MS and Windows 8 Strategy

heatlesssun said:
Steam users have certainly been picking up Windows 8 at a healthy clip, it's the #2 OS of Steam users currently. And 8 is a heck of a lot more fun on a tablet than 7.
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What other OS would be #2? It most certainly is not going to be XP or Vista. Plus, a lot of enthusiast/gamers upgrade to just have the latest OS. It doesn't mean they love it. You tried this a month ago about how 8 is the #4 OS in the world now.
 
bigdogchris said:
What other OS would be #2? It most certainly is not going to be XP or Vista. Plus, a lot of enthusiast/gamers upgrade to just have the latest OS. It doesn't mean they love it.
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Does anyone really love Windows? I get called a Windows fanboy a lot and honestly it's not so much that I love it as love all of the support it has, which is probably the case for tons of folks.

bigdogchris said:
You tried this a month ago about how 8 is the #4 OS in the world now.
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Which is just what the stat counters are saying. As I've said many times one reason Microsoft did what it did with Windows 8 is because it could. There is no real competition for Windows on the desktop. A distro of Linux with something that looks like a Start Button and Start Menu still isn't natively compatible with Windows desktop apps. And who is going to pour tons of resources into the desktop market as it declining to battle Windows? Heck even Ubuntu is moving on to phones and tablets.
 
Has anyone tried Ex7forW8 yet? It replaces Windows 8 Explorer with Windows 7 Explorer, yet retains all of the Windows 8 Explorer improvements. It also says to bring back Start Button and completely disable Metro. Haven't had a chance to try it yet.
 
bigdogchris said:
Has anyone tried Ex7forW8 yet? It replaces Windows 8 Explorer with Windows 7 Explorer, yet retains all of the Windows 8 Explorer improvements. It also says to bring back Start Button and completely disable Metro. Haven't had a chance to try it yet.
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Link?
 
bigdogchris said:
Has anyone tried Ex7forW8 yet? It replaces Windows 8 Explorer with Windows 7 Explorer, yet retains all of the Windows 8 Explorer improvements. It also says to bring back Start Button and completely disable Metro. Haven't had a chance to try it yet.
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WHY haven't I seen this before (kicks self). Genuine Windows 7 start button and start menu without hacks + the benefit of all the core improvements in W8 + removes the Metro cancer. Win-win! Testing this on a VM now.

Developer thread (same guy that created StartIsBack)-> http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8
Review -> http://betanews.com/2012/12/11/disable-the-new-windows-8-interface-for-good-with-ex7forw8/

LOL @ "limitations"

LIMITATIONS:
* Metro (Modern) UI is not loaded into memory. As a bonus you save dozens MB of RAM.
* Metro UI screens and programs are unavailable.
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...save dozens MB of RAM.

Dozens of MB of anywhere between 2GB to 16GB of total RAM in most modern systems, most laptops now come with 8GB. I mean really, this h8 for the Modern UI is going now a bit overboard, originally its just about missing the Start button, but to functionally lobotomized Windows 8 cross device (Windows Phone, RT and 8) functionality for no reason. You don't need to see its there, you can even now add in the old Windows games, but there is no good reason to kill the Modern UI all together.
 
There has been a recent influx of newcomers joining just to bash on Windows 8... there is no reason to try and make sense with them.
 
RangerXML said:
...save dozens MB of RAM.

Dozens of MB of anywhere between 2GB to 16GB of total RAM in most modern systems, most laptops now come with 8GB. I mean really, this h8 for the Modern UI is going now a bit overboard, originally its just about missing the Start button, but to functionally lobotomized Windows 8 cross device (Windows Phone, RT and 8) functionality for no reason. You don't need to see its there, you can even now add in the old Windows games, but there is no good reason to kill the Modern UI all together.
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Do you actually need that cross device functionality on your desktop?
On my desktop PC, I don't. I also don't care for any of the metro apps on the desktop PC. I get the benefits I want, and get rid of the crap I don't. Nobody is harmed. Except maybe metro app writers, but, "I was not going to buy their stuff anyway."
 
