Mass Effect 3 SPOILERS THREAD

spacing guild said:
I just wanted to know why so many other people hated the ending so much.
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That would be because EA/BW sold us a bill of goods going all the way back to ME1 that all the choices made throughout the entire series would matter in how things would eventually end, and that we would not be stuck with a simple A-B-C choice.

Guess what? It was all bullshit and what did we get? An A-B-C choice about as stupid as it could get.

THAT would be why most of us are unhappy with how things ended.

Take all the major decisions in ME1 and ME2 and mix and match em any way you want, and it won't change the final 3 choices we were given, which was exactly what they always told us wouldn't be the case.

It was all lies and bullshit. If you don't mind that, I'm sure EA would love more of your money. Me? They won't get another nickel out of me ever again.

If you want to get educated more on it, check out this thread....

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1

This part stands out....

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”
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Pure bullshit.
 
J W said:
It's tough to tell who's being sarcastic here, but I never understood Dan's posts to be condemnations of the "borrowed" stories. More like, the BioWare writers deserve props for having incorporating so much from so many different sources. Inspiration more than anything, really. Of course BioWare's content can't be completely original. I think everyone pretty much agrees on that (again, I can't tell about the sarcasm, so I may be way off).
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It's just a bummer when they incorporate shit like the Matrix story line.
 
J W said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wisHcuBzTCM&list=UUecc5aSzaHp_NNauglFlzcw&index=1&feature=plpp_video

That should explain everything.
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lol. Wasn't the idea to leave the younger races to evolve then add their distinctiveness to the Borg, um, reaper collective for the next cycle? So synthethics won't take over for good, just like every 50,000 years or something?

It's ...um...not an optimal point for the story I agree. But it gave hope that there could be a resolution without outright defeating the reapers by military or by a superweapon. I always got the feeling throughout ME3 that the story was trying to tell you that the reapers couldn't be defeated, like the machines in the Matrix. I had a feeling that what I was doing in the game was ultimately futile in terms of absolute victory, but it just fueled my curiosity on how it was going to end. It actually made the game more compelling to me....that hope against hope type of feeling, fighting when there's nothing left to fight for. It reminded me of the end of ChapterHouse Dune...when the whole universe you knew and understood for five books prior was slowly being decimated before your eyes, planets being destroyed one by one and there was nothing the protagonists could do about it. No messiah to save the day.
 
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This kinda sums it up. ;)

Taken from the 2300+ page thread on the BW forums.....

IhOjP.png
 
Limahl said:
Pure bullshit.
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No kidding. They lied about it (more than once too) and it was a step back from the previous game in terms of your choices mattering in a big way. I mean in ME2 your choices changed the endings to anything from everyone dies, including Shepard and Joker leaves alone, to no one left behind. All that planet scanning felt a little more worth it when you saved everyone :).

There's also the point that it provides no closure, at all. The whole ides of an ending is just that: It ends, you get some closure. People like that in real life too. That is one of the reasons they try to get confessions and so on in criminal cases. Like Hans Reiser. They got him on murder, he was convicted, going away for life. Done. However they gave him a slightly reduced sentence in return for him showing them where the body was. Why? To give her family closure, so they didn't have to wonder, so they knew what had happened. In real life we can't always have closure, of course, but in stories we can so let's have it. Goes double when it is a story where you are supposed to have invested in the characters.

Also people DO like good endings. It is just how we are. I find it rare that someone is actually in to bad endings. There are people who like to look all "hardcore" and claim they love bad endings, but I go and look at their DVD collection and that doesn't seem to be borne out.

Any one of those might have been more forgiven. If there were nothing but bad endings, but your choices did heavily influence them and they all brought closure, even if it sucked. People would have been more ok with that. They also would have been ok with a story book ending that was good and happy and brought closure, but your choices didn't matter, annoyed that they lied, but ok.

The problem was that all these things were wrong. They lied about your choices, they didn't matter at all, you got zero closure, and all outcomes sucked. Plenty to be pissed about there.

It really did kill the series for me, unfortunately. My original plan was to do an immediate full replay. 1 and 2 I replayed again after beating them. My plan with 3 was to go back to 1 and do a full renegade replay from the start, making the opposite kind of choices most of the time, to see what happened different. I was excited. After this, all 3 are off my system, not in some kind of silly protest but because I've no desire to play them. I'm done, I play other games instead.
 
spacing guild said:
Yeah... Dan D never mentioned how the story borrowed from other stories. No offense to him, but it's been a complaint.
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Sure I did. I just didn't complain about it. Honestly Mass Effect borrows a lot from many sources, but it's how those are presented, combined with the characters that make it great. There is some fairly original material in there too, but it's all in the details. Basic concepts are founded in other science fiction works. It's pretty hard not to create similarities between one science fiction IP and another for the simple fact that tons of stuff exists out there and most everything the human mind can imagine already has been in broad terms.

spacing guild said:
And I was thinking about the big picture, unlike you whose feeble mindedness hinged on irrelevant details instead of seeing the larger pattern.
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The big picture is made of smaller pictures. Pictures you evidently can't see. That's fine I guess, but the insults and personal attacks need to stop. We aren't feeble minded just because we don't share your point of view. I can't fathom how anyone could like the endings to this game, but I'm not insulting you just because you can't see what we see.

