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DOTA 2

Casus said:
I think it's stupid that I have to either

A: Dedicate insane amounts of time to perfectly memorize each and every skill of every hero in order to be effective

B: Blindly guess if something is in range or not.

There's no good justification for why I can't have a UI indicator on my skill shots. It doesn't negate anybody's ability to dodge it (the only thing that matters) but it does put everybody on a level playing field for knowing what their characters are capable of.

Dota's "Design" also happens to be a lot of engine limitations and bugs from being a custom map on the WC3 engine.

It's like arguing the entire game is going to sink into a shit hole of perpetual newbdom because I suddenly always know how far my pudge hook is going to go. The player should know whether or not a skill shot can be made without guessing.

A player should be rewarded with making excellent skill shots and having a strong game sense. Not for having more time than anybody else to play and memorize.

It'd be like hiding the shot clock in basketball or the play clock in football from the players. It rewards those with more memorization time/space awareness, right?

I found camera lock extraordinarily useful during team fights in LoL. Other than that I had it off. But a lot of times with so much shit going on I may pan off screen and be left scrambling in the big cluster fucks.

Where is it in Dota 2? Couldn't find a bind for it.
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you are listing the very thing that makes dota 2 so challenging. knowledge.. knowledge and skill are the two most fundamental things in the game.


knowing what every hero is capable of is rough especially when i introduce new players. but honestly it doesnt take long before you realize whats going on. dont play modes like all pick its garbage.

single draft, capts mode, random are good ways to learn all the characters without getting stomped
 
Again, I personally like range indicators. But Dota is a game of skill, first and foremost, and it's hard to tell somebody who is skilled at judging the range on Pudge's hook that they shouldn't have an advantage there over a first-time Pudge. (I mean, obviously they are more likely to time it right, but there is more than just that. Positioning is key).

It's also hard to say that the opponent should have to memorize the range on Pudge's hook in order to stay safe, but Pudge doesn't have to memorize the range in order to engage. That says that in order for there to be a level playing field of us both understanding what your range of engagement is, I have to know your hero much better than you need to know your hero.

Obviously my argument has holes. Why doesn't Lina/Leshrac's stun target a point on the ground instead of it showing the AOE like it does right now? I should be rewarded for knowing the radius of the stun, over a newb who doesn't know the radius. YA GOT ME! It is really all just about where Icefrog wants to draw the line of skill/knowledge vs. convenience and ease of use. I rather like the current balance, but Riot has a vastly different idea of where that line should be and it's hard to argue that they aren't successful.
 
dremic said:
you are listing the very thing that makes dota 2 so challenging. knowledge.. knowledge and skill are the two most fundamental things in the game.


knowing what every hero is capable of is rough especially when i introduce new players. but honestly it doesnt take long before you realize whats going on. dont play modes like all pick its garbage.

single draft, capts mode, random are good ways to learn all the characters without getting stomped
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Right now all I do is single/random draft. Don't wanna bog down a capts mode because I just don't know enough.

I don't mind bearing a burden of knowledge of what every hero can do.

I DO mine not knowing how far my hook goes. That's that whole fake difficulty thing that gets thrown around a lot these days.

Anyways, after ranting I Googled, and so I guess I'll just put range indicators in, ANYWAY since they are there to use, but hidden to the user, gg Valve :rolleyes:
 
Casus said:
Right now all I do is single/random draft. Don't wanna bog down a capts mode because I just don't know enough.

I don't mind bearing a burden of knowledge of what every hero can do.

I DO mine not knowing how far my hook goes. That's that whole fake difficulty thing that gets thrown around a lot these days.

Anyways, after ranting I Googled, and so I guess I'll just put range indicators in, ANYWAY since they are there to use, but hidden to the user, gg Valve :rolleyes:
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by default you can see the range of your abilities by hovering your mouse over the ability as well. Hon had custom UI options though and range displays were nice
 
I still play a few rounds a day. And I probably will for the foreseeable future. Even though I rage every time I lose :(

Also, Drow is easily bottom-quarter of the hero pool in terms of power. Maybe bottom 5. I'm trying really hard to think of more than 1 worse hero (alchemist lol). #justsaying

Of course, if you get good with drow you can easily stomp pubs :D
 
Anyone on here play DOTA 2 frequently? I'd love to find someone to play with so I can avoid the ignorant people in pubs games and enjoy the game while I learn. My Steam name is Virai.
 
