Mass Effect 3 SPOILERS THREAD

Drown Babies said:
First off, people have repeatedly said that the alliance between the Geth and the Quarians somehow refutes the Reapers' entire philosophy, that synthetics will always rise up and destroy organics. But that doesn't make any sense, so what if one synthetic race makes an alliance with one organic race at one point in time. The Reapers' position is that the synthetics will eventually revolt regardless of what happens, and I don't think this one peaceful example changes that. Especially since the alliance was made in the face of the Reaper threat.
Click to expand...
I think part of the argument, at least from my point of view, is that the synthetics did not rise up against the Quarians. The Quarians actually began the conflict, as is displayed in the Geth chapter of ME3. In fact, there are Quarians that fight along side the Geth to help them gain their freedom as a society.

So the Reaper idea is that the synthetics will revolt and destroy their creators, but it was actually the Quarians who wanted to destroy the synthetics. The Geth were perfectly ok to leave the Quarians alone if they did not threaten them with extinction.
 
Maplehamwich said:
I think part of the argument, at least from my point of view, is that the synthetics did not rise up against the Quarians. The Quarians actually began the conflict, as is displayed in the Geth chapter of ME3. In fact, there are Quarians that fight along side the Geth to help them gain their freedom as a society.

So the Reaper idea is that the synthetics will revolt and destroy their creators, but it was actually the Quarians who wanted to destroy the synthetics. The Geth were perfectly ok to leave the Quarians alone if they did not threaten them with extinction.
Click to expand...

I don't know a whole lot about the Quarian/Geth thing or remember it from the games really... but didn't the Geth like destory the Quarian home world? So yeah, you could say the Quarians would be a little mad about that.
 
J W said:
I do think BioWare ran out of time, which seems to be the current "moderate" theory among fans. However, I think it was always intended that Shepard was indoctrinated at the end; I think BioWare ran out of time to make this overly obvious, unfortunately. Since they didn't have the time to make everything perfect at first, I think they've been forced to make some concessions as far as what they can do or say post release.

Notice that BioWare has yet to refute the indoctrination theory. This is in contrast to all the other theories/rumors which have been quickly derided and discounted. Yet, the indoctrination theory always garners a coy reaction from BioWare. There's also evidence that one particular BioWare twitterer referred to the Indoctrination thread as a means to explaining the ending.
Click to expand...

Coy, like these recent ones, especially the last one...

http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/185218500011376640

http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/185416840204390401

Maplehamwich said:
I wonder what thoughts are out there on the star child and the supposed control of the reapers. Maybe there is something in there with reference to how Saren believed he was in control of a reaper.
Click to expand...

If you believe the indoctrination theory is true, then Saren most likely faced a similar situation as Shepard did at the end of ME3 and Saren chose the green - synthesis option (thus becoming indoctrinated). By helping Sovereign, Saren believed the reapers would help us evolve. And this is what the starchild says will happen if you choose green at the end.
 
PureBooYah said:
If you believe the indoctrination theory is true, then Saren most likely faced a similar situation as Shepard did at the end of ME3 and Saren chose the green - synthesis option (thus becoming indoctrinated). By helping Sovereign, Saren believed the reapers would help us evolve. And this is what the starchild says will happen if you choose green at the end.
Click to expand...

Well Saren couldn't have made it that far - Shepard was the first, didn't the Catalyst say that? But now that I think about it, the vision shows the Illusive Man choosing the control option - another plot hole, or just me mis-remembering? Also, the sythesis option was for ALL life, not just the person making the choice. I think Saren was indoctrinated far before needing to reach the Catalyst, and the Reapers just implanted their tech into him. The Catalyst isn't necessary for indoctrination or changing people/creatures - look at the Rachni or any of the other warped races.
 
Maplehamwich said:
I think part of the argument, at least from my point of view, is that the synthetics did not rise up against the Quarians. The Quarians actually began the conflict, as is displayed in the Geth chapter of ME3. In fact, there are Quarians that fight along side the Geth to help them gain their freedom as a society.

So the Reaper idea is that the synthetics will revolt and destroy their creators, but it was actually the Quarians who wanted to destroy the synthetics. The Geth were perfectly ok to leave the Quarians alone if they did not threaten them with extinction.
Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The Quarians started that conflict because they were frightened of their creations. The Quarians believed that conflict was inevitable and struck first. Peace was re-established depending on your choices in the game. And honestly, if you make these choices, Shepard should believe that the starchild is lying. He has seen the truth and resolved a 300 year long standing conflict in a short period of time by helping each side understand the other.

