Jeez 10900k really?

It isn't as simple as saying AMD is 10FPS slower in games than Intel's Core i9-10900K is. In some games, you won't see that much of a difference and in others you might see considerably more. You have to look at the resolution, settings and games you play and determine whether or not the upgrade makes sense on any level right now. In my test, it was pretty simple. In games where you are CPU limited, Intel has a pretty big advantage. The problem is, that "big advantage" isn't necessarily something you can leverage or something that matters. That is to say, games like Destiny 2, Doom Eternal and others that run extremely fast anyway show bigger gains on Intel. Unless your looking to hit specific frame rates such as those needed for high refresh rate monitors the difference is for the most part functionally academic. If you've got a 120Hz or 144Hz monitor and an RTX 2080 Ti. You can do anything upwards of 3440x1440 without noticing any difference between the two despite the Core i9-10900K being faster according to the numbers.

In many cases, even at 4K the numbers weren't all that far apart. Naturally, the more the GPU becomes a factor the less pronounced the difference is. Ghost Recon Breakpoint is pretty demanding and I can't always hit 120FPS @ 3440x1440. In cases like that, at 4K, we literally saw a 1-3FPS difference between AMD's Ryzen 9 3900X and Intel's Core i9-10900K across the board.

1591204671272.png


It's worth noting that in some cases, the Core i9-10900K saw massive increases from overclocking. Something the CPU generally does well, but is a pain to keep cool. It pulls a ton of power to do it and though the gains are there, many people probably won't want to invest in the cooling hardware to achieve those results.

Outside of gaming is where things fall apart for Intel. However, most people don't really do the types of things with their systems that really benefit from the massive increases we've had in CPU cores in the last two years or so. The fact is, software hasn't really caught up to those increases yet and probably won't for years. That assumes the application can even benefit from additional parallel processing in the first place. Some simply can't benefit from that. Again, while AMD is clearly the winner in anything multi-threaded, the difference for most people is largely academic. This is a "buy whatever" you want type of situation. You have to have pretty specific use cases for someone to say with certainty that AMD will really benefit you over what Intel offers. If you aren't doing a ton of video editing and encoding, or a ton of virtualization work I'd largely say that either option would generally work about the same.

That said, right now the value option certainly rests with AMD. With recent price cuts to the Ryzen 9 3900X it's a no brainer vs. Intel unless all you do with your PC is play games. Even then, not everyone is going to see the frame rate differences as being worth the extra $150 or so it costs to go Intel. Z490 boards are largely expensive, but then again so are the decent X570 boards. Although, again with AMD you have a wider range of price points you can find motherboards at. Many X470 motherboards are good options and certainly lessen the cost of doing a build. Money that could go to a GPU or a cooling upgrade if you already have a good GPU or want to hold off until later this year when NVIDIA drops its successor to the RTX 2080 Ti.
 
No?

It really is that simple. I do not care if it's only 10 - 15 - 30 - 40 frames difference, I want the best. Intel is the best at gaming. I am not a benchmarker like ... seemingly all the AMD guys are with their praise of, we have more cores and we spend $1.50 less in electricity at month and it was cheaper to purchase. I mean, really?

Are you sure you just don't like people that aren't on the AMD band wagon? That seems more likely than you not being sure or not, guessing to if i am trolling or not. And no, I am not trolling.

I'm not a fan boy of brands. I could care less of what branding or color my box has. I'm all about performance. If AMD were in Intels shoes in regards to the absolute best performance in games, I would be talking about my AMD CPU. Trust me. Some of us do have the money to throw at performance regardless of how silly that must seem from others POV.

If anything, I see and hear more from AMD people speaking out when Intel people praise their platform, not the other way around.

Just because your CPU cost less, has more cores and uses a bit less electricity really doesn't mean anything to me. One thing is for sure, all of that sure doesn't help having the best gaming performance.

Same here, but have come to the opposite conclusion. I too "want the best". And I don't care at all about brand. And if you look at expert reviews/industry reviews, overwhelmingly, almost all of them are saying the same thing in 2020: the "best CPU's" are not Intel.

Now if you care about niche areas like gaming and similar, then yeah, stick to Intel. But if you want the "best CPU", that argument doesn't work.
 
Now if you care about niche areas like gaming and similar, then yeah, stick to Intel. But if you want the "best CPU", that argument doesn't work.

That's a simple way of putting it, but I think it's accurate.
 
With recent price cuts to the Ryzen 9 3900X it's a no brainer vs. Intel unless all you do with your PC is play games.

This is a biased argument. It really breaks down into three types of loads:

1) Latency sensitive: Games or other latency sensitive real-time activities, where Intel is better.
2) Embarrassingly Parallel: Encoding, Rendering, where greater core counts and thus AMD is better.
3) The Rest: The fat remainder of general usage where it doesn't matter at all, unless you are talking about rock bottom CPUs.

The claims that Intel CPUs are a bad choice "unless all you do with your PC is play games" are specious.
The equal and opposite specious argument would be that AMD CPUs are bad choice, unless all you do is encoding/rendering.

Intel being best at gaming, doesn't mean it's not good for other activities. It's simply about priorities.

Intel is better if you prioritize gaming, AMD is better, if you prioritize heavily parallel tasks.
 
