I'm not going to buy a GPU with a hash limiter

Nebell

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,971
I know it's rough for gamers with miners snatching the cards, but I call bullshit on that.
I do not think miners are using scripts to snatch cards (instead scalpers are doing that). I think Nvidia is selling those cards to miners directly.

I mine with my gaming card when I'm not at my PC.
It's a fun way to learn something and get some profit back. If it pays for internet, electricity and eventually the card, why not? Top end GPU has tripled in price over the course of 10 years.

And I also think that limiting something on a card is a good reason for a lawsuit.
 

doubletake

Gawd
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
741
Top end GPU has tripled in price over the course of 10 years.

And I also think that limiting something on a card is a good reason for a lawsuit.

akchually, it's only about doubled, but that's if you go off of the GTX 590 instead of the 580 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

And thinking that limiting a product before it's even purchased being something lawsuit-worthy is hilarious. That makes 0 sense. They don't owe you anything before you've purchased the product, and as long as they don't do anything to negatively affect the performance or its feature set after you purchase it is all that matters. You should always get what you pay for, but you shouldn't get to complain and start trying to litigate over something that you don't even own.
 

Nebell

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,971
akchually, it's only about doubled, but that's if you go off of the GTX 590 instead of the 580 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

And thinking that limiting a product before it's even purchased being something lawsuit-worthy is hilarious. That makes 0 sense. They don't owe you anything before you've purchased the product, and as long as they don't do anything to negatively affect the performance or its feature set after you purchase it is all that matters. You should always get what you pay for, but you shouldn't get to complain and start trying to litigate over something that you don't even own.

Uh, there are plenty of examples out there that you can and has been done. You don't need to own a product to sue someone over it.
 

Crosshairs

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Messages
24,607
I don't get why so many people are cheering the idea of a mining limiter on their cards, elsewhere. Why cheer removal of features?
if its a feature I dont use, why would I care? ...if I could buy a top end gaming card for 700 bucks that wont mine, I would order it today.
if it does not affect my use of the product Im fine with it
I can guarantee you I am not alone in this line of thinking.
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
28,448
How much do you want to bet that going forward this is going to be more artificial product segmentation. Pay an extra $200 for a mining capable card vs. the non mining capable one.

Realistically though, this is nonsense. It doesn't stop mining with cards, it only cripples the ETH hashrate. There are other algos you can mine with (albeit at less profitability).
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
28,448
if its a feature I dont use, why would I care? ...if I could buy a top end gaming card for 700 bucks that wont mine, I would order it today.
if it does not affect my use of the product Im fine with it
I can guarantee you I am not alone in this line of thinking.

The funny thing is that people think this is going to somehow help with availability. You still won't be able to get a $700 top end gaming card.
 

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
51,793
If you believe Nvidia is doing CMP cards and limiting mining on gaming cards is for the benefit of gamers, you have been hoodwinked. This is all being done to limit the impact of a gaming card price crash when the crypto bubble bursts. It is about keeping prices high on the secondary market and not pulling down new cards with it.
 

Rizen

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2000
Messages
9,471
Cryptocurrency is a cancer. I can't wait for this to all crash down again. It's not investing, it's gambling. It's a huge waste of resources and electricity. Global bitcoin mining uses more power than many smaller nations, like Norway or Ecuador. What is the point?
 

Zeoclang

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
107
Nvidias primary goal is to make as much profit as possible. It is unfortunate they think the best way to do this is by slowing down their normal cards. If they want to be successful selling their CMP mining cards they have to attempt to limit the normal ones. ETH isn't the only thing to mine. There are many others that are just as profitable and probably aren't impacted by the limiter.
 

x509

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
2,630
Cryptocurrency is a cancer. I can't wait for this to all crash down again. It's not investing, it's gambling. It's a huge waste of resources and electricity. Global bitcoin mining uses more power than many smaller nations, like Norway or Ecuador. What is the point?
An asset bubble. When the bubble bursts, a lot of "little guys" will be hurt badly, just as a lot of people got hurt with Gamestop.
 

