MS and Windows 8 Strategy

I'm not what you call a heavy pc user, but I've taught myself and gone from win 95 to current.
I'm fed up with all the up dates and big changes to every new OS they come out with.
I've got Ubuntu loaded on a small SSD and am playing around with that.
If there was an alternative to Microsoft that would run programs built for MS that would be magic.
 
raglafart said:
I'm not what you call a heavy pc user, but I've taught myself and gone from win 95 to current.
I'm fed up with all the up dates and big changes to every new OS they come out with.
I've got Ubuntu loaded on a small SSD and am playing around with that.
If there was an alternative to Microsoft that would run programs built for MS that would be magic.
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So what will you do when Ubuntu make a big ass change? Start using an abacus? Curta? Slide Rule?

Adapt and move on people.
 
schizrade said:
So what will you do when Ubuntu make a big ass change? Start using an abacus? Curta? Slide Rule?

Adapt and move on people.
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Ubuntu? They already made huge changes when moving from gdm to lightdm, Gnome 2.XX to Gnome 3/Unity.
What did I do? I dropped their asses like a hotcake.

It's not just the GUI that's the problem, as I could run XFCE or KDE or many others on any Linux distro including Ubuntu.
The problem is is that Ubuntu's back-end is horrible compared to every other Linux distro.

To me, Ubuntu 11.XX was akin to Vista, and 12.XX is akin to Win 8 without the reliability.
You heard me right, I just said Win 8 is more reliable than Ubuntu 12.XX.

Ubuntu does NOT represent the Debian branch, let alone every Linux distro or the Linux community.
LMDE and straight Debian are far superior and stable for desktop or server installations and functions than Ubuntu 11/12.XX could ever hope to be.

Once 10.04LTS desktop's support is up next month, I'm moving to LMDE on my desktop.


It isn't 'change' that we don't like, as is the case with Ubuntu and Windows.
It's the fact that the new version either has features we don't like or things that alter and make our productivity change or decrease in ways we do not like.

If I didn't like 'change', I would have never moved from Windows XP/7/2008R2 and OS X to Ubuntu/Other distros; that's as radical of a change as one can make.

So I don't think it's so much 'change' as it is features that many of us don't need or don't use.
But again, there are 3rd party tools that take less than 10 minutes to install, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal at this point, at least for Windows 8.

As for Ubuntu, Canonical can kiss my ass.
 
Wrench00 said:
How come this is a Linux high jack?
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It's a Microsoft thread.
These always end with Linux, cats, anime, and other random things.
(SkribbelKat isn't around any more, so no more cats)

However, Linux threads always end with Microsoft and/or Windows, Office, and tablets.
So go figure. :p


Seriously though, I was only trying to relate the similarities of 'change' between Ubuntu 10.04 to 12.XX and Windows 7 to 8 as a (probably bad) analogy.
 
Wrench00 said:
How come this is a Linux high jack?
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Desktop market share envy. Advocacy. Linux forum is lonely. Whatever. ;)

Red Faction made some thoughtful posts, and I think some of the topics raised (at least for consumer usage) naturally segue into what underpinnings "alternative" platforms use. Get into tablets and smartphones, which are growing rapidly to the detriment of traditional consumer PC usage, and Android/Linux and iOS are bound to come up. I don't think it was really a hijack.

Clearly tablets have scared the bejeezus out of MS and Windows 8 isn't an ideal bridge between the two segments. It does mirror what Canonical did with Unity, but at least you have a decent choice of alternative desktops in Ubuntu. MS wouldn't want to fragment the experience like that, and wound up making something that is annoying for some traditional PC users (arguably for a vast majority once business users are included).
 
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Business users aren't likely to use Windows 8 unless they have a specific need for Microsoft tablets anyways, so if there is any time to get a hybrid system out, fix it, and make it better before the next business upgrade cycle, now is the time.
 
Thuleman said:
Windows 8 is unacceptable for corporate use. We just had a deployment meeting about that last week and the decision was made that we are not deploying and/or supporting Windows 8. You should know that to us Windows 8 Enterprise is part of the site license agreement so there is no additional licensing cost, the cost was not a factor in the decision.

Windows 7 works well and there is literally nothing that Windows 8 brings to the table in a corporate environment that would justify an "upgrade" and dealing with all the UI and functionality issues that would go along with such a move.

It was also decided that except for file servers all of our server environment will remain on Windows Server 2008.

