, despite being released three years ago. Which, if the poster is correct, means that we're talking about hardware that was being planned SIX FUCKING YEARS AGO.

So before pointing fingers about people not being HARD enough around here, use your thinking skills to realize the point of the conversation.
Software DXR hurrah utterly utterly pointless .

All this nonsense in Navi rumour thread.
 
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XoR_

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Zen2 will most likely be the awesome product that will shake PC world even more so than Zen1
Navi on the other hand will be at most "meh" and won't improve anything on AMD GPU market share.
 

Maddness

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Zen2 will most likely be the awesome product that will shake PC world even more so than Zen1
Navi on the other hand will be at most "meh" and won't improve anything on AMD GPU market share.
I have a feeling you'll be right on the money for the first part. I hope you're wrong on the 2nd. AMD really needs a good solid performing gaming card to win some market share.
 

Maddness

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Interesting video. Guy always sounds like he's on some insane energy drink fix. I learnt some interesting things though. It's actually good to listen to someone who isn't biased one way or another explaning hardware. That's what Jim used to be like.
 

euskalzabe

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Oh man, that is one BAD video. If I wanted to see someone draw garbage doodles in MS paint in real-time, I would... oh wait, I don't. Jeez, how about getting your images ready to talk about them in half the video time, like a decent youtuber. No thanks.

That said, it's funny how with only a few days to go, all these rumours are spinning violently in completely different directions. Navi is going to have 8 geometry engines and be super powerful! Navi is going to disappoint with crappy performance, beware! Literally no one has any idea what they're talking about. I'm going to spend the next couple days out in the world, because it'll be much more entertaining than people just babbling for 30 minutes on youtube at a time.
 
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Pieter3dnow

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Oh man, that is one BAD video. If I wanted to see someone draw garbage doodles in MS paint in real-time, I would... oh wait, I don't. Jeez, how about getting your images ready to talk about them in half the video time, like a decent youtuber. No thanks.

That said, it's funny how with only a few days to go, all these rumours are spinning violently in completely different directions. Navi is going to have 8 geometry engines and be super powerful! Navi is going to disappoint with crappy performance, beware! Literally no one has any idea what they're talking about. I'm going to spend the next couple days out in the world, because it'll be much more entertaining than people just babbling for 30 minutes on youtube at a time.
I'm not sure if I would call it a bad video just that the guy can't help himself that is the funny part, to him this all makes sense ;) .
In his enthusiasm he wants to explain things :) . He has no idea that what he does is extremely distracting towards what he wants to explain :) .

Yep, headless chicken season :). Rumours are so weird as well. My guess is that at Computex they won't even talk about Navi because it might be to distracting from the message on how Zen 2 is the best thing since sliced bread :) .
 

Snowdog

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Oh man, that is one BAD video. If I wanted to see someone draw garbage doodles in MS paint in real-time, I would... oh wait, I don't. Jeez, how about getting your images ready to talk about them in half the video time, like a decent youtuber. No thanks.

That said, it's funny how with only a few days to go, all these rumours are spinning violently in completely different directions. Navi is going to have 8 geometry engines and be super powerful! Navi is going to disappoint with crappy performance, beware! Literally no one has any idea what they're talking about. I'm going to spend the next couple days out in the world, because it'll be much more entertaining than people just babbling for 30 minutes on youtube at a time.
Most of these Videos are pointless.

Driven by the amount of monetization you can get from a long video, they are expanding a few text lines of rumor text (less than a minute to read) to 20 or 30 minutes of babbling hot air.

It would be nice if people posting videos, spent a minute to type in what new info it contains, rather than just link dropping every rumor video they find on youtube.
 

N4CR

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These cards will fail hard then
Only idiot would choose card without any DXR whatsoever over card with hardware DXR
I'd say the opposite. It works well in a single, easily optimised tunnel shooter, yet in most other games is subpar compared to upres.. Which any card can do.
 

IdiotInCharge

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I'd say the opposite. It works well in a single, easily optimised tunnel shooter, yet in most other games is subpar compared to upres.. Which any card can do.
And if you keep your cards for more than six months, it'll be in everything... so no, it's not advisable to get a high-end card without it. Mid-range cards like this Navi? May matter, may not. I expect we'll see more indies / MOBAs / MMOs that have pretty tame overall requirements start using DXR for effects, but, I also don't expect for that to be revolutionary, and Navi generally targets those building to specific budgets. So if there's a tradeoff between RT hardware and more raster output- I'd take more raster output too.
 

