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More DLSS...

Blackstone said:
So if I do this override, does it matter whether in game DLSS is set to Quality or Balanced or does this override that?
Click to expand...
Quality levels/presets control scaling factor while model presets are basically different models which are used for upscaling.
With DLSSTweaks program it is possible to type different scaling factors assigned to Quality/Balanced/Performance presets to fine tune performance - including getting quality better than "Quality". For some games which for whatever reason didn't work with DLAA or 100% scaling factor it was possible to set 99% scaling factor.

It would be nice if it was also possible to tune quality factors in Nvidia app but apparently Nvidia fine-tunes DLSS for supported scaling factors so I doubt they will allow that. At least in some games we can force DLAA so that's nice.

Blackstone said:
How do I know what preset to use for DLSS override? If I want DLSS Tramsformer Model in Battlefield 2042 for example, is it “Latest” or Preset J or K or what? Where are the presets defined?
Click to expand...
Both K and J are Transformer models. J is one which Cyberpunk uses when you select Transformer and K is differently tuned. I guess you have to test them in games to see which one you like better.

noko said:
Looks like reflex 2 will warp the coordinates of the mouse or click to the game engine that it adequately allows non rendered frames to accurately represent game status. In other words you shoot at a target in a generated frame, Reflex 2 on the next rendered frame transposes the shot to where it would be on the rendered frame. Have to see how it works out.
Click to expand...
Feedback loop with the game engine seems like the best way to do it.
Typically game doesn't take that much time to update its world state compared to all the things related to actual graphics rendering. And then of course GPU takes its sweet time spitting the frame.
 
jobert said:
That link does not work for me. "There has been an error with your request."
Click to expand...
its you, works fine still
1738849621681.png
 
K looks fabulous in Battlefield 2042. At 4K with this model, DLAA, 1% lows still dip into the 80s but frames typically hover around 130-140. I kind of expected more with the 5090 but the subjective gameplay is experience is just excellent and my monitor is only 120Hz.

I wonder if frames would be better if the game supported DLSS 4 natively.
 
Blackstone said:
K looks fabulous in Battlefield 2042. At 4K with this model, DLAA, 1% lows still dip into the 80s but frames typically hover around 130-140. I kind of expected more with the 5090 but the subjective gameplay is experience is just excellent and my monitor is only 120Hz.

I wonder if frames would be better if the game supported DLSS 4 natively.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but probably not a ton. I think part of it is just that the new model takes more time to run, even on the 5090 and that some games just have issues with consistent frames. Jedi Survivor is always an example given where no matter what you did, there were some frame rate drops.

Personally I think the extra cost is worth it. On the 4090, it isn't much cost, and the improvement is nice. Though I will say with DLAA it can get hard to notice. I was playing with it in No Mans Sky, since that's my current obsession (every time they do a patch I get sucked back in) and the difference is minor, DLAA already looked real good.
 
Blackstone said:
K looks fabulous in Battlefield 2042. At 4K with this model, DLAA, 1% lows still dip into the 80s but frames typically hover around 130-140. I kind of expected more with the 5090 but the subjective gameplay is experience is just excellent and my monitor is only 120Hz.

I wonder if frames would be better if the game supported DLSS 4 natively.
Click to expand...
Does frame gen feel smoother on a 5090 compared to the 4090?
 
rhcliff said:
Does frame gen feel smoother on a 5090 compared to the 4090?
Click to expand...
I came from 3090 so I couldn't say. Also, Battlefield 2042 does not support frame gen of any kind.

It seems like Blackwell must be supported by the developer to really shine. I never thought path traced Cyberpunk would run faster than Battlefield 2042, but that is precisely the situation right now, at least subjectively to me, given the current state of those two games.

I'm curious to see what the February patch does for Indiana Jones when it drops.
 
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Blackstone said:
I came from 3090 so I couldn't say. Also, Battlefield 2042 does not support frame gen of any kind.

It seems like Blackwell must be supported by the developer to really shine. I never thought path traced Cyberpunk would run faster than Battlefield 2042, but that is precisely the situation right now, at least subjectively to me, given the current state of those two games.

I'm curious to see what the February patch does for Indiana Jones when it drops.
Click to expand...
Congrats, I thought that the jump from 3080 TI to 4090 was incredible so 3090>5090 must feel like a eye popping next-gen experience.
 
Blackstone said:
K looks fabulous in Battlefield 2042. At 4K with this model, DLAA, 1% lows still dip into the 80s but frames typically hover around 130-140. I kind of expected more with the 5090 but the subjective gameplay is experience is just excellent and my monitor is only 120Hz.

