id Software's Official DOOM3 Benchmarks

UDP is part of the TCP/IP suite. TCP is connection oriented, which adds over head but is more reliable, were UDP is connectionless. best what to explain it, its UDP is like sending a post card, where TCP is more like a phone call, with a post card, you don't know if it will make it to the destination, but a phone call you know the info is getting to the person and can even check that with them. Alot of games use UDP for the lower over head, but add ways of checking the datagrams. Also TCP makes sure things are sent in order, where as with UDP doesnt care about that. Games uses this since if one packet gets held up, it doesnt mater cause one with newer info came and its got the info it needs. They game makes up for the loss by simple doing with the player what it would expect them to do.
 
Pretty cool stuff, glad I am used to making headshots in fps for some time now....

will come in handy.... I pity the spray and pray types who play doom 3

bring on the game already!!
 
Suicide King said:
Type R, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but i think it might be the per poly hit detection, so that's what i'll deal with. basically, so far, all shooters have had hit detection boxes around player, for damage detection, such as headshots, you simply differentiate between the box around the head model and the rest of the body, and assign a damage value. No matter how sall the boxes though, it has always been possible to actually hit someone by shooting near them, which means the bullet trajectory might have missed the character model altogether, but it intersected with the bounding box and thus registered a hit.
The thing with Doom 3 is, It handles hit detection on a per polygon basis, which means, it's way harder to hit the things, you can't jsut shoot reasonably near them, but you actually have to hit the model. Now I know you're probably thinking, pff, big deal, it won't make that much of a difference, but the fact is, when the developpers themselves were testing it out, they spent quite a while trying to figure out why they weren't hitting each other, they wondered if maybe they had assigned too much health to the characters, or maybe the collision detection wasn't working, they found out though, that they were simply missing the other players.
Now let that sink in, the devs who have been probably been playing fps's all their lives suddenly took a huge drop in hit success, it does make a pretty big difference. For example when I tried the leaked version, (wasn't even really an alpha the version n° was 0.002 lol). I tried it. You could shoot between the toes and fingers of the monsters, I swear i shotgunned an imp then tested it, you could machine gun the space between the fingers, and hit the floor, same with the toes, or under the arms and legs, it really works and makes a huge difference.
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Doom3 isn't the first game to have per-poly hit detection, you know. I'd list off a few that did, but I forgot what they were =P

UPDATE: I just loaded up the alpha and tried what you said. It really is there, pretty cool. It's like right down to the pixil. If the crosshair was barely even on the character it'd it, if it was barely off it would miss. HUGE improvement from the pathetically huge hitboxes in Q3.
 
I want to say Soldier of Fortune II was per-poly (or at least some variant of it), considering you could blow off fingers or put a hole in the skull or any location you specifically aim at.

But I could be wrong...
 
The Ghoul 2 Engine used in SoF 2 wasn't per poly, just involved lots of bounding boxes lol, btw, can't friggin wait for SoF 3 on a modified Doom 3 engine. The marks on the body were just decal placements on the coordinates of wherever your bullet hit.
*edit*, might not have been so much mutiple bounding boxes as various coordinate regroupments determining when a model should be replaced with it's mutilated version (simulated multiple bounding boxes i guess...), still wasn't per poly though.
 
Sounds cool. I didnt say that D3 was unmoddable, your putting words in my mouth again. I just said HL2 is. The whole poly hit idea is something that is really important in FPS games. Anyone know if a similar deal is implemented in HL2? Those that play CS know that the good players get non stop headshots. From what I have seen in other games ie. Painkiller and UT2004 (not so much) it is just a giant clickathon. I think that CS just needs more precise hit zones in order to keep the veterans training hard. When I talk to people that dont play CS but have tried it, they complain that CS is just full of hackers, however its just because people play CS like a sport and have perfected it. Anyways I rambled. I just think itd be cool if HL2 has this per poly hit thingy.
 