Pieter3dnow

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And if you keep your cards for more than six months, it'll be in everything... so no, it's not advisable to get a high-end card without it. Mid-range cards like this Navi? May matter, may not. I expect we'll see more indies / MOBAs / MMOs that have pretty tame overall requirements start using DXR for effects, but, I also don't expect for that to be revolutionary, and Navi generally targets those building to specific budgets. So if there's a tradeoff between RT hardware and more raster output- I'd take more raster output too.
Yeah because current ray tracing implementations of it screams "buy Nvidia" . It is deafening .....
 

IdiotInCharge

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Yeah because current ray tracing implementations of it screams "buy Nvidia" . It is deafening .....
If that is how you see it and you find yourself offended, you should direct your energy at AMD. Perhaps they may be more motivated to catch up.
 

Auer

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So at $350 the AMD equivalent of the RTX2070 should outsell the overpriced RTX2070 with ease, especially if it doesnt have all the extra RTX baggage......?
 

IdiotInCharge

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So at $350 the AMD equivalent of the RTX2070 should outsell the overpriced RTX2070 with ease, especially if it doesnt have all the extra RTX baggage......?
Assuming that Navi will be that fast, that cheap, actually available, and Nvidia doesn't respond with a price adjustment (or product), probably.
 

euskalzabe

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Most of these Videos are pointless.

Driven by the amount of monetization you can get from a long video, they are expanding a few text lines of rumor text (less than a minute to read) to 20 or 30 minutes of babbling hot air.
Huh. I didn't know that time spent watching a video = money. I figured it was just clicks per video. This explains why I keep seeing more and more 20-30 minute videos where a good half of the video is rehashing the rumors of the past months (it's why I'm getting tired of AdoredTV, it used to always do in-depth walkthroughs of stuff, but now it's just "let's recap what I've said in the past 4 months before getting to today's rumor" and BAM, 20 minutes of recap, then "new" stuff).

I do hope AMD announces Navi on the 27th and not wait anymore. I'm tired of all the scattershot rumors. There's such wild variation, at this point someone is going to get lucky and be right.
 

Snowdog

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Huh. I didn't know that time spent watching a video = money. I figured it was just clicks per video. This explains why I keep seeing more and more 20-30 minute videos where a good half of the video is rehashing the rumors of the past months (it's why I'm getting tired of AdoredTV, it used to always do in-depth walkthroughs of stuff, but now it's just "let's recap what I've said in the past 4 months before getting to today's rumor" and BAM, 20 minutes of recap, then "new" stuff).

I do hope AMD announces Navi on the 27th and not wait anymore. I'm tired of all the scattershot rumors. There's such wild variation, at this point someone is going to get lucky and be right.
Clicks are nothing. It's ads/video. Longer length is more opportunity for ads.
 
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Boil

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How about some text about any new info. I really don't care to listen to all these long winded videos reiterating what in a reality is just a few sentences of rehashed info.
I prefer to let the viewer come to their own conclusions...

Oh man, that is one BAD video. If I wanted to see someone draw garbage doodles in MS paint in real-time, I would... oh wait, I don't. Jeez, how about getting your images ready to talk about them in half the video time, like a decent youtuber. No thanks.
I commented that on the video, prepping some layers in PS would have made everything so much smoother...

I vote for Zen 2 at computex, Navi at E3. But who knows at this point.
Computex for Ryzen 3000-series CPUs & X570 motherboards, E3 for Navi GPUs...
 

lightsout

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So at $350 the AMD equivalent of the RTX2070 should outsell the overpriced RTX2070 with ease, especially if it doesnt have all the extra RTX baggage......?
Sounds great, accept for the fact that the current rumoured price for the 2070 competitor is $499. Hopefully not true.
 

cjcox

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As a Linux person, I'm interested in seeing where AMD goes GPU wise. It's possible that things will be very smooth in the coming year with regards to open source driver support and major distros with regards to AMD. Of course, will take a little bit likely before Navi is well supported, but I want to see what happens.

Of course, might be a good time for a Ryzen 3 as well.
 

sabrewolf732

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Serious question

Everyone seems to think AMD won't undercut Nvidia's prices by $100-$150

Why not?

They have before (hd4870, 5870, 290 etc) and they do with ryzen.
 
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