Steam name is FecalFighter... feel free to add me.

I am coming over from dota so I am still learning which items and heros match up to the HoN names.

The biggest grip I have is people who do not know how to pick a decent lineup. They always seem to handicap the team from the start.
 
I was going to add you two but I'd be one of those peeps who does not know how to pick a decent line up :(
 
300+ wins here, not to say i'm a pro, but i have a fine understanding of the game after playing enogh games, looking for more veterans or even somewhat newcomers who are willing to start by learning support rather then hard carry, this works better because the team isn't really heavily dependent on your fighting performance, and it helps you learn the map since you'd be doing warding, de-warding, denies rather than last hits and so forth.

steam email = nykeiscool@gmail.com steam id= Albert Wesker
 
Completely ignoring your ability to pick a lineup, this is another one of those issues with Dota (&clones). In an FPS game, I can join my buddy who I have no clue how good he is, and we can have fun together on a server. It doesn't really matter if he is better, or I am. Even if it is some random guy I met on [H], and he is epic good and I suck, we can have fun playing together in most games. Not in Dota.

In Dota, if I party up with somebody I've never played with before, I'm committing a pretty substantial portion of time to play a game with somebody who could be entirely on a different level from me (better or worse, doesn't matter) and all of a sudden one of us is getting screwed. Having a noob on your team in BF3 is unfortunate and all, but does it really matter? nope. Having a noob/low skill player on your team in Dota is often GG, only you have to hang out for an hour waiting to lose. Not to mention, without a semi-transparent skill rating visible, it isn't really possible to know when somebody says "I'll add you on steam" if it is even worth your time playing with them. And don't forget, half the time it is you feeding in his skill bracket, not the other way around.

Basically, I gave up offering to play with people from online forums/reddit/etc due to the insane disparity in skill levels across the community. If I meet you in game, and you are decent (as well as a decent human being), then I'll happily add and play with you. Beyond that, I pretty much only play with people I know (or solo queue... :/).

Aaaaand on the topic of decent lineups: If you are NOT playing captains mode, then any lineup with 3+ ranged (or a decent melee mid + 2 ranged for your lanes), at least 1 support and 1 decent initiator should get you into the "very high skill" bracket in dota 2. As a rule of thumb, pick more stuns than you are right now. There are lots of good counterpicks etc, but if your team has 4+ passable stuns, you almost can't lose teamfights in pubs. Besides, most people going into a pub game already have their hero pick thought out, and it is rarely the heroes that really make a team work: Tide, CM, Witch Doctor, Shadow Demon etc. Pubs are like that, which I suppose is why people are so interested in grouping up.
 
masturshake said:
300+ wins here, not to say i'm a pro, but i have a fine understanding of the game after playing enogh games, looking for more veterans or even somewhat newcomers who are willing to start by learning support rather then hard carry, this works better because the team isn't really heavily dependent on your fighting performance, and it helps you learn the map since you'd be doing warding, de-warding, denies rather than last hits and so forth.

steam email = nykeiscool@gmail.com steam id= Albert Wesker
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whats your average gpm as a carry?
 
aintz said:
whats your average gpm as a carry?
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I was gonna complain that Valve doesn't track that stuff for you, but I guess you could check via dotabuff.com? Haven't really played with the site much.

Another quick complaint about using average GPM is that longer games naturally have substantially higher GPM's due to the sheer volume of creeps that spawn, plus the speed of farming at higher levels and/or with better items. So the guy who pushes and wins at 30 mins will have substantially lower GPM than the guy who rices another 10 before ending it.
 
Hmmm, mucked around with Dota2Buff.com some. It doesn't tell you average GPM at all, not even with a given hero as far as I can tell. It is pretty interesting though. 56% win rate yay :p

If you look me up, don't judge me on heroes lol. I got stuck on bounty hunter doing the "a to z challenge". Lost... 11 games in a row I think? And I haven't played ursa in months.
 
Sn0_Man said:
Hmmm, mucked around with Dota2Buff.com some. It doesn't tell you average GPM at all, not even with a given hero as far as I can tell. It is pretty interesting though. 56% win rate yay :p

If you look me up, don't judge me on heroes lol. I got stuck on bounty hunter doing the "a to z challenge". Lost... 11 games in a row I think? And I haven't played ursa in months.
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its all good dude. honestly its hard to take those stats seriously because theyre all pugs. look at mine for instance.. its not really an assessment of how good you are tbh. they need a rating system or i need to stop playing with randoms


https://dotabuff.com/players/30136307
 
I heard a lot of good things about this game, but apparently they were all not true...