This is a biased argument. It really breaks down into three types of loads:

1) Latency sensitive: Games or other latency sensitive real-time activities, where Intel is better.
2) Embarrassingly Parallel: Encoding, Rendering, where greater core counts and thus AMD is better.
3) The Rest: The fat remainder of general usage where it doesn't matter at all, unless you are talking about rock bottom CPUs.

The claims that Intel CPUs are a bad choice "unless all you do with your PC is play games" are specious.
The equal and opposite specious argument would be that AMD CPUs are bad choice, unless all you do is encoding/rendering.

Intel being best at gaming, doesn't mean it's not good for other activities. It's simply about priorities.

Intel is better if you prioritize gaming, AMD is better, if you prioritize heavily parallel tasks.

First off, I never said that Intel CPU's were a bad choice. At no point did I ever say that. I never said that Intel CPU's weren't good at other things. If you actually read and understood what I said, I stated that Intel was the better choice if all you do is play games. It is and I have data to back that up as I've tested it. You can take that to mean that AMD is better for everything else, but I also said in the same post that most of the time, the difference was academic and only very specific tasks favored AMD enough for there to be a significant advantage in going AMD. I flat out said most of the time, it didn't matter and to buy whatever you want.

I did say that I believed AMD to be the better price/performance value right now though.
 
Same here, but have come to the opposite conclusion. I too "want the best". And I don't care at all about brand. And if you look at expert reviews/industry reviews, overwhelmingly, almost all of them are saying the same thing in 2020: the "best CPU's" are not Intel.

Now if you care about niche areas like gaming and similar, then yeah, stick to Intel. But if you want the "best CPU", that argument doesn't work.
That's a simple way of putting it, but I think it's accurate.

Best overall: Ryzen
Best for multi-purpose: Ryzen
Best for Gaming-Only: Intel
Best for Rendering Monster: ThreadRipper
Best for Availability to buy: Eh... Hard to say at the moment.

All agreed? :p
 
Best overall: Ryzen
Best for multi-purpose: Ryzen
Best for Gaming-Only: Intel
Best for Rendering Monster: ThreadRipper
Best for Availability to buy: Eh... Hard to say at the moment.

All agreed? :p

Availability is really in AMD's favor right now. The Core i9-10900K's are showing up, but they don't have amazing availability. Better than I'd have thought given the shit show that Cascade Lake-X's launch was and still is.
 
I stated that Intel was the better choice if all you do is play games.

That is exactly the same saying they are worse choice, unless all you do with your PC is play games. (bolded part is from your original comment).

Saying they are worse unless you do only one activity exclusively certainly implies they can't do other things well.

If the are good at most things, and excellent at gaming, certainly they would still be a good choice, if you prioritize gaming and still do other things...

Hey I prioritize gaming, but I still using my computer to surf the internet. Poor choice, you do something other than gaming... :(
 
That is exactly the same saying they are worse choice, unless all you do with your PC is play games. (bolded part is from your original comment).

Saying they are worse unless you do only one activity exclusively certainly implies they can't do other things well.

If the are good at most things, and excellent at gaming, certainly they would still be a good choice, if you prioritize gaming and still do other things...

Hey I prioritize gaming, but I still using my computer to surf the internet. Poor choice, you do something other than gaming... :(
Do you want him to type it slower next time? Seriously. What he said is pretty true and does not mean Intel is bad at all but gaming.
 
Availability is really in AMD's favor right now. The Core i9-10900K's are showing up, but they don't have amazing availability. Better than I'd have thought given the shit show that Cascade Lake-X's launch was and still is.

Local Microcenter has the boards... but not hte CPUS. They also have AMD CPUs ... but no boards :p

Unless you want threadripper. Got plenty of that.
 
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Do you want him to type it slower next time? Seriously. What he said is pretty true and does not mean Intel is bad at all but gaming.

No it isn't true. He is saying Intel is only a good choice, all you do with your PC is play games.

"all you do with your PC is play games" is an absolute statement of usage.

No internet, no home office, no doing your taxes. Do any of that and you should choose a different CPU.

Absolute statements are usually wrong, and so is this one.
 
No it isn't true. He is saying Intel is only a good choice, all you do with your PC is play games.

"all you do with your PC is play games" is an absolute statement of usage.

No internet, no home office, no doing your taxes. Do any of that and you should choose a different CPU.

Absolute statements are usually wrong, and so is this one.

It wasn't an absolute statement and your inferring meaning that you shouldn't had you read the entire post and understood it.
 
It wasn't an absolute statement and your inferring meaning that you shouldn't had you read the entire post and understood it.

"All" is an absolute, just like "always", and "never".
Example:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/all
6: nothing but : ONLY

You shouldn't use "all" if don't actually mean that is the ONLY thing you can use your Intel CPU for, without qualification.

If you had said unless the "main thing" you do with your PC, or the main CPU intensive thing, then that would have a qualification built in, and not be an absolute.
 
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Do you want him to type it slower next time? Seriously. What he said is pretty true and does not mean Intel is bad at all but gaming.
your wasting your time with this person. if a higher power came down he would still argue till hell froze over. seems to be a troll!
 
Power consumption is a tricky one.

Let’s say your computer is on for 8 hours, which translates to 480 minutes per day (for round numbers).

Let’s also say that a maximum of 12.5% of that time (1 hour) is at full power which translates to 150w/h for that hour, but the rest is at 10w/h, the total power used in that is 220w.

On the other hand, if you’re using 20w/h for that 7 hours (140w total) then 100w for that intense hour, you’re still using a total of 240w, which is more than the power of the former.