I wonder if frames would be better if the game supported DLSS 4 natively.
Click to expand...
I feel like a 5090 "should" do better in BF2042...? It has been a year since I fired it up, but on the 4090 I was getting low 90's for 1% and was pretty much always pegged at 144 FPS (monitors refresh rate) almost the entire time when playing. That was 4K, max settings with DLAA.
 
Last night I had my first real session with Diablo 4 and 5090 with Frame Gen, 4K, DLAA model K forced in driver. Frame Gen in app. I will run another session with frame gen off.

Just subjectively, this just plain gets it done. Frames in the high 100s and low to mid 200s. Image quality is mostly impeccable, and in really intense battles where 3090 would choke a bit, this thing is unstoppable. You kind of forget about the hardware and just get sucked into the game itself after a certain point. The improvement is consistent with what I expect from a two gen upgrade. I wouldn’t call it transformative, but it certainly is more immersive not having performance hitches during these very intense scenes.

There is a question in my mind as to whether image quality with frame gen is quite as good when moving at high speed on horse as pure raster, but I an also not used to seeing these kinds of high frame rates. It could be I am seeing motion blur that is actually a deliberate effect when moving on the horse at high speed.
III_Slyflyer_III said:
I feel like a 5090 "should" do better in BF2042...? It has been a year since I fired it up, but on the 4090 I was getting low 90's for 1% and was pretty much always pegged at 144 FPS (monitors refresh rate) almost the entire time when playing. That was 4K, max settings with DLAA.
Click to expand...
I’m going to test again. Subjectively, the experience in 2042 feels absolutely perfect. I’m also getting CPU temps around 87 and it is possible i’m getting some CPU throttling.

My sense is the driver needs some work. Also, I’ll have another look at my settings. I wasn’t benchmarking last night but after refreshing nvidia app settings and toggling a few things, I believe the 1% lows were much higher last night.
 
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BF2042 is heavily CPU bound on a 128 player server, and still a fair bit with 64 to be fair. Would not expect a 5090 to do much better than a 4090 on it.
 
Blackstone said:
Last night I had my first real session with Diablo 4 and 5090 with Frame Gen, 4K, DLAA model K forced in driver. Frame Gen in app. I will run another session with frame gen off.

Just subjectively, this just plain gets it done. Frames in the high 100s and low to mid 200s. Image quality is mostly impeccable, and in really intense battles where 3090 would choke a bit, this thing is unstoppable. You kind of forget about the hardware and just get sucked into the game itself after a certain point. The improvement is consistent with what I expect from a two gen upgrade. I wouldn’t call it transformative, but it certainly is more immersive not having performance hitches during these very intense scenes.

There is a question in my mind as to whether image quality with frame gen is quite as good when moving at high speed on horse as pure raster, but I an also not used to seeing these kinds of high frame rates. It could be I am seeing motion blur that is actually a deliberate effect when moving on the horse at high speed.

I’m going to test again. Subjectively, the experience in 2042 feels absolutely perfect. I’m also getting CPU temps around 87 and it is possible i’m getting some CPU throttling.

My sense is the driver needs some work. Also, I’ll have another look at my settings. I wasn’t benchmarking last night but after refreshing nvidia app settings and toggling a few things, I believe the 1% lows were much higher last night.
Click to expand...

If you're playing at 4K DLAA for every game, then frame-generation probably isn't that impressive most of the time.

Because 4K DLAA means that most games will be GPU bottlenecked. From my experience, frame-gen doesn't offer that much of a boost in GPU limited scenarios and the added latency might not even be worth it.

When using DLSS upscaling, especially performance mode, most games are more likely to be CPU limited. In those situations, the boost is usually much higher in terms of percentage. Subjectively it also feels smoother compared to frame-gen when the GPU is already working near 100%.
 
Will there be a hack for DLSS4 with full MFG on rtx4090/4080 cards? ..
 
revenant said:
Will there be a hack for DLSS4 with full MFG on rtx4090/4080 cards? ..
Click to expand...
40 series is now getting "smooth frames" feature... so maybe it is possible. I feel the 4090 would be fast enough for MFG, dunno about the other cards or 30 series though.
 
I've tried Lossless Scaling 4x frame gen on my 4090 and frame pacing is not consistent unless I cap the the base frame rate down to something that the GPU can maintain 100% of the time. I guess that's the issue the flip metering hardware in the 50-series solves.

Regardless, I'm sticking with my 4090 because my experience with DLSS 4 (transformer models and the more efficient 2x frame gen) is in, and of itself, an upgrade already. So much so I just don't really feel particularly compelled to upgrade to the 50-series just for MFG.
 