Sycraft said:
Also people DO like good endings. It is just how we are. I find it rare that someone is actually in to bad endings. There are people who like to look all "hardcore" and claim they love bad endings, but I go and look at their DVD collection and that doesn't seem to be borne out.
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Agreed. I've noticed this as well. I'd be lying if I said I wanted Mass Effect 3 to have a bad ending or that I thought it needed to end on a dark or depressing note. I don't think it does. Actually I think your decisions should be able to lead you down darker paths, and better ones. If you are going to shove one ending down our throats, let it be a good ending that the bulk of us can digest. One that hopefully leaves things open for contiuations with other characters if not Shepard. Don't just say fuck it and blow everything and everyone up to restart the cycle again. There is ultimately nothing satisfying about that.
 
Whether you just plain dislike the ending, or buy into the IT "it was all a dream" get-out clause, or the Emperor's New Clothes belief that you somehow understand the story better than everyone who thinks it sucks, the fact is it was very badly done, both on its own merits but more importantly compared with everything that went before it. They've proven they can do it right, so it's hard to fathom where they went off the rails this time round. Whatever the "truth" of the ending, they simply could have written it better.
 
Dan_D said:
Agreed. I've noticed this as well. I'd be lying if I said I wanted Mass Effect 3 to have a bad ending or that I thought it needed to end on a dark or depressing note. I don't think it does. Actually I think your decisions should be able to lead you down darker paths, and better ones. If you are going to shove one ending down our throats, let it be a good ending that the bulk of us can digest. One that hopefully leaves things open for contiuations with other characters if not Shepard. Don't just say fuck it and blow everything and everyone up to restart the cycle again. There is ultimately nothing satisfying about that.
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Ya my most preferred situation would have been like ME2, but maybe even more variation. Basically you could have anything from "The Reaper's win, the galaxy is fucked a failure = YUO, try harder try again," all the way up to "You decided to kick Reaper ass so completely you installed asses on them first, just to kick them, then killed them, then peed on them. The galaxy is saved, a new period of harmony and cooperation between species starts, you get to finally retire and have a good life," with everything in between. Make the choices matter in terms of how well you do against the reapers, what the situation is like after the battle (do various racers start at each other or do they live and let live), what companions do and who is alive and so on.

Barring that, I want my basic heroic ending. If I only get one ending with minor variations, I wanna be the hero, save the day, get some closure, and call it good. I'd much rather have the varied endings, I'd replay the game to see them all, including the bad ones, but I can deal with one WINNAR = YUO ending that gives closure.

As it stands, I am just pissed as hell. Like I said, ruined the series for me, which I didn't think could happen because I really liked them. I was just real, real invested in the characters (that is what makes a story good to me) and the total emo "Everything is bad all the time and no we won't even give you closure," shit just was too much.
 
Maplehamwich said:
This video says a lot of what people in this thread are disgruntled about. Including some cross series plot holes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M0Cf864P7E (edit: was beat by q-bz on that one)

Also:

I'm pretty sure when you entered the thread you started the personal attacks. Don't play innocent.
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Yeah...I see some of those details...those discrepancies. I was wondering how Joker made it out myself. I didn't care. I guess he saw the reapers being hit with something cataclysmic turned tail and ran for it. Did he know what happened to Shepard? For your own safety and the safety of the remaining crew, wouldn't you run if had to if you saw that there was nothing more you could do? And by the time the reapers were controlled or whatever, I am guessing that most of assembled fleet was decimated. Turians can't eat human food? Come on. I'm sure they could have scrounged something up for them.

I think reason number 7 tells it all.

He says it's not the biggest reason that people hated the ending, but I think it is.

You guys simply wanted a happier ending. You wanted to see fireworks over Coruscant. with every one celebrating the defeat of the reapers. You wanted a payoff for your work. Not green or red or blue explosions or whatever that you got to chose. You wanted to see that the war assets you assembled made a difference. You wanted to know about the fate of other characters, the other races that joined the fight. In my version, I chose to not cure the genophage. I already knew what was going to happen to the Krogans regardless. But I see those points.