TyP3-R said:
they complain that CS is just full of hackers, however its just because people play CS like a sport and have perfected it.
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I tried it for a month, ran a server for a while, ended up with some guy spoofing a player on it that weekend. never touched it since.

also, people have perfected there game play at Quake 3 as well, but I don't read all the forums about it to see how many people complain about cheaters.
 
well, first got into cs at a lan, then go steam, mostly played de_rats map. my legit cd-key for whatever reason stopped working. never played it since. steam is just too damn buggy
 
Sorry, last I heard it wasn't implemented in HL 2, but I don't follow HL 2 as closely as doom 3, I could very well be wrong, I would just have thought they would have announced it had it been there. Lol, and TypeR, would you mind quoting what you're referring to? I'm just always checking my posts to see if I' was the one you're referencing ;) as having misquoted you. But one the subject of modability, doom 3 is shipping with the toolset the devs used, and I already know at least 5 mods that people are working on, a lot of one are based off of the leaked version code though lol. They'll definitely be a co-op mod soon after it hits the market, as well as a bigger deathmatch. But the reason Deathmatch is limited is, as has already been stated by someone else, to give people a hint as to how much of a bandwith hog this game will be, from what I understood, it's mainly the physics and audio engines that will be bandwith intensive.
 
Suicide King said:
Sorry, last I heard it wasn't implemented in HL 2, but I don't follow HL 2 as closely as doom 3, I could very well be wrong, I would just have thought they would have announced it had it been there. Lol, and TypeR, would you mind quoting what you're referring to? I'm just always checking my posts to see if I' was the one you're referencing ;) as having misquoted you. but one the subject of modability, doom 3 is shipping with the toolset the devs used, and I already know at least 5 mods that people are working on, a lot of one are based off of the leaked version code though lol. They'll definitely be a co-op mod soon after it hits the market, as well as a bigger deathmatch. but the reason Deathmatch is limited is, as has already been stated is to give people a hint as to how much of a bandwith hog this game will be, from what I understood, it's mainly the physics and audio engines that will be bandwith intensive.
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in all honesty, half-life 2 will be the one watched for mods. be it counter-strike 2/team fortress 2/day of defeat 2. i've been following a resident evil like one (looks pretty amazing actually), and it could be a game using the havok 2 engine if you ask me ;D
 
Xipher said:
I just found an interesting text file about per-poly collisions
http://www.telefragged.com/thefatal/q_tutorials/quake_perpoly_collision.txt

I think its talking about how to add per-poly hit detection in the GL version of the original Quake. I could be wrong though. Plus, they say at the top they don't know if it would work at all if using a Dedicated server, as they weren't sure if the needed data was there.
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Per-poly hit detection is the wave of the future, and has begun to be implemented in the newest games. If you just browse the tute quoted above, you can see that it is going to be far more computationally-intensive than the old-style bounding boxes.

If you don't know what a bounding box is, check out this tutorial on the Quake III Arena bounding box for the "Bitterman" model (God, that brings back memories! :) ):

http://www.quakeskills.com/index.php?page=tutorials

The whole point of the tute is that a hit anywhere in the box is a hit, anywhere outside the box is a miss, no matter where the model image appears to the player.

Per-poly hit detection means a hit is only a hit if it hits a polygon (i.e., a triangle) that actually makes up part of the player model.
 
Granted, there will be a huge modding effort for HL 2 no denying that, and in all probability more than doom3, however I was just pointing out that doom 3 came with the dev tools, and also based on the amount of mods for quake 3, there shoudld be a fairly large mod community, I'm waiting for the true combat mod on the doom3 engine to counter counterstrike on half life 2 for example, not to mention all the fun random little ones such as the dbz mod for example.
 
Suicide King said:
Granted, there will be a huge modding effort for HL 2 no denying that, and in all probability more than doom3, however I was just pointing out that doom 3 came with the dev tools, and also based on the amount of mods for quake 3, there shoudld be a fairly large mod community, I'm waiting for the true combat mod on the doom3 engine to counter counterstrike on half life 2 for example, not to mention all the fun random little ones such as the dbz mod for example.
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I loved Urban Terror for Quake 3 (much better than CS in my opinion). I hope they make a new one for Doom 3 or for Quake 4 when it comes out.
 