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So weirdly enough, once I installed the 5080 I have all of the DLSS overrides now. They were all "Not Supported" with my 3080, even though the 3080 supports DLSS4...
 
MavericK said:
So weirdly enough, once I installed the 5080 I have all of the DLSS overrides now. They were all "Not Supported" with my 3080, even though the 3080 supports DLSS4...
Click to expand...
Did you reinstall the driver? That may have done it. The 3xxx series does support dlss4 so if it wasn't showing up that was a bug.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Did you reinstall the driver? That may have done it. The 3xxx series does support dlss4 so if it wasn't showing up that was a bug.
Click to expand...
No...but I did end up doing a full DDU wipe afterwards because for whatever reason I was only getting about half the max frequency of the card. After DDU it's running at full speed. So that's something to look out for if anyone drops in a card, even if they're both Nvidia.
 
I still cant get the app to always show recent games. Sometimes I can play a game and then look in the app and it wont be there at all. If I manually add it then none of the settings I change actually get applied. I can use the old control panel and it always works and applies any per game settings just fine.
 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbTtQH4tIx8

It's not a long vid but his conclusion follows:

"So to cut a long story short: yes, you can achieve higher frame rates on 5080 with multiframe gen versus 4090 at 2x frame gen, but 4090 is delivering tolerable latency for this kind of game while for me 5080 has crossed a threshold. Over 90 milliseconds latency with frame rates well north of 120 frames per second is creating a disconnect that doesn't feel right. My take on it is simple multiframe generation can be great but tailoring settings to get a good base latency number is required. It also puts into perspective the idea of a 40 to 60 FPS threshold as being acceptable for frame generation. Alan Wake 2 compared to Cyberpunk is proving to me that that isn't really the number that we should be looking at. We need to be looking at having a good base latency before invoking frame generation and here's the thing, right -- as we've proven here, even with frame rates that are relatively similar, every game will have a different base latency."
 
Lateralus said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbTtQH4tIx8

It's not a long vid but his conclusion follows:

"So to cut a long story short: yes, you can achieve higher frame rates on 5080 with multiframe gen versus 4090 at 2x frame gen, but 4090 is delivering tolerable latency for this kind of game while for me 5080 has crossed a threshold. Over 90 milliseconds latency with frame rates well north of 120 frames per second is creating a disconnect that doesn't feel right. My take on it is simple multiframe generation can be great but tailoring settings to get a good base latency number is required. It also puts into perspective the idea of a 40 to 60 FPS threshold as being acceptable for frame generation. Alan Wake 2 compared to Cyberpunk is proving to me that that isn't really the number that we should be looking at. We need to be looking at having a good base latency before invoking frame generation and here's the thing, right -- as we've proven here, even with frame rates that are relatively similar, every game will have a different base latency."
Click to expand...

Sort of proves that Nvidia saying that the 5070 is going to be the “equivalent” of a 4090 is complete horse hockey. The latency hit to produce those “better” frame rates, even with the 5080, sort of shows that this comes at a big cost… might be fine for a strategy or slower game, but it is going to majorly suck for anything heavy action or VR related. I’d rate the 5080 as slightly inferior to the 4090, but still really good/better than anything else out there. So 5090 > 4090 > 5080.
 
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I was very tempted to grab that 5080 and see for myself but ended up not doing this. Some of the results on the 5080 with 4X are horrendous. Even overclocked using 2X it is slower than 4090 in the games I care about - like Stalker 2 so no point going through the hassle and suffering shitty drivers. Will wait for the 5090 pot luck.
 
LukeTbk said:
Every game-setting would have its own latency value, there is not some long story short going on here... they are just repeating the you need a good base latency numbers regardless of x2, x3, x4 mode being used.
Click to expand...


Pretty much what I figured. Native frame rate matters for a lot of things.

. . . . . . . . .


Online Gaming termporal gap:
In order to get the lowest peeker's advantage~ rubberband on a 128tick online gaming server, you need 128fpsHz as your minimum. For example, on a 128tick server, a 128fps solid player suffers a minimum of 72ms "peeker's advantage", and a 60fpsHz solid player on a 128tick server suffers a minimum of 100ms.


% accuracy of dlss+FG . . vs.. . % change between two native frames:
In order to get better performance (higher %accurate generated frames) from dlss and frame gen, and going forward into more multiples of frame +3 to +9, x4 to x10, it might turn out that you'd need to be at something like 100fps minimum / 120fpsHz average natively for better results.