Things mainly related to momentum, or having less of it (like harder towers, no momentum from leveling up, possible negative momentum if you die)... i don't remember where i heard these things, but from watching gameplay it doesn't seem to be the case.

Is this game just as momentum-based as LoL? (I was really hoping it wouldn't be)
 
chockomonkey said:
I heard a lot of good things about this game, but apparently they were all not true...

Things mainly related to momentum, or having less of it (like harder towers, no momentum from leveling up, possible negative momentum if you die)... i don't remember where i heard these things, but from watching gameplay it doesn't seem to be the case.

Is this game just as momentum-based as LoL? (I was really hoping it wouldn't be)
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LoL is its own game and its mechanics are terrible from what i have seen the balance is whacky. idk anything about momentum in that game or how it works.


dota has a very balanced formula and that is why it is so widely played and so popular. momentum swings heavily as the game changes stages from early/mid/late and as carries grow in power and team fights become more common. dying is much worse in dota then it is in LoL from what i can tell
 
dremic said:
LoL is its own game and its mechanics are terrible from what i have seen the balance is whacky. idk anything about momentum in that game or how it works.


dota has a very balanced formula and that is why it is so widely played and so popular. momentum swings heavily as the game changes stages from early/mid/late and as carries grow in power and team fights become more common. dying is much worse in dota then it is in LoL from what i can tell
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Hmm thanks. Disappointing to hear. Can't stand momentum (which is why i hate lol--if you fuck up in the beginning and give the enemy's carry a few kills, you might as well alt+f4 right then and there), i like my pvp being fair. I'd hoped DOTA2 would be my new fair pvp game BAH! Maybe GW2 is trying to be more balanced?
 
chockomonkey said:
Hmm thanks. Disappointing to hear. Can't stand momentum (which is why i hate lol--if you fuck up in the beginning and give the enemy's carry a few kills, you might as well alt+f4 right then and there), i like my pvp being fair. I'd hoped DOTA2 would be my new fair pvp game BAH! Maybe GW2 is trying to be more balanced?
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it is fair pvp.. :) if they kill you a few times in the beginning that is gonna make things harder for you. BUT the thing about dota is it is all about EPIC turn arounds. I cant tell you how many games ive lost because i couldnt get my bad team mates to push when we are destroying them early/mid game and their carry catches up and takes over. nothing is more fair then dota though its been a balanced game since icefrog took over dota1 years and years and years ago.

GW2 is pretty balanced because everybody is lvl 80 that helps... but unfortunately melee is getting the short end of the stick as of right now
 
Quick stats: In pro LoL, if you are ahead 10% in gold at 12 minutes in, you are over 90% to win that game. In pro dota, its 75%, which is if you think about it a really good number. Rewarding to the team that is playing better, but still a fighting chance to come back for the other team.

Other things: Towers in LoL hit much harder than in Dota. That means that the game is very safe and passive, since standing by a tower makes you nigh untouchable for a fair while. In Dota, ganking lineups have the option of tower-diving from level one, assuming they have a strong advantage and handle the tower aggro properly. Towers still offer a safe zone early, but its not invincibility. This opens up a LOT more options in how the early game plays out.

Scaling in LoL is also different. While there are definitely "support" and "carry" champs, every champ in LoL strengthens linearly with farm. In dota, many early game heroes increase exponentially upon acquiring certain items, and then begin diminishing returns after that. Earthshaker's core items cost 3650g (or less if no mana boots). After hitting that level of farm, giving him an additional 5000g or more is only going to increase his effectiveness maybe 10-20%. However, that first 3650g is SO much more efficient than the same gold on, say, a carry. It is actually fascinating how heroes scale in dota.

All that being said, pub games are still pub games. Getting ahead early is important sure, but just having and executing a strategy will win you most of your games. You will still get assholes on your team, and brazillians, and noobs. The game can certainly be frustrating, but it is much deeper and more balanced compared to League.