Then buy Windows 7 and screw any core OS improvements, because I consider that cross device functionality as one of them.

Boot Windows 8, hit the button/tile that says "Desktop", done; install "Start" button, boot straight to Windows 8 desktop, done. Really, how hard can it be; want me to hold your hand some more? I work with people and help people who know a lot less about computer then you guys, but who can follow either of those 2 instruction really well.

I have already said, I agree, Windows/Microsoft marketing failed and hard, but they did not release a bad product.

EDIT: I'm getting upset and I'm stepping back from this thread, its pointless.
 
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DPI said:
WHY haven't I seen this before (kicks self). Genuine Windows 7 start button and start menu without hacks + the benefit of all the core improvements in W8 + removes the Metro cancer. Win-win! Testing this on a VM now.

Developer thread (same guy that created StartIsBack)-> http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/35189-Windows-7-explorer-for-Windows-8
Review -> http://betanews.com/2012/12/11/disable-the-new-windows-8-interface-for-good-with-ex7forw8/

LOL @ "limitations"
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Cool I'm gone give it a shot.
 
RangerXML said:
Then buy Windows 7 and screw any core OS improvements, because I consider that cross device functionality as one of them.

Boot Windows 8, hit the button/tile that says "Desktop", done; install "Start" button, boot straight to Windows 8 desktop, done. Really, how hard can it be; want me to hold your hand some more? I work with people and help people who know a lot less about computer then you guys, but who can follow either of those 2 instruction really well.

I have already said, I agree, Windows/Microsoft marketing failed and hard, but they did not release a bad product.

EDIT: I'm getting upset and I'm stepping back from this thread, its pointless.
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Can't figure out why you are upset. Metro is all but useless to many of us. Why would us getting rid of it, while keeping the benefits we are interested in keeping, be an issue to you? How is anyone harmed? And all the marketing in the world would not have made Metro better on the desktop for many of us.
 
Believe it or not, I use Metro apps, like Skype and Netflix frequently. Stardocks created this program called ModernMix which allows me to run them on my desktop with my other programs that are open across all my monitors. The Modern UI Netflix app for example, way better then the WMC app.
 
RangerXML said:
I have already said, I agree, Windows/Microsoft marketing failed and hard, but they did not release a bad product.
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No doubt Microsoft has had it's issues in this area. A tablet Q1 2013 came out today and actually it looks like the Windows 8/RT sales aren't catastrophic at all: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ed-tablet-shipments-in-q1-2013-204381411.html

7.5%, a distant 3rd to be sure but the numbers in this report aren't very huge numbers either, iPads at 19.5 million, Android at 17.6 and Windows at 3.0, when you add in the "white box" i.e. really cheap devices Android over takes the iPad and captures 52% of the market in total. But on the bright side for Windows, those 3 million devices no doubt spanked the Android in average selling price. And Windows probably beat even the iPad here as even though Apple sold a lot more iPads this quarter than last year, most of those devices look to have been minis as Apple's profits fell on greater revenue.

I think the tablet race is going to be three solid competitors long term, assuming smaller, cheaper and better Windows devices which is all but certain. Microsoft won't come anywhere close to dominating but Windows should be able to get a decent slice of the market, 20% to 25% is realistic long term I think.

In the position that Microsoft was in with a shrinking desktop market and a rapidly growing tablet market they're doing overall what they had to do. It was never going to easy or painless because Microsoft was just too far behind in tablets and had to have some way to get in the game quickly and leveraging desktop Windows was by far their best shot to do it. Yes, it's upset a lot of traditional desktop users but realistically those people don't have anywhere else to go but Windows 7 until 8 gets to be more mainstream and desktop user friendly.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of first Vista is a legit fail on release, they patch it and fix it up quite a bit, then run the Mojave ads which was a good and a bad thing. First off, the people already set against upgrading didn't upgrade after the initial release fopa, but now you are a good way through development into a new redesigned OS which resembles Vista a lot and you are going to try to sell it to a bunch of people after running ads where you basically pull a bait and switch.