This is why the intel’s offerings are still very efficient. Going back to my 9900k, it idles at 2-5w when you tweak your power settings a bit, no doubt the 10xxx series are similar.
I would argue that the vast majority of users spend a lot of time browsing, creating content, watching videos etc which is essentially idling.

This articulates what I said in chart form, albeit without power setting tweaks I have mentioned:
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-7-3800x-review,7.html

https://www.thefpsreview.com/2020/05/20/intel-core-i9-10900k-cpu-review/4/#cmtoc_anchor_id_0
 
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"All" is an absolute, just like "always", and "never".
Example:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/all
6: nothing but : ONLY

You shouldn't use "all" if don't actually mean that is the ONLY thing you can use your Intel CPU for, without qualification.

If you had said unless the "main thing" you do with your PC, or the main CPU intensive thing, then that would have a qualification built in, and not be an absolute.

Get over yourself. Dan's post was as impartial as one could get especially given his partiality for intel.
 
"All" is an absolute, just like "always", and "never".
Example:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/all
6: nothing but : ONLY

You shouldn't use "all" if don't actually mean that is the ONLY thing you can use your Intel CPU for, without qualification.

If you had said unless the "main thing" you do with your PC, or the main CPU intensive thing, then that would have a qualification built in, and not be an absolute.

If you had read the entire post and understood it, you wouldn't be saying that. Not mentioning every specific task a CPU can be used for is not a statement asserting that a given CPU is bad for it. I said quite the opposite in the paragraph above what you quoted that you've been ignoring this entire time. I may have chosen the wrong word, but it seems most people understood what I wrote. I'm not sure why you are struggling to do the same.
 
If you had read the entire post and understood it, you wouldn't be saying that. Not mentioning every specific task a CPU can be used for is not a statement asserting that a given CPU is bad for it. I said quite the opposite in the paragraph above what you quoted that you've been ignoring this entire time. I may have chosen the wrong word, but it seems most people understood what I wrote. I'm not sure why you are struggling to do the same.



Sure, most AMD fans agreed with you repeating the common AMD fan trope, that you buy Intel if all you do is gaming with your computer.

Especially after you point out that the image you use for gaming, is GPU limited identical performance for all CPUs at 4K.
 
Sure, most AMD fans agreed with you repeating the common AMD fan trope, that you buy Intel if all you do is gaming with your computer.

Especially after you point out that the image you use for gaming, is GPU limited identical performance for all CPUs at 4K.

WTF Intel fan boy dribble is this? Your mind must be busy coming up with these strawman arguments.
 
Sure, most AMD fans agreed with you repeating the common AMD fan trope, that you buy Intel if all you do is gaming with your computer.

Especially after you point out that the image you use for gaming, is GPU limited identical performance for all CPUs at 4K.

Make up your minds people. :) When I recommend something from AMD, people say I'm biased towards AMD. When I recommend Intel, I get told I'm biased towards Intel. To quote Kyle Bennett: "I must be doing something right."

Let me be absolutely clear here. I don't give a shit about brand loyalty. Period. I've owned plenty of AMD and Intel CPU's over the years. Whatever is faster for my purposes is what I tend to buy. However, I personally do not focus on gaming performance alone. There are applications and tasks in which your CPU choice makes no difference. You could use a lowly Core i3 whatever from a couple years ago and it would do the work just fine. I web browse and do general application usage on both Intel and AMD systems all the time. I literally have a 9900K, 10900K, 3900X and 3950X systems all within the same 15 feet of wall space across my test bench and desk.

I don't notice the difference between any of them for basic tasks. Again, I never thought it was necessary to state whether Intel or AMD CPU's were better at doing your taxes, surfing the web, watching Pornhub or Netflix. I figured that enthusiasts and readers of these forums were smart enough to know that without me saying so. I figured they would be smart enough to realize that these weren't the tasks I was talking about.

And because you seem to have difficulties reading it, and you continue to ignore the paragraph right above what you cherry picked and quoted: "Outside of gaming is where things fall apart for Intel. However, most people don't really do the types of things with their systems that really benefit from the massive increases we've had in CPU cores in the last two years or so. The fact is, software hasn't really caught up to those increases yet and probably won't for years. That assumes the application can even benefit from additional parallel processing in the first place. Some simply can't benefit from that. Again, while AMD is clearly the winner in anything multi-threaded, the difference for most people is largely academic. This is a "buy whatever" you want type of situation. You have to have pretty specific use cases for someone to say with certainty that AMD will really benefit you over what Intel offers. If you aren't doing a ton of video editing and encoding, or a ton of virtualization work I'd largely say that either option would generally work about the same."

So, what does the above paragraph mean? I clearly state that while Intel is weaker in non-gaming tasks, the difference isn't something you are going to notice. I specifically stated that you would need very specific applications or workloads to see a real difference between the two products. How can I be more clear about this? You seem to like to cherry pick things I've said and twist them to sell people on your perceived narrative. Again, I picked one graph out of my entire review to illustrate a point. But here is the entire review for those who want the full story. Since I can't count on you understanding the contents, I'll summarize for you: Intel wins and loses in some applications. It loses at most of them. It wins in virtually all the games.