Aireoth

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
5,160
I know it's rough for gamers with miners snatching the cards, but I call bullshit on that.
I do not think miners are using scripts to snatch cards (instead scalpers are doing that). I think Nvidia is selling those cards to miners directly.

I mine with my gaming card when I'm not at my PC.
It's a fun way to learn something and get some profit back. If it pays for internet, electricity and eventually the card, why not? Top end GPU has tripled in price over the course of 10 years.

And I also think that limiting something on a card is a good reason for a lawsuit.

Good luck suing someone for selling something as advertised.

Seems like you always want to scream about something. You can buy what you want, but there is absolutely a market for GPUs that are made for gamers and not mining.
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
28,448
We're on bubble #3 or #4 now. That's one of the problems with the entire premise, the volatility. I'm not parking money in something that swings 20-50% in valuation frequently.

And then there are others like me who made 900% on my money.

You think Crypto is the only volatile asset? Oil went from $60 a barrel to $15 a barrel in 2020. The DOW was between 19,000 and 30,000 in 2020.
 

Rizen

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2000
Messages
9,471
You think Crypto is the only volatile asset? Oil went from $60 a barrel to $15 a barrel in 2020. The DOW was between 19,000 and 30,000 in 2020.
I would honestly argue that crypto isn't even an asset.

Oil has intrinsic value. Crypto does not.

And yes, stock markets can be volatile, but people invest in them because historically they have shown long term stable growth.

1620236608256.png
 

MrSneis

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
2,616
My issue is. How can we be sure that these cards aren't gimped somewhere else or will be gimped sometime else in the future? How would you like buying a car and not getting the full performance out of the thing that you paid for? I guess Dieselgate is an interesting example of that. Who doesn't want to extract the full performance of the parts we pay for? That is the [H] way is it not?
 

pendragon1

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 7, 2000
Messages
28,134
My issue is. How can we be sure that these cards aren't gimped somewhere else or will be gimped sometime else in the future? How would you like buying a car and not getting the full performance out of the thing that you paid for? I guess Dieselgate is an interesting example of that. Who doesn't want to extract the full performance of the parts we pay for? That is the [H] way is it not?
they are designed for gaming. if they game at the levels stated, who cares about crypto?!
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
28,448
I would honestly argue that crypto isn't even an asset.

Oil has intrinsic value. Crypto does not.

And yes, stock markets can be volatile, but people invest in them because historically they have shown long term stable growth.

View attachment 353504

One could argue that crypto has has substantial and progressive growth over it's smaller sample of years.

I would argue there is intrinsic value. Obviously not every shit coin has the same value. But that really isn't the point of this thread.
 

JSHamlet234

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 9, 2021
Messages
240
My issue is. How can we be sure that these cards aren't gimped somewhere else or will be gimped sometime else in the future? How would you like buying a car and not getting the full performance out of the thing that you paid for? I guess Dieselgate is an interesting example of that. Who doesn't want to extract the full performance of the parts we pay for? That is the [H] way is it not?

Post-ex-facto gimping is something you can sue over. Pre-purchase gimping is OK, apparently, as long as you're informed about it first. I would guess that more than 75% of the CPUs sold in the past year have at least 2 cores disabled that would have worked perfectly fine. Don't even get me started on PCI-E lanes, multi-processor support, support for ECC RAM, security features, parts of instruction sets... what else, am I missing anything?
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
28,448
Post-ex-facto gimping is something you can sue over. Pre-purchase gimping is OK, apparently, as long as you're informed about it first. I would guess that more than 75% of the CPUs sold in the past year have at least 2 cores disabled that would have worked perfectly fine.

I don't think that's the right analogy. I would argue its more like the difference between the Core and Xeon lines. Intel gimps the Core line in certain regards for product segmentation.
 

JSHamlet234

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 9, 2021
Messages
240
Don't even get me started on PCI-E lanes, multi-processor support, support for ECC RAM, security features, parts
I don't think that's the right analogy. I would argue its more like the difference between the Core and Xeon lines. Intel gimps the Core line in certain regards for product segmentation.
Yeah, I actually editted the Xeon stuff in before you posted, but that's a good point either way.
 

