Dell U2410

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Xcelerate, Aug 6, 2009.

  1. Jodiuh

    Jodiuh [H]ardness Supreme

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    That's how I played through Batman, much better, even w/ the dithering on his cape. FWIW, gaming mode did seem a touch snappier w/ the mouse.
     
  2. PatK

    PatK Limp Gawd

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    You can notice the grainy appearance in dark images too. Basically it's there all the time, that test just highlights the problem. How much you notice depends on the individual I guess..

    The issue is already confirmed by Dell.. There is apparently a new firmware revision in the works to fix the problem. It will require Dell replacing your U2410.

    Keep in mind each screen is different, and graphics cards can affect things too etc. For saturation I have red 40, green 47, and Magenta 43. For hue you can't really set anything above 52 or below 48 without introducing dithered banding into images, and so the adjustments can only be small ones. Gain and Offset settings are highly dependent on your own U2410. I've used enough U2410's to know that Custom Mode is where it's revealed most clearly that not all U2410 panels are created equal. If you've got a good panel you can leave the gain settings very high (red 99, green 97, blue 100 in my case) and have very good white. Likewise the default Offsets should be ok, although you'll generally want to decrease the green value for more accurate greys. If you have panel with an obvious tint then this won't be the case.

    Even with such small tweaks my gamma levels for R,G, and B are just below 2.1. However, as I said, all U2410's are definitely not the same in this regard and, if you're going to use a device (rather than your eyes) to calibrate you are likely to be better off in Standard mode.

    It depends on what you regard as important, since sRGB mode effectively chops off the bottom 5 RGB values and tends to reduce the contrast (how much it does this also depends on your individual screen). A better way to think about Custom Mode is more like that of an Adobe style mode without the dither or wide gamut problems (once you dial down the saturation) and with a bit more contrast. If you're looking for sRGB without the dither then it's not going to provide that. If you demand more than "fairly accurate" colours then you're probably better off using a hardware calibration device in standard mode, as I said.

    Since the range of tweaks is somewhat limited under Custom Mode you're more dependent on how good the panel on your U2410 is. Some panels are visibly brighter than others, some have more tendency towards warmer or cooler temperatures etc.
     
  3. /337

    /337 Limp Gawd

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    Are there any deals on this screen right now?
     
  4. maingon

    maingon n00b

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    I am still debating between this monitor and the HP LP2475w, but it seems like everyone seems like alot of people are having issues with this monitor including black dithering, Should I just go for the HP LP2475w?
     
  5. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

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    i've just been trying the srgb mode vs standard looking with some pictures and i notice the image seems darker and detail is lost in dark pieces

    anyone notice this too?

    i have brightness at 30% and contrast at 50%
     
  6. menx

    menx n00b

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    okay! so i just got back from a weeklong vaca in madrid...where i had read the first 42 pages straight up..FML! just got done reading the 3 new pages...on my brand new U2410. This thread had me really anxious to test my panel.

    0 pixel problems.
    and i don't think i have the tinting problem either, but i'm not sure how to best test for this. i don't see any backlight bleed either.

    My panel was also shipped from TN and made in China like niknakk's.

    I'll be happy to test/take pics (prosumer DSLR) if someone gives this noob step by step instructions on what they'd like me to test and "pix or it didn't happen".
     
  7. valent

    valent n00b

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    I just got 2x 2408wfp few months ago before U2410 released, wonder if its worth the upgrade since theres issues on tint/black dithering/random sorts
     
  8. webbyboy

    webbyboy n00b

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    Just exchanged for the 4th monitor, this time the LCD date of manufacture is during Jun 2009, should be one of the earliest batch and the tinting is the worst. Now i don't know whether to refund and wait for new rev or exchange another one till i get a "problem" free U2410.
     
  9. Bacano

    Bacano n00b

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    Why is there so many problems for such an expensive monitor?.. hmm I think I'll go with a TN panel 1920x1200!
     
