That's the marketing answer, not the detailed technical answer.
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Dell U2713H
- Thread starter Synomenon
- Start date
That's the marketing answer, not the detailed technical answer.
This. The input lag numbers at TFT are a joke because they do their testing at non native resolution - non native resolution always adds significant input lag.
I understand WHY they do it (to use a CRT as baseline), but it is not accurate. I don't know how they can fix this, or if they ever will since they're using a CRT as baseline, but always take 2560 IPS panel input lag adjustments with a grain of salt. User experiences are much more useful in this respect. The 2713HM is obviously not as responsive as a CRT but the input lag isn't an issue for gaming or movie watching - as a sidenote, when I attempt running a non native resolution for fast action games I can actually see ghosting during gameplay. That isn't the case at the proper resolution.
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CRTs max out at 2048x1536. All of the tests are questionable due to being run at non native resolution for any IPS panel higher than 1200P.
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D
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What did you mean by that? Who aren't running the IPS panel in their native resolutions?
And what about using a 1:1 scaling mode?
Dude, calm down. I am merely summarizing someone ELSE'S review. And no one is making mountains out of mole hills.
WhoopDeeDoo, I guess that means TFT Central must be mistaken, and that everyone's monitor is like yours. Forgive me if I get a little wary when expert reviewers make the observation that a monitor hums. It still counts as a con to me just for mentioning it. However, I'd like to read more reviews, both expert and non expert to find out how widespread the humming may be. It might be limited to only a few units.
And yet Simon still lists the uniformity issue as a con. So I included it in my summary.
Doesn't matter. IPS screens can have up to 1200:1 contrast ratio and 0.12cd/m2 black levels. The U2713H's numbers are mediocre, even for an IPS.
Again, the input lag was high enough that Simon felt to list it as a con. I don't game, so personally this doesn't have paramount importance to me. I would defer to NCX's superior knowledge of input numbers, though.
You sound a little bit like a Mac zealot here, trying to make excuses for lack of compaitbility and choice.
Sorry, but your criticisms of my post might have been better aimed at TFT Central. You've done nothing more than shoot the messenger. And your hysterical claims about my "FUD" is pretty silly.
Except, their review had a positive conclusion. You really sounded like were you trying to make a mountain of a molehill, to be honest. I'm not really sure where you got some of those data points.
There is no 1:1 scaling. All non native resolutions are pixel multiplied and blurred to fit full screen.
Got anything to back that up?
There is 1:1 scaling included
Yawn!
If you read the review the U2713HM measurements they had were almost identical to those made by Prad (which you seem to refer to as the be all and end all despite there being no official standard and every site using a different method). Anyway if we assume prad was bang on they had 22.6ms total display lag for the U2713HM with 15.5ms processing lag and 7.1ms accounted for by pixel response times. The same screen was measured by TFTcentral with 22.2ms total lag....hardly way off!
They've said in the U2713H review that the screen shows 25.3ms total lag in their tests, and go on to say that they expect signal processing to be the same as the U2713HM which would make sense. The extra 3.1ms on top of the U2713HM is probably related to the slight slower pixel response times, as also established in response time tests and the observations there
I seem to recall as well that some of your own input lag tests match theirs too so maybe yours are really wrong too?!
Input lag has nothing to do with ghosting. If you see ghosting with the naked eye when running at lower resolutions that isn't related to an impact to the input lag.
TFT's U2713HM numbers=luck/random. Many of the other values are ridiculous.
Pixel Response times and input lag are separate. A super slow A-MVA panel can have 45ms "total lag," with 1ms of input lag and 44ms for average pixel response times. It will feel delay free but have horrendous ghosting...the Samsung F2380/M/MX and first gen BenQ A-MVA panels have <4ms of input lag and really high pixel response times (25ms). Combining the values is really misleading and annoying since it has caused nothing but confusion. The numbers aren't everything either since displays with ultra low pixel response times can still overshoot which is why a subjective evaluation of both the input lag and perceived ghosting goes a long way.
http://www.overclock.net/image/id/3884649/width/900/height/900/flags/LL
The SMT Tool 2.51 should give oscilloscope-ish numbers.