I just didn't care. To me, the story was always about Shepard. Did the other races, did the whole of humanity see the reapers as a threat before it was too late? No?...so fuck 'em. Shep did what he could. I saw the larger idea of what Bioware was going for half-way through the game and went with it. I knew the war assets menu was bogus from jump street.

Also, I always see guys on the forums saying how they "beat the game." I think the ending of ME3 plays into that false pride.

lol. You defeat what they want you to defeat in a story-telling game.

You want to beat a game? Beat level 25 of Tetris or something.:rolleyes:
 
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spacing guild said:
Yeah...I see some of those details...those discrepancies. I was wondering how Joker made it out myself. I didn't care. I guess he saw the reapers being hit with something cataclysmic turned tail and ran for it. Did he know what happened to Shepard? For your own safety and the safety of the remaining crew, wouldn't you run if had to if you saw that there was nothing more you could do? And by the time the reapers were controlled or whatever, I am guessing that most of assembled fleet was decimated. Turians can't eat human food? Come on. I'm sure they could have scrounged something up for them.

I think reason number 7 tells it all.

He says it's not the biggest reason that people hated the ending, but I think it is.

You guys simply wanted a happier ending. You wanted to see fireworks over Coruscant. with every one celebrating the defeat of the reapers. You wanted a payoff for your work. Not green or red or blue explosions or whatever that you got to chose. You wanted to see that the war assets you assembled made a difference. You wanted to know about the fate of other characters, the other races that joined the fight. In my version, I chose to not cure the genophage. I already knew what was going to happen to the Krogans regardless. But I see those points.

I just didn't care. To me, the story was always about Shepard. Did the other races, did the whole of humanity see the reapers as a threat before it was too late? No...so fuck 'em. Shep did what he could. I saw the larger idea of what Bioware was going for half-way through the game and went with it. I knew the war assets menu was bogus from jump street.

Also, I always see guys on the forums saying how they "beat the game." I think the ending of ME3 plays into that false pride.

lol. You defeat what they want you to defeat in a story-telling game.

You want to beat a game? Beat level 25 of Tetris or something.:rolleyes:
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I've gotten up to about level 18 or so on the original GB Tetris. Dude, that shit is fast lol. Most points I did ever have though was about 340K+.
 
spacing guild said:
Yeah...I see some of those details...those discrepancies. I was wondering how Joker made it out myself. I didn't care. I guess he saw the reapers being hit with something cataclysmic turned tail and ran for it. Did he know what happened to Shepard? For your own safety and the safety of the remaining crew, wouldn't you run if had to if you saw that there was nothing more you could do? And by the time the reapers were controlled or whatever, I am guessing that most of assembled fleet was decimated. Turians can't eat human food? Come on. I'm sure they could have scrounged something up for them.

I think reason number 7 tells it all.

He says it's not the biggest reason that people hated the ending, but I think it is.

You guys simply wanted a happier ending. You wanted to see fireworks over Coruscant. with every one celebrating the defeat of the reapers. You wanted a payoff for your work. Not green or red or blue explosions or whatever that you got to chose. You wanted to see that the war assets you assembled made a difference. You wanted to know about the fate of other characters, the other races that joined the fight. In my version, I chose to not cure the genophage. I already knew what was going to happen to the Krogans regardless. But I see those points.

I just didn't care. To me, the story was always about Shepard. I saw the larger idea of what Bioware was going for half-way through the game and went with it. I knew the war assets menu was bogus from jump street.

Also, I always see guys on the forums saying how they "beat the game." I think the ending of ME3 plays into that false pride.

lol. You defeat what they want you to defeat in a story-telling game.

You want to beat a game? Beat level 25 of Tetris or something.:rolleyes:
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Well, nice that you can just dismiss the legit issues that others bring up and decide it is only one thing. So I'll do the same with you: I don't think you really liked the ending. I think you pretend to because you think it makes you look hardcore. You want to be "the guy" who was so hard that he didn't WANT a good ending, he liked it all dark and shit. That's not really how you feel, but you want to project that on the forums.

See how that works? Kinda annoying, isn't it? Maybe stop doing it to others.

Seriously man, you need to knock it off with the attacking everyone for their opinion. You might want to really consider it now that Dan has warned you (look at his title, he's staff). People are entitled to their opinion and to their reason for it. You seem to want to hate on everyone because they have a different opinion, and then dismiss said opinion as invalid.

Sure, Bioware can, and did, decide how they want to present the story. That's their right. It is my right to speak my mind on it, and to choose to not buy any DLC or new games from them if I wish. I am not required to sit quietly and say "Everything you did is wonderful, I support it no matter what."