Windows 8 had a lot of bad press going into the OS, whereas Windows 7 open beta testing helped a lot, Windows 8 like Vista hurt a lot. You had a lot of inexperienced people signing up for the beta, who without watching any of the instructional videos just loaded up the OS and were completely helpless. These weren't the neo phobias you have now, these were people who though free OS, "Windows 7 pre-release worked so well" types who have no business in a beta test. It was sink or swim and this is something Microsoft should have looked into, because it was at the core of all the complaint. Instead, this automatic "Windows 8 sucks" just perpetuated right into release.

I did a presentation on the benefits and shortcomings of Windows 8 in work environment, I showed people how to use it and after about 10 minutes the people in my class loved Windows 8. I highlighted its shortcomings of un-intuitiveness and showed them how to shutdown the computer. One of the worse design decisions in my mind, how to shutdown Windows 8, far worse than the Start button since you had the Desktop tile right there and if you right click the corner where the Start button was, you can access everything, except Shutdown, that you use to (infact I thought adding shutdown to this menu would've been helpful).
 
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GORANKAR said:
Can't figure out why you are upset. Metro is all but useless to many of us. Why would us getting rid of it, while keeping the benefits we are interested in keeping, be an issue to you? How is anyone harmed? And all the marketing in the world would not have made Metro better on the desktop for many of us.
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Microsoft is often accused of not adapting fast enough and while that's quite true part of that does come with having lots of customers that for whatever reasons simply don't want any change and they want Microsoft to continue along a path of diminishing returns even when its obvious that something isn't in the best of health.

The desktop market isn't healthy. That doesn't mean that it's dying and that we're all going to be using tablets for everything anytime soon but the world is definitely moving away from the desktop for many things and tablets are beginning to be used even for productive tasks. Again that's not to say that Microsoft shouldn't have provided a UI switch but in time that switch will simply turn Windows into something that fewer and fewer people will use and care about.
 
RangerXML said:
I did a presentation on the benefits of Windows 8, I showed people how to use it and after about 10 minutes the people in my class loved Windows 8. I highlighted its shortcomings of un-intuitiveness and showed them how to shutdown the computer. One of the worse design decisions in my mind, far worse than the Start button since you had the Desktop tile right there and if you right click the corner where the Start button was, you can access everything, except Shutdown, that you use to (infact I thought adding shutdown to this menu would of been helpful).
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Completely agree. I think a lot of people confuse unintuitive with unfamiliar and in that Microsoft just didn't come out with a way to educate people, they didn't even try. And it's obvious they knew this was a problem but for whatever punted on it. But this oversight had to be by design for whatever reason. Maybe they thought that if people got the idea that they had to be massively retrained, which most people don't, that would scare people off or something.
 
My Beef with 8 is that Metro is unfinished. MS released an alpha product and said hey we will take out feature do piss poor integration with legacy and some how call it latest and greatest. Like it or not Legacy will go on for the next 30 years.
 
Alpha product, really? Can you run legacy hardware and software from the desktop? Can you then pin it to the Start screen and run it functionally from the desktop? Modern UI, is well modern, and is very single focused for functionality, not backwards compatibility (well sort of).

Do Modern UI apps run?
Yes.

Do they slow down your computer?
No.

Can you use your printer and scanner when you need it with current drivers?
Well yes and no, not in Modern UI, but its fully compatible with my desktop mode.

Well isn't that the definition of legacy hardware support?
Yes.

Will productivity apps be released in Modern UI form?
No (maybe), because that is not what its designed for.
 
RangerXML said:
...save dozens MB of RAM.

Dozens of MB of anywhere between 2GB to 16GB of total RAM in most modern systems, most laptops now come with 8GB. I mean really, this h8 for the Modern UI is going now a bit overboard, originally its just about missing the Start button, but to functionally lobotomized Windows 8 cross device (Windows Phone, RT and 8) functionality for no reason. You don't need to see its there, you can even now add in the old Windows games, but there is no good reason to kill the Modern UI all together.
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Oh relax. The end goal isn't about trying to save 59MB of ram. Obviously. Its about getting rid of something some of us will never ever use. One less process is one less process. And I don't know about you but when I've decided I don't need something anymore I uninstall it, unfortunately MS gave us no such native ability so drastic measures have to be taken.