Pixel Response times and input lag are separate. A super slow A-MVA panel can have 45ms "total lag," with 1ms of input lag and 44ms for average pixel response times. It will feel delay free but have horrendous ghosting...the Samsung F2380/M/MX and first gen BenQ A-MVA panels have <4ms of input lag and really high pixel response times (25ms). Combining the values is really misleading and annoying since it has caused nothing but confusion. The numbers aren't everything either since displays with ultra low pixel response times can still overshoot which is why a subjective evaluation of both the input lag and perceived ghosting goes a long way.
http://www.overclock.net/image/id/3884649/width/900/height/900/flags/LL
The SMT Tool 2.51 should give oscilloscope-ish numbers.
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agree re: your point about signal processing which is the factor which determines the feel of lag. The issue is that given SMTT (and other older inferior stopwatch methods) are based on a visual recording of what is happening on the screens you have to account for the overall lag in those cases. The point was though that the overall lag measurement for the U2713HM review and that measured using Prad's method were pretty much identical. They even then go on in the U2713H review to say
so the point about signal processing is pretty reasonable there and they've made an effort to include that element broken down to help identify the signal processing element for the reasons you've said.
so it's probably very unfair to just dismiss the input lag results off-hand given it's probably likely to be a very reasonable conclusion and an identification of the signal processing as best as possible at the moment
so the point about signal processing is pretty reasonable there and they've made an effort to include that element broken down to help identify the signal processing element for the reasons you've said.
so it's probably very unfair to just dismiss the input lag results off-hand given it's probably likely to be a very reasonable conclusion and an identification of the signal processing as best as possible at the moment
it's only been published for a few days but i remember reading that in there when it was first released so i don't think it's been changed
ps checking your review of the Asus PB278Q you had 17ms input lag (display lag or whatever we want to call it) as measured by SMTT 2. TFTCentral had 16.6ms so that's the same. not sure if you have others you've tested which they have as well, only going by the couple in your sig
ive been going through some of the reviews to get a comparison. some are off i agree but many are very close to be fair, within a few ms which is pretty reasonable
(TFTCentrals first vs Prad total display lag second)
BenQ EW2730V = 33ms vs 35.1ms
BenQ GW2750HM = 6ms vs 7ms
Dell S2440L = 5ms vs 7.5ms
Dell S2740L = 3.2ms vs 6.1ms
Dell U2713HM = 22.2ms vs 22.6ms
Eizo SX2762W = 12ms vs 12.7ms
Samsung S27B970D = 28ms vs 24.7ms
Then like i say, you had basically the same SMTT result for the Asus PB278Q of 16.6ms vs 17ms
maybe you need to start comparing the combined values! my point before was that SMTT takes into account the element of pixel response times that Prad split out in the review so you have to compare SMTT results with the total display lag (signal processing + element of pixel response times) if you are comparing them at all.
i agree the SMTT results don't show you the signal processing lag so if your point is simply that the U2713H won't have 25.3ms of "input lag" (in the signal processing sense) then i agree. but if you include the pixel response time element it's likely to be pretty accurate. but thats also why they've tried to give an idea of the signal processing lag within that i expect, to be as complete as possible and to give you an idea of what the lag feel is likely to be
i agree the SMTT results don't show you the signal processing lag so if your point is simply that the U2713H won't have 25.3ms of "input lag" (in the signal processing sense) then i agree. but if you include the pixel response time element it's likely to be pretty accurate. but thats also why they've tried to give an idea of the signal processing lag within that i expect, to be as complete as possible and to give you an idea of what the lag feel is likely to be
The U2713H has a 1:1 mode :S
Yes, he is just plain wrong on this. All LCD monitors I came across in the past 5-6 years had an option to disable scaling ie displaying 1:1 mode.
In Dell units it's usually called Wide Mode eg both the U2711 and U2410 I'm sitting in front of here at work have them in Menu, under Display Settings/Wide Mode, offering Fill, Aspect and 1:1 as settings.
You obviously didn't read the review's conclusion, either that or you work for Dell. You also obviously didn't read my post. Try again, this time look under the pro's column. How you came to the conclusion my post was negative and making mountains out of molehills is beyond me. TFT Central's conclusion was rather mixed, as was my summary. Simon thinks the U2713H is a worthy successor to the U2711 overall. So in that sense it is generally positive, as most of his reviews are.
Actually I share his sentiment, your post DID sound negative - pros and cons by themselves, without a full review or at least the conclusions always sound blown out of proportion.
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- Jul 25, 2012
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No observations on text ghosting while scrolling?
On the whole response time vs input lag, there is some truth to it.
Hypnotically speaking, lets say a 60Hz panel has (slowest pixel response time) of 16ms. There's another 60Hz but with slowest pixel response time of 8ms. Providing the both are identical except for their pixel RT, the lag would be equal.