BTW losing gold on death actually reduces the "momentum" factor. It sounds strange but hear me out. If you lose your lanes or get outfarmed early, ganking or forcing teamfights that favour you not only gets you gold from the kills, it also undoes some of their farm that they have. While you can still outfarm a ganking team and make them pay for grouping up etc, this gives ganking enough incentive that you at least have choices on how you build your team.
 
chockomonkey said:
Hmm thanks. Disappointing to hear. Can't stand momentum (which is why i hate lol--if you fuck up in the beginning and give the enemy's carry a few kills, you might as well alt+f4 right then and there), i like my pvp being fair. I'd hoped DOTA2 would be my new fair pvp game BAH! Maybe GW2 is trying to be more balanced?
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Not true at all, it is possible to come back from a serious deficit if the team compositions favor it, plus it is possible to get back into contention after a key team fight. Hell, in a recent game the score was 69-35 in their favor, and we WON through sheer push. Unusual situation, but far from the only turnaround I've seen in DOTA.

As Sno Man said above, the odds of turning around an early lead in DOTA is much more possible, despite the fact that it is a harder game. The opposite also needs to be considered, it is more possible to throw away a lead as well. I've been on both sides of that scenario, and throwing away a big lead is that made me feel better than I did in LoL about hanging in there. Team compositions can actually mean more than gold/XP differences, and it is where many games are lost.

More reasons why DOTA 2 is so much better than LoL. :)
 
Dota 2 is the most balanced game I have ever played in the thousands of hours of gaming I have done in my life. This game is just perfect in every single way.
 
I wouldn't call Dota2 "perfectly balanced" but I would call it brilliantly executed and simply the most fun I can have on a computer. It has depth, near-infinite replayability, and is just ridiculously rewarding. The balance really is exceptional, but it isn't perfect.

There are of course issues as well. There is a huge "burden of knowledge" that exists, and makes the game difficult to jump into. It requires a semi-large time investment every time you want to play (if you don't have at least a free hour, it is pretty unwise to find a game). It is frustrating playing the game by yourself because you and your teammates will never see eye to eye. To be clear, if you solo-queue there WILL be games where you and your teammates hate each other. Passionately. Even playing with people I know, I am prone to getting very mad at them.

None of that can detract from how fun the game is for me.
 
Sn0_Man said:
I wouldn't call Dota2 "perfectly balanced" but I would call it brilliantly executed and simply the most fun I can have on a computer. It has depth, near-infinite replayability, and is just ridiculously rewarding. The balance really is exceptional, but it isn't perfect.

There are of course issues as well. There is a huge "burden of knowledge" that exists, and makes the game difficult to jump into. It requires a semi-large time investment every time you want to play (if you don't have at least a free hour, it is pretty unwise to find a game). It is frustrating playing the game by yourself because you and your teammates will never see eye to eye. To be clear, if you solo-queue there WILL be games where you and your teammates hate each other. Passionately. Even playing with people I know, I am prone to getting very mad at them.

None of that can detract from how fun the game is for me.
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I would, and I did. The only advantage other players have are their own skills and knowledge. After 600+ hours of this game since I started a few months ago no pvp has ever been so rewarding and fairly set up.
 
The one thing I think does this game justice is the fact that right now they do not track and publicly display KDR.

In HoN if you fall behind people become passive or even just AFK at fountain.. Why? Because they do not want to take the deaths that will result in trying to turn the game around. No one wants to play a support type hero either because though it helps you earn the W (which should be the only thing that matters). Bad games stick with you forever (unless you cough up $20 for a reset). Right now in DotA they don't matter at all, only the W.

When I play dota it seems that my team will at least try until the end (no concede option helps this too maybe).

I still play a lot of HoN because I haven't learnt all the heroes and items in DotA 2, but I am definitaly starting to play more DotA.

PS. I can babysit a carry and support like a HoSS if anyone wants to play and can just help me match up the heroes with their HoN variants we can team up.

I like to play a carry sometimes but it is frustrating in pubs when it is tough to farm.
 
Only thing that bothers me with Dota 2 is the amount of eye candy and the objects on the screen are way too big. I find myself wanting to zoom out a little more. Hard for me to manage the game feeling too zoomed in.

The gui is too big and too much on it. Wish there was a smaller more stripped down look.
 
The discussion on Dota2 stat-tracking and concede is endless. I tend to fall on the "at least add concede" side. Some games, well you should not have to play them.

Anyway, I made a big post about not playing with people you meet on the internet last page. The gist of it is, people who complain about pubs (aka everbody) are not any better than said pubs. If they were, they would win games, move up in matchmaking, and play with better players naturally. I will say that exhibiting "common" decency is decidely uncommon in this game and probably gives you a free ~5% extra win rate.

