How Intel Feels about PC Users

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Kyle_Bennett, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Kyle_Bennett

    Kyle_Bennett El Chingón Staff Member

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    Have you felt like Intel did not give a damn about the enthusiasts PC users for the last five or six years? From lagging IPC to toothpaste TIMs, I think we are seeing a lot expressed here in a single photograph from its 50th anniversary party that is happening as I type this. Given this, should we truly expect Intel to take Raja's talents and bring GPUs racing back into a real desktop gaming environment? I honestly do not know the answer to that, but this picture certainly gives me pause to think that is going to happen. I very much hope I am fully off base.

    Picture here.
     
  2. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    Its ok. I will oblige Intel by building my next desktop with an AMD CPU. And to help further show my gratitude, I will make my next server an AMD product also.

    Yea, I don't see any of those new Intel video cards have any form of display built in.
     
  3. Lakados

    Lakados Gawd

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    Just signed off on a pair of servers running Epyc 7551p's.

    But following the money Intel isn't exactly wrong on this one.
     
  4. diehardman

    diehardman n00bie

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    Y'all really gonna catch feels from hearing the truth?
     
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  5. LightsOut41

    LightsOut41 Limp Gawd

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    I did just that last month. First AMD based desktop for me since 2006.
     
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  6. MickeyBailey

    MickeyBailey [H]Lite

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    PC’s are a shrinking market, that’s the unfortunate truth. Data is the new oil, so we can only hope innovation in that space trickles down to us. Similarly, with Intel GPU’s, AI will drive innovation in that space, hopefully it also results in advancements in consumer products.
     
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  7. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    A shrinking market is not the same thing as a small or non existent market. Guess this is one way to help AMD make a consistent comeback. :)
     
  8. hesho

    hesho Limp Gawd

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    kyle..

    why would you posted a pic of a middle finger at pc users?

    in all seriousness though.. that is what it seems like to me anyway.
     
  9. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You mean because he does not bow at the Intel throne, or any hardware throne for that matter?
     
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  10. d8lock

    d8lock Limp Gawd

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    He bows before the porcelain throne!
     
  11. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well with people going from digital to vinyl why not go from gaming on a pc to a tablet. :p
     
  12. EBound

    EBound n00bie

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    I think you've misinterpreted the graph into some distorted view. The plot is the reality. PCs have stagnated (the data is there) and or declined. Meanwhile data centric businesses have thrived and continue to grow.

    Pursuing other markets for growth does not reflect "How Intel Feels about PC Users"
     
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  13. lostin3d

    lostin3d [H]ard|Gawd

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    Their direction does has logic even if I don't like it. All big players are pushing towards cloud services. Intel will reap big checks from them and they in turn from us. Along the way local options(us) will dissipate and only minimalist arm type devices needed for access will be needed.

    Won't support it. Don't like it. I'll be going AMD when I need my next upgrade. Ryzen is awesome and TR looks good too. Either will suffice my needs for another decade. I love my 2600k and 4930k but frankly nothing that Intel has offered since is worth it. As soon as AMD makes a 1080TI equal or better I'm done with NV too.

    edit: And BTW, you d@mn kids get off my VR lawn!
     
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  14. Nobu

    Nobu [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm not sure what to think about that graph, honestly. So, the yellow part of the line is simply the red and green lines combined. Therefore the graph shows something diverging at 2013. PC centric is bottom left, where they are still together, and Data centric is top-right, where only the green line goes. There is nothing in the bottom right corner, so I can't really associate the individual lines with data/pc centric–more likely before 2013 is pc-centric and after is data. But then I don't know what they represent...Intel/AMD? The colors are wrong. I think we're missing some important context...although clearly the message is the future is data-centric.
     
  15. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    No, Intel stopped innovating in the consumer desktop market and PC users are smart enough to know that everything was essentially a rehash of the same design since the i5-2500K series. PC sales stagnated because there was literally zero reasons to upgrade the CPU. Meanwhile Nvidia and AMD gave us reasons to upgrade graphics cards and that market flourished. Now that AMD has a new design out that has reinvigorated the consumer market; guess what?

    PC Shipments Grew for the First Time in Six Years

    Now do you think it is a coincidence that the PC market grew for the first time in 6 years because consumers suddenly felt sorry for Intel and AMD or do you think it was because one of the companies finally put out new products that gave PC Gamers a reason to 6 year old upgrade machines?
     
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  16. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    There's not a lot of context to this slide.

    Intel doesn't have to be totally focused on PC users to run their business and if you look at Intel's server business it's always been pretty huge. The internet is still growing and so has their business.

    Clearly, they haven't had to be super competitive against other market players. Ever. So they have those people in those positions with that mindset, still, I would assume. "the good ol' boys club" or whatever.

    AMD is still not the best choice you can make. And other's can disagree. That's fine but I'm not a fan of brands. Never have been. I'm in it to win it. That means I'm ok with spending a bit more for Intel and nVidia or Samsung for storage.

    I like my pile of little milliseconds and seconds. They add up. Even if I pay dearly for them.

