Multi GPU's and gamers

[heatlesssun]

There is no solution. Keep trying.

Which is my WHOLE point about why this spirals. And for a something that two damn people can look at and come up with different observations it'll be pretty tough to solve.

Also why to people keep bring up the cost of my hardware? Hell yes I stuffed this puppy because its the fastest multi-GPU AND single GPU solution. Really microstuttering is a minor issue compared to the other issues with multi-GPU. That's what's so damn funny about this thread!

But when it works well which is most of the time and I think Kyle and the [H] crew agree, it's an incredible experience!

Now you can end the thread!

 

[rtd]

Which is my WHOLE point about why this spirals. And for a something that two damn people can look at and come up with different observations it'll be pretty tough to solve.

Also why to people keep bring up the cost of my hardware? Hell yes I stuffed this puppy because its the fastest multi-GPU AND single GPU solution. Really microstuttering is a minor issue compared to the other issues with multi-GPU. That's what's so damn funny about this thread!

But when it works well which is most of the time and I think Kyle and the [H] crew agree, it's an incredible experience!

Now you can end the thread!

It spirals because you make it spiral, I've already said numerous times it's not just microstutter. From my 3rd or 4th post in this thread until now. And you're just now realizing that it's not just microstutter. You just argue one point at a time and blindly at that.2 cards has and for the foreseeable future will create input lag.

I already told you exactly how to prove this. If you watch demos of people playing quake and watch them over and over looking at the shots and jumps they make. You'll notice a difference. It's more noticeable with pros because casual players generally don't hit pixel rail shots as often. If you watch the same shot several times, it will eventually time itself to coincide with the inconsistent frame buffering caused by SLI. Latency plays a part in this as well, but if you watch the same demo over and over and see change. That's because of multi-gpu rendering. It's unavoidable as I said on page 8 or 9.

The problem with the technology as stated earlier are the amount of frames being bunched up(I'm not even sure I like this to begin with) are not consistent so if they bunch up a lot and somebody goes to make a standard shot like somebody rocket jumping to go through a doorway,so you move your reticule over to the doorway to fire as he flies through your cross hair. You miss and then watch your demo and see that your shot was actually delayed and you had barely missed. Despite knowing while you were playing you should have hit that easy shot. You can say the same thing about a circle jump in quake if when you go to jump you're not actually where you appear to be, you'll miss the jump. This is because the information you got the first time was slightly more delayed than the rest.

Basically it's like a brief moment of packet loss. That catches up rapidly.

@ heatless if they changed the way this worked it could eliminate the inconsistencies and reduce input lag.I just don't think it's a big enough issue for them to fix. It's a problem that is only noticeable under certain conditions and the player has to be very attuned to the game and that specific situation to know otherwise.Or they can demo themselves over and over and watch and they'll notice the difference from shot 1 the first time they play it back and shot 1 the second time they play it back, they might have to go as far as a few fights in but, you'll definitely be able to compare it and notice it. You don't have to be a pro gamer, just have to have a good eye for little changes. But yea if I go back to find the graph of how it works,in this thread that would give you a somewhat technical explanation on why it happens and how it can be prevented.

One more thing, you say you all technology has flaws. Well admit that yours does and be thankful you're not experiencing what others do at times.This is permission to stop talking about something that clearly doesn't pertain to you or your flawed graphics cards that you're trying so hard to justify.

 

[heatlesssun]

It spirals because you make it spiral, I've already said numerous times it's not just microstutter. From my 3rd or 4th post in this thread until now. And you're just now realizing that it's not just microstutter. You just argue one point at a time and blindly at that.2 cards has and for the foreseeable future will create input lag.

Fine, there's microstutter, like I didn't already acknowledge that a zillion times. Switch over to a single GPU. That's why you build multi-GPU configs with the most powerful single cards if there's issues. Problem solved. There are plenty of games, especially single player where these issues want be a problem. Enjoy the best of both worlds.

I mean is there anything else you can do? You're not saying that no one can enjoy the benefits of multi-GPU because of these issues right?

 

[rtd]

Fine, there's microstutter, like I didn't already acknowledge that a zillion times. Switch over to a single GPU. That's why you build multi-GPU configs with the most powerful single cards if there's issues. Problem solved. There are plenty of games, especially single player where these issues want be a problem. Enjoy the best of both worlds.

I mean is there anything else you can do? You're not saying that no one can enjoy the benefits of multi-GPU because of these issues right?

You are ..... never mind. I'm done with this thread and I'm no longer going to continue talking about this topic with somebody who has no idea what they are talking about or what they are even responding to.