When it comes to gaming, when you are CPU limited such as you often are at 1920x1080, you will see a greater benefit to going Intel. At 4K, it's not quite so black and white. In some games, the difference will certainly be there because not every game is necessarily only going to be GPU limited. CPU performance factors in as well. It depends on the engine and what game we are talking about. However, in strictly GPU limited games, the spread across all the test systems was very small. The Ghost Recon graph is what I used to illustrate this point. It does not, in any way indicate that this is true of all games and that at 4K, your CPU makes little difference. This would be a generalization that isn't strictly accurate.

Doom Eternal on the other hand is a mess, and it's hard to quantify exactly what the results meant as they were all over the place. This is why I didn't include that graph. Destiny 2 shows quite a different story than Ghost Recon does as it isn't strictly GPU limited.

1591284229813.png


It's also an example where Intel and AMD are much closer in terms of performance. This is actually a different test than my previous Destiny 2 tests, so keep that in mind. The results aren't comparable. But, as you can see, the averages are fairly close acros the board and you only see massive changes in the average when overclocking Intel CPU's comes into play. Again, you missed the part where I said specific game analysis was necessary to determine which CPU was truly better.

Now, the real reasons I've been saying that AMD is generally the better buy is due to the fact that you get a greater core count for the same money. As this is demonstrably true, and AMD is faster at multi-threaded performance, it usually makes more sense. You can also factor in motherboard considerations and the recent price drops into that equation. Intel is faster at gaming for sure, but usually, when comparing the 9900K to the 3900X, the latter is on aggregate only about 5-6% slower. Generally, that's not a big enough gap to change that. The Core i9-10900K is a different animal as it extends this lead to a greater extent and is surprisingly competitive in various applications. The data so far shows considerable improvements to gaming performance. But, it still doesn't match the much cheaper 3900X in non-gaming applications where CPU performance matters. Again, that doesn't mean we are talking about TurboTax or anything else. We are talking about video editing, rendering and virtualization where those extra cores negate any advantages Intel has as far as clock speed or design.

It's all about what's important to you. Perhaps I chose the wrong word as you can't seem to get off the word "all". It was meant as a generalization. If all you do is play games, then Intel is the superior choice in terms of raw performance. That statement itself does not indicate that Intel is awful at non-gaming or trivial tasks such as those that can be done on a phone or tablet just as easily. You are inferring meaning where there is none. In contrast, generally speaking, AMD's offerings are faster for non-gaming tasks. This statement usually, but not always holds true. This statement also does not mean that AMD CPU's suck at gaming. I can provide plenty of data showing that they don't. However, there are still specific situations where AMD would be worth going to for non-gaming use cases and ones where Intel would be the preferred option for specific games.

At this point, I hope I've made myself clear. If you don't understand what I meant at this point, you probably never will. Since everyone else seems to have understood what I said, I'll have to also assume that it's you and not me that's the problem here and move on from this topic.
 
Sorry, more cores doesn't help me. I am not easily tricked, fooled or manipulated into that argument and or logic.

To me it is absolutely mind blowing that ... suddenly, you have gamers that want more cores at the cost of gaming performance. Sometimes, unknowingly like my friend Ron.

Also, I really don't like that when you have an Intel enthusiast talk about their new build, all of the AMD "more core" kids come out of the wood work and bash on you. I hear a lot of, we are cheaper, use less electricity, oh and we have MORE CORES.

What I would like everyone to understand here is that for me, I am not a brand whore. I am only loyal to one metric and that is, the best performance. When I was younger which a lot of you are, I was limited on funds. I'm older now, semi-retired, house paid for, no debt, etc etc so myself and others who can afford to chase that extra performance, will do so. And no, I am not trying to sound condescending. Lot of you younger guys have the money as well and I get it. I am simply saying is if you only have so much money to budget with, then AMD is going to make a lot of sense to you. In fact, as I've said before many times, I am glad AMD is around so you guys have that option and an excellent option it is.

Just like a lot of you are not going to spend $400 to $500+ on a mother board or research and buy 4400mhz DDR4 b-die Samsung memory to get very tight timings. A lot of you guys don't, won't or can't throw money at the best performance. But, a lot of us do. Some of you guys buy $100 PC cases, I buy $200 and $300 Lian-Li cases. And no, it's not bragging, I'm saying, people are going to chase performance or higher end cases or whatever the case may be.

I really don't want to hear this whole "AMD MORE CORES" argument anymore than I have to. I mean, it's an unwavering tidal wave constantly crashing down on everyone. YouTube influences, forums, here on HardOCP, etc. Especially Bitwit, Linus Tech Tips, that grey haired guy who is in idiot, all of those guys bash Intel over and over and over again. Suddenly, everyone is running productivity benchmarks and we are supposed to base our CPU purchase off that. Like ..... whaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttt?

The only Intel love I hear is always said in a begrudgingly manner. For example, you hear a lot of people ... "Intel is still a little faster in gaming" and it's always said in a very demure way.

Be nice to have one person say something to the effect of, "oh, he wants the best gaming performance and, I respect and understand that and get it." ....... not "AMD Blah blah blah "more cores" blah blah blah, cheaper, blah blah blah, energy efficient.

BTW, my new intel build is nearing completion, in burn-in and testing phase and slowly getting into the performance tuning side of things. Early numbers are very promising, I'm 99.9% world percentile taking into account CPU, Memory, GPU and I/O. Have my new b-die's running at 12-12-12-28-T1 @ 1.45v @ 4133mhz, 10900K @ 5.2 all cores under-load @ low 80c temps. 2080 Ti MSI Gaming Trio-X at 2050. Total budget so far is around $3300. Minus the $3000 I got for my old system 5 weeks ago. I'm finalizing my NVMe storage route now and trying to decide if I go with 2 x 512 NVMe is Raid0 or just get a 2TB NVMe and partition it to my needs.

