MS and Windows 8 Strategy

Wrench00 said:
Actually I do. When your job is to consult you end up working for every facet of the economy.
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Because people that don't have any problems with Windows 8 would obviously come to you for consulting...

DPI said:
One could just as easily argue that its impossible to have a rational debate with an MS employee, insider, investor, shareholder or anyone else with an undisclosed financial stake in the sale of Microsoft products, including the people that sit at home and earn $1 per comment to post on behalf of an advertiser on the internet - yes they exist.

I realize there are also those with a windows based phone or tablet that believe the key to their platform's future is in taking as many desktop users hostage as possible to create the illusion of demand to attract Metro developers - and that the hijacking of this installed desktop base is a means to an end and "nothing personal". (Fine, but then admit it)

Either way, these people have a vested interest and much like the entirety of Sinofsky's 6-year reign of the Windows division, aren't interested in anyone else's point of view on the matter. What I do know is if someone's position on Metro is even more unrelenting and extreme than someone admittedly pro-Microsoft and pro-Windows like Paul Thurrott, well a debate with a Metro Purist is obviously futile. He's the dividing line, AFAIC. If you're interested in reading it, he posted an excellent article summing up the situation up to this point, and what gives him credibility is his ability to see both sides: http://windowsitpro.com/windows-8/microsoft-fixing-windows-8

In closing, Customer is King and hopefully MS is slowing getting their memory back.
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There are no people with a vested interest in this thread so far. There are people with a vested interest in bashing and hating anything, and there are that are trying to correct misconceptions and provide their own experiences and views.

And Microsoft does know customers are king. They need the Metro UI. They need to expand. They need to improve the Metro UI, which they will.
 
Tsumi said:
There are people with a vested interest in bashing and hating anything, and there are that are trying to correct misconceptions and provide their own experiences and views.
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Can you elaborate on what those who express 'hate' stand to gain by doing so? If you claim there's a vested interest in them doing so, it must be of benefit to them in some way. In what way would that be?

Suffice it to say that those who frequently proclaim that they make money as a result of Microsoft products very obviously have a vested interest — a pretty plain dog in the fight here — and one such person is here in full force. Yet he appears to be one of the people you're defending.
 
I don't mind if you guys have Metro, or MS apps and the app store, why do you guys mind if we strip it out, or tell people why we would want to do that in the first place? It makes the whole, "We have no vested interest in Win8's success.", spiel seem less than honest.
The not fans don't sound nearly as butt hurt as the fans telling us we are holding it wrong. I'm not a h8er, I just can't find the value of Metro on devices lacking a touch interface, and have no intention of ever using the app store.
 
wonderfield said:
Can you elaborate on what those who express 'hate' stand to gain by doing so? If you claim there's a vested interest in them doing so, it must be of benefit to them in some way. In what way would that be?

Suffice it to say that those who frequently proclaim that they make money as a result of Microsoft products very obviously have a vested interest — a pretty plain dog in the fight here — and one such person is here in full force. Yet he appears to be one of the people you're defending.
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What do Intel fanboys gain by hating on AMD? What do AMD fanboys gain by hating on bashing on Intel? Why do trollers troll, why are there flamewars? People like to bash and hate, it makes themselves feel good for whatever reason.

For that matter, have the defenders ever made the claim that the haters are Apple or Google investors/employees? And one way or another, most people make money using Microsoft products. Whether it's Office, specialized computers running Windows, etc.

Besides, do you think investors care about small enthusiast forums? They care about sales earnings reports, and what is reported on the news. Their time would be far better spent on news sights commenting on articles than in a niche forum.

GORANKAR said:
I don't mind if you guys have Metro, or MS apps and the app store, why do you guys mind if we strip it out, or tell people why we would want to do that in the first place? It makes the whole, "We have no vested interest in Win8's success.", spiel seem less than honest.
The not fans don't sound nearly as butt hurt as the fans telling us we are holding it wrong. I'm not a h8er, I just can't find the value of Metro on devices lacking a touch interface, and have no intention of ever using the app store.
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It goes both ways...
 
Thier stratedgy was to totally ignore their customers during the Windows 8 customer preview, make 2 versions of the ARM operating system (one for phones and one for tablets, and to try and force touch on a computing medium that does not require nor really benefits from it. Finally, they totally scewed the desktop over for older applications (because everyone wants to go thrugh their start menu and unpin a lot of installation shortcuts).