    But I am super excited that AMD is actually doing something. When I was younger and my disposable income wasn't all that great, AMD saved my ass and I loved them for it. Secretly, I love underdogs ( AMD ) ... I really hope that AMD can get true equal performance on the desktop and multi-core CPU to Intel. Sorry, close doesn't work for me. But once AMD is truly really beating Intel in single core performance ... trust me, I will be first in line.
     
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  17. TheHig

    TheHig Limp Gawd

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    Big Data is big money for sure. Intel will likely make GPUs for compute and maybe even machine learning before gaming.

    I started building AMD back in the day and after surfing Haswell to ride out the Bulldozer/Veshera mediocrity I’m happily back on AMD with Ryzen+.

    With to rise of esports and the multi billion dollar per year gaming industriy as a whole maybe PCs have some growth opportunities after stagnating for a bit. Diy computing has been driven by gaming since forever. Sure HEDT is not to be left out but many more people build for entertainment than work.
     
  18. _l_

    _l_ [H]ard|Gawd

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    maybe one, the other or both but... I think it improved because the economy is improving since the crash of 2008
     
  19. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    For many users, that's all they need. Checking email, kids writing homework papers, people posting stuff on Facebook, etc.

    I've taken 8 year old laptops, put a fresh Windows 10 install (when they had the free upgrade), and people have been happy with them.

    But, if you are running photoshop, editing video, playing 3d games, collecting movies or any other cpu/video/storage intensive application, you need a decent PC.

    Some of the non-technical employees at work don't even know how to download or save a picture from their iPhone.
    When they start running out of room, they go through and delete some of the older pictures.
    If something happens to their phone, they loose their pictures.
    Not much different from the people who would fill up a memory card on their camera and then go and buy another card.

    All the pictures/videos I've take over the years are on my PC, and get backed up to a couple different external drives.
    I even went through several years ago and digitized all my film pictures from years before. (Now I just need to convert all the old videos from my video camera) :nailbiting:
    Even when I'm on vacation, I'll pull the memory card from the camera every couple days and backup all the photos to my laptop.
    If something happens to the camera, at least I won't loose all my pictures.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  20. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    Opens up ultrabook, sees 4.0GHz quad-core, nope, no innovation here...

    ;)
     
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  21. EODetroit

    EODetroit [H]ard|Gawd

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    Intel had two reasons to not pursue IPC and good gaming CPUs: Pressure to develop competitive mobile CPUs, and AMD being absolutely craptastic in the desktop and server CPU space.
     
  22. BloodyIron

    BloodyIron 2[H]4U

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    Intel is banned from my infrastructure until they fucking drop the Intel ME as a requirement. I'm not okay with force fed backdoors.
     
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  23. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

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    Intel isn't making GPU's for enthusiasts as much as AMD and Nvidia is. They only cater to us cause we have the biggest mouths that spread hardware info like a gospel, plus they make a good chunk of change from us. The real reason Intel is making GPU's is cause they see how Nvidia is infiltrating the server market, plus AMD does have an edge in the laptop market now with Ryzen+Vega. For Intel the server and laptop markets make up the majority of their profits, and the only way to hold onto these markets is to actually have a good GPU.

    I personally welcome the competition, even if Intel isn't looking out for our best interests. Its bad enough we only have two choices for CPU's and GPU's, so do we need to shun a 3rd competitor? I'd even like to see Nvidia make x86 CPUs just to give more pressure for lower prices and faster products.
     
  24. Balkroth

    Balkroth Limp Gawd

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    Not surprising, Nvidia expects their compute revenue to be higher than their graphics revenue bt 2021 ( if I remember the slides correctly, but early 202x none the less). Intel is trying to spur interest by talking about graphics cards, but that will just be as a by product of advancing compute
     
  25. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    The idea isn't to bankrupt them and force them out of the market, it is to get them to wake up and right the ship. You do that by voting with your wallet which has been said ad nauseum.
     
  26. nightfly

    nightfly 2[H]4U

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    I'm always amazed at how many people think that corporations give a damn about it's consumers. We are numbers of sales to them. That's all. Commercials that imply otherwise, are simply fooling the foolish. Like health insurance companies that tell you they care about your health, or whatever advertisement that tells you they want to give you a great deal for your money, it's all bullshit. The only thing they care about, is if you have enough money to buy whatever they're selling. And if they find another market which will pay them more? Bye bye. They will find some way to no longer put any money towards supporting whatever they sold you. Unless, of course, you give them more money (see: Microsoft supporting XP for the military and other gov't entities).
     
  27. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    So you're going to stop using computers?
     
  28. Arioch

    Arioch Limp Gawd

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    I'm really tired of both Intel and Nvidia's BS lately. :mad:
     
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  29. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    Kinda just seems like facts...Desktop focus is generally declining on the industry, at least as far as innovation goes, it seems. Hard pill to swallow for [H] users, but we don't represent the industry as a whole.

    Why is AMD now focusing on mega amounts of cores? It's not because of desktop users...
     
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  30. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's easy to add in gaming bit and pieces to GPU's. Maybe not world class like nVidia but they can just as easily make a gaming CPU when they design then for A.I. and compute
     
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  31. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    From the article you linked:

    So nothing to do with gamers or enthusiasts.
     
