Dell U2412M

Kuf said:
Is this downgrade from the U2410?
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Looks that way

U2412M 6 bit e-IPS panel w/ LED backlighting, standard gamut ~82%

u2410 was 8 bit H-IPS w/ CCFL backlighting, wide gamut.


With 6bit panel, dithering is a real possibility.
 
Freezebyte said:
Looks that way

U2412M 6 bit e-IPS panel w/ LED backlighting, standard gamut ~82%

u2410 was 8 bit H-IPS w/ CCFL backlighting, wide gamut.


With 6bit panel, dithering is a real possibility.
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Standard gamut is an upgrade for some people over the u2410, not everyone wants a wide gamut display, a lot of people should keep that in mind when suggesting one is "better" than the other. I personally do not want a wide gamut display because the support for it simply isn't there yet, so it causes more trouble than it's worth for the most part.
 
RadXge said:
LED? Full array or edge-lit?
Because, you know, edge-lit sucks big time!
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There are no full array LCD monitors.

But it is amazing how the misinformed opinions swing back and forth.

When LED first came on the scene, everyone was claiming that LED was so much better than CCFL. That somehow it increase contrast, improve black levels and fix backlight bleed.

None of which made any sense because in the end it is just a light source, just like CCFL.

Now when none of that turned out to be true we get opinion swinging the other way that now somehow LEDs cause more backlight bleed etc...

Which again makes no sense because LEDs are just a light source, just like CCFL and great many CCFL designs are also edge lit, but people just assume it is only LEDs that are edge lit.

Bottom line as always, LEDs are just a light source, there will be no immediate difference between LED/CCFL with regards to bleeding, contrast, black levels. Bleeding depends on quality of light spreaders/construction, contrast/black depend on the panel itself.

So Edge Lit/CCFL/LED make little difference to the actual outcome. It is all about execution and quality of design/materials.
 
The other issue with the U2410/U2711/U3011 monitors is that, while they have sRGB emulation and Adobe RGB modes calibrated from the factory they are not immune to having color temp issues in sRGB/AdobeRGB, and this cannot be adjusted via RGB settings in the screen. So that means profile/gamma adjustment/color temp software calibration.

I know the u2711 I have tried is 5980K color temp according to Blue Eye and BasicColor and my i1D2 SVII sensor, and while the Delta E94 is lower than 5 on all colors, I'm seeing a slightly elevated gamut which is still wider and more saturated than my LCD2490wuxi2 which is almost exactly sRGB according to Blue Eye Pro.

To me until Windows is fully color managed, a wide gamut display is more of a frustration unless someone requires it.

Needless to say I'm looking forward to U2412M reviews regardless of 6-bit+FRC or full 8-bit. I think the best competitor for comparison would be the HP ZR24W not the U2410.


steal said:
Standard gamut is an upgrade for some people over the u2410, not everyone wants a wide gamut display, a lot of people should keep that in mind when suggesting one is "better" than the other. I personally do not want a wide gamut display because the support for it simply isn't there yet, so it causes more trouble than it's worth for the most part.
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I"m not anal about color accurasy, I just want a good quality 8 bit IPS panel to last me years down the road and I think i'll just do the U2410 as its gotten its bugs and quality issues worked out wereas the U2412 is just starting its life cycle and thus, bug/quality cycle.
 
Snowdog said:
There are no full array LCD monitors.

But it is amazing how the misinformed opinions swing back and forth.

When LED first came on the scene, everyone was claiming that LED was so much better than CCFL. That somehow it increase contrast, improve black levels and fix backlight bleed.

None of which made any sense because in the end it is just a light source, just like CCFL.

Now when none of that turned out to be true we get opinion swinging the other way that now somehow LEDs cause more backlight bleed etc...

Which again makes no sense because LEDs are just a light source, just like CCFL and great many CCFL designs are also edge lit, but people just assume it is only LEDs that are edge lit.