I also "pre-paid" for a new nVidia 3080 Ti ... in a round about way. I bought the extended warranty on my new 2080 Ti for $140 ( total investment with GPU, tax and waranty was right at $1,500 ) and was told if for whatever technical reason, I can bring it back for a full refund or store credit minus of course the cost of the added warranty. So, coil whine, over heating, fan noise, artifacting, etc. I already have an occasional tick on one of the fans so this fall i will return my 2080 Ti and pickup a 3080 Ti free of charge.

Let's goooooooooooooo

Oh, for those of you wanting a KILLER rig for not a lot of money. Go checkout the coverage over at Gamers Nexus. The 10600K paired with a 2080 Super is the killer setup for 1440p ultra gaming. In fact, I have my new build sold ( pending for $4K to a guy in the Ozarks ) and may, possibly build this setup. The 10600K @ 5.1 48 cache is as fast as the 10900k in most games save a few. It's a $299 dollar CPU.

You could build a 10600K, 2080 Super, 512 NVMe, $5 Windows 10 Pro Key, H510 case, 750 watt Gold modular Inland, cooling, a $200 z490 mobo all for around $1400 - $1500 all in and be right up there with me and my $3300 build lol ....
 

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I am not a heavy gamer, I have a 9900k, it is working perfectly well for the non gaming stuff I am doing as well as the gaming stuff. Sure I could get a few more seconds off compile and rendering times, but it doesn’t matter. If it were multiple minutes then it would, but it isn’t.

I am debating going water cooling but being that I have a d15, the point is kind of moot unless I go high end, and for the cost/hassle of water cooling I could probably sell what I have and get a 3950x or 10900k, both are more than I need for what I do.
 
I am not a heavy gamer, I have a 9900k, it is working perfectly well for the non gaming stuff I am doing as well as the gaming stuff. Sure I could get a few more seconds off compile and rendering times, but it doesn’t matter. If it were multiple minutes then it would, but it isn’t.

I am debating going water cooling but being that I have a d15, the point is kind of moot unless I go high end, and for the cost/hassle of water cooling I could probably sell what I have and get a 3950x or 10900k, both are more than I need for what I do.


I like to suggest to people and I am absolutely serious about this as I have NEVER not sold one of my personal systems is that when you build your system, build it with resell in mind. You can continue to use it, enjoy it and may even decide not to sell it but at least you have that option. Myself and one other friend just recently sold our 9900K systems, both with 2080 ti's ... we got excellent money and used that money to build a new 10900K system. What does building a system for resell mean? Just make it a very appealing system that people would want to own. High end parts, nice case, clean design, excellent cable management. Tiny details like custom badges you can get off eBay, etc etc. I owned my 9900K system for well over 18 months and sold it for only a $200 loss. Not a bad return given I get a new build out of it.

I've never been able to include a custom water loop in any of my builds only from the stand point, it doesn't make sense to spend $600+ dollars only to sell the system shortly there after.
 
Yeah I am considering an aio, but the potential for failure vs the difference is not worth the risk
 
Yeah I am considering an aio, but the potential for failure vs the difference is not worth the risk


You should be okay. it is extremely rare for an AIO to break and destroy a PC. In fact, go and do a search right now, you will only find a few confirmed instances of this happening. You can also do air. The truth is, a very high end air cooler is just as good as an AIO. This is also confirmed on Gamers Nexus and Linus Tech Tips and elsewhere. Just go and do some research.
 
Sorry, more cores doesn't help me. I am not easily tricked, fooled or manipulated into that argument and or logic.

To me it is absolutely mind blowing that ... suddenly, you have gamers that want more cores at the cost of gaming performance. Sometimes, unknowingly like my friend Ron.
Who said we're gamers? More importantly, who said we're gamers only? I do a LOT of things with my systems; I do have a dedicated gaming system, which is a 6700K with 1080, and it's fine - the same as any of these CPUs really would be now, because they're all fine. An x86 CPU is a commodity bit of hardware at this point, unless you're into truly competitive gaming or some of the core-hungry workstation projects. Any of these are fine. They'll all do the job.
Also, I really don't like that when you have an Intel enthusiast talk about their new build, all of the AMD "more core" kids come out of the wood work and bash on you. I hear a lot of, we are cheaper, use less electricity, oh and we have MORE CORES.

What I would like everyone to understand here is that for me, I am not a brand whore. I am only loyal to one metric and that is, the best performance. When I was younger which a lot of you are, I was limited on funds. I'm older now, semi-retired, house paid for, no debt, etc etc so myself and others who can afford to chase that extra performance, will do so. And no, I am not trying to sound condescending. Lot of you younger guys have the money as well and I get it. I am simply saying is if you only have so much money to budget with, then AMD is going to make a lot of sense to you. In fact, as I've said before many times, I am glad AMD is around so you guys have that option and an excellent option it is.
Best performance for what? Gaming? Sure - buy an intel system. Have at it. It'll do fine at other things too. Per dollar it will arguably do those other things less well, but the opposite is true too - the other systems will do things like gaming less well too, but it all depends on where your priorities are (or in this case, whoever is shopping for a system).