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  32. dexvx

    dexvx Gawd

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    Having seen some of the stuff Intel desktop marketing says, I feel they are about 99% out of touch with the current PC community. Frankly, I doubt any of them even have a PCMR grade desktop at home.

    The ridiculous 5GHz 28-core Skylake-X demo was beyond cringeworthy.
     
  33. Nauseous

    Nauseous Gawd

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    they just doing what every company is doing, following the money train.
     
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  34. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    We all knew this was coming. However, this "declining" business is for general desktop usage as it relates to email, web, video, music, social media, etc. The simple reason is, the cell phone can do all of that better.

    Gaming PC sector has had record growth for years. But compared to desktop, it's not nearly as big. When you have 100's of companies releasing new mice, keyboards, cases, etc in the dozens on a weekly basis you know you're good when it comes to being a PC Gamer.

    The Treadripper is just free bleed-off from the server market efforts. It's basically just a re-config / rebranding for AMD and motherboard makers. It's also free marketing for AMD as it really gets the attention of PC Gamers. But I'm almost positive that AMD sells 4 and 6 core cpu's 1000 to 1 over threadripper. Threadripper is basically a business card for AMD.
     
  35. dexvx

    dexvx Gawd

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    PC market is still more than the Enterprise market, revenue wise. Profit wise its not as good on paper, but the PC market absorbs a lot of the R&D costs for Enterprise due to its scale. You don't go around neglecting a multi-billion dollar business just because volume is shrinking. Revenue decline isn't that bad, as CPU ASP's have been steadily increasing. Remember tablets? Yea everyone thought they were the hot sh1t, until they weren't.

    AMD is focusing on core count because its not about what customers *need*, its about driving what customers *want*. You think customers really need 10 cores on a phone? It's to drive some excitement at the hardware level. Or in Apple's case, you drive product excitement with aesthetics and affluence.
     
  36. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Still have China which doesn't allow consoles. Studies never take them into account as shown by the surprise of adding them to the Steam numbers. There is a reason why AMD licensed CPU tech to China and I doubt it is strictly for the datacenter. It could be said that console gaming is dying as Ubisoft exceeded estimated profits today and PC sales surpassed Xbox One sales. Not only that but PS4 sales percentage fell 6% from 44% to 38%.

    1531934378f2nm36dh25_1_1_l.png

    Going by that gaming in general is dying since as you implied PC gaming is dying. But you know how that goes... It's all in how you read the tea leaves.

    As PC sales shrink, the gaming PC market grows faster than expected.
    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...-gaming-pc-market-grows-faster-than-expected/

    So how do these companies selling PC games keep announcing record profits, but PC gaming is dying? Does it make sense that as less people play PC games and switch to mobile; that the few poor souls still PC gaming are propping up the market by buying even more PC games? How is Steam talking about increasing their number of consumers?

    steamvalve_0185-630x420.jpg

    How does Steam grow by 1.5 million new buying customers every month and PC hardware sales are drying up? What are they playing on? Air?

    Look at these newer numbers. Tell me how PC Gamers are a dying breed of people who hangout on a few forums? Tencent is launching their own Steam competitor soon. Why would they do that if PC gaming is dying?


    currencies steam.jpg
    Language steam.jpg

    Steam concurrrent.jpg




    Intel knows better. They just figured out that it is easier to sell hardware to bean counters in a datacenter than PC gamers that read reviews to see what they are actually getting. Plus they are banned by the US government from selling Xeon in China so I think they try not to pay attention to what they can't support.
     
  37. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    There is a lot of BS when it comes to these numbers. You have a lot of special interest groups pushing one way. You have inherit bias, flaws, etc. There's a lot of "educated" guessing and incomplete data being collected and presented.
     
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  38. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Tell Valve to stop making presentation slides then?
     
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  39. dexvx

    dexvx Gawd

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    Most of the recent growth has been China. So whenever the Chinese gov doesn't get an appropriate cut (or if they want to boost a domestic rival), they can shut down Steam at will.

    Edit: Steamcommunity is currently blocked in China, so basically all Steam hosted mods are blocked.

    To get a more accurate picture, you need to have MoM results for at least the last 5 years. In case you missed it, the whole point of marketing slides is to paint a picture better than what's actually going on.

    China does allow consoles. My hotel in Shanghai is next to an electronics mall. The entire 4th floor is consoles (Xbox, PS4, Nintendo). They are not very popular because you can't pirate games and they are expensive. Not enough console exclusives to warrant purchasing a console over a PC that is more general purpose. So only in affluent cities (Shanghai/Beijing), do they actually have any marketing presence.

    No on knows the specifics of what AMD did (most likely just providing a mask), but the obvious reason is for money. Intel doesn't need the money bad enough to give away a Xeon mask. Furthermore, Intel owns its fabs (AMD does not anymore), so by licensing the mask, it loses margins (just due to scale) on the fab business as well.
     
  40. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Their government had strictly banned them for years from what I understand. Seems that they lifted the ban on consoles in 2015. So the Chinese consumers are PC and mobile gamers in general. Also I would assume it is very hard to pirate online only games like PUBG.
     
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