All that said, I always break my rule. Feel free to add me on Steam (Sn0_Man) and I'll help you transition to Dota. The list of BS heroes is much, much shorter in this game.

Edit: didn't see the post above me until this. Here is a quick response:

I believe Dota2 is actually zoomed out (minorly) compared to Dota 1 and HoN. What game are you coming from?

Some parts of the gui are annoying though. The hero bar at the top of the screen blocks my clicks all the time which can be really frustrating (mainly a problem when I'm dire in top lane, so my screen is positioned with my hero at the top for maximum lane vision, but moving around I tend to hit the hero bar instead of the screen :()
 
I just don't understand why they have so much momentum in these games... if they're after balance, giving momentum to the winning team is stupid, like WoW arena. The people at the top get the best gear, so they can stay on top?

If anything, they should get a TINY bit of momentum, so that the game is still somewhat fair.

IMO the advantage to killing someone should be soley that they are now dead for X seconds, so that you can push their lanes. That alone gives you XP and gold from minions. No reason to add more momentum on top of that = /
 
chockomonkey said:
I just don't understand why they have so much momentum in these games... if they're after balance, giving momentum to the winning team is stupid, like WoW arena. The people at the top get the best gear, so they can stay on top?

If anything, they should get a TINY bit of momentum, so that the game is still somewhat fair.

IMO the advantage to killing someone should be soley that they are now dead for X seconds, so that you can push their lanes. That alone gives you XP and gold from minions. No reason to add more momentum on top of that = /
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Ummmm so you are saying it is imbalanced for people who are doing better to be rewarded for that? I should be allowed to sleep all game and then show up at the end and have a fair chance? Why even have an early game then? I know, let everybody start with 220,000 gold and see who wins!

Wait a second...

You see, what you are describing is actually MORE momentum and inevitability based. If I get a tiny advantage somewhere, you can NEVER stop me because killing me does NOTHING. So I just slowly over the course of the game get more and more ahead, and nothing you can do can stop me. Only now it takes like 90 minutes because me killing you doesn't give me any advantage either, so I need to farm for-fucking-ever to end the game. That is already the direction league is going, and that is why league is 90% to win with any gold advantage at all, while Dota gives you excellent comeback potential. If I fall behind, I can do stuff to get back in it.

In Dota, there is a balance between farming, ganking and pushing. They have their rewards and their costs. What you are describing basically rewards only farming. Forever. Anything else would be utterly pointless. The only heroes/champs picked would be the ones that could do the most at MAX level with MAX items. Nothing else would matter, because you can never stop the players from reaching that.
 
Sorry for double post but now I have more to say.

For one thing, every game of Dota 2 starts COMPLETELY fresh, so it isn't like wow arena which people start with their items then fight. And it doesn't have shitty masteries or whatever LoL has that gives advantages to people with more games played.

For another thing, and I already tried to explain this previously, but many heroes simply get stronger and stronger as the game progresses but start out weak. There has to be some kind of advantage to picking heroes that start strong and end weak, or else you couldn't have the hero diversity etc.

To be honest, I think the real complaint here is that people without a lot of experience with these games get behind early (naturally, since they don't really know what to do) and then feel like they can never come back because the other guys are ahead. And it is true, they can't come back, but the reason for that is a) they played poorly and b) they didn't do the right things to come back. Also their team composition was probably wrong for a comeback as well, but that isn't really the important part.

The redeeming factor, then, is that when you start a new game of Dota, you start COMPLETELY from scratch and have a completely even chance to win.
 
I enjoy reading the thoughts on this stuff from someone with more experience in DOTA than I... I've only ever played LoL.

I get what you're saying, and i suppose i am that noob a lot of the time that just feels helpless because the enemy has momentum and they're just getting more, while i can't do a damn thing to get any momentum for myself. I guess DOTA2 does have the redeeming fact that if you die you can lose gold. That does create possible comebacks.
 
It isn't like there aren't flaws in Dota's system, nothing is perfect. Stomps in Dota are much, much more lopsided than stomps in LoL. The reasons for that, however, are many of the things I've outlined above. There are just so many skill differentiators in Dota, and so for every thing that YOU could do to catch up, they have a thing that THEY can do to counter you and get more ahead. Dota *always* rewards the better, smarter play. However, a lot of these skill differentiators are unintuitive, (see: denying). These kind of things open doors for decent players to come back from deficits, but they also open doors for better players to absolute CRUSH others, in ways that are painful to be on the receiving end of.