The GUI on Windows 8 DIRECTLY influenced by decision on buying a machine with Win 7 downgrade rights or one that had 7 installed from the get go..

Windows Phone 8? like it a lot. Windows 8 is totally msessed up for what I want from an OS.
 
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Tsumi said:
What do Intel fanboys gain by hating on AMD? What do AMD fanboys gain by hating on bashing on Intel? Why do trollers troll, why are there flamewars? People like to bash and hate, it makes themselves feel good for whatever reason.
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People also like to promote, propagandize and obsessively extoll the virtues of a product or range of products produced by a company. Yet you made no mention of these people having any "vested interest": you only singled out those who hate those products.

Tsumi said:
For that matter, have the defenders ever made the claim that the haters are Apple or Google investors/employees?
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I'm not sure what bearing that has on anything.

Tsumi said:
Besides, do you think investors care about small enthusiast forums?
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I don't.
 
A bunch of anonymous people arguing about the motives of others. It's so fucking stupid it's hilarious!:D
 
heatlesssun said:
A bunch of anonymous people arguing about the motives of others. It's so fucking stupid it's hilarious!:D
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But that's not as funny as you coming in here and tying to tell everyone how great you think windows 8 is and cannot see the shortcomings of Win 8 that have litterally turned people off to it..

Windows 8 is like a chick with a hot body but has a horse's head with the voice of a 40 year smoker who drank herself into oblivion..

It's so fucking stupid it's hilarious! :rolleyes:
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
But that's not as funny as you coming in here and tying to tell everyone how great you think windows 8 is and cannot see the shortcomings of Win 8 that have litterally turned people off to it..
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I use Windows 8 everyday on different devices and mentioned multiple times what I see as its strengths and weaknesses. I've said many many times that if one is using Windows 8 only on a traditional hardware with only keyboards and mice that I can see why some of those users may not like Windows 8. The integration of Metro and the desktop definitely needs to be improved, again, something I've said many, many times.

What I like about Windows 8 and its core strength is its ability to run all of the same desktop apps that I've always used and that they work like they always have combined with its ability function just like an iPad or Android tablet and run the same kinds of tablet apps and that this can all be done on a single device natively. So we can argue over the details but Windows 8 supports all of the software and hardware we've always used with traditional PCs and now is supports the capabilities of tablet as well. That's really all of praise I've ever given Windows 8 and again, I understand that users that are confined to only desktop and keyboard and mouse operation may not see it way since they are confined to only desktop and keyboard and mouse operation.

YeuEmMaiMai said:
Windows 8 is like a chick with a hot body but has a horse's head with the voice of a 40 year smoker who drank herself into oblivion..
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I'm working from home today on some documentation, using my Windows 8 dual screen desktop with one or more instances of Excel, Word, PowerPoint, Visio and OneNote running. There's really no difference in how this scenario would work in Windows 7 with the same hardware. Yes, certain elements are different here and there like searching locally for a file or launch something not pinned to the task bar, but the core of the work process is virtually the same.

And I’m not trying to gloss over the differences, clearly the launching of apps and searching and how that’s done with the full Screen Start screen comprises a lot of the complaints about Windows 8 but if one does adjust to the new UI, it’s perfectly useable for many on the desktop with a keyboard and mouse. So again, I get what many Windows 8 opponents are saying but if using Windows 8 were anything like your colorful metaphor, don’t even know how I’d be able to use it, for anything, let alone productive work with dual screens.
YeuEmMaiMai said:
It's so fucking stupid it's hilarious! :rolleyes:
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Yeah it is especially when some constantly ignore detailed statements that many Windows 8 proponents like myself have made repeatedly about both its strengths and weaknesses and instead act as though we've said things about Windows 8 that we never did.
 
DeathPrincess said:
People are buying less and less iFads..
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False. They are buying significantly more, sales up 60% over last year, though that's probably due to the iPad Mini. iPad market share has decreased with Android growing even more rapidly and of course the arrival of Windows 8/RT taking a slice of the market.
 
heatlesssun said:
I use Windows 8 everyday on different devices and mentioned multiple times what I see as its strengths and weaknesses. I've said many many times that if one is using Windows 8 only on a traditional hardware with only keyboards and mice that I can see why some of those users may not like Windows 8. The integration of Metro and the desktop definitely needs to be improved, again, something I've said many, many times.