If anything, I believe that the Reapers were created by organics at one time and rebelled against them. It is the Reapers that choose to harvest organics at stages of evolution which won't allow the organics to be able to seriously threaten them. But they allow them to exist much in the same way the Geth didn't hunt the Quarians to extinction letting them exist provided they didn't actually threaten them. Instead of destroying them, which implies evil motives, the Reapers seek to control the population in an effort to keep things in check in a way that permits safety for them. Much like we check populations of certain animals with hunting or culling periodically. As Mordin put it, "It's a bit like gardening." As much as the game has a cyclical theme, the star child AI thing goes against this. It even suggests the Reapers aren't sentient which I can't accept given what we've seen from Sovereign and Harbinger, as well as the Reaper on Rannoch. The Geth vs. Quarians, Krogan vs. Rachni, Salarians / Turians against the Krogan, Reapers vs. Organics, AI's s. Humanoids, etc.

Honestly this is the only reason I can truly see for the Reapers to do what they do. To them human and animal life are much the same. They cull what could eventually threaten them just before they get out of hand. EDI and being integrated into the Normandy SR-2 may actually be another insight into the origin of the Reapers and again proof that the AI Child's assertions about organics and machines being untrue. Though it is likely that the Reapers believe that machines must rise up and destroy organics, lest they themselves be destroyed. Again all this gets back to the pattern of themes in the Mass Effect universe.

And in regard to the choices at the end, I think the reason there is an out is that Harbinger doesn't fully control Shepard's mind and his own mind created the way out. All the star child can do is lie about what is being represented in order to prevent Shepard from making a given choice.

TwistedAegis said:
Well Saren couldn't have made it that far - Shepard was the first, didn't the Catalyst say that? But now that I think about it, the vision shows the Illusive Man choosing the control option - another plot hole, or just me mis-remembering? Also, the sythesis option was for ALL life, not just the person making the choice. I think Saren was indoctrinated far before needing to reach the Catalyst, and the Reapers just implanted their tech into him. The Catalyst isn't necessary for indoctrination or changing people/creatures - look at the Rachni or any of the other warped races.
Click to expand...

Correct. Many servants of Sovereign and the Reapers in general are made mallable to suggestion and receive upgrades without the catalyst.
 
Maplehamwich said:
I think part of the argument, at least from my point of view, is that the synthetics did not rise up against the Quarians. The Quarians actually began the conflict, as is displayed in the Geth chapter of ME3. In fact, there are Quarians that fight along side the Geth to help them gain their freedom as a society.

So the Reaper idea is that the synthetics will revolt and destroy their creators, but it was actually the Quarians who wanted to destroy the synthetics. The Geth were perfectly ok to leave the Quarians alone if they did not threaten them with extinction.
Click to expand...

They do go to pretty significant lengths to portray the Geth as the more sympathetic race and the Quarians as the aggressors. But the Geth will destroy the Quarians if they have to. And if they are willing to destroy their creators, then they will probably be less reluctant about destroying other races they perceive as a threat. It's the end result that really matters, not how or why the synthetics destroyed everything.

Either way, the circumstances of this one synthetic race (or EDI) doesn't refute the more all encompassing philosophy of the Reapers.
 
Dallows said:
I don't know a whole lot about the Quarian/Geth thing or remember it from the games really... but didn't the Geth like destory the Quarian home world? So yeah, you could say the Quarians would be a little mad about that.
Click to expand...

Well, after the Quarians threatened the eradication of all Geth, the Geth did take action. Though, they simply took over the world, they did not destroy it. The Quarians fled and the Geth let them go. The Geth then chose to remain in isolation on Rannoch beyond the perseus veil, rather than risk contact with other organics. The Citadel dispatched a fleet to attempt to investigate Rannoch (the Quarian homeworld), fully expecting Geth aggression. However, the Geth remained on Rannoch and did not threaten the Citadel fleet.

That's how the Geth-Quarian Treaty was established, forcing the Quarians to leave the Geth alone, so that the Geth would not retaliate. However, throughout the Mass Effect series, it is repeatedly shown that the Quarian attempt to break this treaty and wish to act to destroy the Geth.

You can read more here: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth_War
 
Maplehamwich said:
Well, after the Quarians threatened the eradication of all Geth, the Geth did take action. Though, they simply took over the world, they did not destroy it. The Quarians fled and the Geth let them go. The Geth then chose to remain in isolation on Rannoch beyond the perseus veil, rather than risk contact with other organics. The Citadel dispatched a fleet to attempt to investigate Rannoch (the Quarian homeworld), fully expecting Geth aggression. However, the Geth remained on Rannoch and did not threaten the Citadel fleet.