Suicide King said:
Granted, there will be a huge modding effort for HL 2 no denying that, and in all probability more than doom3, however I was just pointing out that doom 3 came with the dev tools, and also based on the amount of mods for quake 3, there shoudld be a fairly large mod community, I'm waiting for the true combat mod on the doom3 engine to counter counterstrike on half life 2 for example, not to mention all the fun random little ones such as the dbz mod for example.
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i would love to see a counter-strike like game on the doom 3 engine
 
Suicide King said:
Lol, and TypeR, would you mind quoting what you're referring to? I'm just always checking my posts to see if I' was the one you're referencing ;) as having misquoted you.
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Sorry I am at work and each time I come back to read this thread there are like 15 posts so instead of trying to switch back and forth between pages, copying and pasting, I just say whats on my mind. Dont have much time to go through looking for who said what.
 
Xrave said:
I loved Urban Terror for Quake 3 (much better than CS in my opinion). I hope they make a new one for Doom 3 or for Quake 4 when it comes out.
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Agreed!

Urban Terror is what is known as a "Total Conversion," or "TC," something that has long been the (exclusive?) domain of Quake-engine games. (CS characterizes itself as a "Mod" of the HL engine, and I would agree with the distinction.)

The current version of Urban Terror is v3.7, and I believe that starting with v4.0 it will be on the RtCW/ET engine, which is itself an elaboration of the Q3A engine.

Find out more about Urban Terror here:

http://urbanterror.net
 
Suicide King - excellent post on the hit detection. I'm very interested in seeing how it works out. You really will have to be accurate in death match imo.

So this mean potential for more accurate damage, e.g. you can do damage to each indivisual finger, toe; is it possible for the developer to set it up that way? The different types of damage you could do to each section of the body will be...interesting :D
 
TyP3-R said:
Sorry I am at work and each time I come back to read this thread there are like 15 posts so instead of trying to switch back and forth between pages, copying and pasting, I just say whats on my mind. Dont have much time to go through looking for who said what.
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But we apparently have time to figure out what you were referring to?

FWIW, I have read every post in this thread in its entirety.

While I don't suggest that it is necessary for you to do so, it is just common courtesy (and common sense) to quote what you are referring to, if you expect others to pay attention to "what's on [your] mind."

And BTW, is it unnecessary to do any "cutting and pasting," that is what the "quote" button in the corner of every post is for.
 
Suicide King said:
Type R, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but i think it might be the per poly hit detection, so that's what i'll deal with. Basically, so far, all shooters have had hit detection boxes around player, for damage detection, such as headshots, you simply differentiate between the box around the head model and the rest of the body, and assign a damage value. No matter how sall the boxes though, it has always been possible to actually hit someone by shooting near them, which means the bullet trajectory might have missed the character model altogether, but it intersected with the bounding box and thus registered a hit.
The thing with Doom 3 is, It handles hit detection on a per polygon basis, which means, it's way harder to hit the things, you can't jsut shoot reasonably near them, but you actually have to hit the model. Now I know you're probably thinking, pff, big deal, it won't make that much of a difference, but the fact is, when the developpers themselves were testing it out, they spent quite a while trying to figure out why they weren't hitting each other, they wondered if maybe they had assigned too much health to the characters, or maybe the collision detection wasn't working, they found out though, that they were simply missing the other players.
Now let that sink in, the devs who have been probably been playing fps's all their lives suddenly took a huge drop in hit success, it does make a pretty big difference. For example when I tried the leaked version, (wasn't even really an alpha the version n° was 0.002 lol). I tried it. You could shoot between the toes and fingers of the monsters, I swear i shotgunned an imp then tested it, you could machine gun the space between the fingers, and hit the floor, same with the toes, or under the arms and legs, it really works and makes a huge difference.

Dang, happened again by the time I reply what i'm replying to is ten posts back heh.
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Ok guys there is no such thing as per poly collision (at least nothing that is suitable for games yet). As much as Havok or any other physics company or physics engine maker wants to say it is, there isn't. Physics is calculated on the skeletal system of a character (very easy to calcuate precentage of damage depending on which bone is hit). On static objects its calculated on all the polygons in the objects. Trying to calculate on a per poly basis only works if the object is split into individual polygons (if this was done in realtime to actaully find which polygons were hit on the object takes alot more calculation power then just calculating physics for all the polys in the object). In a 3d engine, if that was done well there will be so many objects it will crush the engine.