Oh and FYI, Tetris is a game you can't beat. It simply gets faster and faster, and eventually no matter what your reactions there is a block sequence that cannot be dealt with (at least in the original Tetris). It is a game of testing limits, not one of defined ending.
 
I got the impression that you would be able to survive the final mission if you did everything right. It seems like there were several conversation options where you could basically say, "Let's kick Reaper tail first." This was the case with Dr. Chakwas and her brandy.

Everything still points to indoctrination anyway. It just now dawned on me what the Arrival DLC and the Reaper artifact within it could mean.

Too much about indoctrination fits within the rest of the story. The big question is whether BioWare expected us to catch on or whether BioWare expected to have to reveal it. I think they always planned to eventually reveal it, but I think they also wanted us to be confused to a certain extent at first (and ask ourselves, "what does this mean?"). They made it mystical enough to do that.

Also, the "high science fiction" argument is trash. No offense. ME3 sold 900,000 copies on the first day? I'd imagine a vast percentage of those people don't sit around and read scifi books from the 50s. EA/BioWare does not envision its customer base as the high-brow, "let's go to the art show, but let me grab my scarf -- it's fifty degrees outside!" type.
 
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spacing guild said:
Yeah...I see some of those details...those discrepancies. I was wondering how Joker made it out myself. I didn't care. I guess he saw the reapers being hit with something cataclysmic turned tail and ran for it. Did he know what happened to Shepard? For your own safety and the safety of the remaining crew, wouldn't you run if had to if you saw that there was nothing more you could do? And by the time the reapers were controlled or whatever, I am guessing that most of assembled fleet was decimated. Turians can't eat human food? Come on. I'm sure they could have scrounged something up for them.

I think reason number 7 tells it all.

He says it's not the biggest reason that people hated the ending, but I think it is.

You guys simply wanted a happier ending. You wanted to see fireworks over Coruscant. with every one celebrating the defeat of the reapers. You wanted a payoff for your work. Not green or red or blue explosions or whatever that you got to chose. You wanted to see that the war assets you assembled made a difference. You wanted to know about the fate of other characters, the other races that joined the fight. In my version, I chose to not cure the genophage. I already knew what was going to happen to the Krogans regardless. But I see those points.

I just didn't care. To me, the story was always about Shepard. Did the other races, did the whole of humanity see the reapers as a threat before it was too late? No?...so fuck 'em. Shep did what he could. I saw the larger idea of what Bioware was going for half-way through the game and went with it. I knew the war assets menu was bogus from jump street.

Also, I always see guys on the forums saying how they "beat the game." I think the ending of ME3 plays into that false pride.

lol. You defeat what they want you to defeat in a story-telling game.

You want to beat a game? Beat level 25 of Tetris or something.:rolleyes:
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so basically what you're saying is, you completely agree, but for some reason we're not supposed to discuss it. we should all give bioware unconditional praise, with zero frame of reference in the sequel to a 3 part series.

again, why are you here and what is your point, people are going to talk about it no matter how you choose to spin your apathy.

Sycraft said:
Ya my most preferred situation would have been like ME2, but maybe even more variation. Basically you could have anything from "The Reaper's win, the galaxy is fucked a failure = YUO, try harder try again," all the way up to "You decided to kick Reaper ass so completely you installed asses on them first, just to kick them, then killed them, then peed on them. The galaxy is saved, a new period of harmony and cooperation between species starts, you get to finally retire and have a good life," with everything in between. Make the choices matter in terms of how well you do against the reapers, what the situation is like after the battle (do various racers start at each other or do they live and let live), what companions do and who is alive and so on.

Barring that, I want my basic heroic ending. If I only get one ending with minor variations, I wanna be the hero, save the day, get some closure, and call it good. I'd much rather have the varied endings, I'd replay the game to see them all, including the bad ones, but I can deal with one WINNAR = YUO ending that gives closure.

As it stands, I am just pissed as hell. Like I said, ruined the series for me, which I didn't think could happen because I really liked them. I was just real, real invested in the characters (that is what makes a story good to me) and the total emo "Everything is bad all the time and no we won't even give you closure," shit just was too much.
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my thinking exactly, me2 was the epitome of choice. there may have been only a few "best" ways to do it, but dozens of other variations of "just as good", depending on how you chose to play the game. all of this accomplished without relying on any of the subplots along the way, while still keeping them integral to the story. it was simple, you do the missions and get the support, or choose to ignore them and find another way, at the cost of changing the outcome or losing characters. you can tell they had planned to continue this mo in me3 or at least for future dlc, since it's possible for your squadmates to die in the final push, even though they do absolutely nothing with this data. this in fact is the only possible way for liara to die in the whole game.