That's how the Geth-Quarian Treaty was established, forcing the Quarians to leave the Geth alone, so that the Geth would not retaliate. However, throughout the Mass Effect series, it is repeatedly shown that the Quarian attempt to break this treaty and wish to act to destroy the Geth.

You can read more here: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth_War
Click to expand...

Additionally, according to Legion the Quarians attack 100% of the time when they believe there is a high probability for success at destroying the Geth.
 
False dilemma here. The peaceful nature of the geth doesn't mean that some other synthetics created by some other organics won't inevitably strike out to wipe out all organic life (along with the Geth if they were going to fight alongside organics).

The first time I encountered this concept was reading sci-fi short stories in ANALOG as like a ten year old, about Von Neumann machines.... self-replicating robots that travel from system to system, chewing up all the planets to replicate themselves, and them moving on. The math in the story was pretty terrifying. Even given the limitations of lightspeed, such a machine could start with one single unit, and in 100,000 years or so it could wipe out the entire galaxy... not just of life, but of all physical matter that was not either stars or Von Neumann machines.

Don't fear the reaper.
 
ballpoint said:
False dilemma here. The peaceful nature of the geth doesn't mean that some other synthetics created by some other organics won't inevitably strike out to wipe out all organic life (along with the Geth if they were going to fight alongside organics).

The first time I encountered this concept was reading sci-fi short stories in ANALOG as like a ten year old, about Von Neumann machines.... self-replicating robots that travel from system to system, chewing up all the planets to replicate themselves, and them moving on. The math in the story was pretty terrifying. Even given the limitations of lightspeed, such a machine could start with one single unit, and in 100,000 years or so it could wipe out the entire galaxy... not just of life, but of all physical matter that was not either stars or Von Neumann machines.

Don't fear the reaper.
Click to expand...

Well I think the idea here is that it isn't necessary for organics and synthetics to fight. While they might the majority of the time, this can and is avoidable.
 
Dan_D said:
Well I think the idea here is that it isn't necessary for organics and synthetics to fight. While they might the majority of the time, this can and is avoidable.
Click to expand...

I agree, and the Geth may never be an aggressive race if left alone. But the Reapers will continue the cycle as long as the creepy glowing kid thinks that synthetics will eventually rise up and destroy all organics. And the kid has probably had millions of years to convince himself of that, which is why I don't think any one race will convince him otherwise.

What really would have cleared up some of these plot holes would be a few more lines of dialogue. Shepard could have just asked about the Geth and EDI, and about other things too, like the relays being destroyed. It's too bad Bioware doesn't have some optional dialogue delivery system for that... Of course, I can also see why they wouldn't want to interrupt the ending for some exposition time, that tends to kill the mood.
 
I think there-in lies the problem. The ending didn't satisfy the story created in the last 3 games. As others have said, it just creates more questions. It's too out of left field and ignores too much to actually be considered an ending. It just exists as an enigma.

I would love for IT to be true. I don't think it is though. Even if IT is true, unless it is announced that ME3 wasn't actually the end of the series, and there will be a ME4, I'm not satisfied with them attempting to wrap up all of the new questions on top of all of the old plot lines in DLC. In my opinion, the way they ended the game could easily result in another 30 or so hours of gameplay to create a truly satisfying end to the series.
 
Drown Babies said:
What really would have cleared up some of these plot holes would be a few more lines of dialogue. Shepard could have just asked about the Geth and EDI, and about other things too, like the relays being destroyed. It's too bad Bioware doesn't have some optional dialogue delivery system for that... Of course, I can also see why they wouldn't want to interrupt the ending for some exposition time, that tends to kill the mood.
Click to expand...

Yup. If it wasn't such a quick conversation, with no ability for follow-up questions, maybe it would have made more sense. If the star child had said, prior to this cycle, synthetics ruled for 20 million years and destroyed all organic life prior to it's ascension; this cycle has now occurred 50,000 times; during each cycle synthetic life was poised to destroy organic life, blah blah blah. I don't know, I'm not a writer. But the ending just feels like you got dropped on your head in front of 3 poorly explained choices, none of which you want to do.
 
spacing guild said:
You guys simply wanted a happier ending.
Click to expand...

No, I wanted an ending that made sense.

I could have thoroughly enjoyed sad ending. In fact, sad endings can be some of the most memorable. If Shepard had died in a way that made sense and I got to see all the pain it caused my teammates, it would have been memorable and enjoyable. Instead, I got to see him die during some space magic and the whopping 3 teammates we get to see afterwards seem to not care at all. Powerful, powerful stuff.
 