Bottom line as always, LEDs are just a light source, there will be no immediate difference between LED/CCFL with regards to bleeding, contrast, black levels. Bleeding depends on quality of light spreaders/construction, contrast/black depend on the panel itself.

So Edge Lit/CCFL/LED make little difference to the actual outcome. It is all about execution and quality of design/materials.
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orly?
RGB LED Backlighting - This type of backlighting is based on RGB triads, each including one red, one green and one blue LED. RGB LED backlighting ensures an excellent colour gamut and very pure colours, but is only really used in professional-grade displays such as the Samsung XL20, XL24, XL30 screens, and modern professional models like the HP DreamColor LP2480zx. This type of backlighting is only used in this sector due to its high cost and it is not economical to produce at the moment.
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At its current price point I bet the U2412 is E-IPS 6 bit. But who knows I can't wait to see some reviews from websites...
 
zod96 said:
At its current price point I bet the U2412 is E-IPS 6 bit. But who knows I can't wait to see some reviews from websites...
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It is, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. If it turns out to be a 1920x1200 version of the U2311H, it's going to be a winner. Hopefully they don't screw up the panel uniformity.
 
What I don't understand about this whole E-IPS 6 bit plus dithering is. When people wanted to buy TN panels all the experts here and on other forums all said "Oh my God stay away from that 6 bit dithering crap colors are horrible on 6 bit" now that people have found out the E-IPS is actually 6 bit, the same people are now saying "Oh wait 6 bit isn't that bad" that is what confuses me :)
 
zod96 said:
What I don't understand about this whole E-IPS 6 bit plus dithering is. When people wanted to buy TN panels all the experts here and on other forums all said "Oh my God stay away from that 6 bit dithering crap colors are horrible on 6 bit" now that people have found out the E-IPS is actually 6 bit, the same people are now saying "Oh wait 6 bit isn't that bad" that is what confuses me :)
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Who are these "same people" that have given contradicting messages?
 
zod96 said:
What I don't understand about this whole E-IPS 6 bit plus dithering is. When people wanted to buy TN panels all the experts here and on other forums all said "Oh my God stay away from that 6 bit dithering crap colors are horrible on 6 bit" now that people have found out the E-IPS is actually 6 bit, the same people are now saying "Oh wait 6 bit isn't that bad" that is what confuses me :)
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They weren't experts, they were no nothings repeating wives tales.

AFAIK there were actual 6 bit only monitors more than a decade back, and they did indeed suck. But modern 6 bit + 2bit FRC are pretty much indistinguishable from normal 8 bit depth. 6bit + 2bit is still 8 bit.

TN sucks, but it is because of the terrible viewing angles more than anything else.

Here is what I said back in 2008 about "6 bit" TN color when reviewing my new NEC 2490:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032929442&postcount=4
The cheap uncalibrated TN seems to match the calibrated NEC IPS pro screen for color!

Yes thats right. The "It's only 6bits" crowd don't have a clue what they are talking about. Normally when people drop a big load of cash on something like this they will try to justify it, but color IMO is not a justification. I poured through my collection of wallpapers and and test images and the that uncalibrated TN matched every tonal nuance of the expensive IPS on shot after shot. If TN has horrible color, then so does calibrated NEC 90 series IPS monitors. Or it could be that the "horrible 6 bit color" crowd are just blowing smoke.
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Digital Viper-X- said:
orly?
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I'm not saying that either claim is true/untrue, but you do realize that

"That somehow it increase contrast, improve black levels and fix backlight bleed."

is not the same thing as

"RGB LED backlighting ensures an excellent colour gamut and very pure colours,"

...right?
 
I agree that it comes down to the execution of this monitor, but the most interesting bit what appear to be cost cutting measures with the e-IPS panel. If this is a decent 1920x1200 IPS monitor that regularly sells for under $399 (after prices settle, and with frequent Dell promotions) that will be a nice alternative to the ZR24.
 
Still waiting for review, at least one should be popping up by now, come on.
 
I'm hoping this thing can go higher than 60Hz. I'm pretty sure people have managed to get 70Hz+ on the U2311H over DisplayPort.
 