Input lag for FG:
In order to get reasonable input lag, some might consider that at around 100fps minimum for (100fps) 10ms << (120fps) 8.3ms >> (140fps) 7.1ms frame duration. At 120fps average or so, you might get get 100fps minimum for 10ms.
By comparison, if your native frame rate graph hits 40 << 60 average >> 80fps, at 40fps minimum you might be looking at 25ms.


.

Despite the marketing of frame gen and high hz screens, it might end up that you can't get blood from a stone.

They are working on better input lag tech for DLSS though. I think there will be some growing pains but that it is the way forward as we get very high Hz OLEDs in the future.

.

Even if it's way better for something like 100fps minimum native fps as a sweet spot, the resulting benefits going forward for those rigs+settings, or specific games, etc. able to get 100fps minimum could be amazing on 480Hz to 1000Hz oleds, where you could cap the fpsHz beneath the lowest fps threshold.
e.g. 400fps capping on a 480Hz OLED where you are getting 100fps minimum natively with FGx4 applied -> 400fps solid, or capping fps just beneath the peak Hz of whatever very high HZ screen if exceeding it in your entire graph after FG is applied (when FG advances to higher multiples) . At that point, you also wouldn't need VRR because as far as the screen was concerned, your frame-rate would never change. That has other benefits, like the input lag not changing, and the pacing, and it would avoid VRR flicker on OLEDs.
 
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Indiana Jones Patch 3 is now live.

New Features​

NVIDIA DLSS 4​

Update 3 brings support for NVIDIA DLSS 4: a suite of rendering technologies that boosts framerates, increases performance, and improves image quality!
  • Players using supported NVIDIA hardware can enable Multi Frame Generation (3x, 4x) using the new transformer-based model
  • Ray Reconstruction increases the clarity and stability of ray-traced images
  • DLAA and DLSS Super Resolution have also been updated to the transformer-based model. These options when enabled enhance native and upscaled image quality, respectively

Ray-Traced Local Lights​

For players who have Path Tracing enabled, this update includes a new option for ray-traced shadows to include all light sources, which significantly increases the quality of shadows in interior locations. (Players can also choose to keep the previous setting, which provides ray-traced shadows from the sun only.)

Path Tracing (Full Ray Tracing) Support for AMD and Intel Graphics Cards​

This update brings Path Tracing to supported Intel and AMD GPUs. To use Path Tracing, your Intel or AMD graphics card must support Hardware Ray Tracing and have at least 16GB of VRAM. Please make sure to download the latest drivers from your GPU manufacturer!
Note that in foliage-dense locations, such as Sukhothai, reducing Vegetation Animation Quality below the “Ultra” settings can reduce the occasional shadow “popping” that may be seen on all graphics cards using Path Tracing.

FSR 3.1, including Frame Generation​

Update 3 adds support for AMD FSR 3.1 upscaling and frame generation technology.

Intel XESS 1.4​

Update 3 also adds support for Intel XESS 1.4 upscaling.

Quality of Life Updates​

  • Repair kits can now also be used by selecting them directly from the inventory (Rather than only by selecting your broken weapon or tool!)
 
Blackstone said:
Indiana Jones Patch 3 is now live.

New Features​

NVIDIA DLSS 4​

Update 3 brings support for NVIDIA DLSS 4: a suite of rendering technologies that boosts framerates, increases performance, and improves image quality!
  • Players using supported NVIDIA hardware can enable Multi Frame Generation (3x, 4x) using the new transformer-based model
  • Ray Reconstruction increases the clarity and stability of ray-traced images
  • DLAA and DLSS Super Resolution have also been updated to the transformer-based model. These options when enabled enhance native and upscaled image quality, respectively

Ray-Traced Local Lights​

For players who have Path Tracing enabled, this update includes a new option for ray-traced shadows to include all light sources, which significantly increases the quality of shadows in interior locations. (Players can also choose to keep the previous setting, which provides ray-traced shadows from the sun only.)

Path Tracing (Full Ray Tracing) Support for AMD and Intel Graphics Cards​

This update brings Path Tracing to supported Intel and AMD GPUs. To use Path Tracing, your Intel or AMD graphics card must support Hardware Ray Tracing and have at least 16GB of VRAM. Please make sure to download the latest drivers from your GPU manufacturer!
Note that in foliage-dense locations, such as Sukhothai, reducing Vegetation Animation Quality below the “Ultra” settings can reduce the occasional shadow “popping” that may be seen on all graphics cards using Path Tracing.