TheSlySyl

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
1,263
Awesome.

Hopefully I can actually buy a fucking GPU upgrade then because one less sale for you is one more potential sale for me!
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,263
Nvidia can artificially limit a given card and we can buy or buy not that card. No problem. The thought that this some how helps the gamer is laughable. Also GPUs are not just for gaming, the gamer have no absolute right for exclusive first dibs on GPUs. GPUs are used for many things, video work, rendering, Cad, AI, scientific work and so on. If one wants a gaming design, purely designed for a gamer than buy a Console is my thought on that. This can lead into more limitations, if accepted, in the future from Nvidia, like maybe Cad or rendering and other stuff. You may have to buy a license or licenses (like a number of car manufacturers do on vehicles that have all the stuff onboard but you can't use) in order for you to use it for something different, maybe even a gaming license :D.

2.5 billion adults in the world, estimated, have no bank accounts. For many reasons, mainly not available or just plan out too expensive to use or fraudulent from governments or lack there of. Crypto has been a god send so to speak given opportunity for millions to get into the World economics and growing rapidly. Making broad based generalizations about Crypto value I think misses the mark, for example, Tether and USDC coins are stable coins, every one is backed up by a real dollar and have exactly the value of the dollar (which is sinking for the most part). Ethereum has billions of dollars being used in smart contracts for projects (real world things) and growing which traditional fiat money cannot even touch.
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,263
Awesome.

Hopefully I can actually buy a fucking GPU upgrade then because one less sale for you is one more potential sale for me!
How did that work for you with the 3060 and all the specific mining cards being produced now by Nvidia? (Vice more available cards that can do it all and not be limited.)
 

TheSlySyl

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
1,263
How did that work for you with the 3060 and all the specific mining cards being produced now by Nvidia? (Vice more available cards that can do it all and not be limited.)
A 3060 is more of a sidegrade so it's not on my radar. Especially at current prices.
 

pendragon1

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 7, 2000
Messages
28,134
They are designed to do calculations. In my mind this is no different than a quadro card artificial segmentation to milk profits to a certain subset of users.
thats nice, i dont see it that way. if quadros couldnt game, i wouldnt care.
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
28,448
A 3060 is more of a sidegrade so it's not on my radar. Especially at current prices.

That doesn't change the fact that it is still mining limited (to a degree), cheaper, yet not available.

Why do you think a Ti variant of higher end GPUs will be?
 
  • Like
Reactions: noko
like this

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,263
A 3060 is more of a sidegrade so it's not on my radar. Especially at current prices.
Well Nvidia HX90, GA 102 die from Samsung, mining card is taking away the supply of GPUs for the the broader base market and gaming. That is not making more available gaming cards for people to buy, just the opposite. Limiting capability gives Nvidia the benefit, not the users. If this leads into a license to use type scenario, which Nvidia is doing for AI workloads with their software is to be seen. For example, to mine with your 3080 Ti, pay Nvidia $60/month for a license, minimum 1 year term.

https://wccftech.com/nvidias-cmp-cr...02-while-50hx-40hx-30hx-based-on-turing-gpus/

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/cmp/
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,263
As for the Crypto mining aspect, Nvidia limiting broad based GPU cards => that is actually anti Crypto => promotes big players, centralization, control etc. vice a broad based trustworthy means for validation of a given blockchain. Nvidia is not even helping out the Crypto community and farting on the gaming community at the same time with a smile. This is only for Nvidia bottom line period. Hopefully it will backfire big.
 

x509

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
2,630
Well Nvidia HX90, GA 102 die from Samsung, mining card is taking away the supply of GPUs for the the broader base market and gaming. That is not making more available gaming cards for people to buy, just the opposite. Limiting capability gives Nvidia the benefit, not the users. If this leads into a license to use type scenario, which Nvidia is doing for AI workloads with their software is to be seen. For example, to mine with your 3080 Ti, pay Nvidia $60/month for a license, minimum 1 year term.