Why? Because they have to wait for the refresh cycle, which occurs every 16.7ms. Some might say well...you would see the final image 8ms before the other so that provides an advantage. 8ms isn't long enough for the brain to register and you still have to wait for the next update to see the results of your chosen action.
If the pixel response time overflows to the next frame, then it could (emphasis on the word could) have an impact. Because the liquid crystals do not have a flat response time, some pixels may reach their destination well before others (similar to Airport flip chart displays).
This is why I prefer not to combine input lag and pixel as one. If the LCD has flat pixel response then it would make sense but it doesn't.
Hypnotically speaking, lets say a 60Hz panel has (slowest pixel response time) of 16ms. There's another 60Hz but with slowest pixel response time of 8ms. Providing the both are identical except for their pixel RT, the lag would be equal.
Why? Because they have to wait for the refresh cycle, which occurs every 16.7ms. Some might say well...you would see the final image 8ms before the other so that provides an advantage. 8ms isn't long enough for the brain to register and you still have to wait for the next update to see the results of your chosen action.
If the pixel response time overflows to the next frame, then it could (emphasis on the word could) have an impact. Because the liquid crystals do not have a flat response time, some pixels may reach their destination well before others (similar to Airport flip chart displays).
This is why I prefer not to combine input lag and pixel as one. If the LCD has flat pixel response then it would make sense but it doesn't.
It only sounds negative or blown out of proportion to those expecting a particular conclusion, or to those who have an emotional investment in how the product is perceived.
My summary listed 7 positives and 5 negatives. Yet your mind still managed to spin something negative out of it. Fascinating.
I understand that you are a man without any ability to make sense of context and its finer implications but hey, don't be angry at us, it's just you...
No, I know exactly what Simon at TFT said in his review, since I read it, and your overblown bullet points don't summarize either Simon's review, nor the monitor, fairly because context and comparison are absent. I'll just point to the so-called buzzing issue. No where does Simon call it a con. There's one brief paragraph about it tucked away, in which he wraps it up with the following:
Simon said:
Yea, what an issue. In fact, he was so concerned about it, it didn't even make the cons list at the end, nor even the conclusion summary preceding that. But it did manage to make your con list. I'm curious, do you own one?
Funny how you called me a Mac Zealot. Mac Zealots nitpick and obsess over small imperfections. Everyone who uses IPS these days knows what to expect when going in... luminance uniformity and latency among them.
Huh? Who's angry? Oh, I see what you did there. More spinning of the opposite. Dude, do yourself a favor, just let it go.
Ah yes, the "context" excuse. No I don't own one.
I'll repeat, and this time I guess I'll have to type more slowly:
Yes, the humming issue is on my own con list, I never said or implied otherwise (but I'm sure you'll find a way to spin it). I put it there because it has been an issue with a few previous Dell models as well as other monitors. I realize it wasn't a concern to Simon, (yet he still referred to it as an issue) but I'm sure it's a concern to people on this forum who've had this problem. Just the mere mention of hum or buzz is enough to make people wary. That's why I felt it deserved to be mentioned in my summary. That's not "FUD", that's just due dilligence. Nothing overblown about it.
I said you sounded like a Mac zealot because of the way you defended incompatibility and lack of choice (regarding the calibration device), not because of anything to do with nitpicking. Although you do seem to be doing a lot of that over my summary. Just curious, why are you so prickly and defensive about the slightest negative comments about this new model?
guys I just got my U2713H today. however I think something is wrong...
1)The color seems to change from light to dark, dark to light
2)One timei saw one window through another window like its a little transparent, then it goes away
3)One time i closed the window and it left like an imprint on my desktop where it was for a second (it just changed the color of my background where it was)
its really goofy, and I do not know how to explain it
1)The color seems to change from light to dark, dark to light
2)One timei saw one window through another window like its a little transparent, then it goes away
3)One time i closed the window and it left like an imprint on my desktop where it was for a second (it just changed the color of my background where it was)
its really goofy, and I do not know how to explain it
"Dim your monitor or put it into sleep mode with Dynamic dimming" (at bottom of Dell's product page)...?
Image retention: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdhIA8-UIRQ&feature=share&list=UUsYG3xd5uZFz9DagOzF9r-g ?
Today it's $850 w/ free shipping again: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/...~15116334&nf=233672~0~15116334&s=dhs&~ck=anav