it all goes back to multiplayer, and their decision to force it upon the entire game. in their quest to impose the concept of "play mp or you fail the galaxy", they failed on core gameplay and a coherent story. they just could not or would not figure out a way to do it without making compromises, something we could all safely assume would be easy going by their previous mo.

an interesting flag found in the save files, to understand where they might have been going with this (found in your NewGamePlusSave.pcsav), and what they intend to do later:

[End Game State]: <LivedToFightAgain><OutInABlazeOfGlory><NotFinished>
- >4k ems gets you the best state no matter what, even if you don't see the final cutscene that requires >50% readiness
 
You do know you can get the "good" (lol) endings without playing any MP or apps at all, right? You have to get absolutely everything possible, but it is possible.
 
The troll is just trolling (spacingguild).

She/He is stirring the pot. When presented with debate/information she/he ignores and attacks with insults...
 
ValeTudo said:
The troll is just trolling (spacingguild).

She/He is stirring the pot. When presented with debate/information she/he ignores and attacks with insults...
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Yeah that's my conclusion as well.
 
Couple of things I just read about that I found interesting for the IDT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifN-HXPhFeQ

Looks like the planet everyone lands on at the end, could mean everything at the end of the game is being pulled from Shepards memories...The citadel walls that look like the Shadow Broker ship (Specifically pointed out by Liara when going through that section), there's the planet (Specifically mentioned by the Hammerhead you're driving as a "pleasing view" during the Overlord DLC), and of course Spacebrat.

Seems to me that ME2 DLC is specifically pointing out stuff that may be important to understand what's going on later.

And also this...
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Klencory

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.
Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. He claims that a vision of a higher being told him to seek on Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light." These entities were supposedly created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic "machine devils."

Shol has been excavating on Klencory's toxic surface for two decades, at great expense. No government has valued the world enough to evict his small army of mercenaries.
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If one believes in the IDT, then you could see it this way (someone on BSN)...
But ok I will take the time and explain what I mean:

Imagine if a Reaper tries to indoctrinate somebody, it always ends up to some sort of illusion. Shol met Souvereign and of course got indoctrinated -.-
Imagine, the Reaper is going through your mind to built up the illusion. If u read the books you know
everything I said so far is fact.
Of course Shol wasn't talking to the ghostly boy. The Reapers take from the memories, what might affect the person the most, In his case it might be a massive ghostly pot filled with gold (joke) who told him the story: We are the Reapers, we come along every 50000 years to protect organics, not to get killed by synthetics. (machine devils)
Same as Saren he gets indoctrinated and tries to help the Reapers to come back.

Any questions?

PS: 1. Shol is a key person, billionär and one of the first person who found Souvereign, he simply got replaced by Saren at the end of the first book.
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Not proof, but pretty good evidence. Hopefully 1 more week until we know the truth :cool:
 
Colonel Sanders said:
You do know you can get the "good" (lol) endings without playing any MP or apps at all, right? You have to get absolutely everything possible, but it is possible.
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No, it is not possible.

http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/323/index/10481662/13

Straight out of the game's config files, max possible war assets, even adding some things that are probably not possible within the game is 7824, with 50% effectiveness that becomes 3612. You need 4000 or 5000 effectiveness for Shep to "live" in the destroy ending.

So that's just yet another lie :p
 
stewartjm said:
No, it is not possible.

http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/323/index/10481662/13

Straight out of the game's config files, max possible war assets, even adding some things that are probably not possible within the game is 7824, with 50% effectiveness that becomes 3612. You need 4000 or 5000 effectiveness for Shep to "live" in the destroy ending.

So that's just yet another lie :p
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I actually think I hit the maximum effective war assets for single player. Stupid MP tie-in doesn't make me want to make the effort just to get the "best" ending(s).
 
Colonel Sanders said:
You do know you can get the "good" (lol) endings without playing any MP or apps at all, right? You have to get absolutely everything possible, but it is possible.
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read the thread? you obviously haven't done it since this is technically impossible, the final "shep lives" ending will not unlock without >50% ems. cannot be done even by cheating, they went through great lengths to prevent this.

- total war assets amount to 3800/7600 (if you collect them all normally)
- modifier locked to 50% without mp
- last cutscene is hardcoded to check the modifier itself, not ems value
 
I do think BioWare ran out of time, which seems to be the current "moderate" theory among fans. However, I think it was always intended that Shepard was indoctrinated at the end; I think BioWare ran out of time to make this overly obvious, unfortunately. Since they didn't have the time to make everything perfect at first, I think they've been forced to make some concessions as far as what they can do or say post release.