https://wccftech.com/nvidias-cmp-cr...02-while-50hx-40hx-30hx-based-on-turing-gpus/

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/cmp/
Be careful, very careful, what you wish for. If Nvidia can pull off this licensing for mining, then what's to stop them from licensing the drivers for general use, i.e. gameplay. As long as AMD is supply limited, Nvidia can centrally make their drivers a monthly subscription and make it stick. How about subscription prices that are higher for higher-performance cards? How would you like them apples?
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,263
Be careful, very careful, what you wish for. If Nvidia can pull off this licensing for mining, then what's to stop them from licensing the drivers for general use, i.e. gameplay. As long as AMD is supply limited, Nvidia can centrally make their drivers a monthly subscription and make it stick. How about subscription prices that are higher for higher-performance cards? How would you like them apples?
Exactly, must make those investors happy and keep coming back for more. Nvidia is already at 65% profit margins, must find new ways to bring in the cash. Needless to say Nvidia is already have a program for a license for gaming GPU usage, disguised somewhat but it is there. Geforce Now. Those GPUs being used are not hitting the market for folks to buy. Jack up the prices of GPU's, limit uses and folks will flock to the huge centralized store of GPUs for gaming where Nvidia has 100% control. People will just say, why even buy a top end computer, even a smart TV while Nvidia slowly jacks up the price higher and higher. Even their limited future CPU will be enough for GeForce Now embedded in a multitude of HDTVs maybe. Then again guess work usually is wrong dealing with what future Nvidia will bring.
 

Dan_D

Extremely [H]
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
58,200
I know it's rough for gamers with miners snatching the cards, but I call bullshit on that.
I do not think miners are using scripts to snatch cards (instead scalpers are doing that). I think Nvidia is selling those cards to miners directly.

I mine with my gaming card when I'm not at my PC.
It's a fun way to learn something and get some profit back. If it pays for internet, electricity and eventually the card, why not? Top end GPU has tripled in price over the course of 10 years.

And I also think that limiting something on a card is a good reason for a lawsuit.

I'll agree with you on the first part. As for the second, I don't think the math really works out on that. I for one spend far too much time working on my PC or playing games to ever make a significant amount of money back on mining. Even if I wasn't, there are power considerations. I vaguely recall seeing an article on this topic and kind of like early hybrid cars, the time it takes to break even given the high cost of entry just doesn't work out all that well. It's even worse if you actually pay scalpers prices for them as this would double the time it takes to recoup your initial cost for the card.

Personally, I'm all for gaming cards being shit at mining so I can get back to upgrading my rig when I want to in order to play the latest games at maximum settings wherever its technically possible to do so. I can understand not wanting to pay full price for a neutered card, but I never bought my RTX 3090 FE with mining in mind. I just wanted it for playing games and GPU acceleration in things like Photoshop, which were really secondary considerations. To be fair to NVIDIA, many companies have been producing specific variants of their hardware for certain markets for decades now. Intel set the standard for this even going so far as to produce ultra-specific CPU variants for the financial industry and things like that.

Lastly, on the subject of hash rate limits being worthy of a lawsuit, I call bullshit on that. First and foremost, nothing about the advertising of these GPU's or cards says anything about what kind of hash rate performance one can expect while mining with these GPU's. Only if the limitations imposed on the cards impacts compute performance would you even remotely have a leg to stand on with such a suit. For one thing, there is always that little fine print that says: "Specifications subject to change without notice." There are also companies that got away with far more egregious changes to their feature sets after the fact. Creative Labs was notorious for this. ASUS did it with their sound cards as well.

I think NVIDIA is also trying to throw gamers a bone by giving them cards that are undesirable to miners. Granted, I think its mostly a scalping problem rather than GPU mining demands that make these unavailable, but it would probably help somewhat as there is likely some crossover here.
 

OFaceSIG

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
2,697
I too think in the end Nvidia does nothing for the good of anyone but itself. I bought my evga 3080 ftw3 because it was my first and probably only shot to get one without being scalped. I actually wanted a 6800 XT but simply could not find one at or close to MSRP. In the end, people will buy what they can find and what they can afford, or more accurately *think* they can afford.
 