  10. jerry2

    jerry2 n00b

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    Anybody notice that when the monitor is power on in the morning that the picture is darker and the whites are also darker in sRGB mode, like if the monitor need to warm up to become it's full capacity. Is that possible?
     
  11. Kuro

    Kuro n00b

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    As a LCD with IPS panel, it is considered cheap! Eizo SX2462W is 3 times the price.

    I think people who buys IPS LCD are more critical than the average user that is happy with just a TN panel.
     
  12. Kuro

    Kuro n00b

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    Actually, Dell cannot really fixed the issue via a firmware. Maybe they can improve it, but not fix it. I consulted a friend who works for HP display division. Here is what he had to say:

    ===
    One can shrink the color gamut of the display by using color correction. Bits are lost in two ways. If one covers a wide gamut with 8 bit color, shrinking the wide gamut to sRGB will reduce the number of active bits in sRGB. Also the intensity of Adobe RGB color is stronger than sRGB. In eight bit color there are only 256 steps per color. If we apply the 256 steps to Adobe RGB red, then the brightest sRGB red after color correction will be 192. 64 steps are lost!
    ===

    The Dell U2410 has to perform dithering when sRGB or Adobe RGB modes are selected as it needs to display 256 shades within a "less than 8-bit" color space. It is performing the dithering whether it is dark patches or bright patches.

    The cure to this wide gamut problem is to get a 10-bit panel so you still have about 8-bit for reduced sRGB color space. HP Dreamcolor LCD is such a monitor. But it is an expenisve solution.

    The other solution is to use Mac OS X as it has full color management. If we stay in Windows, then it would be better to get a LCD with non-wide gamut panel, so it will not need to do any dithering.

    This also explains why input lag is higher in sRGB / Adobe RGB modes, as the LCD needs to process the dithering and it takes times to do so.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  13. PatK

    PatK Limp Gawd

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    Yes - everyone has this. A firmware update 'may' improve sRGB mode.

    Even with these issues, IMO, the U2410 is the better screen..

    That's not only possible, it's normal. The back light needs some time to warm up to full brightness. This will change with LED back lighting, as it doesn't require the same period to warm up.
     
  14. PatK

    PatK Limp Gawd

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    I'm hoping it's not correct, in terms of only minimizing the issue. Although (having checked) the U2410 uses the LM240WU4-SLB1 panel which, as far as I can tell, is indeed a 10 bit panel as Chartal points out, although it may reach the 10 bit figure through dithering. The fact that the LUT is 12 bit should also help. However, whatever's going on, it's related to the LUT in some way I think.

    As I said, this isn't like an ordinary dithering issue. That's why I told you to move the Lagom squares around - the pattern stays static. If it were dithering the actual image then you'd expect the dither would follow the squares around the screen. Instead it's a completely static pattern. It resembles more like the LUT actually switching off certain values in a static dithered pattern itself.

    Anyone reading this understand LUT's enough to care to explain what is actually happening in a more detailed way?..
    Well, the lag is also high in standard, multimedia, and custom modes where no dither is present. Although it's curious to me how Game mode, which supposedly bypasses most internal processing to minimize lag, is the mode which allows dynamic contrast. Perhaps that's something related to the panels originally being developed mainly for TV's..
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  15. Chartal

    Chartal [H]Lite

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    The Dell U2410 is a 10-bit panel (LG LM240WU4-SLB1) with 12-bit processing (LUT).

    I have question, is it possible to sent a 10-bit signal with DisplayPort.
     
  16. menx

    menx n00b

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    hrm. taken with a ultra-wide lens, about 25" away from the monitor....+85 saturation in lightroom...i see some pink...

    how bad is the tinting in your opinions?
    [​IMG]

    edit - using photoshop to +89 saturation = omg...i think i'll have to return this. damnit.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  17. Kuro

    Kuro n00b

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    Can you give us the reference showing this is a 10-bit panel? According to tftcentral, it is listed as 8-bit panel.

    Eizo SX2462W and CG243W can accept a 10-bit per color signal with DisplayPort. Dell does not say whether it can or cannot.