I use Windows 8 at home full time and I hate it, just didn't have the time to revert back to 7 yet.
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Good decision IMHO. Windows 8 has no place in an enterprise environment, not in its current form anyway. Why would any serious IT shop deploy Metro on their desktops? Did MS honestly believe that shops have the budget to train and transition people and critical resources for Windows 8 and its new OS. Did MS think that training tons people has zero cost to business?
 
If the leaks about Blue (8.1) are true, Microsoft are going to backpedal and allow booting to desktop, bring back old start menu etc. They will try to spin it as things they couldn't do in the initial release, but its a result of the massive backlash.
 
A mate is quite interested in Windows 8 for his surgery if it can be usefully paired with one of those devices which allow you to control the PC by waving your hands in front of the screen.

A touchscreen would not work as it would have to be sterilised every time. But if he doesn't have to touch it...
 
Yeah the Leap Motion controllers come out next month and HP is starting to integrate it in its products. Windows 8 and Metro apps work very well with gesture control, I plan on getting one of these things and see how it works. for $80 not an expensive toy to play around with.
 
heatlesssun said:
Yeah the Leap Motion controllers come out next month and HP is starting to integrate it in its products. Windows 8 and Metro apps work very well with gesture control, I plan on getting one of these things and see how it works. for $80 not an expensive toy to play around with.
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Thanks, didn't know these existed. I wonder how much if any code is shared with Kinect. And HP is planning to integrate this in their pc's too.
 
Oh good, another [H]ate 8 thread from wench, what a surprise. :rolleyes: So, have anytime to actually help people or do you just waste all you time on forums hating 8?
 
Seems to be that any thread regarding anything Windows 8 turns into one of these clusters. Its the in thing right now on [H]ard to [H]ate on 8, good thing I'm not with the in kids.
 
MrCrispy said:
Thanks, didn't know these existed. I wonder how much if any code is shared with Kinect. And HP is planning to integrate this in their pc's too.
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No problem. The technologies are similar, I've played a bit with Kinect on the PC and know something about what it can do, I really don't no much about the Motion but I don't think it does skeletal tracking. But it is nice to see this kind of stuff make it's way into the market.
 
ManofGod said:
Oh good, another [H]ate 8 thread from wench, what a surprise. :rolleyes: So, have anytime to actually help people or do you just waste all you time on forums hating 8?
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Yep, another Windows 8 blows, everybody knows moment.

I get a kick out of the Windows 8 debate across the web because so many of the comments make no sense at all. One of my favorite themes is the notion that Windows 8 and Microsoft take away lots of choice. I sit here in my home office with a dual non-touch screen desktop with a keyboard and mouse, a convertible laptop, a detachable screen hybrid and a pure x86 slate as my four major Windows 8 devices wonder exactly what choices I've lost. A Start Button/Menu that can easily be added back via a number of 3rd part solutions? Aero transparency? Maybe. I don't like what's happened to Media Center in Windows 8 but I do have my dual screen desktop setup with a Cable Card turner. Windows 8 can be used with a keyboard and mouse or touch and a pen, run on devices that weight 100 lbs. to ones that weight less than 1.5 lbs. Windows 8 runs thousands of touch capable apps and untold millions of desktop apps, just like Windows 7. Windows 8 can do all these things and yet somehow there is no choice?

When people say that Microsoft has taken away choice or forcing people into the new UI I think a large part of that group really means that Microsoft has taken away the familiar in the box and they want it back. I believe that is a much fairer and honest way to put it. In the debate over Windows 8 people constantly mention how others hate change but the authors of these statements ALWAYS say that they themselves have no problem with change, as long as it is not change for the sake of change. Of course. Not one real analyst is seeing but a PC market in relative decline. For the first time ever, there is nothing that any real analysts see that will bring robust growth to PCs. Not a Start Screen. Not even a Start Menu and Start Button. The future of the PC is in the greatest doubt since the term PC came to be. No, Windows 8 is not for the sake of change.

Windows 8 has its issues, needs work and without question has it's PR problems. But my guess if that 10% of those PR problems are from people that think that when Windows 8 boots to the Start Screen you have to go to the desktop to launch a desktop app.
 
Something I've been pondering for a while now is whether or not Microsoft has poisoned the watering hole that is Windows. They've caught flak for years against Windows, rightly and wrongly. The Windows brand is certainly well known but I would also say that it has had a continual decrease of public perception of the brand. Yeah, yeah, marketing talk but it has happened to brands before.