Notice that BioWare has yet to refute the indoctrination theory. This is in contrast to all the other theories/rumors which have been quickly derided and discounted. Yet, the indoctrination theory always garners a coy reaction from BioWare. There's also evidence that one particular BioWare twitterer referred to the Indoctrination thread as a means to explaining the ending.
 
J W said:
I do think BioWare ran out of time, which seems to be the current "moderate" theory among fans. However, I think it was always intended that Shepard was indoctrinated at the end; I think BioWare ran out of time to make this overly obvious, unfortunately. Since they didn't have the time to make everything perfect at first, I think they've been forced to make some concessions as far as what they can do or say post release.

Notice that BioWare has yet to refute the indoctrination theory. This is in contrast to all the other theories/rumors which have been quickly derided and discounted. Yet, the indoctrination theory always garners a coy reaction from BioWare. There's also evidence that one particular BioWare twitterer referred to the Indoctrination thread as a means to explaining the ending.
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Yup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
 
In regards to the IDT...among other things, what really sells it as legit to me is the fact that in the final race towards the beam, the scenery is that from your recurring nightmare throughout the game. The burned out trees, etc.
 
TwistedAegis said:
In regards to the IDT...among other things, what really sells it as legit to me is the fact that in the final race towards the beam, the scenery is that from your recurring nightmare throughout the game. The burned out trees, etc.
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So its possible that indoctrination started from the first nightmare sequence? The sound of a Reaper laser beam was in all of them, too.
 
TwistedAegis said:
In regards to the IDT...among other things, what really sells it as legit to me is the fact that in the final race towards the beam, the scenery is that from your recurring nightmare throughout the game. The burned out trees, etc.
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CrimsonKnight13 said:
So its possible that indoctrination started from the first nightmare sequence? The sound of a Reaper laser beam was in all of them, too.
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Hmmm....good points!
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
So its possible that indoctrination started from the first nightmare sequence? The sound of a Reaper laser beam was in all of them, too.
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I don't think so, otherwise the game would have played out much differently if you were being indoctrinated that strongly that early. I simply think the indoctrination takes the dread that is in your mind and plays on it. The Reapers couldn't have known Shepard would be at that place at that time, so they couldn't have fed the imagery to him - it would have to be vice versa.
 
TwistedAegis said:
I don't think so, otherwise the game would have played out much differently if you were being indoctrinated that strongly that early. I simply think the indoctrination takes the dread that is in your mind and plays on it. The Reapers couldn't have known Shepard would be at that place at that time, so they couldn't have fed the imagery to him - it would have to be vice versa.
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That doesn't mean the influence wasn't beginning to take effect. He may not have been under their control yet. Indoctrination means that a person is being "taught" to see a certain perspective without question. If they started on him early, he starts becoming convinced that every choice he makes will help defeat/destroy the Reapers but instead it may be possible that he's beginning to think more like a higher functioning indoctrinated thrawl than anything else (Saren was an example of this... he thought he was controlling Sovereign but instead it was he who was slowly succumbing to the way of the Reapers). Sure, everything was taking its toll on Shepard but it sure did seem like a precursor to the ending(s).

Edit: Plus, its suspect that since Shepard is partially synthetic now, he is very much like the Illusive Man & what Saren became. They all have/had synthetics built-in, which make them very powerful "allies" to the Reapers. The Illusive Man wound up getting the augmented eyes & huge understanding of Reaper tech by trying to help a friend who became a higher functioning husk (was able to think outside of the indoctrination when the control was disrupted temporarily).
 
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PureBooYah said:
Yup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
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"No one else can see the child" is a bit spurious. At most you can say "nobody does anything to visibly acknowledge the child", but the fact that nobody helps him on doesn't mean he's invisible, considering everyone around him is shooting at/getting shot at by big oogly boogly monsters.

I'm tempted to believe it, but I'm more tempted it's an attempt at retconning some sense into the story/damage control by BioWare. A lot of it can just as easily be explained as "shitty writing", something we know them to be capable of. We don't yet knew them to be capable of something this intriguing.

The eye thing I just thought was part of the cerberus synthetic implants, since they're visibly like that since the outset of ME2 and get worse along with the rest of your scarring if you play an unhealed renegade shepard. I also saw, when the indoctrination theory started doing the rounds, BioWare releases stating categorically that it was the case. However, I can't find them any more, which is leading me to believe even more that they've gone the "holy shit, why didn't we think of that?" route, redacted those comments and are instead trying to claw back some credibility.

Too much too tenuous and contrived, I'm afraid. Still, open-minded about it.