After all, Dota 2 is about so much more than just mechanics (last hitting, denying, hitting ground-targeted abilities etc.). It is about picking intelligent lineups, that not only have a cohesive theme or goal, but also that interact favourably with the opposing heroes. It is about choosing when to roam out of the lane, and when to stay in lane to support your teammate. It is about choosing when to farm, and when to push, and when to gank. When to start a fight, and who to focus first, and when to leave your ally to death. Every single one of those decisions is pretty complicated, and they can each win or lose a game. And 5 people are constantly making those decisions on your team. The way the game plays out is incredibly complex and that is why so many people become completely addicted to it.

Games like league purposefully remove a ton of the skill differentiators to make it easier for new players to get into. Even when you lose in league, it often feels like less of a stomp (especially for newer players). The depressing part of that is, the game could have been decided 20 minutes ago, but you still don't feel like you got stomped. I suppose that is a good thing, but the volatility of Dota 2 is what makes it attractive for me. You simply don't get that in league.
 
Sn0_Man said:
It isn't like there aren't flaws in Dota's system, nothing is perfect. Stomps in Dota are much, much more lopsided than stomps in LoL. The reasons for that, however, are many of the things I've outlined above. There are just so many skill differentiators in Dota, and so for every thing that YOU could do to catch up, they have a thing that THEY can do to counter you and get more ahead. Dota *always* rewards the better, smarter play. However, a lot of these skill differentiators are unintuitive, (see: denying). These kind of things open doors for decent players to come back from deficits, but they also open doors for better players to absolute CRUSH others, in ways that are painful to be on the receiving end of.

After all, Dota 2 is about so much more than just mechanics (last hitting, denying, hitting ground-targeted abilities etc.). It is about picking intelligent lineups, that not only have a cohesive theme or goal, but also that interact favourably with the opposing heroes. It is about choosing when to roam out of the lane, and when to stay in lane to support your teammate. It is about choosing when to farm, and when to push, and when to gank. When to start a fight, and who to focus first, and when to leave your ally to death. Every single one of those decisions is pretty complicated, and they can each win or lose a game. And 5 people are constantly making those decisions on your team. The way the game plays out is incredibly complex and that is why so many people become completely addicted to it.

Games like league purposefully remove a ton of the skill differentiators to make it easier for new players to get into. Even when you lose in league, it often feels like less of a stomp (especially for newer players). The depressing part of that is, the game could have been decided 20 minutes ago, but you still don't feel like you got stomped. I suppose that is a good thing, but the volatility of Dota 2 is what makes it attractive for me. You simply don't get that in league.
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this lays it out pretty well and if its TL: DR

LoL is fun for most people due to its low skill ceiling and light hearted gameplay


dota 2 is for the hardcore, it has a high skill ceiling and requires learning, practice and experience.


my advice if youre gonna play dota 2 and youre new.. dont play All Pick. Random & Single draft. Its the best way to learn all the heroes in the game and what they are capable of
 
New people should play bots. When you can easily beat bots, you are ready to enter the jungle!
 
Is it sad that I think it is safe to assume this game is going to suck because of how much HoN and LoL players like it?

Considering just how shitty of an attitude most players have in those two games, I am willing to bet that DOTA 2 is going to end up like L4D2 multiplayer.
 
darkstarcow said:
I am willing to bet that DOTA 2 is going to end up like L4D2 multiplayer.
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So, only good with friends? pretty much :D

Actually, I do a lot of solo-queue but I understand the complaint. Valve gets it too, and they are putting a lot of effort into Positive-Feedback systems that reward decent (in terms of nice, not skill) people. To be clear, not much has actually been implemented beyond a "commend" and "report" system, but valve has talked about dealing with this issue a lot of times so expectations are high. Plus even just the commend system is more than any comparable game.

Plus, IMO the community is substantially better than HoN at the level that I play at. That part is important because most of my teammates and opponents are experienced and actually understand when they make mistakes. As far as I can tell, scrub-tier noobs are still assholes but most of the passably experienced players are willing to make a team work. Especially if you can play captains mode, where only players who are decently serious about the game bother to queue (in my experience).
 
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