 

[Matrices]

I pity these people who "see" microstuttering or whatever it supposedly is. The rest of us can just enjoy it without scouring for cavities in the mouth of the gift horse.

 

[heatlesssun]

I pity these people who "see" microstuttering or whatever it supposedly is. The rest of us can just enjoy it without scouring for cavities in the mouth of the gift horse.

Me too! If microstuttering is a problem you swith over to a single GPU. What else is there, an Etch-A-Sketch?

 

[bizzmeister]

This is still going on ? LOL. Come on guys.

 

[Glowingwind]

More Cowbell.

 

[Raap]

I was hoping [H] would do a CF/SLI review where they looked into the microstutter issue. As my 9800GX2 isn't working anymore, I can't exactly test this myself. It would be interesting to see the effect that the different SLI/CF rendering modes( AFR, AFR2, Scissor, etc.) have on both microstutter and performance in general.

 

[Dan_D]

I was hoping [H] would do a CF/SLI review where they looked into the microstutter issue. As my 9800GX2 isn't working anymore, I can't exactly test this myself. It would be interesting to see the effect that the different SLI/CF rendering modes( AFR, AFR2, Scissor, etc.) have on both microstutter and performance in general.

That would be hard to do given that noticing it is entirely subjective.

 

[Valset]

I pity these people who "see" microstuttering or whatever it supposedly is. The rest of us can just enjoy it without scouring for cavities in the mouth of the gift horse.

that is a bit unfair. I DO see it (hell I can't stand to watch most blue ray movies without smooth motion) I am aware that I am in the small minority but that doesn't render the issue mute. its not so bad if you ramp up the frame rates but for people like its not looking a gift horse in the mouth (and when was the last time you got a video card free anyways?) as much as the experience is lessened greatly by it.

 

[heatlesssun]

that is a bit unfair. I DO see it (hell I can't stand to watch most blue ray movies without smooth motion) I am aware that I am in the small minority but that doesn't render the issue mute. its not so bad if you ramp up the frame rates but for people like its not looking a gift horse in the mouth (and when was the last time you got a video card free anyways?) as much as the experience is lessened greatly by it.

So you see it in every game, at every setting? And you've confirmed that indeed the issue is microstutter by measureing frame rendering times in all the situations that you've seen it?

 

[Mr. K6]

So you see it in every game, at every setting? And you've confirmed that indeed the issue is microstutter by measureing frame rendering times in all the situations that you've seen it?

Every time your world goes black for an instant because you blink, do you ask your colleagues to watch you and set up a camera to record your face just to make sure it's blinking or do you just think "hey, I blinked" and move on with your life?

 

[RamonGTP]

So you see it in every game, at every setting? And you've confirmed that indeed the issue is microstutter by measureing frame rendering times in all the situations that you've seen it?

You don't have to see it in every game at every setting for many of us to deem the costs of such a setup "not worth it". That's what you're failing to understand, either because you're simply refusing to, your you're just psychologically incapable of processing a point of view and value system that differs from your own.

 

[Raap]

That would be hard to do given that noticing it is entirely subjective.

Well, I'm mostly just talking about benching the frame times instead of the frames per second, both which can be done with fraps. So it's not really that different from the regular benchmarks you guys do, and it takes alot less times since you basically just need to bench for a couple of seconds in a graphically intensive game to get a comparison between a single-GPU and multi-GPU in different rendering modes.

 

[heatlesssun]

You don't have to see it in every game at every setting for many of us to deem the costs of such a setup "not worth it". That's what you're failing to understand, either because you're simply refusing to, your you're just psychologically incapable of processing a point of view and value system that differs from your own.

I TOALLY understand your point. What you seem to fail to realize is that a lot of people simply don't see it that way. So because there might be some issues with some games you're not going to enjoy things 2D & 3D Surround AT ALL. Fine, that's your call. I chose to have a gaming experience beyond that of a single card. Really, why would I keep buying these kinds of setups if thet DIDN'T enhance my enjoyment of gaming? If I had had all these problems why would I buy 3 480s after having 3 280s? There's plenty of people on this board that are on their second, third, fourth or more multi-GPU setup. If we didn't get pleasesure and enjoyment why would be continue to buy the stuff?

That's the question you can't answer.

How said anything about seeing value in other systems? People buy what they want, I don't care. I like a high-end gaming expereience. If you don't that's your call.

 

[heatlesssun]

Well, I'm mostly just talking about benching the frame times instead of the frames per second, both which can be done with fraps. So it's not really that different from the regular benchmarks you guys do, and it takes alot less times since you basically just need to bench for a couple of seconds in a graphically intensive game to get a comparison between a single-GPU and multi-GPU in different rendering modes.