The fact MS was asleep at the wheel while the mobile revolution was happening and is now trying to catch up by taking a shortcut isn't my problem as a desktop user. I just need a working desktop PC with the minimum fuss and no extra bloat.

If you like Metro that's great, but then offer those of us that get no benefit from it the same respect to run without it. There are a lot of great improvements MS made to the core of Windows 8 - like Windows 7 on steroids. But Metro is not among them.
 
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RangerXML said:
Alpha product, really? Can you run legacy hardware and software from the desktop? Can you then pin it to the Start screen and run it functionally from the desktop? Modern UI, is well modern, and is very single focused for functionality, not backwards compatibility (well sort of).

Do Modern UI apps run?
Yes.

Do they slow down your computer?
No.

Can you use your printer and scanner when you need it with current drivers?
Well yes and no, not in Modern UI, but its fully compatible with my desktop mode.

Well isn't that the definition of legacy hardware support?
Yes.

Will productivity apps be released in Modern UI form?
No (maybe), because that is not what its designed for.
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Try the same logic in an entrprise settings or SMB setting doesn't work.

No need for Modern UI apps in SMB setting infact any enterprise setting. Just causes administrative headaches cause now I have to disable the shit.

Again Companies don't use Content consumption programs. How would you feel when a lawyer was watching Netflix and charging you money while he is doing it.

Productivity apps for Metro. So far there isn't any that are a legit competitor to Legacy.

Still doesn't explain the piss poor integration between legacy and metro.
Windows Blue will be closer to what 8 was should/supposed to be. 8 in current state is a fucking bad joke.
 
DPI said:
Oh relax. The end goal isn't about trying to save 59MB of ram. Obviously. Its about getting rid of something some of us will never ever use. One less process is one less process. And I don't know about you but when I've decided I don't need something anymore I uninstall it, unfortunately MS gave us no such native ability so drastic measures have to be taken.

The fact MS was asleep at the wheel while the mobile revolution was happening and is now trying to catch up by taking a shortcut isn't my problem as a desktop user. I just need a working desktop PC with the minimum fuss and no extra bloat.

If you like Metro that's great, but then offer those of us that get no benefit from it the same respect to run without it. There are a lot of great improvements MS made to the core of Windows 8 - like Windows 7 on steroids. But Metro is not among them.
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They weren't asleep at the wheel. They were smoking crack at the wheel. They literally went against the 20 years of Microsoft history of providing stability and backwards compatibility.

Problem with Microsoft is that it has piss poor leadership.
 
Wrench00 said:
Again Companies don't use Content consumption programs. How would you feel when a lawyer was watching Netflix and charging you money while he is doing it.
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But he may want a tablet to be able to reference documents, make edits and annotations to them even with a pen.

Wrench00 said:
Productivity apps for Metro. So far there isn't any that are a legit competitor to Legacy.
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After 6 months on the market I wouldn't have expected such. That said even some desktop applications can work on tablets reasonable well in Windows 7/8. However with 8 it's much easier to use the device with touch, launching programs with touch is far, far superior in 8 than 7.

And in time there will be some decent Metro productivity apps, there's a couple out there now, like the diagraming tool Grapholite. Office is coming to Metro either this year or next. I'm sure it want be everything in the desktop app but it doesn't have to be. Just something that works well on a tablet and is document compatible with desktop Office.

Wrench00 said:
Still doesn't explain the piss poor integration between legacy and metro.
Windows Blue will be closer to what 8 was should/supposed to be. 8 in current state is a fucking bad joke.
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For you and some others yes. For others its working well, even without classic UI utilities. Some people like Windows 8 as is, some don't. I don't understand the need to really make it out to be more than that.
 