Snowdog said:
Did you have a point? because it certainly wasn't obvious.
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drleospaceman said:
I'm not saying that either claim is true/untrue, but you do realize that

"That somehow it increase contrast, improve black levels and fix backlight bleed."

is not the same thing as

"RGB LED backlighting ensures an excellent colour gamut and very pure colours,"

...right?
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RGB LED back light is not "edge" lit. which he said doesn't exist.

he's talking about full-array blah blah blah not existing :p but I'm going to assume he was talking about having actual back-lit LED, where you get a huge benefit over edge lit-anything.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
RGB LED back light is not "edge" lit. which he said doesn't exist.

he's talking about full-array blah blah blah not existing :p but I'm going to assume he was talking about having actual back-lit LED, where you get a huge benefit over edge lit-anything.
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I didn't say RGB LED is the same as edge-lit LED. I was trying to point out the obvious that contrast/backlight bleed is not the same thing as color accuracy. Snowdog said everyone claimed LED in general would increase contrast ratios & reduce backlight bleed, and DigitalViper-X replied with a wikipedia quote of how a specific implementation can increase color accuracy; an irrelevant reply/claim.
 
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drleospaceman said:
I didn't say RGB LED is the same as edge-lit LED. I was trying to point out the obvious that contrast/backlight bleed is not the same thing as color accuracy. Snowdog said everyone claimed LED in general would increase contrast ratios & reduce backlight bleed, and DigitalViper-X replied with a wikipedia quote of how a specific implementation can increase color accuracy; an irrelevant reply/claim.
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actually, RGB-LED can increase contrast ratio as it can produce nearly black if not totaly-black / off crytals with localized dimming. My post had nothing to do with colour accuracy, had to do with the existing of RGB LED :p. Having the "black" light not on the edge also eliminates backlight bleed.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
actually, RGB-LED can increase contrast ratio as it can produce nearly black if not totaly-black / off crytals with localized dimming. My post had nothing to do with colour accuracy, had to do with the existing of RGB LED :p. Having the "black" light not on the edge also eliminates backlight bleed.
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Localized dimming sucks.

It produces haloing and "glow" around lit objects, and it also produces black crush and dark color banding.

Until you have one LED PER PIXEL localized dimming will always suck.

Only OLED can give proper blacks and it still has a lot of other faults like motion blur and burn in, if my Samsung Galaxy S is any indication.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
My post had nothing to do with colour accuracy, had to do with the existing of RGB LED :p.
Click to expand...
RGB LED Backlighting - This type of backlighting is based on RGB triads, each including one red, one green and one blue LED. RGB LED backlighting ensures an excellent colour gamut and very pure colours, but is only really used in professional-grade displays such as the Samsung XL20, XL24, XL30 screens, and modern professional models like the HP DreamColor LP2480zx. This type of backlighting is only used in this sector due to its high cost and it is not economical to produce at the moment.
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orly?

Digital Viper-X- said:
actually, RGB-LED can increase contrast ratio as it can produce nearly black if not totaly-black / off crytals with localized dimming.
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It also crushes blacks and creates inherent blooming. Not to mention that RGB-LED is not the same thing as local dimming and having one does not necessarily mean you have the other. E.g. There are Dell laptops with RGB-LED's that do not have local dimming.
 
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Digital Viper-X- said:
actually, RGB-LED can increase contrast ratio as it can produce nearly black if not totaly-black / off crytals with localized dimming. My post had nothing to do with colour accuracy, had to do with the existing of RGB LED :p. Having the "black" light not on the edge also eliminates backlight bleed.
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RGB LEDs don't mean a full array capable of local dimming. Actually RGB LED has nothing to do with local dimming. You can have full local dimming arrays of W-LEDs or RGB-LEDs. This is why I asked you clarify your point before, because RGB-LEDs had nothing to do with anything I wrote.