I can only imagine what Kyle will say to that.

 

[RamonGTP]

LoL, I realize that entirly, actually.

Until it was proven to you through graphs and other user experience, you flat out refused to believe it even existed on 480's, heck, even after it wsa proven you still skewed your words to make it seem like it was all in people heads.

I FULLY acknowledge the benefits of multi-gpu. For a 3 monitor wide setup, it's really the only option to get good performance at max or near max settings. You on the otherhand are half heartedly acknowledging issues even exist, and thats AFTER you got the data you requested.

So, you acknowledge there are issues, or at the VERY least, potential issues and I acknowledge tharee are benefits. Now we can both stfu and let this thread die.

 

[heatlesssun]

So, you acknowledge there are issues, or at the VERY least, potential issues and I acknowledge tharee are benefits. Now we can both stfu and let this thread die.

Fair enough, but once again a distoration of what I ACTAULLY said. I said I HADN'T SEEN in on the 480s. Even single GPU setups suffer the same fate, the problem tends no to be as pronounced there it seems. Do you honestly think that I've never seen the same stuff in this thread a BAZILLION times before?

And what is the conslucion that people like you come to? Stick with a single GPU. Well gee, I'm covered there too. It's because of issues with multi-GPU that I only SLI the most powerful cards. Geez Loiuse! Talk about people who don't listen!

 

[RamonGTP]

Yes, you do indeed have that option and I don't. And you absolutely should have that option at 3x the cost. To you and others it's worth it, to me and others it's not. I don't want to spend $1500 to use a single GPU, I'm doing that now with a $400 investment. I'll gladly cough up that money when the technology has matured to my liking.

You also don't need to reply telling me that will "never" happen. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me or anyone else that we may as well jump on it now because it's as good as it's ever going to get. It's improved slowly over the years and there's no reason to think it won't continue to do so.

 

[Raap]

Yah, I think that's mostly the point people want across when they say 'stick to a single GPU'. Very often you get recommendations about doing 2x of a slower card instead of going for the faster single-GPU card. That's bad advice, I'd say, because even if those dual-GPU solutions can match and sometimes beat the most powerful single GPU cards in pure fps, the gaming experience will not be as good once you start getting into graphically intensive games. There's also the few cases of non-existing or just poor SLI/CF scaling.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yes, you do indeed have that option and I don't. And you absolutely should have that option at 3x the cost. To you and others it's worth it, to me and others it's not. I don't want to spend $1500 to use a single GPU, I'm doing that now with a $400 investment. I'll gladly cough up that money when the technology has matured to my liking.

You also don't need to reply telling me that will "never" happen. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me or anyone else that we may as well jump on it now because it's as good as it's ever going to get. It's improved slowly over the years and there's no reason to think it won't continue to do so.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything because I think what you want is impossible and trying to convience someone of something when what I think they want is impossible is a fools task. Maybe it is but I know I wouldn't bet on it.

However I will point out that your thoughts are not in the mainstream and yes you don't agree with the Kyles of the world. He reviewed 480 SLI, like a bunch of other sites and they all gave it their highest award. And they all looked and the heat, noise, power AND COST and said it was awesome tech and worth the cost, otherwise I kind of doubt that they would have given it their highest awards. With what youlre saying, I simply don't see how you could review 480 SLI and give it your highest endorsement. Maybe you would once you played with it. For all you know, you wouldn't even notice microstutter or you might even not see it enough to outweigh the benefits. If you've never tried how could you possibly know?

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but really, with what you're saying and by the fact that you don't want to spend money on it, how could you possibly give it your highest endorsement? Clearly you can see why I thinking what I'm thinking.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yah, I think that's mostly the point people want across when they say 'stick to a single GPU'. Very often you get recommendations about doing 2x of a slower card instead of going for the faster single-GPU card. That's bad advice, I'd say, because even if those dual-GPU solutions can match and sometimes beat the most powerful single GPU cards in pure fps, the gaming experience will not be as good once you start getting into graphically intensive games. There's also the few cases of non-existing or just poor SLI/CF scaling.

Exactly! I've never recommended putting lower end cards into multi-GPU configurations because there's plenty of potential issues outside of microstuttering. Some games simply don't work with SLI or CF or have technical issues in multi-GPU. Anyone that's used the stuff for a while will tell you that multi-GPU isn't perfect and microstuttering is just one potential issue.

But there are also tremendous benefits when it does work and that tends to be the case these days and that's what just about everyone that uses this stuff and has for a while says. I really don't see the point in arguing with that. Maybe you don't think its worth it, and that's fine, nobody said you have to like it. But to claim that multi-GPU is plagued by issues like microstuttering and what not and that those issues negate the benefits, I'm sorry, I simply don't see people who have the stuff and continue to buy the tech are saying.