What I like about Windows 8 and its core strength is its ability to run all of the same desktop apps that I've always used and that they work like they always have combined with its ability function just like an iPad or Android tablet and run the same kinds of tablet apps and that this can all be done on a single device natively. So we can argue over the details but Windows 8 supports all of the software and hardware we've always used with traditional PCs and now is supports the capabilities of tablet as well. That's really all of praise I've ever given Windows 8 and again, I understand that users that are confined to only desktop and keyboard and mouse operation may not see it way since they are confined to only desktop and keyboard and mouse operation.



I'm working from home today on some documentation, using my Windows 8 dual screen desktop with one or more instances of Excel, Word, PowerPoint, Visio and OneNote running. There's really no difference in how this scenario would work in Windows 7 with the same hardware. Yes, certain elements are different here and there like searching locally for a file or launch something not pinned to the task bar, but the core of the work process is virtually the same.

And I’m not trying to gloss over the differences, clearly the launching of apps and searching and how that’s done with the full Screen Start screen comprises a lot of the complaints about Windows 8 but if one does adjust to the new UI, it’s perfectly useable for many on the desktop with a keyboard and mouse. So again, I get what many Windows 8 opponents are saying but if using Windows 8 were anything like your colorful metaphor, don’t even know how I’d be able to use it, for anything, let alone productive work with dual screens.


Yeah it is especially when some constantly ignore detailed statements that many Windows 8 proponents like myself have made repeatedly about both its strengths and weaknesses and instead act as though we've said things about Windows 8 that we never did.
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do you carry your desktop around with you? Just wondering because you can already do all of those touchy things in windows 7 and even Vista (you know run it on a x86 tablet) and if you have a touch screen monitor it will respond to it as well.

There as no reason that MS could have not had their Metro interface and a FULLY FUNCTIONAL Windows 7 desktop complete with start menu.

and totally nice side step on the preview where people explicitly told MS to give the proper desktop back and also missing the point that it is also the most requested feature....
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
do you carry your desktop around with you? Just wondering because you can already do all of those touchy things in windows 7 and even Vista (you know run it on a x86 tablet) and if you have a touch screen monitor it will respond to it as well.
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My two main mobile computers are a touch and pen convertible laptop and keyboard dock tablet hybrid. Touch works much better on these kinds of devices with 8 than 7 and the desktop is still there.

YeuEmMaiMai said:
There as no reason that MS could have not had their Metro interface and a FULLY FUNCTIONAL Windows 7 desktop complete with start menu.

and totally nice side step on the preview where people explicitly told MS to give the proper desktop back and also missing the point that it is also the most requested feature....
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I understand this issue quite well and yes, Microsoft could have done this, perhaps even should have done this. But again a big issue here is the decline of traditional PC sales. And no one knows where the bottom will be on traditional PCs. Yes, the option to enable the classic desktop will appease a lot of folks but it does nothing to address the paradigm shift that is going on in computing away from traditional PCs and such and option would probably slow down the already slow and tough process of transitioning Windows into the tablet and touch world.

If Microsoft has to put back the old UI then that's what they have to do. I just don't think it's mean much in the long run delivering a UI for a platform on the decline with an unknown bottom.
 
heatlesssun said:
False. They are buying significantly more, sales up 60% over last year, though that's probably due to the iPad Mini. iPad market share has decreased with Android growing even more rapidly and of course the arrival of Windows 8/RT taking a slice of the market.
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You believe anything. Where are all these devices? How come if there's all these gazillion tablets Android/iCrap browsers make up >1% of traffic on every site traffic report I've seen?

Speaking of "growth" at this point Netbooks had a faster growth rate. The fad is stalling, and losing speed. 3 million sales with the amount of advertizing is absolutely shit.
 
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DeathPrincess said:
You believe anything. Where are all these devices? How come if there's all these gazillion tablets Android/iCrap browsers make up >1% of traffic on every site traffic report I've seen?
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I see tons of tablets in public now. Really, if no one were buying them then why would more and more be shipped quarter after quarter?