I would even go so far as to say that for many who love Windows 7, they do so in spite of it being Windows rather than because it is Windows. Microsoft's reputation has never been sparkly clean but I think in the past five years they've made a great deal of mistakes that have taken them back to the position they were in during the late 90s. It's a bad sign when your product is lauded by people who are surprised, if not outright shocked, that you've produced a good product. Yet that is how I typically hear people react to using Windows Phone. They use it and stare in wonderment that somehow Microsoft pulled off a good phone platform. Success should never be seen as an anomaly.

I don't know, perhaps I'm seeing the smoke from another fire but the amount of griping and complaining that I see of Microsoft's products, and especially Windows, has gone up tremendously since 2006. And it includes all of their products. Office, Windows, Xbox, Bing, and some that don't exist anymore like Zune. It's certainly not helped by them swapping names every few years, like MSN, Hotmail, Live, Zune, and others that I'm forgetting. It leaves people wondering where support will be in just a couple years time. Part of it, certainly, is that some never garnered the support Microsoft had hoped for in the first place, like Zune and Windows Mobile. But changing Zune to Xbox Music and related services never made since to me either. People associate Xbox with that monolith that sits in the living room, not a media service. It seems like Microsoft is stuck in a loop trying to do "me too!" with everything simultaneously, leaving the company without focus and with constant infighting between the various branches trying to garner the support of the higher ups and the all important money that brings.

Basically, I see Microsoft as trying to compete in so many divergent fields simultaneously that they're losing sight on the software that made them the empire that they are. And that has resulted in people becoming disillusioned with Microsoft and their products because of a perception of halfheartedness in their products.
 
RangerXML said:
Seems to be that any thread regarding anything Windows 8 turns into one of these clusters. Its the in thing right now on [H]ard to [H]ate on 8, good thing I'm not with the in kids.
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You know, there's obviously a reason why people hate Windows 8 so much, and continue to hate it long after the usual bitching period that happens whenever a new version of Windows comes out. It's really not usable or intuitive for most people. Yes, you might love it, but the reality is that most people don't.

Think about it, even when the last major overhaul to the PC interface, Windows 95, came out, few people bitched for this long. People were able to pick up on it and find the usefulness of the design. Aside from the initially perplexing "Click Start to Shut Down" paradigm, most people were able to pick up on it fairly easily.

That's just not the case with Windows 8. The design decisions are just jaw-dropping bizarre. Seriously, why would you deliberately place essential UI features in hidden corners of the screen? Why would you require your users to memorize cryptic keyboard combinations in order to work as efficiently as before? Why does switching between Metro and Desktop require a completely different set of behavior? Regular users don't have the time or inclination to commit these hidden shortcuts and features to memory, so every time they they need to use them, it's frustrating.

I see the disruptive nature of the disjointed interface and how much it frustrates users on a daily basis, and in every single instance, simply installing a Start Menu replacement instantly turned that hatred into almost universal acceptance of Windows 8.

How MS could have decided to so stubbornly force this UI on users is mind-boggling to me. And to think the solution for MS is so brain dead simple just makes the whole thing even more mind-boggling.
 
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Wrench00 said:
I have done lots of testing of Windows 8 and trust me the inconsistencies of GPO processing is enough to say fuck it.
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Windows 7 has the same problem, as far as I can tell. When we went from Vista to 7 on our domain all sorts of issues with GPO application cropped up.

Solution for Windows 7 was to disable asynchronous logon. Same solution works for 8.
 
Unknown-One said:
Windows 7 has the same problem, as far as I can tell. When we went from Vista to 7 on our domain all sorts of issues with GPO application cropped up.

Solution for Windows 7 was to disable asynchronous logon. Same solution works for 8.
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Funny you should have mentioned that I had never one single problem with 7. XP yes, never 7 but 8 just fucking drove me nuts.
 
MrCrispy said:
If the leaks about Blue (8.1) are true, Microsoft are going to backpedal and allow booting to desktop, bring back old start menu etc. They will try to spin it as things they couldn't do in the initial release, but its a result of the massive backlash.
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TBH I don't care how they spin it as long as they just do it. There are a number of improvements that make W8 and Server 2012 good OSes that just got stuck with a shitty UI.

For example, now more than ever most everything you can do with a keyboard and a mouse can be done with PowerShell in both W8 and Server 2012. Dedup in 2012 is awesome. There are a few other features that would make both better OSes than W7 and Server 2008, but the UI botched it.
 