There has NEVER been a full local dimming array of white or RGB-LED in a computer monitor and there likely never will be because of halo artifacts that would be much more evident in a computer monitor.
 
drleospaceman said:
orly?

It also crushes blacks and creates inherent blooming. Not to mention that RGB-LED is not the same thing as local dimming and having one does not necessarily mean you have the other. E.g. There are Dell laptops with RGB-LED's that do not have local dimming.
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if you bothered to read his post that I quoted maybe you wouldn't have such a hard time understanding?

Snowdog said:
RGB LEDs don't mean a full array capable of local dimming. Actually RGB LED has nothing to do with local dimming. You can have full local dimming arrays of W-LEDs or RGB-LEDs. This is why I asked you clarify your point before, because RGB-LEDs had nothing to do with anything I wrote.

There has NEVER been a full local dimming array of white or RGB-LED in a computer monitor and there likely never will be because of halo artifacts that would be much more evident in a computer monitor.
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exactly how do you achieve local dimming with w-leds? it's not possible. not locally anyway.

seriously, you're all being a bunch of internet tough guys all of a sudden from 1 comment :p I was simply proving that something like that exists, and if you meant to say "OLED" then say oled, because full-array lcds don't exist, the LCD is not the light source, it's the LED or CCFL that is the light source, with OLED, there is no "LCD" it's entirely made up of.... oh el ee dees.
 
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cesium666 said:
:confused: lets say you have a rectangle with 200 equally spaced LEDs. You dim one of those 200. ta da!
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? W-leds are generaly edge lit, you don't have 200 :) you have 2 or 4, on the edges of the panel :confused:

oops, my on the w-leds, that's just white, not edge :p and can still be used in led matrix back lighting.

Anyways again. my point was that full array lcds don't exit, and that full array LEDs do, at least in marketing speak.

I think we've derailed this thread enough. all from a single orly ~.~
 
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So are there any reviews yet? I'm interested in making this monitor my satellites in a 5x1 setup.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
? W-leds are generaly edge lit, you don't have 200 :) you have 2 or 4, on the edges of the panel :confused:

oops, my on the w-leds, that's just white, not edge :p and can still be used in led matrix back lighting.

Anyways again. my point was that full array lcds don't exit, and that full array LEDs do, at least in marketing speak.

I think we've derailed this thread enough. all from a single orly ~.~
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The Samsung and LG LED panels from last year (like the LG 8500/9500 series) had w-led and local dimming. They had something like 192 - 196 zones.

I'm not sure if this was 192 - 196 LEDs per se, ie. one PER zone.

Either way, let's get the show back on the road for the U2412m.

Mine is coming this week, behind high hopes and crossed fingers. I'll be the guinea pig. This is my first LED backlit IPS monitor, and I'll do my best to post as much info as possible including potentially higher refresh rates over DVI, input lag, contrast ratio, gamut etc....

My wife just twisted my arm in a UFC-style kimura and I'll be selling some screens now. :D

Hopefully this will make a good buddy to my LCD2490WUXi2.
 
10e said:
Mine is coming this week, behind high hopes and crossed fingers. I'll be the guinea pig. This is my first LED backlit IPS monitor, and I'll do my best to post as much info as possible including potentially higher refresh rates over DVI, input lag, contrast ratio, gamut etc....
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Excellent. Your input would be better than many lesser review sites.
 
It's arrived at work. If I have time to pick it up before my softball game, I will. If not I'll go after the game tonight and hopefully get down to business barring defects or other issues.
 
Subscribed. I'm also really interested to see how well this monitor does. I currently have a 2407 but I would like to pick up 2 of these to do a nice eyefinity setup if possible.
 
10e said:
It's arrived at work. If I have time to pick it up before my softball game, I will. If not I'll go after the game tonight and hopefully get down to business barring defects or other issues.
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We are looking forward to your input, upload some pics for us if you don't mind.
 
Considering pouncing on 3 of these for the middle of a 5x1P if they're any good.. and when they actually become available in Europe. Looking forward to your feedback, 10e. :)
 
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