I could go out and buy a 10980XE and TR3990X right now for two systems both dedicated to that kind of purpose, but it seems rather pointless, so I don't.

For that matter, it doesn't matter how much money you have - Intel will still fare worse for some of my workloads than AMD does - intel tops out at the 8280/8280M, while AMD keeps going quite a bit further, and those are server chips.

To rephrase - it's not about budget, it's about priorities and goals. Infinite budget, I'm buying a pair of 7742 for my most expensive system - and cheaping out a bit on the gaming one because they'll all just about game ~fine~. I'm not playing competitively, I'm not trying to sit at 165FPS - I just want to have fun.
Just like a lot of you are not going to spend $400 to $500+ on a mother board or research and buy 4400mhz DDR4 b-die Samsung memory to get very tight timings. A lot of you guys don't, won't or can't throw money at the best performance. But, a lot of us do. Some of you guys buy $100 PC cases, I buy $200 and $300 Lian-Li cases. And no, it's not bragging, I'm saying, people are going to chase performance or higher end cases or whatever the case may be.

I really don't want to hear this whole "AMD MORE CORES" argument anymore than I have to. I mean, it's an unwavering tidal wave constantly crashing down on everyone. YouTube influences, forums, here on HardOCP, etc. Especially Bitwit, Linus Tech Tips, that grey haired guy who is in idiot, all of those guys bash Intel over and over and over again. Suddenly, everyone is running productivity benchmarks and we are supposed to base our CPU purchase off that. Like ..... whaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttt?
Because a lot of us do more than one thing with our system, and for once, AMD is doing something interesting. Intel has been producing effectively the same core design since Skylake for a long time now. It's a good CPU, but it's ... boring. Very boring. This has let a lot of folks do things they couldn't have (or couldn't have easily) now - home rendering, better coding, etc. It's expanding the hobby, which is a good thing - I'm not a gamer, I'm a technologist. Gaming is part of that, but an NVMEoF target simulating an NVDIMM is also part of that.
The only Intel love I hear is always said in a begrudgingly manner. For example, you hear a lot of people ... "Intel is still a little faster in gaming" and it's always said in a very demure way.

Be nice to have one person say something to the effect of, "oh, he wants the best gaming performance and, I respect and understand that and get it." ....... not "AMD Blah blah blah "more cores" blah blah blah, cheaper, blah blah blah, energy efficient.
Because very few of us are building dedicated gaming-first systems, and for a non gaming-only system, AMD gives you more for the dollar, and still plays games just fine.
BTW, my new intel build is nearing completion, in burn-in and testing phase and slowly getting into the performance tuning side of things. Early numbers are very promising, I'm 99.9% world percentile taking into account CPU, Memory, GPU and I/O. Have my new b-die's running at 12-12-12-28-T1 @ 1.45v @ 4133mhz, 10900K @ 5.2 all cores under-load @ low 80c temps. 2080 Ti MSI Gaming Trio-X at 2050. Total budget so far is around $3300. Minus the $3000 I got for my old system 5 weeks ago. I'm finalizing my NVMe storage route now and trying to decide if I go with 2 x 512 NVMe is Raid0 or just get a 2TB NVMe and partition it to my needs.

I also "pre-paid" for a new nVidia 3080 Ti ... in a round about way. I bought the extended warranty on my new 2080 Ti for $140 ( total investment with GPU, tax and waranty was right at $1,500 ) and was told if for whatever technical reason, I can bring it back for a full refund or store credit minus of course the cost of the added warranty. So, coil whine, over heating, fan noise, artifacting, etc. I already have an occasional tick on one of the fans so this fall i will return my 2080 Ti and pickup a 3080 Ti free of charge.
Sweet. Sounds fun. I remember those days back when I had a T-bred Barton and was trying to get the last bit of performance out - it was fun. What are you playing that needs that last drop of performance? I get doing it for the hell of it - I ran a datacenter out of my house for the hell of it, because it was fun, but is that it?
Let's goooooooooooooo

Oh, for those of you wanting a KILLER rig for not a lot of money. Go checkout the coverage over at Gamers Nexus. The 10600K paired with a 2080 Super is the killer setup for 1440p ultra gaming. In fact, I have my new build sold ( pending for $4K to a guy in the Ozarks ) and may, possibly build this setup. The 10600K @ 5.1 48 cache is as fast as the 10900k in most games save a few. It's a $299 dollar CPU.

You could build a 10600K, 2080 Super, 512 NVMe, $5 Windows 10 Pro Key, H510 case, 750 watt Gold modular Inland, cooling, a $200 z490 mobo all for around $1400 - $1500 all in and be right up there with me and my $3300 build lol ....
I agree that the 10600k is a hell of a gaming-first system, and a decent affordable all around system too. But...

Last years hardware. It's fine. It's just not exciting, because it's just fine. Works great. Looks nice. But there's nothing new there - it's a graphics card that's almost a year old, a CPU based on the 2015 release, and some other bits. It's fine. Just ... nothing special. Nothing that gets me excited at least. I wouldn't turn it down, but I'm not in a hurry to upgrade to it from my 6700 and 1080 either - because they're fine too. I'm far more interested in building a better VM and workstation system (that will play some games too), as that's where my focus is right now. For once, I can do that far better than I used to - because now there are 12 and 16 core systems out there that don't cost an enormous amount and ALSO play games fine, unlike 1st gen ThreadRipper. And if I decide to get REALLY funky, I can get 24 cores and still game just fine with a 3690X. I could do the same on a 10980 too, or a 10900, but AMD will do it better, cheaper, for my use case.