M76

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
11,967
I know it's rough for gamers with miners snatching the cards, but I call bullshit on that.
I do not think miners are using scripts to snatch cards (instead scalpers are doing that). I think Nvidia is selling those cards to miners directly.
Probably both are using scripts.
I mine with my gaming card when I'm not at my PC.
Shame, so you deny any personal responsibility for the utter waste of electricity that is mining? We used to blame big corporations for pollution, but now that small people actually have the opportunity to choose profits over pollution they are just as bad, if not worse.
It's a fun way to learn something and get some profit back.
Never heard that spin before. WTH do you learn by keeping your PC running at full blow sending resources down the drain? I guess we can learn how long before the grid crashes? What a worthy cause.
If it pays for internet, electricity and eventually the card, why not? Top end GPU has tripled in price over the course of 10 years.
Yeah. and here we go again the core of the problem: It's just what I gain, who cares about long term effects only my short term gains matter!
And I also think that limiting something on a card is a good reason for a lawsuit.
Not if it is a listed feature. They won't limit it on cards already sold as is.
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,263
I'll agree with you on the first part. As for the second, I don't think the math really works out on that. I for one spend far too much time working on my PC or playing games to ever make a significant amount of money back on mining. Even if I wasn't, there are power considerations. I vaguely recall seeing an article on this topic and kind of like early hybrid cars, the time it takes to break even given the high cost of entry just doesn't work out all that well. It's even worse if you actually pay scalpers prices for them as this would double the time it takes to recoup your initial cost for the card.

Personally, I'm all for gaming cards being shit at mining so I can get back to upgrading my rig when I want to in order to play the latest games at maximum settings wherever its technically possible to do so. I can understand not wanting to pay full price for a neutered card, but I never bought my RTX 3090 FE with mining in mind. I just wanted it for playing games and GPU acceleration in things like Photoshop, which were really secondary considerations. To be fair to NVIDIA, many companies have been producing specific variants of their hardware for certain markets for decades now. Intel set the standard for this even going so far as to produce ultra-specific CPU variants for the financial industry and things like that.

Lastly, on the subject of hash rate limits being worthy of a lawsuit, I call bullshit on that. First and foremost, nothing about the advertising of these GPU's or cards says anything about what kind of hash rate performance one can expect while mining with these GPU's. Only if the limitations imposed on the cards impacts compute performance would you even remotely have a leg to stand on with such a suit. For one thing, there is always that little fine print that says: "Specifications subject to change without notice." There are also companies that got away with far more egregious changes to their feature sets after the fact. Creative Labs was notorious for this. ASUS did it with their sound cards as well.

I think NVIDIA is also trying to throw gamers a bone by giving them cards that are undesirable to miners. Granted, I think its mostly a scalping problem rather than GPU mining demands that make these unavailable, but it would probably help somewhat as there is likely some crossover here.
There is a misconception I do believe, limiting the GPU mining will make them more available for gamers. The big question is if the card is profitable or not, if still profitable but less so can lead into more cards being bought for mining. If the card is profitable, even the RX 6800 at 60mh/s is way profitable currently at $7/day makes them buyable for mining. In other words this can make things worst, yeah the 3080 Ti is limited to 60mh/s let say (if not bypassed), makes them profitable and more importantly sellable later if market conditions look like they are going to change => viable mining card. The limitation hurts the gamer who wants to recoup some of the expense of the card.
 

vegeta535

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
6,503
I too think in the end Nvidia does nothing for the good of anyone but itself. I bought my evga 3080 ftw3 because it was my first and probably only shot to get one without being scalped. I actually wanted a 6800 XT but simply could not find one at or close to MSRP. In the end, people will buy what they can find and what they can afford, or more accurately *think* they can afford.
Really? A business that looks out for itself first and foremost. I am shocked I tell you. I reality people are no different. They look out for themselves first. Hence the scalping.
 
Top