DPI said:
The fact MS was asleep at the wheel while the mobile revolution was happening and is now trying to catch up by taking a shortcut isn't my problem as a desktop user. I just need a working desktop PC with the minimum fuss and no extra bloat.
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You're forgetting one the most important issue, desktop sales are declining. It's all well and good for you to want Microsoft to do want but if what you want is a declining market it will become harder and harder for to just consider the desires of those that want a 30 year old with only incremental improvements as that market shrinks.
 
heatlesssun said:
But he may want a tablet to be able to reference documents, make edits and annotations to them even with a pen.



After 6 months on the market I wouldn't have expected such. That said even some desktop applications can work on tablets reasonable well in Windows 7/8. However with 8 it's much easier to use the device with touch, launching programs with touch is far, far superior in 8 than 7.

And in time there will be some decent Metro productivity apps, there's a couple out there now, like the diagraming tool Grapholite. Office is coming to Metro either this year or next. I'm sure it want be everything in the desktop app but it doesn't have to be. Just something that works well on a tablet and is document compatible with desktop Office.



For you and some others yes. For others its working well, even without classic UI utilities. Some people like Windows 8 as is, some don't. I don't understand the need to really make it out to be more than that.
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Looks like your not very familiar but currently you need special permission to bring electronic recording devices into a court room.
Also where the data is located is another question.
Yes I can see engineers using autocad or Rhino/Inventor on their crappy underpowered tablet.. Certain things WILL never work with Tablet and that's any thing that needs input accuracy.

Your also again stepping into the world of speculation, what isn't doesn't exactly make a convincing argument. Office coming to metro, I'll believe it when I see it.
Again Microsoft put the cart before the horse. Trying to invent a market that is simply not there. Also 8 Will fail to gain traction in the SMB/Enterprise market why? Because Store will simply be disabled and users will just never know about it even if they have a 8 machine at home. Social engineering, Most people computing habits are picked up at work.

This is definatley a Content Consumption vs Creation Paradigm shift, but pissing off 2/3 of your bread and butter was the shear dumbest thing ever done by Microsoft.

If they want to gain any traction in the Corporate market drastic changes need to occur.

I couldn't give a lesser fuck about joe schmoe as I tell most to buy a mac so they don't call me.
 
Wrench00 said:
Looks like your not very familiar but currently you need special permission to bring electronic recording devices into a court room.
Also where the data is located is another question.
Yes I can see engineers using autocad or Rhino/Inventor on their crappy underpowered tablet.. Certain things WILL never work with Tablet and that's any thing that needs input accuracy.

Your also again stepping into the world of speculation, what isn't doesn't exactly make a convincing argument. Office coming to metro, I'll believe it when I see it.
Again Microsoft put the cart before the horse. Trying to invent a market that is simply not there. Also 8 Will fail to gain traction in the SMB/Enterprise market why? Because Store will simply be disabled and users will just never know about it even if they have a 8 machine at home. Social engineering, Most people computing habits are picked up at work.

This is definatley a Content Consumption vs Creation Paradigm shift, but pissing off 2/3 of your bread and butter was the shear dumbest thing ever done by Microsoft.

If they want to gain any traction in the Corporate market drastic changes need to occur.

I couldn't give a lesser fuck about joe schmoe as I tell most to buy a mac so they don't call me.
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Because you obviously know what everyone thinks. You obviously know the internal workings of every IT department on the planet, you know what every average consumer thinks, you know exactly what engineers think about using Windows tablets, and you know exactly how office people use Windows 8.
 
Wrench00 said:
Looks like your not very familiar but currently you need special permission to bring electronic recording devices into a court room.
Also where the data is located is another question.
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That all depends on the jurisdiction. Plenty in the US allow attorneys to use electronic devices in court, even ones with recording capabilities. And not all legal work of course is done in court.

Wrench00 said:
Yes I can see engineers using autocad or Rhino/Inventor on their crappy underpowered tablet.. Certain things WILL never work with Tablet and that's any thing that needs input accuracy.
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There are some pretty powerful hybrids and convertibles out there. And they are only going to get more powerful.