I'm debating on waiting for Ice Lake on the gaming side - AMD looks to have the workstation market locked down for quite some time right now, and a 3950X would do nicely there. But I'd like to spend stupid money on something, so maybe that ends up being ThreadRipper - don't know yet. Got a thread debating it.

I'm not the entire market, and neither are you. I get what you're trying to say, and I don't disagree - it just doesn't matter that much now. They're all fine, and only one of the two companies is showing anything interesting, and it's opening doors that used to be HEDT only levels of performance. It's bringing heavy computation to the masses, and that's great.
 
You should be okay. it is extremely rare for an AIO to break and destroy a PC. In fact, go and do a search right now, you will only find a few confirmed instances of this happening. You can also do air. The truth is, a very high end air cooler is just as good as an AIO. This is also confirmed on Gamers Nexus and Linus Tech Tips and elsewhere. Just go and do some research.

Agreed. Never had an AIO have a problem, been using them since Sandy Bridge. They're all still ticking too.
 
Agreed. Never had an AIO have a problem, been using them since Sandy Bridge. They're all still ticking too.

As mentioned, I have a d15, and have a case I would probably need to swap up if I went AIO. That’s fine, it’s just time and money. Time I have right now, money I don’t (lost job/covid)
 
As mentioned, I have a d15, and have a case I would probably need to swap up if I went AIO. That’s fine, it’s just time and money. Time I have right now, money I don’t (lost job/covid)
Ugh. :( Sorry :(
 
Make up your minds people. :) When I recommend something from AMD, people say I'm biased towards AMD. When I recommend Intel, I get told I'm biased towards Intel. To quote Kyle Bennett: "I must be doing something right."

Let me be absolutely clear here. I don't give a shit about brand loyalty. Period. I've owned plenty of AMD and Intel CPU's over the years. Whatever is faster for my purposes is what I tend to buy. However, I personally do not focus on gaming performance alone. There are applications and tasks in which your CPU choice makes no difference. You could use a lowly Core i3 whatever from a couple years ago and it would do the work just fine. I web browse and do general application usage on both Intel and AMD systems all the time. I literally have a 9900K, 10900K, 3900X and 3950X systems all within the same 15 feet of wall space across my test bench and desk.

I don't notice the difference between any of them for basic tasks. Again, I never thought it was necessary to state whether Intel or AMD CPU's were better at doing your taxes, surfing the web, watching Pornhub or Netflix. I figured that enthusiasts and readers of these forums were smart enough to know that without me saying so. I figured they would be smart enough to realize that these weren't the tasks I was talking about.

And because you seem to have difficulties reading it, and you continue to ignore the paragraph right above what you cherry picked and quoted: "Outside of gaming is where things fall apart for Intel. However, most people don't really do the types of things with their systems that really benefit from the massive increases we've had in CPU cores in the last two years or so. The fact is, software hasn't really caught up to those increases yet and probably won't for years. That assumes the application can even benefit from additional parallel processing in the first place. Some simply can't benefit from that. Again, while AMD is clearly the winner in anything multi-threaded, the difference for most people is largely academic. This is a "buy whatever" you want type of situation. You have to have pretty specific use cases for someone to say with certainty that AMD will really benefit you over what Intel offers. If you aren't doing a ton of video editing and encoding, or a ton of virtualization work I'd largely say that either option would generally work about the same."

So, what does the above paragraph mean? I clearly state that while Intel is weaker in non-gaming tasks, the difference isn't something you are going to notice. I specifically stated that you would need very specific applications or workloads to see a real difference between the two products. How can I be more clear about this? You seem to like to cherry pick things I've said and twist them to sell people on your perceived narrative. Again, I picked one graph out of my entire review to illustrate a point. But here is the entire review for those who want the full story. Since I can't count on you understanding the contents, I'll summarize for you: Intel wins and loses in some applications. It loses at most of them. It wins in virtually all the games.

When it comes to gaming, when you are CPU limited such as you often are at 1920x1080, you will see a greater benefit to going Intel. At 4K, it's not quite so black and white. In some games, the difference will certainly be there because not every game is necessarily only going to be GPU limited. CPU performance factors in as well. It depends on the engine and what game we are talking about. However, in strictly GPU limited games, the spread across all the test systems was very small. The Ghost Recon graph is what I used to illustrate this point. It does not, in any way indicate that this is true of all games and that at 4K, your CPU makes little difference. This would be a generalization that isn't strictly accurate.

Doom Eternal on the other hand is a mess, and it's hard to quantify exactly what the results meant as they were all over the place. This is why I didn't include that graph. Destiny 2 shows quite a different story than Ghost Recon does as it isn't strictly GPU limited.

View attachment 250484

It's also an example where Intel and AMD are much closer in terms of performance. This is actually a different test than my previous Destiny 2 tests, so keep that in mind. The results aren't comparable. But, as you can see, the averages are fairly close acros the board and you only see massive changes in the average when overclocking Intel CPU's comes into play. Again, you missed the part where I said specific game analysis was necessary to determine which CPU was truly better.