Since the skeleton mimics the mesh anyhow the end results are very correct Suicide King.
 
I dunno, I checked it out in the alpha today and it was accurate down to the pixil. The crosshair would literally be a pixil off of the model and it would miss.. then i'd move it one pixil over and it'd hit. It was like this on all parts of the model.
 
of couse the skeleton mimics the mesh almost exactly, if done by a good artist it will be exact. Don't know if ya guys are fimiliar with Maya (what they used for Doom3 models). When attaching a skeleton to a mesh (called rigging) they use influence zones. Depending on the zones the bones effect certian polygons and vertices. So if the engine uses these zones to calculate the phyiscs it will be a prefect 1 to 1 match.
 
rancor said:
Ok guys there is no such thing as per poly collision (at least nothing that is suitable for games yet). As much as Havok or any other physics company or physics engine maker wants to say it is, there isn't. Physics is calculated on the skeletal system of a character (very easy to calcuate precentage of damage depending on which bone is hit). On static objects its calculated on all the polygons in the objects. Trying to calculate on a per poly basis only works if the object is split into individual polygons (if this was done in realtime to actaully find which polygons were hit on the object takes alot more calculation power then just calculating physics for all the polys in the object). In a 3d engine, if that was done well there will be so many objects it will crush the engine.

Since the skeleton mimics the mesh anyhow the end results are very correct Suicide King.
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I am not so sure about this. Can you quote a source? Because there has been lots of chatter in other forums about D3's per-poly hit detection and Hollinshead and Willits certainly refer to it by that name.

Many ppl believe that this is the main reason for the 4-player MP limit, that the bandwidth to transmit all this data is prohibitive for more players.

I am not contradicting you, I would just like to see a source for this statement.
 
you guys will know soon enough :) I work for a game company. Just can't say which one yet. But we should be releasing some public enough soon.
 
i thought it was touted as per-pixel hit detection, which sounds way more accurate than per-poly...
 
rancor said:
you guys will know soon enough :) I work for a game company. Just can't say which one yet. But we should be releasing some public enough soon.
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'Nough said, and the Maya clarification you posted makes clear what you were getting at.

Thanks for the info! :)
 
rancor said:
Ok guys there is no such thing as per poly collision (at least nothing that is suitable for games yet). As much as Havok or any other physics company or physics engine maker wants to say it is, there isn't. Physics is calculated on the skeletal system of a character (very easy to calcuate precentage of damage depending on which bone is hit). On static objects its calculated on all the polygons in the objects. Trying to calculate on a per poly basis only works if the object is split into individual polygons (if this was done in realtime to actaully find which polygons were hit on the object takes alot more calculation power then just calculating physics for all the polys in the object). In a 3d engine, if that was done well there will be so many objects it will crush the engine.

Since the skeleton mimics the mesh anyhow the end results are very correct Suicide King.
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They are talking about hit detection, not collision detection.

lol per poly collision detection would be fun untill you get your arm stuck in a grate.

Btw in most games rag doll physics is a "mode" you die you go into rag mode, some may have it where it enables while getting hit momentarily (unreal 3 is one I know of) but you never walk around with skeletal collision detection.
 
theelviscerator said:
anyone else watched the videos so much they are practically salivating at the prospect of actually playing the game?
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Yes, and I recommend that you not only see the trailer, but the "Icons" video, "The History of Doom3."

The footage is extremely creepy, and the Icons movie highlights some of the sound design. There is one scene in which a disembodied female voice cries out in a gravelly whisper, "They took my baby!"
 
Lord of Shadows said:
They are talking about hit detection, not collision detection.

lol per poly collision detection would be fun untill you get your arm stuck in a grate.

Btw in most games rag doll physics is a "mode" you die you go into rag mode, some may have it where it enables while getting hit momentarily (unreal 3 is one I know of) but you never walk around with skeletal collision detection.
Click to expand...

LOL, yeah, I completely missed the fact that he said "collision detection!"

There is a big difference between "Did that guy encounter a wall?" and "Did that shotgun pellet hit the zombie?"
 