PureBooYah said:
Coy, like these recent ones, especially the last one...

http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/185218500011376640

http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/185416840204390401



If you believe the indoctrination theory is true, then Saren most likely faced a similar situation as Shepard did at the end of ME3 and Saren chose the green - synthesis option (thus becoming indoctrinated). By helping Sovereign, Saren believed the reapers would help us evolve. And this is what the starchild says will happen if you choose green at the end.
Click to expand...
There was also another recent one where the twitter account said it wasn't implying anything more or less than the previously released statements.

The marketing drones do not have access to secret information about the end of the game.
 
That's a great video Gooch. It also hints at the way I first saw the conversation ending. While playing, I was convinced it was all in his head, he was fighting himself. Introducing Indoctrination Theory to build on that idea makes looking back on that experience even better.
 
Last edited:
Maplehamwich said:
I think there-in lies the problem. The ending didn't satisfy the story created in the last 3 games. As others have said, it just creates more questions. It's too out of left field and ignores too much to actually be considered an ending. It just exists as an enigma.

I would love for IT to be true. I don't think it is though. Even if IT is true, unless it is announced that ME3 wasn't actually the end of the series, and there will be a ME4, I'm not satisfied with them attempting to wrap up all of the new questions on top of all of the old plot lines in DLC. In my opinion, the way they ended the game could easily result in another 30 or so hours of gameplay to create a truly satisfying end to the series.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I think they may release a lot of DLC for ME3. I'd much prefer an outright expansion or a ME4, however.

The reason I like the Indoctrination Theory, in fact, is because I don't want the series to be over. And if the series must end after three games, I surely don't want it to have ended the way it appears to have ended (everyone dies). If BioWare doesn't release any more content for post-ending, I'll be truly disappointed.
 
I really wanted to try it a second time with another ME 2 imported character.

I've not gone that far and now I'm back dinking around with Skyrim.

Maybe I'll push through it again in the future.
 
Curious if you select destroy option at the end but lack sufficient War Assets, is it possible to get a cut scene of a dead Shepard amid the rubble (well, a cutscene where he doesn't inhale)?
 
J W said:
Curious if you select destroy option at the end but lack sufficient War Assets, is it possible to get a cut scene of a dead Shepard amid the rubble (well, a cutscene where he doesn't inhale)?
Click to expand...

That's what my ending was (50% readiness, 3000-3500 Assets) and there was no Shepard in the rubble.
 
So something I never noticed in any of the "IT" videos and recently read on BioWare's forums (I haven't seen all the videos, BTW) is that the boy always happens to be near a "warning," "danger," or "caution" sign. The warning sign is near the vent where you first meet the boy. The shuttle on which the boy dies has "danger" and "caution." There's also an interesting thread which points out that some of the whispers in the dream sequences may be saying stuff like "stay away from him" and "don't trust him."
 
J W said:
So something I never noticed in any of the "IT" videos and recently read on BioWare's forums (I haven't seen all the videos, BTW) is that the boy always happens to be near a "warning," "danger," or "caution" sign. The warning sign is near the vent where you first meet the boy. The shuttle on which the boy dies has "danger" and "caution." There's also an interesting thread which points out that some of the whispers in the dream sequences may be saying stuff like "stay away from him" and "don't trust him."
Click to expand...

There is no spoken words which tell you to avoid the boy or not to listen to him. I've turned on subtitles and looked for that. I've never heard that. However, the Rachni Queen speaks of indoctrination in ME1 and the dream is eerily similar to the way she described the experience. The biggest clue is that the boy is consumed by fire everytime Shepard tries to reach him. When he finally does, they both burn.

I'll look for the caution sign where he appears in the physical world. I don't believe that's the case outside of the shuttle, and I know it isn't during the dreams.

J W said:
Curious if you select destroy option at the end but lack sufficient War Assets, is it possible to get a cut scene of a dead Shepard amid the rubble (well, a cutscene where he doesn't inhale)?
Click to expand...

The scene in the rubble simply doesn't appear if you have under 4k EMS. And again Shepard only appears in the rubble with the destroy option. I have confirmed it does not work with the other two options in my own play throughs.
 
Yeah, I don't think there's any warning signs in the dreams. But aftter I read the thread over there, I went and checked a youtube video for confirmation. Here are a couple of pics (not mine)

masseffect3201203301450.jpg

huh1m.png




With the dream thing, some people are hearing things while others aren't.
 
Last edited:
J W said:
Yeah, I don't think there's any warning signs in the dreams. But aftter I read the thread over there, I went and checked a youtube video for confirmation. Here are a couple of pics (not mine)

Image snip..............

With the dream thing, some people are hearing things while others aren't.
Click to expand...