Now, the real reasons I've been saying that AMD is generally the better buy is due to the fact that you get a greater core count for the same money. As this is demonstrably true, and AMD is faster at multi-threaded performance, it usually makes more sense. You can also factor in motherboard considerations and the recent price drops into that equation. Intel is faster at gaming for sure, but usually, when comparing the 9900K to the 3900X, the latter is on aggregate only about 5-6% slower. Generally, that's not a big enough gap to change that. The Core i9-10900K is a different animal as it extends this lead to a greater extent and is surprisingly competitive in various applications. The data so far shows considerable improvements to gaming performance. But, it still doesn't match the much cheaper 3900X in non-gaming applications where CPU performance matters. Again, that doesn't mean we are talking about TurboTax or anything else. We are talking about video editing, rendering and virtualization where those extra cores negate any advantages Intel has as far as clock speed or design.

It's all about what's important to you. Perhaps I chose the wrong word as you can't seem to get off the word "all". It was meant as a generalization. If all you do is play games, then Intel is the superior choice in terms of raw performance. That statement itself does not indicate that Intel is awful at non-gaming or trivial tasks such as those that can be done on a phone or tablet just as easily. You are inferring meaning where there is none. In contrast, generally speaking, AMD's offerings are faster for non-gaming tasks. This statement usually, but not always holds true. This statement also does not mean that AMD CPU's suck at gaming. I can provide plenty of data showing that they don't. However, there are still specific situations where AMD would be worth going to for non-gaming use cases and ones where Intel would be the preferred option for specific games.

At this point, I hope I've made myself clear. If you don't understand what I meant at this point, you probably never will. Since everyone else seems to have understood what I said, I'll have to also assume that it's you and not me that's the problem here and move on from this topic.
You're obviously biased for Intel and AMD!!!! You can't fool us ;). Seriously, if you get complaints that you're biased both ways it just means your doing good. And arguing with a fanboy from Intel or AMD that is just going to take everything they can out of context to try to prove a point that you aleady agree with and make it about themselves is how they role. Snowdog is almost as bad of an Intel guy as ManOfGod is for AMD. The difference is ManOfGod will at least admit he likes AMD and doesn't claim to be impartial. It's a lost cause, everyone else understands your point easily as you stated it concisely. Only someone WANTING to get another meaning out of it possibly could have. Thanks for the in depth posts and helpful benchmarking, most of us appreciate it.
 
Yeah I am considering an aio, but the potential for failure vs the difference is not worth the risk

I just went with my first aio. I have used air coolers for over twenty years in my builds. I'm impressed with it so far as my 9900K doesn't get very hot at all after a few gaming sessions.
 
I just went with my first aio. I have used air coolers for over twenty years in my builds. I'm impressed with it so far as my 9900K doesn't get very hot at all after a few gaming sessions.

Gaming doesn’t really heat the 9900k much at all in my experience (50w tops), try encoding or rendering
 
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Gaming doesn’t really heat the 9900k much at all in my experience (50w tops), try encoding or rendering

It really doesn't. That's why I stability test an overclock with encoding and rendering tasks before settling on clock speeds for gaming benchmarks. Prime95 and other stress testers have their place too, but I've found things like Handbrake encoding or the Blender benchmark to be better indicators of stability and far more indicative of what you'll see during actual workloads.
 
For me, there are a lot of considerations I make and put behind what I buy. I still may buy AMD. Let's see what their single core performance is like. From what I am hearing, their new memory controller is going to fix a lot of AMD's memory issues. That sounds promising. Also, single core performance is supposed to increast 10 - 12 - 15%. If I can get an AMD 16 Core that beats Intel across the board, gaming and productivity then I will make the move. I have a feeling that Intel is still going to be extremely competitive. I really think Intel could possible have a 10nm 20 core CPU to take on AMD in the coming months. They could easily fit 20 Cores @ 10nm on their new 1200 socket. Even 18 Core 10nm could very possibly run at 4.8+ all cores. I mean, it's so exciting to think about this massive push between AMD and Intel that really benefits us PC guys. So god damn exciting.
 
For me, there are a lot of considerations I make and put behind what I buy. I still may buy AMD. Let's see what their single core performance is like. From what I am hearing, their new memory controller is going to fix a lot of AMD's memory issues. That sounds promising. Also, single core performance is supposed to increast 10 - 12 - 15%. If I can get an AMD 16 Core that beats Intel across the board, gaming and productivity then I will make the move. I have a feeling that Intel is still going to be extremely competitive. I really think Intel could possible have a 10nm 20 core CPU to take on AMD in the coming months. They could easily fit 20 Cores @ 10nm on their new 1200 socket. Even 18 Core 10nm could very possibly run at 4.8+ all cores. I mean, it's so exciting to think about this massive push between AMD and Intel that really benefits us PC guys. So god damn exciting.
Coming months? You mean end of next year? I don't think it's as close as you're hoping, but would be happy to be wrong. AMD is probably going to be out much sooner than Intel's next release (just based on Intel just had a release and AMD released almost a year ago now).

Edit:. It is exciting though, hoping they both start bringing some great things coming up.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if nobody releases another CPU this year other than the AMD refresh.
 
I also looked into going to AMD this round. The deal fell through when only their top 3 Threadrippers (3960X 3970X 3990X) supported 4+ PCIE sockets, and quad channel memory. The cost increase wasn't worth it over Intel's 109xx X series after the price drop, plus quad channel memory (in my experience) gives a platform much more staying power before an upgrade is warranted. I finally found a 10940X at retail price and haven't looked back. Maybe in four years or so when PCIE 4.0 really matters for gamers I'll upgrade again :p

Queue the flames!
 
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