Wrench00 said:
Yes I can see engineers using autocad or Rhino/Inventor on their crappy underpowered
Your also again stepping into the world of speculation, what isn't doesn't exactly make a convincing argument. Office coming to metro, I'll believe it when I see it.
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Its more than speculation, Microsoft has said its coming. In fact the code name of the next version is Office is called Gemini.

Wrench00 said:
Again Microsoft put the cart before the horse. Trying to invent a market that is simply not there.
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You keep saying this but there's plenty of indication that there is a market for Windows 8 tablets and hybrids. Windows 8/RT was able to pull in 7.5% of the tablet market in it's first full quarter. Considering that Windows 8/RT tablets are the most expensive on the market, that's not a bad start.

Wrench00 said:
Also 8 Will fail to gain traction in the SMB/Enterprise market why? Because Store will simply be disabled and users will just never know about it even if they have a 8 machine at home. Social engineering, Most people computing habits are picked up at work.
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Huh?

Wrench00 said:
This is definatley a Content Consumption vs Creation Paradigm shift, but pissing off 2/3 of your bread and butter was the shear dumbest thing ever done by Microsoft.

If they want to gain any traction in the Corporate market drastic changes need to occur.

I couldn't give a lesser fuck about joe schmoe as I tell most to buy a mac so they don't call me.
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So Apple managed to sell not even 4 million Macs, actually a bit of decline year over year, but somehow 2/3rds of Windows users as so pissed off with Windows 8 that fewer people bought Macs?

Windows 8 has its problems and Microsoft may not have responded to come customers the way they should have but it's also obvious that some Windows 8 opponents just aren't facing reality here either. There is no mass migration of millions of Windows users to Macs, unless they are used ones, and even then none of the major stat counters is showing in movement in OS X or Linux. Windows 8 may have depressed some desktop/laptop sales but with the incredible growth in tablet sales PC sales were going to take a bit hit, no matter how Windows 8 was perceived by its opponents.

The traditional PC industry is simply at a crossroads. It's not going away but there just doesn't seem to be any way for it to grow much any more. And sure, Microsoft needs to address concerns of legacy desktop/laptop folks, no doubt about it. But that is for now a declining market. One that isn't going to help Microsoft or its OEMs grow, at least for now.
 
Tanking economy + sensationalists = WINDOWS IS KILLING TEH PC ZOMG!!!

Seriously, I don't even buy it any more.
Windows 8 has issues, GUI issues though, not much in the back-end.

This is no where near as bad as Vista or ME were.
I do agree that Microsoft will have to up their game if they want to have Windows 8 in the enterprise market, but Windows 7 is filling that gap perfectly fine.

If one doesn't like Windows 8, then don't use Windows 8.
If one doesn't like the GUI, then download and install one of the many GUI altering tools within 5 minutes.

Boom, done.
I don't even get what the big deal is any more.

This, coming from the biggest anti-Microsoft, GNU/Linux shill to ever tread these forums. :D
 
Tsumi said:
There has been a recent influx of newcomers joining just to bash on Windows 8... there is no reason to try and make sense with them.
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One could just as easily argue that its impossible to have a rational debate with an MS employee, insider, investor, shareholder or anyone else with an undisclosed financial stake in the sale of Microsoft products, including the people that sit at home and earn $1 per comment to post on behalf of an advertiser on the internet - yes they exist.

I realize there are also those with a windows based phone or tablet that believe the key to their platform's future is in taking as many desktop users hostage as possible to create the illusion of demand to attract Metro developers - and that the hijacking of this installed desktop base is a means to an end and "nothing personal". (Fine, but then admit it)

Either way, these people have a vested interest and much like the entirety of Sinofsky's 6-year reign of the Windows division, aren't interested in anyone else's point of view on the matter. What I do know is if someone's position on Metro is even more unrelenting and extreme than someone admittedly pro-Microsoft and pro-Windows like Paul Thurrott, well a debate with a Metro Purist is obviously futile. He's the dividing line, AFAIC. If you're interested in reading it, he posted an excellent article summing up the situation up to this point, and what gives him credibility is his ability to see both sides: http://windowsitpro.com/windows-8/microsoft-fixing-windows-8

In closing, Customer is King and hopefully MS is slowing getting their memory back.
 