    The problem will not be hardware, but software. Which software allows you to view or edit pix in 10-bit? And where are the10-bit pix? Certainly not on any websites...
     
  18. 10e

    10e 2[H]4U

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    Menx if you have to turn up the saturation by +85 in LR to see that small amount of tinting, I don't think the monitor should qualify as an RMA unless you actually see this amount of tinting on your own, with YOUR eyes. That's a test pretty much any screen would fail.

    Don't look to make defects, or you will never be happy with it.
     
  19. fss69

    fss69 Gawd

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    Why not just buy a refurbished 2490wuxi?Aren't they just a hundred or two more? It'd probably be worth it for a superior monitor without all these headaches.
     
  20. _HU_

    _HU_ [H]Lite

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    It has other ones, like permanent banding with middle gray backgrounds ( see the picture => http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6729/screenflutterq4lv.gif ) . I have the 2490 and other users can confirm this issue too. For more information, read the last posts of this thread.
     
  21. menx

    menx n00b

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    yea, i'll keep it for now...see if it really bugs me or not during the 20 days..

    but why is the tinting so much more pronounced when using photoshop vs LR?
     
  22. webbyboy

    webbyboy n00b

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    photoshop basically is just to show the tinting more obvious

    Im gonna get my 5th monitor and probably the last monitor that i will exchange before sending it back. :(
     
  23. 10e

    10e 2[H]4U

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    Is there obvious tinting without changing the saturation/color balance of the picture? It may be that LightRoom and Photoshop have different severity of saturation change per step.

    Like I said, if you don't see tinting without changing the settings don't worry about it. The green to red tint is only a big deal if you notice it in regular use. Also, different people have different perceptions of color, so someone else may notice it a lot less or more than you when used on a regular basis.
     
  24. Kuro

    Kuro n00b

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    That's probably wishful thinking. Eizo also uses LM240WU4 in their SX2462W and CG243W LCDs. I've contacted Eizo and they told me it is an 8-bit IPS panel.
     
  25. menx

    menx n00b

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    Re: LR vs PS - it's the only explanation i can think of, though it would be silly for adobe to use different change steps between the two.

    I notice the pink cast in the upper right sometimes....gonna have to give it more time to see if it really bugs me or not. what i'm a little more worried about right now are the slanted vertical lines on the left side of the monitor...what's that about?
     
  26. webbyboy

    webbyboy n00b

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    Some info about this panel

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  27. webbyboy

    webbyboy n00b

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  28. PatK

    PatK Limp Gawd

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    Hehe. That's a moire pattern generated because of the way the camera is focusing on the pixels. It's nothing to do with the screen. As said, boosting saturation is going to show up minor flaws on every screen. In my case the boost simply reinforced what I was seeing with my own eyes. Yours looks like a more mild case of tint.

    A good test is to ask someone else if they spot the issue without telling them what it is. In my case others could also spot the different tints, although some people have an easier time ignoring it than others, and so the "severity" of the problem is, to some extent, down to the individual. Like I said, a good way to tell if you'll be bothered by it is to know how much things like the colour shift on TN panels bothers you. Most people can live with TN panels fine, and I think many of them could probably live with mild to moderate tints fine, and some may even report their screen doesn't suffer from these issues, even though it actually does :)
     
  29. PatK

    PatK Limp Gawd

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    Ok, then it is an 8-Bit panel, and it uses A-FRC dithering to achieve 10 bits. This makes it a bit more questionable if they can actually fully "fix" the issues in sRGB/Adobe mode. But it'd be nice if anyone reading this, who has a better understanding about LUTs and implementing colour spaces like sRGB on wide gamut screens, could comment :)
     
  30. webbyboy

    webbyboy n00b

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    Maybe someone can explain what caused these tinting? bad panel QC? or it's something else? Can it be fixed with firmware?
     
  31. Denis

    Denis n00b

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    Just a remark. I understand that the dithering has to be performed because the wide gamut panel doesn't have 8 bit per channel in sRGB mode (some bits are in the wider gamut).