Hit detection is pretty much the same as polygon collision which is done exclusively on the skeletal system, otherwise the comp wouldn't know which polygon was hit. Rag doll is done off the skeletal system too, but it calculates off the IK chains of the skeleton to limit rotation and bending at the joints to give a realistic jointed body.

Hit dectection can be done in two different ways depending on the weapon and its special effect,

1) Ray tracing: a ray is casted from the gun or weapon to the object (if there is no projectile) ex. A hand gun or machine gun. If a hit occurs on a character mesh. Then the engine asks, which polygon was hit (so technically if the head was hit it is per polygon detection sort of). Then it says this is the bone that is effected since bone x is attached to this polygon.

2) Projectile: A projectile is fired from the gun ex: Rocket launcher. If a hit occurs on a character mesh. Then the engine asks, which polygon was hit (so technically it can be said it is per polygon detection) but in truth its the skeleton not the polygon. Then it says this is the bone that is effected since bone x is attached to this polygon.

Either way now the physics system says ok how much force and what direction did that force come from and is there a radius effect of that force. Now it goes back and says this is the bone or bones that effected. Runing through some physics equation (inverse kenimetics) pops out the end results :)

Very true hehe, its bad enough in some games today with getting stuck on corners and stuff in UT 2004 hehe
 
theelviscerator said:
anyone else watched the videos so much they are practically salivating at the prospect of actually playing the game?
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Me too... I have watched the G4TechTV special like 5 times now, and shown it to numerous other people. I am very excited. :D
 
rancor said:
Hit detection is pretty much the same as polygon collision which is done exclusively on the skeletal system, otherwise the comp wouldn't know which polygon was hit. Rag doll is done off the skeletal system too, but it calculates off the IK chains of the skeleton to limit rotation and bending at the joints to give a realistic jointed body.
<snip>
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Okay, I am starting to see where you are coming from, since you are interested in how the model reacts to the hit, which is based on the skeletal structure of the model.

When I say "hit detection," I am interested in the damage model, "Did I hit him or not, where, and how much damage did it do?"

D3 seems to me to have per-poly hit detection, as I understand it.

Whether it has "per-poly collision detection" which triggers the correct physical reaction in the model is another (clearly related) issue.

Regarding rag-doll physics (which some seem to regard as the Holy Grail of shooters ;) ), I would like to see it if only to forego the "diving-board-on-the-stairs" and "head-stuck-in-the-wall" dead bodies typical of most Quake-engine shooters.
 
Hey, just got back from playing Risk, lost the game on a friggin backstab lol. Anyways, yeah I was referring to the per poly damage model, it would indeed be way too cpu limiting to do per poly collision detection, however..... This brings up another issue, the collision detection in Doom3 is also the best I have ever seen.
As I remember it was best illustrated in two places in the Icon video. The first was relatively simple, when the imp drops down onto the stairs what I realized is as he took a step forward, one foot stayed on a higher stair wheras one came down two stairs for balance. Finally we won't deal with people gliding up stairs while some standard moving animation is played all the way, irregardless of a step's position relative to a foot.
Now secondly, and most impressive I thought, was when Pinky takes a shotgun blast to the head and slumps against a wall. The body starts desintegrating outward from the hit position. Now, initially, the head rests against the wall but as the body desintegrates, the model completely changes as the body gradually slumps further and further as the main part touching the wall dissapears, leaving only the mechanical hind legs. This was done in a completely beleivable way. Sorry if I'm not being to clear but watch the video and see if you can tell what i'm talking about.
And I just have to say, Doom 3 has the best animations I have ever seen, Fred Nilsson is a credit to id and has done an amazing job. The only animation I had an issue with, was as I mentioned, the shaking of the Archvile's head, it wasn't particularly bad, just sub-par compared to the rest of the game. The best examples I can think of, other than the monster movements, (pinky and the hell knight's approach most certianly qualify as terror inspiring) would be when the marine points in the direction you are supposed to go, and when the guy at the desk rolls his chair over to face the player in the cutscene.
 
tornadotsunamilife said:
i would love to see a counter-strike like game on the doom 3 engine
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Well there is revolt for CoD (blatent rip off off CS) and Frag Ops for UT2004 (another really close rip off of CS minus the bomb) so I figure there will be a CS like mod sometime in the next 6 months.
 
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