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Tsumi said:
Because you obviously know what everyone thinks. You obviously know the internal workings of every IT department on the planet, you know what every average consumer thinks, you know exactly what engineers think about using Windows tablets, and you know exactly how office people use Windows 8.
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Actually I do. When your job is to consult you end up working for every facet of the economy.
 
heatlesssun said:
That all depends on the jurisdiction. Plenty in the US allow attorneys to use electronic devices in court, even ones with recording capabilities. And not all legal work of course is done in court.



There are some pretty powerful hybrids and convertibles out there. And they are only going to get more powerful.



Its more than speculation, Microsoft has said its coming. In fact the code name of the next version is Office is called Gemini.



You keep saying this but there's plenty of indication that there is a market for Windows 8 tablets and hybrids. Windows 8/RT was able to pull in 7.5% of the tablet market in it's first full quarter. Considering that Windows 8/RT tablets are the most expensive on the market, that's not a bad start.



Huh?



So Apple managed to sell not even 4 million Macs, actually a bit of decline year over year, but somehow 2/3rds of Windows users as so pissed off with Windows 8 that fewer people bought Macs?

Windows 8 has its problems and Microsoft may not have responded to come customers the way they should have but it's also obvious that some Windows 8 opponents just aren't facing reality here either. There is no mass migration of millions of Windows users to Macs, unless they are used ones, and even then none of the major stat counters is showing in movement in OS X or Linux. Windows 8 may have depressed some desktop/laptop sales but with the incredible growth in tablet sales PC sales were going to take a bit hit, no matter how Windows 8 was perceived by its opponents.

The traditional PC industry is simply at a crossroads. It's not going away but there just doesn't seem to be any way for it to grow much any more. And sure, Microsoft needs to address concerns of legacy desktop/laptop folks, no doubt about it. But that is for now a declining market. One that isn't going to help Microsoft or its OEMs grow, at least for now.
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1. US is not the entire market, don't assume USA is the law of the land.
2. I'm sure devices will get more powerful but I doubt screen realestate is going to increase unless you see workers lug around a 30" tablet. Somethings will never work with Tablets.
3.Its nice they will have Metro App version but you still have the problem that the majority of the market hasn't expressed the need to be productive on a Tablet. I've yet to see a single Windows Tablet for the 35+ organization I do work for. Heck even the advanced features that are on their network are not being utilized even tho they know about them. There is more then one thing stopping this Tablet utopia that you are currently speculating, thats mostly to do with rules and regulations and corporate culture.
4.No there isn't a mass migration to Other OS's but there isn't a mass migration to Windows 8 either and drop in shipments is a pretty good indication of that. Why did you even bother to bring up Linux and MAC in to this argument?

Yes the Industry is at a cross roads and MS is still behind the times, the world is no longer about OS's and hardware, any idiot can see its all about Services and Computing Shift. Microsoft has failed to grasp the concept of Cloud computing, well not every part of Microsoft just the Windows Division. How come it still so difficult to remote into my powerful desktop with out 3rd party tools? How come there is no ability to leverage desktop power on the mobile platform. I am still puzzled that they haven't released a Skydrive server for the Business market.

Microsoft needs a strong leader and unified vision right now its a fucking a joke. Just look at the back end of Microsoft. Even as a partner of Microsoft I hate logging into their mess.
MCP, MPN site is just horrid with a mix of nasty design elements. VLSC portal yet again differs, Office 365 is another horrid mess, Dynamics portal is screwed up as well. If Microsoft can't stream line their portals how the fuck are they going to Stream Line something so complex as an OS?
Again my main problem with windows 8 is the piss poor integration of Legacy and Modern, poor flexibility of Modern vs legacy. Its a half assed effort by Microsoft Windows Team. At least office team seems to have some kind of a direction.
 