Wrench00 said:
Funny you should have mentioned that I had never one single problem with 7. XP yes, never 7 but 8 just fucking drove me nuts.
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XP and Vista were flawless for us as far as GPO went. Microsoft allowed GPO application to run asynchronously of user logon (rather than forcing it to take place before the user logs into the workstation) for domain users starting with Windows 7. Caused all kinds of hell until we found the administrative template for turning that "feature" off.

Windows 8 obeys the same GPO, so we never really ran into this issue with it on our network. Problem was already solved :p
 
My problem with Windows 8? The fact that it feels like two different opperating systems running side-by-side, not communicating or sharing with each other. There is no excuse for this, and 'just use the desktop' is not a valid fix. If I open up a page in the Metro IE, I should be able to window that page and load it into the Desktop IE seamlessly, there should not be two control panels, two windows update applications, or two versions of IE; the whole point of Windows is WINDOWS. being able to run an application in a resizeable window, and swap between windows or even view both windows equally.

If Microsoft allowed the metro 'Apps' to run in a virtualized window on the desktop, and had the new desktop IE simply BE the metro version running in a window, I think a lot of people would be fine. The feel that it is two different OSes is hard to shake, though.
 
Monkey God said:
Its not their fault, it's only because people are scared of change.
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Simple question -

Why is it such a bad thing to simply give people what they want?

No one is suggesting that they remove Metro, but options are nice...
 
GotNoRice said:
Simple question -

Why is it such a bad thing to simply give people what they want?

No one is suggesting that they remove Metro, but options are nice...
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I love these Must change and be progressive BS...

I wonder all those evangelists for Change are also as open minded to things like Gay Marriage and such..

Most people are Hypocrites. They will change when its suits them.
 
The latest Windows "Blue" rumors to surface show that the Start button has returned ... but it still takes you to the Start Screen/Metro. That to me is not a solution because the keyboard Start button has always worked and taken you to Start screen, even in 8, Microsoft basically hasn't changed anything. They have just given us a button to press with the mouse rather than finger. Whoopty.
 
I would of said pun intended. Why they didn't just have a little option that said do you want to install in Desktop mode or Tablet mode?
 
I hate the charms I wish they would just stay on the fucking screen all the effin time. Pain in the ass in a windowed RDP session.
 
RangerXML said:
I would of said pun intended. Why they didn't just have a little option that said do you want to install in Desktop mode or Tablet mode?
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Because Microsoft understands their staff lacks the talent to develop an OS that entices you to makes changes, so they have no choice but to force it.

The other guys: Lets develop a fun OS that people will want to use
Microsoft: Lets develop a jarring and obtuse OS that starts Internet flame wars

The other guys: Lets make it really affordable and give it away free or little cost
Microsoft: Let's charge almost $100 for it.

The other guys: Lets design a UI to match how you use a device
Microsoft: People should change how you use a device to match our UI.

The other guys are winning.
 
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bigdogchris said:
The other guys: Lets develop a fun OS that people will want to use
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Steam users have certainly been picking up Windows 8 at a healthy clip, it's the #2 OS of Steam users currently. And 8 is a heck of a lot more fun on a tablet than 7.

bigdogchris said:
Microsoft: Lets develop a jarring and obtuse OS that starts Internet flame wars
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The internet flame wars may not have been such a bad idea. When was the last time this many people have so passionately expressed their view on a version of Windows about what is a in essence a philosophical discussion of the desktop versus the tablet? Sometimes progress requires argument and debate and disagreement when the answers are complex and not readily evident. I've personally learned some things in these debates, I think if people are honest about it there's something that probably a lot of people, on both sides of the argument have learned.

bigdogchris said:
The other guys: Lets make it really affordable and give it away free or little cost
Microsoft: Let's charge almost $100 for it.
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$40 upgrade price at launch for virtually every existing Windows user.

bigdogchris said:
The other guys: Lets design a UI to match how you use a device
Microsoft: People should change how you use a device to match our UI.
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This might be the biggest point of contention. Some people pick it up just fine with a mouse and keyboard, others don't obviously. The issue does need to be addresses to satisfy more of those who aren't fine with it I agree.
 
8 is not so bad once you have a start menu replacement, fix your defaults so that you never see any of the Metro style apps, and create a GOD Mode shortcut.
 
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