OH GOD THAT COSPLAY SHIT AT THE END OF THE VIDEO I FEEL SO BAD FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED
 
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CrimsonKnight13 said:
So its possible that indoctrination started from the first nightmare sequence? The sound of a Reaper laser beam was in all of them, too.
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I believe the process of indoctrination starts there and is at the climax when you make your choice.

There are audio logs and other clues that shows when someone is in the process of being indoctrinated they see dreams exactly like Shepard is having. And with this information that I posted on the previous page....

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Klencory

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.
Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. He claims that a vision of a higher being told him to seek on Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light." These entities were supposedly created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic "machine devils."

Shol has been excavating on Klencory's toxic surface for two decades, at great expense. No government has valued the world enough to evict his small army of mercenaries.
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If one believes in the IDT, then you could see it this way (someone on BSN)...
But ok I will take the time and explain what I mean:

Imagine if a Reaper tries to indoctrinate somebody, it always ends up to some sort of illusion. Shol met Souvereign and of course got indoctrinated -.-
Imagine, the Reaper is going through your mind to built up the illusion. If u read the books you know
everything I said so far is fact.
Of course Shol wasn't talking to the ghostly boy. The Reapers take from the memories, what might affect the person the most, In his case it might be a massive ghostly pot filled with gold (joke) who told him the story: We are the Reapers, we come along every 50000 years to protect organics, not to get killed by synthetics. (machine devils)
Same as Saren he gets indoctrinated and tries to help the Reapers to come back.

Any questions?

PS: 1. Shol is a key person, billionär and one of the first person who found Souvereign, he simply got replaced by Saren at the end of the first book.
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We can then theorize that other people that are in the process of being indoctrinated eventually come to a scene (mentally) similar to the 3 choices at the end of the game.

At this point I will be shocked if Bioware didn't have this in mind at the end. The only thing missing is closure, which I feel Bioware either ran out of time or decided to wait and see if there was uproar over the ending and to release it later. I will also be surprised if they charge for it both because of the uproar and because I feel it was planned.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
That doesn't mean the influence wasn't beginning to take effect. He may not have been under their control yet. Indoctrination means that a person is being "taught" to see a certain perspective without question. If they started on him early, he starts becoming convinced that every choice he makes will help defeat/destroy the Reapers but instead it may be possible that he's beginning to think more like a higher functioning indoctrinated thrawl than anything else (Saren was an example of this... he thought he was controlling Sovereign but instead it was he who was slowly succumbing to the way of the Reapers). Sure, everything was taking its toll on Shepard but it sure did seem like a precursor to the ending(s).
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True. Isn't part of the IDT that the little boy in the beginning is a figment of Shepard's imagination? Perhaps not indoctrination - or not solely - but a physical personification of all the loss and hardship he has endured and he is starting to crack, allowing the Reapers to slip in.

I'm replaying ME3 as a renegade, and holy SHIT is it more dark. Shooting Moridin in the back...shooting and killing Wrex, a great friend and supporter, because of that same decision...Samara shooting herself in the head to save her daughter and then I go ahead and shoot her anyway?!?! Good thing I've been playing mostly sober lately, because if I was hitting the whiskey hard I'd probably be crying.
 
TwistedAegis said:
In regards to the IDT...among other things, what really sells it as legit to me is the fact that in the final race towards the beam, the scenery is that from your recurring nightmare throughout the game. The burned out trees, etc.
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The indoctrination has been a slow going process from day 1 in which Shepard encountered indoctrinated forces and Reaper technology. The Arrival DLC had him in very close proximity to a Reaper indoctrination device for 2 full days.

CrimsonKnight13 said:
So its possible that indoctrination started from the first nightmare sequence? The sound of a Reaper laser beam was in all of them, too.
Click to expand...

This I believe is a manifestation of his unconscious mind telling him not to follow the boy and that it is a creation of Harbinger. Harbinger's voice can actually be heard numerous times in the dreams as well. It is also by extention a clue to the player not to give into the Reaper influence.

In replaying Mass Effect last night, I reached the part where I saved the Rachni Queen. When I heard the part about oily shadows and whispering, I was floored. She described the dream sequence in ME3 almost perfectly. Well, albeit vaguely, but the oily shadows part stands out. They appear with ever increasing frequency in ME3. There are more subtle warnings in the game as well.