The Windows 8 BSOD is a frown face ... how cute... so professional. I'm surprised it doesn't say "Please contact your Administrator and tell them your PC has has a booboo"
 
Wrench00 said:
1. US is not the entire market, don't assume USA is the law of the land.
2. I'm sure devices will get more powerful but I doubt screen realestate is going to increase unless you see workers lug around a 30" tablet. Somethings will never work with Tablets.
3.Its nice they will have Metro App version but you still have the problem that the majority of the market hasn't expressed the need to be productive on a Tablet. I've yet to see a single Windows Tablet for the 35+ organization I do work for. Heck even the advanced features that are on their network are not being utilized even tho they know about them. There is more then one thing stopping this Tablet utopia that you are currently speculating, thats mostly to do with rules and regulations and corporate culture.
4.No there isn't a mass migration to Other OS's but there isn't a mass migration to Windows 8 either and drop in shipments is a pretty good indication of that. Why did you even bother to bring up Linux and MAC in to this argument?

Yes the Industry is at a cross roads and MS is still behind the times, the world is no longer about OS's and hardware, any idiot can see its all about Services and Computing Shift. Microsoft has failed to grasp the concept of Cloud computing, well not every part of Microsoft just the Windows Division. How come it still so difficult to remote into my powerful desktop with out 3rd party tools? How come there is no ability to leverage desktop power on the mobile platform. I am still puzzled that they haven't released a Skydrive server for the Business market.

Microsoft needs a strong leader and unified vision right now its a fucking a joke. Just look at the back end of Microsoft. Even as a partner of Microsoft I hate logging into their mess.
MCP, MPN site is just horrid with a mix of nasty design elements. VLSC portal yet again differs, Office 365 is another horrid mess, Dynamics portal is screwed up as well. If Microsoft can't stream line their portals how the fuck are they going to Stream Line something so complex as an OS?
Again my main problem with windows 8 is the piss poor integration of Legacy and Modern, poor flexibility of Modern vs legacy. Its a half assed effort by Microsoft Windows Team. At least office team seems to have some kind of a direction.
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It's really hard to see where you're coming up with a lot of this stuff. Like demand for Windows tablets. Clearly there are some pretty good signs that there is demand for them. In the full first quarter of availability Microsoft grabs 7.5% of the tablet market with the most expensive tablets on the market. The average selling price of Windows 8/RT is no doubt well above Android devices and with the introduction of the iPad Mini and it selling like it did, my guess is that the ASP of Windows 8/RT tablets is even above the mighty iPad.

If these numbers hold up and Microsoft and OEMs can get more, better, cheaper and smaller devices into the market, it might very well be that the Windows 8 strategy could work out well for Microsoft. The desktop market is shrinking, period, nothing is going to stop that for now. It will probably bottom out at some point but we really have no idea where that bottom is right now. Trading some desktop sales, in a market that Microsoft dominates and is shrinking for a new one that is growing rapidly is a good trade off, especially since Microsoft is unlikely to ever face a desktop challenger again.

At any rate its all about money. And Microsoft looks to be able to make plenty of it despite the endless chorus of those who seem to think that Microsoft is failing at everything.
 
I think that the key is cheaper tablets that still perform well and if Intel holds true to its word and releases a $200 Windows 8 tablet that supports Active Directory (something that RT lacked and kept its adoption low in the workplace) we could see something really interesting. Look at the success of the Nexus 7 and the Kindle series of tablets, now add viable workplace deployment to the mix. This is also where we are going to see that cross platform thing come into play, imagine running the same app on your phone and tablet/desktop.
 
Wrench00 said:
My Beef with 8 is that Metro is unfinished. MS released an alpha product
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I don't know if I would go as far as this statement, but Metro was included very late in the 8 development process. Considering it was the 'big thing', I would think it would be put in right away. If it wasn't ready, then delay the OS or wait for Windows 9 to ship it.
 
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