 

[RamonGTP]

So you think SLI has reached it's peak of innovation and will not get any better? Pretty foolish.

 

[Matrices]

This obsessive fixation is what we call an unhealthy fetish.

Unless there is a grand conspiracy among manufacturers and more than a dozen tech and gaming review sites (hint: there isn't), multi-GPU has been a smashing success. Its support in games has improved to the point where you're hard pressed to find a game that doesn't work with it, it was solid enough that Nvidia was confident to make it the foundation of Surround, it was popular enough that both manufacturers have been pumping out dual-GPU video cards for the last two or three years.

If this "micro-stutter" business mattered to more than five people in the world, none of the above would be possible, period. Editors at [H], Tom's, Anand, etc., would be coming down on it like a ton of bricks. That's just not happening.

So except for the negligible minority of super sensitive, it's simply a moot point because the phenomenon only strongly manifests itself at 20-40 FPS and no one with a SLI/CF solution is sitting around playing games at 20-40 FPS anyway.

 

[heatlesssun]

Batman AA in 3D Surround at 5760x1080 at nearly 60FPS. Couldn't do that with my last SLI setup so I'd say that yep, its gets better for sure.

But with your level of service requirements if just ONE game doesn't work then the whole thing is no good. The issue could be something OTHER than microstuttering you know. Some games, at least at launch don't work, don't scale, or have other issues with multi-GPU. Heck some games have certain issues even with single GPU setups.

All I'm saying is what anyone that's being honest about and has experience with the tech like me over the years. To think that all games, in all situations simply won't have issues, no I just don't see that happening, not in my lifetime. TOO MANY things can wrong. And I've simply never see a technology that didn't have SOME problems.

 

[heatlesssun]

If this "micro-stutter" business mattered to more than five people in the world, none of the above would be possible, period. Editors at [H], Tom's, Anand, etc., would be coming down on it like a ton of bricks. That's just not happening.

So except for the negligible minority of super sensitive, it's simply a moot point because the phenomenon only strongly manifests itself at 20-40 FPS and no one with a SLI/CF solution is sitting around playing games at 20-40 FPS anyway.

See this is EXACTLY it. People who by this stuff spend an awful lot of money on this tech as far as computers are concerned today. Do you really think I spent $1500 to have a ton of problems? I mean come on!

Bottom line, if the shit didn't work well who the hell would buy it, time and time again? Come on!

We'd be handing [H], Anandtech, Tom's, etc their areses on a plate with fixins' if we went and spent $5k on a setup based on their recommendations and the shit caused the problems that some of you are saying, at least on a consistant basis. Come on!

What kind of fool would Kyle look like if he gave 480 SLI is highest recomendation and most of readers thought like the RamonGTPs or K6s of the world. How the hell would he make a living? Come on!

And look you guys are entitled to your opinions not trying to pick on you, don't get me wrong, but really if most people saw it your way there would be a outcry like nothing you've EVER SEEN.

 

[RamonGTP]

Come on!

 

[rtd]

See this is EXACTLY it. People who by this stuff spend an awful lot of money on this tech as far as computers are concerned today. Do you really think I spent $1500 to have a ton of problems? I mean come on!

Bottom line, if the shit didn't work well who the hell would buy it, time and time again? Come on!

We'd be handing [H], Anandtech, Tom's, etc their areses on a plate with fixins' if we went and spent $5k on a setup based on their recommendations and the shit caused the problems that some of you are saying, at least on a consistant basis. Come on!

What kind of fool would Kyle look like if he gave 480 SLI is highest recomendation and most of readers thought like the RamonGTPs or K6s of the world. How the hell would he make a living? Come on!

And look you guys are entitled to your opinions not trying to pick on you, don't get me wrong, but really if most people saw it your way there would be a outcry like nothing you've EVER SEEN.

You're quite possible the most thick-headed poster I've seen who rallies behind any argument against what a few people notice.Judging by the way you pick your words and hug reviewers nuts, I'd say you're fairly young too.

Nobody was ostracizing multi-gpu solutions. We simple stated what we noticed and tried to get you to understand what we were talking about. Which I might add is an extremely difficult feat to accomplish.

Never once did I bash the people who use multi-gpus. In fact I even showed envy that they aren't experiencing the negatives of it. You really are out of your league in this argument, so out of your league that you have to pick and choose battles to lose left and right and then repeat what you said earlier.All the while ignoring all the facts presented by each person. It's almost like you're just doing it on purpose. There is no way you have absolutely no idea how people perceive your comments. If that is the case, I offer my deepest apologizes and sympathies.