    If the panel is indeed 8 bit per channel, there is no way it can display sRGB correctly. Meaning that, even in a perfectly color managed environment, the panel still lacks the necessary bits to display sRGB correctly. So if I am not mistaking, your suggestion to use Mac OS X won't solve the issue. Every piece of software would need to apply a "trick", such as dithering.

    This issue is also related to banding being slightly more prominent on a wide gamut screen, than on a sRGB-panel.

    I would really like to know what Dell thinks about this issue. The sRBG mode is what makes the U2410 very interesting to me.
     
  32. Kuro

    Kuro n00b

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    The latest info on this panel is that it is 8-bit + A-FRC so it can mimic a 10-bit panel via dithering. This is the same panel used by Eizo CG243W and SX2462W, both claim to be able to display 10-bit color via Display Port.

    Even it may not display sRGB correctly, it should be quite close. The only problem is Dell uses static dithering when dark patches are displayed, which is more obvious in gaming.

    No, the banding issue is due to the fact that you only have 256 shades on 8-bit input and with a wide gamut display, the color between each displayable shade is further apart.

    An interesting note is that I use Lagom's gradient test screen, and in Standard mode, the U2410 displays a smoother gradient than sRGB mode. I'd have thought that banding is more apparent in Standard (wide gamut) mode. I guess the dithering in sRGB must be doing a not so great job...
     
  33. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I wonder how the sRGB mode is in the Eizos.
     
  34. Mastakill

    Mastakill Limp Gawd

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    wow

    if everyone has this, then I wonder how tft central could actually say that srgb works...
    loosing this much detail (even i noticed it :p) in dark pieces, isn't really an option for anyone i think....
     
  35. Kuro

    Kuro n00b

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    I went to an Apple store and looked at their LCDs. Unfortunately, they don't have the LED Cinema Display, so I looked at the LCD on the Alu 24" iMac.

    Upon looking at the Lagom gradient page, it is extremely smooth. Virtually no banding at all.

    Now I'm looking at my U2410. In sRGB mode, there is noticeable banding, but not severe. Even in Standard mode, some banding is still noticeable. It is definitely not as smooth compared to the LCD on 24" iMac:mad:

    Also, there is no green/pink tint on the iMac LCD.

    I think I'm going to return the U2140 for a refund...
     
  36. menx

    menx n00b

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    yea, but the ACD is also $900 before tax.
     
  37. jenneth

    jenneth [H]Lite

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    That's like saying the NEC 2490WUXi is better than the U2410 without taking into the consideration that the 2490WUXi has a street price of $1k vs <$500 for the U2410.
     
  38. Shoop

    Shoop Limp Gawd

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    Could someone tell me how far you can lower the U2410 on its stand. How far from the bottom of the bezel to the top of your desk after it is the monitor is adjusted to its lowest position on the stand. I'm looking for a monitor that can be adjusted very low.

    thanks
     
  39. SlayeRBoxeR

    SlayeRBoxeR n00b

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    Due to your question, I have tesed my brand new EIZO CG243W.

    I switched this montor to its SRGB mode and you can see the colour gamut report, and also the colour accuracy report as well.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Please note CG243W is a wide gamut monitor and this data is obtained from its SRGB mode.

    Any questions, please ask.

    Regards

    Chum
     
  40. SlayeRBoxeR

    SlayeRBoxeR n00b

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    Hi m8.

    Don't be mislead by TFT Central, they've done really a lot of mistakes from their reviews so far. Not serious, but loads of slight mistakes.

    In terms of U2410, there is no 12 bit LUT at all!

    12 bit colour prceccing is not 12 bit LUT (Look up table)! Colour proceccing and LUT/Gamma corrections are different.

    For example, regarding to NEC LCD2690WUXi, it has 16 bit internal colour processing, 12 bit LUT (look up table) and the panel can show 16.67 (8 bit panel) millions coloiurs which is from 64 billion colours (12 bit LUT).

    Regards

    Chum