As for web traffic being on the low side, that's because people aren't using them nearly as much for web browsing as traditional PCs mostly because of apps. A good chunk of apps for iOS and Android are substitutes for web sites. And web browsing a lot of Android tablets can suck. particularly on the cheapo Android tablets.

DeathPrincess said:
Speaking of "growth" at this point Netbooks had a faster growth rate. The fad is stalling, and losing speed. 3 million sales with the amount of advertizing is absolutely shit.
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How is 3 million stalling or fading when it was at ABSOLUTE ZERO this time last year for Windows? And those 3 million machines were at the very top end of the price range of not only tablets but considerably more than the cheap plastic crap laptops that are the bulk of PCs in retail now. As Windows 8 tablets get cheaper and become more available do you think that people are going to want the same old cheap heavy, hot, low battery life plastic crap over something light, razor thin with solid performance and awesome battery life?
 
"decline of traditional pc" is vastly exaggerated. Of course a lot of new customers buy tab;ets/smartphones since for casual email checking and web browsing they are enough. This doesn't mean people don't need a normal pc/laptop for daily productive work.

People claim that they can replace their laptop with an iPad, but that's a very small number and not relevant. Fact is most people who use a tablet also have a normal laptop which they use a lot as well.

None of this excuses the fact that Win 8 doesn't do a good job of integrating touch and desktop. WinRT apps running on my super fast desktop pc are slower and less functional than an app on my Android phone. When even MS's own 1st party apps fail to show off RT, there is a problem.
 
MrCrispy said:
"decline of traditional pc" is vastly exaggerated. Of course a lot of new customers buy tab;ets/smartphones since for casual email checking and web browsing they are enough. This doesn't mean people don't need a normal pc/laptop for daily productive work.

People claim that they can replace their laptop with an iPad, but that's a very small number and not relevant. Fact is most people who use a tablet also have a normal laptop which they use a lot as well.
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I've never said the traditional desktop will die anytime soon but a lot of people that bought PCs never really needed all that they could do in the first place. Tablets are an option for a lot of people in that they "right-size" their needs.

MrCrispy said:
None of this excuses the fact that Win 8 doesn't do a good job of integrating touch and desktop. WinRT apps running on my super fast desktop pc are slower and less functional than an app on my Android phone. When even MS's own 1st party apps fail to show off RT, there is a problem.
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Not sure what Metro apps are slow on a Core i5/i7 machine, particularly with an SSD. And yes, a lot of Metro apps are immature, it is a new platform. And I have agreed Metro and the desktop need better integration. But I use this stuff everyday and have for a while, it's not the catastrophe that some say.
 
It's certainly not a catastrophe, in fact things like new Start Screen are quite nice. But Metro apps and a lot of WinRT suffer from loading/activation issues due to the memory model which is built to suspend the app as soon as possible and use very little memory, it is not optimized at all for any device which has sufficient memory.

If Microsoft do not do a much better job of integrating Metro and giving people a reason to use it, it will suffer the same fate as WP. And it will be yet another MS technology that fails to see any adoption. And I do not want that to happen. It is very frustrating to see good tech die because of stupid UI decisions made by clueless management (people like Sinofsky who refused to listen to any input).
 
MrCrispy said:
It's certainly not a catastrophe, in fact things like new Start Screen are quite nice. But Metro apps and a lot of WinRT suffer from loading/activation issues due to the memory model which is built to suspend the app as soon as possible and use very little memory, it is not optimized at all for any device which has sufficient memory.
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How well an app suspends depends pretty much on that app, some do a better job than others. But WinRT I think actually does take into account to some extent resources. I find that apps on my more capable machines seem to stay in memory longer without “restarting”. For instance on my Clover Trail tablet with on 2GB I find that IE Metro tends to have reload its tabs if I’ve been running a number of apps before going back. That just doesn’t happen nearly as much on my 8GB Lenovo x220t convertible tablet.