Before you respond let me say this We were not bashing mainstream sli users or multi-gpus in general, We simply wish that it would increase performance across the board with no strings attached, no matter how small those strings may be.

PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD

 

[RamonGTP]

rtd don't you read? He already said that was impossible. SLI has gotten as good as it's ever going to get. Did you not get that memo? Come on!

(I think everyone should end their posts in this thread with an emphatic "Come on"!)

 

[heatlesssun]

LOL! Another comedian! I'm 42 and have been being working with computers before most people knew what they were.

Don't you think that the people that buy multi-GPU technology wished that it worked better? We have a LOT more invested in the technology after all than those that don't own it afterall. I've time and time again pointed out the flaws in as honest a fashion as possible. Apparently people just don't want honesty anymore.

It's simply a matter of the benefits outweighing the flaws. ALL technology has flaws which if you are as sage as you claim you'd know that and there's always a cost/benefit analysis involved. If you came to the conclusion through that analysis that you don't think multi-GPU is for you, so be it. I've never criticized anyone for coming to that conclusion.

The ONLY thing that I have criticized are people who don't have experience with technology making statements about its issues. For that matter I would be critical of people who had positive things to say about it without experience. But if you have tried the technology and didn't like it, fine, you came to a personal decision and I would encourage those to share their thoughts.

Gaming is a VERY personal thing. Different people have different perceptions and expectations. I LOVE GREAT VISUALS! That's what makes gaming interesting to me. Sure game play is important but a good looking game is a thing of art to behold. Something that I look at and say "WOW!". I have found multi-GPU, specifically SLI (I've never had a Crossfire setup) gives me visual enhancements that a single GPU simply cannot provide. And with nVidia GPUs you HAVE to SLI for multi-monitor. Surround in combination with 3D have been the most visually stunning thing I've have seen in my 30 years of playing computers games. To me, in the right games its simply beautiful. It's that simple to me. So the beauty, when its available more than makes for the technical issues, which have been WAY overblown in this thread.

Hug reviewers nuts? And you're the one calling me a kid, that's precious. Nope, not at all. The point is simply is that if reviewers come to a conclusion that their readers don't agree with, especially for something as expensive as a 480 SLI setup, I don't think that their readers would be all that happy. If Kyle or any any other reviewer were giving 480 SLI the high praise that they are and people bought this stuff based on their recommendations, cutting off their nuts would be more like it.

 

[heatlesssun]

rtd don't you read? He already said that was impossible. SLI has gotten as good as it's ever going to get. Did you not get that memo? Come on!

(I think everyone should end their posts in this thread with an emphatic "Come on"!)

Batman AA in 3D Surround at 5760x1080 at nearly 60FPS. Couldn't do that with my last SLI setup so I'd say that yep, it gets better for sure. http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1035987427&postcount=226

Wow, you just either don't read or you simply just like to be dishonest about what other people say. What I said is THE EAXCT OPPOSITE of you just posted! You couldn't have gotten more wrong if you tried. LOL!
If I had a nickle for everytime you just flat out LIED about what I ACTULLY SAID I'd have enough money for a 4th 480!

 

[RamonGTP]

Yeah? I challenge you list all my lies then, lets see how much money you would have made. lets see how full of it you really are.

I said I wanted multi-gpu technology to mature before I buy into it and you said what I want would never happen. That means you're saying it's getting as good as it's ever going to get.

Come on!

 

[heatlesssun]

Yeah, but you got the last one all screwed up! And if it had been me the first thing I would have said is "Gee I was wrong. Sorry." But that's just not you I guess.
But I have lost count of the number of times you've done this, honestly.

 

[RamonGTP]

You were talking about your LAST SLI setup clearly it's gotten better since then. I want it to get better than what is available NOW, not your LAST one smart guy, and you said what I want is impossible. Nice twist of facts there, and I'm the one lying?

Come on!

 

[Tudz]

I think this thread has long gone past being useful.

 

[heatlesssun]

Just give up, you got caught in a bold face error/lie and its clear what I meant to anyone not being as dishonest as you.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think this thread has long gone past being useful.

Pretty much. Time to enjoy some microstuttering Batman AA in 3D!

@RamonGTP - The last word is all yours!

 

[Brackle]

Crazy Thread LOL

 

[RamonGTP]

Just give up, you got caught in a bold face error/lie and its clear what I meant to anyone not being as dishonest as you.

I think you got it the other way around. Some epic douchbaggery on your part. You obviously wnat me to give up becuase you're one of those guys who has to have the last word. Go ahead, have it, this will be my last reply.

Come on!