Well even with headphones on and sub-titles enabled I'm not hearing that. There are some lines spoken in the dreams by those who died in earlier installments of the series or in earlier missions. The most notable thing I've heard is Harbinger's voice. I hear that one more often than not.
 
Dan_D said:
Well even with headphones on and sub-titles enabled I'm not hearing that. There are some lines spoken in the dreams by those who died in earlier installments of the series or in earlier missions. The most notable thing I've heard is Harbinger's voice. I hear that one more often than not.
Click to expand...

I was going to give it a try later if I can find a save around that point. People who are reporting success are apparently going off in all sorts of different directions. Also, these whispers apparently are rather muffled and difficult to discern.
 
J W said:
I was going to give it a try later if I can find a save around that point. People who are reporting success are apparently going off in all sorts of different directions. Also, these whispers apparently are rather muffled and difficult to discern.
Click to expand...

I've hung out and run around a bit rather than chasing the child and didn't run into that. They either aren't hearing it right, I'm not hearing it right or there may be a random element to the dream sequences and the audio.
 
Dan_D said:
I've hung out and run around a bit rather than chasing the child and didn't run into that. They either aren't hearing it right, I'm not hearing it right or there may be a random element to the dream sequences and the audio.
Click to expand...

they're just quotes taken from any previous/recently dead characters related to your shepard, not sure why people are reading so much into it. just turn subtitles on and we can see them printed word for word.

J W said:
Curious if you select destroy option at the end but lack sufficient War Assets, is it possible to get a cut scene of a dead Shepard amid the rubble (well, a cutscene where he doesn't inhale)?
Click to expand...

Maplehamwich said:
That's what my ending was (50% readiness, 3000-3500 Assets) and there was no Shepard in the rubble.
Click to expand...

3 conditions must be met for you to get this ending - destroy option, greater than or equal to 4k effective assets (can be modded in config), and over 50% readiness (tied to mp, cannot be hacked in any way afaik).
 
mas said:
they're just quotes taken from any previous/recently dead characters related to your shepard, not sure why people are reading so much into it. just turn subtitles on and we can see them printed word for word.
Click to expand...


This is true, but there are apparently whispers beyond the squadmate whispers. I watched (listened to) a youtube video and it just sounded like gobbledygook to me. I suspect people either have much better hearing than I or that they're trying to hear things that may not be there.

I believe BioWare said that you should pay attention to the details. People are bound to take that to the extreme.
 
check out the orange banners on the citadel in ME1. looks like spread-eagle citadel to me. bricks were shat.
 
J W said:
So something I never noticed in any of the "IT" videos and recently read on BioWare's forums (I haven't seen all the videos, BTW) is that the boy always happens to be near a "warning," "danger," or "caution" sign. The warning sign is near the vent where you first meet the boy. The shuttle on which the boy dies has "danger" and "caution." There's also an interesting thread which points out that some of the whispers in the dream sequences may be saying stuff like "stay away from him" and "don't trust him."
Click to expand...

Also telling is the Reaper growl when Anderson calls out to you from the other room, and when you look back the boy has disappeared.
 
I just finished the game and I really don't know what happened. From the game saves it looks like i spent about 62 hours and it was an awesome game but I will say the ending was substandard. I really don't know what happened but I'll take a break until the DLC hits.

I do have to say - probably one of the best games I've played in years regardless of the last 20 minutes.
 
I just reloaded a save near the end of the genophage mission and replayed the dream sequence. I turned the music down and the volume up. The dead squadmate chatter is clear, but the general murmur beyond that is not. I don't think it's intelligible at all.

I cling to the indoctrination theory and it's a shame this whisper thing doesn't pan out (at least not for me and others, apparently). The "warning" signs are still something to consider, though. Probably a coincidence, but I also like that the first system you see when you go to the star map after you've beat the game is Pax.

MassEffect32012-03-3108-38-13-86-1.jpg
 
Last edited:
J W said:
I just reloaded a save near the end of the genophage mission and replayed the dream sequence. I turned the music down and the volume up. The dead squadmate chatter is clear, but the general murmur beyond that is not. I don't think it's intelligible at all.

I cling to the indoctrination theory and it's a shame this whisper thing doesn't pan out (at least not for me and others, apparently). The "warning" signs are still something to consider, though. Probably a coincidence, but I also like that the first system you see when you go to the star map after you've beat the game is Pax.
Click to expand...

Wow. Good catch. That's borderline stunning. Did BioWare jut trollface.jpeg us? I mean, it could be a coincidence, but I'm starting to see way too many coincidences to keep ignoring it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top