MrCrispy said:
If Microsoft do not do a much better job of integrating Metro and giving people a reason to use it, it will suffer the same fate as WP. And it will be yet another MS technology that fails to see any adoption. And I do not want that to happen. It is very frustrating to see good tech die because of stupid UI decisions made by clueless management (people like Sinofsky who refused to listen to any input).
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With Apple selling fewer Macs these days and with desktop Linux still stuck in its perennial 1%+ range according to the mainstream trackers, there’s pretty much zero chance of Windows becoming Windows phone, at least from competition on the desktop. If anything is going to kill Windows it will be tablets. Many accuse Microsoft of being arrogant but at least they aren’t so arrogant to not acknowledge the extreme threat that tablets pose to desktop Windows.
 
heatlesssun said:
How well an app suspends depends pretty much on that app, some do a better job than others. But WinRT I think actually does take into account to some extent resources. I find that apps on my more capable machines seem to stay in memory longer without “restarting”. For instance on my Clover Trail tablet with on 2GB I find that IE Metro tends to have reload its tabs if I’ve been running a number of apps before going back. That just doesn’t happen nearly as much on my 8GB Lenovo x220t convertible tablet.



With Apple selling fewer Macs these days and with desktop Linux still stuck in its perennial 1%+ range according to the mainstream trackers, there’s pretty much zero chance of Windows becoming Windows phone, at least from competition on the desktop. If anything is going to kill Windows it will be tablets. Many accuse Microsoft of being arrogant but at least they aren’t so arrogant to not acknowledge the extreme threat that tablets pose to desktop Windows.
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Speaking of which. I just use a Mac yesterday since 10.4 and wow has it changed. I see the future push to a iOS integration. But again its optional and very polished compared to the turd that 8 is. It was gorgeous compared to shity esthetics of 8.
 
I know a lot of people have been complaining about the Surface "dancing" commercials which I don't like either and that nothing was being shown of Windows 8 or the desktop. Just saw an abridgement of this ad on TV today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv971t0elyM

Caught my eye because one of the devices they show in the commercial is one that I have, the Samsung Ativ 500T. What they do in this commercial is very similar to what I demo when people have asked me questions about the Ativ. Not the sexiest commercials but I do think that this type of advertising works well for Windows 8 because even with all of the blogosphere debate over 8 from techies, I don't think that average people really understand it and certainly know little about hybrid devices.
 
heatlesssun said:
I know a lot of people have been complaining about the Surface "dancing" commercials which I don't like either and that nothing was being shown of Windows 8 or the desktop. Just saw an abridgement of this ad on TV today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv971t0elyM

Caught my eye because one of the devices they show in the commercial is one that I have, the Samsung Ativ 500T. What they do in this commercial is very similar to what I demo when people have asked me questions about the Ativ. Not the sexiest commercials but I do think that this type of advertising works well for Windows 8 because even with all of the blogosphere debate over 8 from techies, I don't think that average people really understand it and certainly know little about hybrid devices.
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At least they showed functionality. It still a shit commercial. Why do they need people to say anything, when you have people open their traps it makes me cringe, yeah I bet they are NOT paid actors to say some PR bullshit from MS. Apple commercials are MUCH better then MS.
 
Wrench00 said:
At least they showed functionality. It still a shit commercial. Why do they need people to say anything, when you have people open their traps it makes me cringe, yeah I bet they are NOT paid actors to say some PR bullshit from MS. Apple commercials are MUCH better then MS.
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Microsoft has been running these kinds of "man in the street" ads for a number of years now, they had a similar campaign with Windows 7 using a computer make over theme. As far as Apple ads, do they even bother advertising the Mac these days? They sell so few of them these days and since the Mac market is experiencing similar contraction to the PC and with the iPhone and iPad selling so much better I would imagine it's hardly worth it.
 
heatlesssun said:
Microsoft has been running these kinds of "man in the street" ads for a number of years now, they had a similar campaign with Windows 7 using a computer make over theme. As far as Apple ads, do they even bother advertising the Mac these days? They sell so few of them these days and since the Mac market is experiencing similar contraction to the PC and with the iPhone and iPad selling so much better I would imagine it's hardly worth it.
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Apple knows not to bother advertising MAC they advertise iOS devices thats where they make money. They still sell enough to make money on the Mac even they don't sell hell alot of them. Any way apple knows that the real money is in the platform and itunes store. Something that MS has so far failed to do.
 
Is there a way to actually turn off UAC in 8? Even at the off position, and EnableLUA set to 0, things like CMD do not run elevated.
 
bigdogchris said:
Is there a way to actually turn off UAC in 8? Even at the off position, and EnableLUA set to 0, things like CMD do not run elevated.
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You still need to run it as administrator if you want it to have administrator priviledges.
 
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