FSR 3.1, including Frame Generation​

Update 3 adds support for AMD FSR 3.1 upscaling and frame generation technology.

Intel XESS 1.4​

Update 3 also adds support for Intel XESS 1.4 upscaling.

Quality of Life Updates​

  • Repair kits can now also be used by selecting them directly from the inventory (Rather than only by selecting your broken weapon or tool!)
Click to expand...
Nice, i have this game on my wishlist, glad I waited I guess!
 
III_Slyflyer_III said:
I'm sure I can google this... but like what? I can certainly wait, it's on my radar, just not a rush.
Click to expand...
Well they still need a few bug fixes but they're going to add stuff like RTX hair and other features. They talked about this in the past so I essentially think they're going to be sort of like Alan Wake 2 and Cyberpunk in working with Nvidia. And there's going to be some DLC released later this year too. If you want to play it now you certainly can but there's nothing wrong with waiting a little longer.
 
Blackstone said:
All you have to do is spend 10 minutes with Indiana Jones Patch 3 and 5090 to see where this is all going.

With everything maxed, path tracing, ray reconstruction, 4k, DLSS quality, the base frame rate is like 55 FPS in Indiana Jones and it feels not at all good. Nothing feels good at 55 fps. Looks great. Add MFG 3x and now you are more like 120 fps with 24-25ms of latency, and now it feels good, almost great. It certainly feels more responsive than the 55 real fps, but not quite as good as real 110-120 fps. Push the power slider up from 100 to 104 on the GPU and you FEEL the difference because you get a few more base frames and your latency drops 1-2 ms accordingly. That is how on the margins we are. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. So not only does DLSS 4 really work, but you actually kind of NEED it. The problem is, we also NEED more rasterization performance.

So where does that leave us? I think in any game where you can get a base frame rate of 55-70 fps, you can kick on MFG and have a really good experience that is much closer to 120 fps than 55fps in overall presentation and feel. But what happens when you drop below that 55fps? My sense is there is little to no headroom here. Even one game more demanding than Indiana Jones will bring 5090 to its knees. That is because latency will start to creep up to more perceptible levels, and before you know it you are in "I need a new card" territory even though your frame counter reads 120 fps. It isn't a scam, not even close--the gains from MFG are real and they are huge, but it also is not a solution for a lack of raw ray tracing and raster performance to address path tracing workloads.

In other words, if you get 5090, you will absolutely want a 6090. You ain't gonna be skipping a generation. We are back to a place where throw down a huge chunk of money for a card and need to OC the shit out of it on day zero. It isn't NVIDIA's fault--path tracing was a pipe dream until recently and they have an innovative solution. But budget accordingly. If path tracing is going to be a thing, every last base frame counts.
Click to expand...
It sounds like there needs to be a dynamic multiplier for Frame Gen. Exceed a certain acceptable frame time and you drop from, say, 3x FG to 2.5x (hopefully in a way that's not jarring). I'm sure this is technically difficult or they would already be doing it, but I would expect this to happen eventually.
 
arthur_tuxedo said:
It sounds like there needs to be a dynamic multiplier for Frame Gen. Exceed a certain acceptable frame time and you drop from, say, 3x FG to 2.5x (hopefully in a way that's not jarring). I'm sure this is technically difficult or they would already be doing it, but I would expect this to happen eventually.
Click to expand...
That would be nice. Of course in the long run what I'm hoping is we'll have monitors with such a high refresh rate that you just always run with a lot of framegen because tearing isn't an issue.
 
Sycraft said:
That would be nice. Of course in the long run what I'm hoping is we'll have monitors with such a high refresh rate that you just always run with a lot of framegen because tearing isn't an issue.
Click to expand...
Just saw a deal on a 480hz 2560x1440 oled panel for $750. Now if only it were 4k :D, I'd want it! I'm all in on the idea of framegen and am finding it great for me in the games I have tried it on (2x framegen as I don't have a 5xxx series card).
 
GoldenTiger said:
Just saw a deal on a 480hz 2560x1440 oled panel for $750. Now if only it were 4k :D, I'd want it! I'm all in on the idea of framegen and am finding it great for me in the games I have tried it on (2x framegen as I don't have a 5xxx series card).
Click to expand...
I imagine they'll come around in the next year or two. The two issues holding back current gen OLEDs are DisplayPort bandwidth and scaler processing power. DP bandwidth has been solved with DP 2.1, and the next generation of scalers that will launch soon should hopefully be powerful enough to do what is needed for 4k 480Hz. Near as I know the panels themselves aren't the limiting factor, it is all the stuff that drives them.
 
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