"Despair is the enemies greatest weapon. Do not let them weild it." -Javik

The entire ending sequence, and much of the game from the music, to the scenarios presented often beat one down over the course of the game. By the time I reached the star child AI thing, I was emotionally drained from the whole journey. I think, or rather I'd like to think that ME3 is the most brilliant game of all time in that it connects the player to Shepard like never before where they seek to manipulate, not a character in a game, but the person playing that character. Fooling a character in a game is scripted and easy. Fooling a player is much more difficult. And for Shepard, many things are resolved in the game, but always at a price making the entire journey bittersweet. But after the good byes to our squad mates and team, the rest of the game just takes a dark depressing spiral down. I think it was necessary to make the end user feel as Shepard would. Shepards word's of encouragement to the team as you set out lack the conviction and the confidence of his speeches in Mass Effect 2.

Someone in a thread earlier on said that they made up a lot of Mass Effect as they went along. However, much of what I've seen in the game itself replaying the entire series tells me otherwise. Sure details have fleshed out over time but in replaying the game I've noticed a lot of things I hadn't had enough context for in the past. Also, it is important to note that the game itself has deceived us on multiple occasions dating back to ME1. The codex entries for the Husks is one example. As are the entries on Sovereign indicating that it is a Geth construct, etc. As you go through the game you find out these things are false. Sovereign is a Reaper, and it is controlling Saren. The Geth do not make Husks, Reaper's do. Their agents vary. Sometimes collectors, sometimes husks or Geth heretics. Mass Effect 1 takes great effort to emphasize the fact that it's odd for husks to appear places where there are no Geth.

I had long believed that the Rachni were tricked or somehow manipulated into going to war with the galaxy. Hell your conversation with the queen herself in ME1 alludes to that.

I won't say BioWare's plan was perfect or that they executed on the entire thing as originally envisioned, but the game has never been written so badly as to allow this ending to be taken at face value.
 
I wonder what thoughts are out there on the star child and the supposed control of the reapers. Maybe there is something in there with reference to how Saren believed he was in control of a reaper.
 
Sycraft said:
Well, nice that you can just dismiss the legit issues that others bring up and decide it is only one thing. So I'll do the same with you: I don't think you really liked the ending. I think you pretend to because you think it makes you look hardcore. You want to be "the guy" who was so hard that he didn't WANT a good ending, he liked it all dark and shit. That's not really how you feel, but you want to project that on the forums.

See how that works? Kinda annoying, isn't it? Maybe stop doing it to others.
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All I can say is...some people said they were sick after the ending. My visceral reaction was that I enjoyed it. And maybe you're right. Maybe i'm trying to be hardcore about it.

But just as others have said, "what are the few people who enjoyed the ending thinking? Are they just casual fans? Did they play the whole series? do they not understand?", I was thinking the exact same thing.

"Why do people hate this ending so much that they are suing for it? It's so over the top and utterly ridiculous. Do they not understand? Didn't they see (what I saw) coming? ".

I mean, people are writing stories all over the net...epic threads are being created..you tube is blowing up over "the ending" debate. So I figured I'd add my two cents on my forum of choice. Give the people something different to think about.
 
PureBooYah said:
Yup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI
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I think the IDT is the best idea yet put forward, but this guy and a lot of others keep on bringing up plot holes that don't really make sense if you think about them. I should say that most of these plot holes don't make a difference for the validity of the theory either way, I think they are just brought up to point how poorly thought out the ending seems to be.

First off, people have repeatedly said that the alliance between the Geth and the Quarians somehow refutes the Reapers' entire philosophy, that synthetics will always rise up and destroy organics. But that doesn't make any sense, so what if one synthetic race makes an alliance with one organic race at one point in time. The Reapers' position is that the synthetics will eventually revolt regardless of what happens, and I don't think this one peaceful example changes that. Especially since the alliance was made in the face of the Reaper threat.

I also keep hearing people complain about Hackett contacting you on the Citadel at the end. What? Why would this be hard to understand? Once you opened the Citadel he must of known something was going on. And a significant amount of time must have passed between when you first opened the Citadel and when the Crucible docked. It seems likely that he could have tried to contact you during that time, either through whatever radio you have on your suit, or through the Citadel's communication system.

Like I said, none of this really matters, there are plenty of other plot holes and issues with the ending. Some of them are more or less arguable, such as how destroying the mass relays tends to eradicate everything in the system they are in. It could be that the relays' creators have a more carefully controlled method of destroying them than, say, throwing an asteroid at them. But again, most of these plot holes don't matter. They are just signs of bad writing or not thinking things through, which is not typical for the ME series, so they get used to support the idea that something more complex is going on.

I just wish people wouldn't keep bringing up things that aren't really plot holes if you think about them a little (I don't see these things brought up in these forums, mostly just in these videos, maybe they think they need more filler). There are plenty of real issues to bring up, like the ridiculous way that Joker just runs away, or how Anderson and the Illusive Man just show up in middle of the Citadel, or how the endings we were given so directly contradict those quotes from the developers.
 
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